5e Monk, Four Elements. Weak? Overpowered? Just Right?

[CrimsonRaven]

Is it me or the monk of the four elements, despite all of its flavour awsomness, looks rather weaker than the rest of the classe's choices?

Its ki consumption seems too heavy, and its action economy bad. At least compated to 'Monk of the Shadow' or 'Monk of the Open Palm'. Not to mention its versatility is low, as it knows very few "spells"

Now, mind you, I am not trying to create an optimal maxed 100% character, but still I would like my character to feel relevant and powerful. At least not significantly weaker than the rest of the party And with this way, I feel like I am being cheated out of my resources... Am I being paranoid? Or do I have some basis to feel that way? way of the Four Elements, just feels like a bright idea, that has unfortunately been poorly designed.

Your input will be greatly appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

[Zonugal]

Yes, the prevailing opinion is that it is a weak subclass for a variety of reasons (you named some!).

If a player was interested in attaining a character similar to a Monk of the Four Winds I'd just suggest they multi-class into a spellcaster.

[Specter]

It's weak, but not as weak as some will say.

The main strenghts of the archetype are giving the Monk a way around flying/out of reach enemies, and ways to be effective against hordes.

[Ellisthion]

They don't get enough powers and the ki cost is too high.

There are some revised homebrew ones attempting to rectify this. This one in particular looks quite promising, although I haven't seen it in actual play:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view?usp=sharing

Reddit thread discussing it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/35yn4u/way_of_the_four_elements_remastered_a/

To quote the 'big changes' mentioned in that Reddit thread:




Thematic elemental cantrips learned over time, granting access to flavorful non-combative abilities that do not require spending ki ("ribbons")
Double the elemental disciplines learned; two at each milestone instead of just one, adding much-needed versatility
The ki cost of a spell is equal to its spell level, just like Way of Shadow
Brand new elemental disciplines to choose from, including spells from the Elemental Evil: Player’s Companion



The 'change' about ki points is right on point. The PHB version uses (spell level + 1) as the ki cost for spells (eg: 2 ki for Thunderwave), whilst Shadow gets a few 2nd level spells all for 2 ki points each. Plus the Elements monk gets almost nothing that doesn't cost ki.

[Desteplo]

If you want a monk who is a spell caster. Look elsewhere or use ritual caster and magic intiate to pick up that slack

-way of 4 element is great! Just advertises different. Way of 4 element sounds like the avatar, or something similar

-what it is mechanically: a burst or ranged
-no one else could (although using all your Ki) attack 4 times doing in a total of 76d10 + dexX4
-having a monk who can fly and/or fireball

-they’re very much the Sorcerer of the martial caster types

-they do a few things really well (compared to each other)
-in this case AOE, Nova and range

[Tanarii]

The 'change' about ki points is right on point. The PHB version uses (spell level + 1) as the ki cost for spells (eg: 2 ki for Thunderwave), whilst Shadow gets a few 2nd level spells all for 2 ki points each. Plus the Elements monk gets almost nothing that doesn't cost ki.
No, it's not. The price for spells in Ki points is spot on the money for a 1/3 caster, assuming the 4ele monk uses 1/2 it's available Ki for Elemental Disciplines.

[Desteplo]

It’s actually a half caster warlock. They get access to 5th level spells and if using half the Ki equals to 2 maxed out spells (resets on short rest)

-unbroken fist, fire snakes, water whip aren’t spells so they aren’t bound by the Ki point limit table

[XmonkTad]

-no one else could (although using all your Ki) attack 4 times doing in a total of 76d10 + dexX4


Could you break this one down a bit? Not sure how we get to 76d10. That sounds like an awful lot of nova.

[Tanarii]

It’s actually a half caster warlock.
It's a 1/3 caster warlock, assuming 1/2 their Ki is used for "spells".

[Desteplo]

Could you break this one down a bit? Not sure how we get to 76d10. That sounds like an awful lot of nova.

Fire snakes: 2 Ki
1 for range
1+ Adds d10 Fire per hit per Ki
1 Flurry allows for 4 attacks

So the set up Ki equals 2 (for flurry and reach) the rest is d10s

Leftover Ki
-18x4, 72d10
-4 attacks is 4d10 + 5x4(dex mod)

Fire snakes isn’t a spell so it’s not bound by the spell Ki limit table

-things that cast fireball or thunderwave are casting spells so they are limited

[Citan]

Is it me or the monk of the four elements, despite all of its flavour awsomness, looks rather weaker than the rest of the classe's choices?

Its ki consumption seems too heavy, and its action economy bad. At least compated to 'Monk of the Shadow' or 'Monk of the Open Palm'. Not to mention its versatility is low, as it knows very few "spells"

Now, mind you, I am not trying to create an optimal maxed 100% character, but still I would like my character to feel relevant and powerful. At least not significantly weaker than the rest of the party And with this way, I feel like I am being cheated out of my resources... Am I being paranoid? Or do I have some basis to feel that way? way of the Four Elements, just feels like a bright idea, that has unfortunately been poorly designed.

Your input will be greatly appreciated! :smallbiggrin:
Hi!

It's not weak, it just looks that by optimizers that like candy and the dollar of it.
Indeed the ratio Ki consumption vs total benefit makes it a pain at low level, if you make theorycraft comparisons with Open Hand (only 1 ki cost for 2 attempts at rider) and Shadow (1mn or 1hour long spells for 2 Ki).
Because of that and the fact that...
- There is usually *someone* that is full caster with blasting ability in any given group and...
- Most people play between levels 3 and 9...
4e looks rather lackluster compared to others at first glance.

When you take it for what it is though, it's pretty good in and out of itself, barring the small number of Discipline known (I honestly don't understand why: if they just wanted to avoid all 4e Monks to look like each other, they just needed to add more Disciplines).

- You get a very cost-efficient AOE (Thunderwave, Burning Hands, Shatter, Cone of Cold) to hurt groups of melee enemies, which are usually a threat for Monk. Compared to EK, you will be much better at that at least until lvl 10, at which EK gets Eldricht Strike... But you get Fireball next level and you have potentially more fuel. AND you can upcast all these, keeping them much more relevant than the ones from third casters. AND you get much better mobility to help hit enemies but not allies by optimizing position. :=)

- You get abilities that allow you to both deal damage and position enemies: sure, they use an action, and we all dream of them being instead like Battlemaster's Manoeuvers, or at least use a bonus action instead (I miss the old Water Whip on that regard, was fun to pair it with the push effect in the same turn ^^).

- You get a great alternative to Stunning Strike with Hold Person (first targets CON which is as reported and "feedbacked" by community as commonly high among enemies, other targets WIS, a save for which very few enemies have more than +1 or +2 bonus).

- You get abilities that directly enhance your Monkiness in Fangs of Fire Snake (extra reach = no need to Disengage, nor need to spend 10 more feet), Fly and even Wall of Stone (because you can easily make it so only you can cross it without using action for example).

- You get abilities that benefit all party with the Wall Spells.

Sun Soul, that was made much after, is better at mid levels for blasting because you get a radiant ranged attack and more cost-efficient Burning Hands (bonus action instead of action, and upcast higher than even a full caster), but that's basically it. Later features are good, sure, but nothing really jawbreaking either. And you get Burning Hands much later.

Shadow has some great spells, but one requires very good mind to not backfire (Darkness), and is otherwise used to enable other features of Shadow, which revolve around himself mainly. Silence is great but often require some help of party to make it stick (keep your concentration and keep enemy caster inside). Pass Without Trace is the real shiny here, party-wide, top sneak concentration buff. :)
But the spell selection is the same for your whole life. And honestly, I find 11th and 17th level very "meh". So basically you get the best of Shadow at low levels, for worst and best (probably one of the reasons Shadow gets so much love in multiclass builds). ;)

Open Hand Monk only gets two features that directly benefit the party, with one that is in the top 3 of all features, but so high level most people won't ever see it (Quivering Palm). Other features are directly self-centered and are "useful" but not "great".

Long Death gets one great party feature, one "lesser Quivering Palm" as capstone, and otherwise very good, but self-centered, features.

The thing with 4E is: you get to choose, at each level, what are the few things you want to be good at. And while you can perfectly choose "self-benefit" disciplines, you have a teamwork potential that only goes growing as you level, that you can adapt at level-up to take into account your partner's choices. ;)

Sooo... If you play with an Evoker or Fiend Warlock in the group, you will certainly feel ridiculous when compared to him on the blasting side.
If you play with a Heightening Sorcerer or Diviner Wizard in the group, you may feel your own Hold Person useless (although, technically, it just means that party can paralyse 2 enemies at the same time which is great).

Apart from those two cases, once you get past level 4, it's very fun to play and you can be a great asset to the party.

My only (very small scales, like "to be perfect") gripes with it are...

1. You have limited Disciplines known: if they did it to keep the number of features "in check" with other Ways, it was unnecessary. I personally don't mind having few Discipline known and swapping them, but you can perfectly double the number as a houserule. Won't break anything.
Even if I'm a supporter of "few tricks is not a problem" (makes you more predictible in party tactic making, and you do have many other things to spend Ki on anyways), 4 at the same time does feel a bit small. :)

2. You cannot use Flurry of Blows (but you can use Step of the Wind and others) when using a Discipline with an action. I don't mind either (I find you have sufficient things to do with bonus action and I somewhat understand why they tied FoB with Attack) but I get why people may get frustrated with this. It probably wouldn't break anything to allow this too. ;)

[Tanarii]

2+ Adds d10 Fire per hit per Ki

Each added d10 takes 1 Ki for the individual hit. Not for all hits in the Attack.

OTOH I don't believe it's limited by the max Ki rule, so you could in theory dump all your Ki on the first Hit. I might be wrong on that though.

[Desteplo]

Each added d10 takes 1 Ki for the individual hit. Not for all hits in the Attack.

OTOH I don't believe it's limited by the max Ki rule, so you could in theory dump all your Ki on the first Hit. I might be wrong on that though.

My mistake, I did misread the separation of the reach and damage. It is only 1 Ki per hit to a total of 8d10 +20 with 5 Ki
-still more than the other monks can do. Though not as nova as I originally posted

-unbroken fist and water whip still do 21d10 however

[Tanarii]

-unbroken fist and water whip still do 21d10 however
Fist of Unbroken Air and Water Whip are an Action* that do 3d10 for 2 Ki, plus 1d10 per additional Ki. So 6d10 Max at level 5. As an action they replace your normal attacks, and dont trigger a non-Flurry additional bonus action unarmed attack.

6d10 plus effect once per short rest isn't bad, especially as a saving throw. But 2d8+2d6+4*Dex for 5 rounds as attacks isn't bad use of Ki either. Nor is 3d10 plus effect as a save twice, plus one flurry.

IMO the primary point of 4ele-monks is added options for range, AoE and control. In that, they're obviously supposed to be somewhat conceptual like EKs, who get added options for range, AoE and defense.

*water whip was changed from a bonus action to an action by the errata early on.

[MeeposFire]

Very much like beastmaster rangers elemental monks have a negative reputation that is nastier than it deserves and in many cases confuses the problem which is less power and more about not being as fun or fun in the way many people want out of it (which in many ways is a worse problem).

For me my problems are related to how it does not have enough passive/at will abilities that are flavorful and give you the thematic feeling of the archetype (to me that is trying to aspire to be something like a bender from Avatar the Last Airbender or Korra). For me this is how I did tried to do that while hopefully not making it too strong (at least for my tables).

Level 3. Gain your choice of two options of elemental effects (every time you would gain a new spell in the original you gain 2 of any level you can cast using the feature I did not make any changes to that regard). The monk also gains elemental attunement and two other cantrips of their choice taken from a list full of thematic options. Lastly I gave them the ability to make more minor elemental effects that in some cases mimic things that prestidigitation or other minor spell effects that elemental attunement did not directly cover but are fun little things you would see in the show.

Level 6. Elemental Strike. Gain the ability to make blasts of various types of elemental energy chosen at time of use from fire, lightning, cold, or non-magical blunt damage (thrown rock shards). Attacks are made using your ranged spell attack roll using wisdom and are made using the attack action. You can also opt to replace your bonus action martial arts attack with this attack and can make two attacks with it instead of unarmed attacks when using flurry of blows. Damage is equal to your martial arts damage and has a short range of 30 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

Level 11- When using an elemental discipline that uses your action you can use a bonus action to use your martial arts attack or to use flurry of blows.

Level 17- The monk can now use their deflect arrows reaction ability to reduce damage from elemental sources (fire, cold, or lightning) whether that damage was done by an attack or a saving throw. If the monk spends one ki point the monk can use this absorbed energy to retaliate against the enemy that damaged the monk. This retaliatory attack can either be an unarmed strike or his elemental strike at range and in either case the attack deals normal damage +4d8 damage that can be either fire, cold, or lightning damage.


I also allow the list of disciplines to have more spells sometimes non-elemental spells reflavored to be elemental (for instance I created a version of haste that only works on the monk and is said to use the power of wind to increase their speed).

For my table these ideas let a player feel more like a bender from those shows and made it a lot more fun for them. There are a few other changes but they are more for my style of play and may not be for a more general discussion (I tend to give several disciples for free for some utility things that are not powerful enough to be taken by most players but are so cool that they wished they did for style).

[Tanarii]

Yeah the two complaints I see that make sense are:
- not enough at wills
- spending Ki reduces your main pool, and does so far more than other sub-classes.

The first can be solved by some reasonable cantrip granting. One of the best options I've seen is to grant them all the non-damaging elemental cantrips from EE for free, to go with Elemental Atunement.

The latter is hard to do without bumping them up quite a lot in power. I'm personally cool with the current balance, but I understand the point of view. But outright reducing Ki cost is definitely not the way to go, it makes them far more than putative "1/3 short-rest casters" if they use the "extra" Ki for elemental powers. If the reduced value saved, the "extra" Ki, was reserved for non-elemental powers, it might work.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Yeah the two complaints I see that make sense are:- not enough at wills
- spending Ki reduces your main pool, and does so far more than other sub-classes.
The first can be solved by some reasonable cantrip granting. One of the best options I've seen is to grant them all the non-damaging elemental cantrips from EE for free, to go with Elemental Atunement. The latter is hard to do without bumping them up quite a lot in power. I'm personally cool with the current balance, but I understand the point of view. But outright reducing Ki cost is definitely not the way to go, it makes them far more than putative "1/3 short-rest casters" if they use the "extra" Ki for elemental powers. If the reduced value saved, the "extra" Ki, was reserved for non-elemental powers, it might work.

Maybe if some of the elemental powers were just a flat X/times per long rest instead of costing Ki, it'd work better?