Is this a fair fight? Nalfeshnee vs Party

[Drache64]

The map is an open ground flat space

Nalfeshnee
Vs
Half elf fire sorcerer 6
Half orc kensai Monk 7
Tiefling Warlock 7
Human Assassin 6
Half elf bard 7
Lion cleric of pelor 7
Goliath control druid 6
Aarikoca (bird race) colossal killer ranger 6

Basically cr 13 vs average cr 6.5 party

The lion is a companion.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'd have to question the wisdom of presenting a solo monster to a party of 8 mid-level characters. According to the DMG, they should be able to take CR 20 solo monsters... I'd expect them to destroy the Nalfeshnee without breaking a sweat.

[Darkstar952]

A Single monster against a party of 4 level 6 and 4 level 7 players is an easy encounter just short of a medium.

If it wins initiative and unloads all of its attacks on a single target then it may pose a threat to that single character, after that or if it loses initiative the action economy will result in the monster getting totally destroyed.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Nalfeshnee's summoning power might help even this fight out a little bit, after a few of the chars have been feared, but with a party that size there will be damage and spell effects for the Nalfeshnee to deal with each round. If 4 Vrocks show up, it could be a decent fight, depending on who makes what saves.


Variant: Summon Demon (1/Day): The demon chooses what to summon and attempts a magical summoning.
A nalfeshnee has a 50 percent chance of summoning 1d4 vrocks, 1d3 hezrous, 1d2 glabrezus, or one nalfeshnee.
A summoned demon appears in an unoccupied space within 60 feet of its summoner, acts as an ally of its summoner, and can't summon other demons. It remains for 1 minute, until it or its summoner dies, or until its summoner dismisses it as an action.

Recalculate the encounter CR with the 4 Vrocks showing up, etc .... and see what it looks like ... tossing in 4 CR6 monsters into this fight could get real interesting, even deadly.

[the secret fire]

The CR calculations assume a party of four, and they don't work very well for solo monsters, anyway because of action economy. If they meet this thing on its home turf, you could give it lair and legendary actions. That would even things up a bit. Let it take a reaction after every character's turn, and you might get a decent fight, but still. You've got eight PCs here, not four, so your party is by no means a 6.5.

Big parties really wreck the published math of encounters. I'd say give the thing lair actions, at least, and add in some minions.

[Unoriginal]

As other said, no, it is absolutely not a fair fight. A Nalfeshnee would never agree to attack those people like that unless it had the choice between that and certain, permanent death, and in any case it'd make everything in its power to make the fight unfair to its advantage.

If you really want to make them fight on an open plain, here's my advice:

-Give the Nalfeshnee several goons to with alongside. Not summons. Nalfeshnee are military leaders, after all.

-Have the Nalfeshnee stays flying and far away from the PCs

-Give the Nalfeshnee a Longbow so it can shoot the PCs from as far as possible (since the Demon is large, the Longbow would deal 2d8+Dex mod)

-Have the Nalfeshnee focus on the casters who try to use Flight, or on the Aarakocra

-Have it try to flee if things get sour

[BeefGood]

...what everyone else said, but I want to chime in anyway because I tried to make a nalfeshnee the centerpiece of an encounter and it was such a letdown I’m still annoyed. The thing is slow, has no ranged attack, and its most interesting ability, the Horror Nimbus , has a range of just 15 feet. This for a Type 4 demon!
The brief write up on p54 MM says “Nalfesnees are devastating in combat....” No, they are pathetic in combat. They are utterly unsuited for 5e combat.
People mentioned minions and demon summoning—sure that helps but I think you should take it one step further and consider the “minions” the centerpiece of the battle. Set up an encounter with a gang of lesser demons that would pose a challenge to the party and then throw in the nalfeshnee to kick party members when they are down.
Compare nalfeshnee to fire giant. To- hit bonus similar, damage potential similar, AC same, nalfeshnee has horror nimbus but fire giant has a ranged attack. The point is the challenge rating: 9 for fire giant vs 13 for nalfeshnee. If fire giant is 9 then nalfeshnee should be 10 or maybe 11. Thirteen, no way.
You could give it lots of additional actions. Or, a smaller change would be to include teleport in its multi attack capability. Or, dramatically increase the range of horror nimbus—maybe to 150 feet. I’m serious. That would be a fun challenge for the party, to try to get someone into melee range.
In conclusion, nalfeshnees are pathetic.

[LudicSavant]

The map is an open ground flat space

Nalfeshnee
Vs
Half elf fire sorcerer 6
Half orc kensai Monk 7
Tiefling Warlock 7
Human Assassin 6
Half elf bard 7
Lion cleric of pelor 7
Goliath control druid 6
Aarikoca (bird race) colossal killer ranger 6

Basically cr 13 vs average cr 6.5 party

The lion is a companion.

It's not a fair fight... to the CR13 monster. This should be an Easy fight for average players. Strong players won't even notice the speed bump.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

If you're running an eight person party, try two Nalfeshnee and a few minions or one Nalfeshnee and a lot of minions.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Compare nalfeshnee to fire giant.

To be fair, the demon has more HP, an extra save proficiency, six damage resistances and magic resistance. It should be more durable than the giant; that's where the extra CR is coming from.

Whether those things actually matter is another question... They all have an impact on the CR maths but don't seem like such a big deal when you think about it.

In any case, adding more demons to the fight is still the way to go for this encounter.

[Unoriginal]

Nalfeshnee are not pathetic.


They are good at resisting magic, have high AC and decent HPs, lots of resistance, both flight (which makes them not slow, btw) and teleportation, and their Nimbus works well in melee. They are indeed devastating in battle. The only reason they'd be pathetic is if the 19 INT Demon is made to act like a Zombie Ogre for some reasons.

With the abilities it has, the Nalfeshnee is great to target casters who stay in the back during fights, grapple them, then fly up dragging them. With their Nimbus used to keep wannabe-rescuers at bay while doing this.

[KillingTime]

Much has already been said by the other posters regarding the lack of CR balance when the party gets above 4 players, and really at 8 this effect is extremely noticable.
The action economy of the player party is so very much greater than the Nalfeshnee that barring some weirdly improbable dice rolling, the characters will walk over this encounter without breaking a sweat.

Because of the way action economy works, balancing the encounter is a pretty simple case of adding more bodies to the fray. Force the players to either spend their attacks on things other than the Nalfeshnee or risk getting dragged down by the lesser mooks while they focus on the boss.

A cadre of Vrocks to act as bodyguards has already been mentioned, but consider some real chaff like Dretches, Manes or Quasits as well.
With very low CR mooks you can throw handfulls at the party without genuinely threatening them directly, but forcing real target priority headaches.
If you are still unsure of how to balance the encounter, consider having the Nalfeshnee starting the fight with a lower number of allies (it's a general of hell's army - it's got to have at least some troops), but summoning more if the fight looks to be too easy for the players.
Starting with a phalanx of 12 or 15 Dretch would be extremely intimidating for the party even though individually they pose no serious threat at all. It's simply about forcing the players to spend resources dealing with the chaff that they'd rather be throwing at the main target.

[Unoriginal]

Maw demons can be an interesting balance between weak yet still threatening.

[BeefGood]

The only reason they'd be pathetic is if the 19 INT Demon is made to act like a Zombie Ogre for some reasons.

With the abilities it has, the Nalfeshnee is great to target casters who stay in the back during fights, grapple them, then fly up dragging them. With their Nimbus used to keep wannabe-rescuers at bay while doing this.

Translation: the nalfeshnee excels at attacking the squishiest party members.
A Type 4 demon—but don’t expect it to take on the fighters!
“Nalfeshnee—the Terror of Tier One!”
I stand by my assessment. Pathetic.

[Asmotherion]

The map is an open ground flat space

Nalfeshnee
Vs
Half elf fire sorcerer 6
Half orc kensai Monk 7
Tiefling Warlock 7
Human Assassin 6
Half elf bard 7
Lion cleric of pelor 7
Goliath control druid 6
Aarikoca (bird race) colossal killer ranger 6

Basically cr 13 vs average cr 6.5 party

The lion is a companion.

Well, others have already said more or less how this is a trivial encounter for your players; I also feel covered by the Summon option, to balance out the encounter; as long as it does not summon an other Nalfeshnee that is, or the encounter will become quite deadly.

I just have to ask; How did a Lion become a Cleric? Is it the equivalent of an Aasimar Lion or a Celestial Lion (perhaps unbound Conjured Creature)? Or simply an Awakened Lion who learned Religion and Decided to become a Cleric? I am curious about his backstory.

[KillingTime]

I also feel covered by the Summon option, to balance out the encounter; as long as it does not summon an other Nalfeshnee that is, or the encounter will become quite deadly.


Assuming you go for random summoning.
There's no reason you can't cheat and have it summon whatever you want, in as high numbers as you want, at the exact time that you want.

[Asmotherion]

Assuming you go for random summoning.
There's no reason you can't cheat and have it summon whatever you want, in as high numbers as you want, at the exact time that you want.

It's not really cheating. Random summoning is a way to make narative less linear. As long as you can balance out the encounter, you can feel free to remove the random element from random summoning. Your table, your story, your encounter. Just don't put a second Nalfeshnee in there, or the fight won't go without serious casualties at best, and a very possible TPK.

[KillingTime]

It's not really cheating.

I know it's not really cheating.
I just call it cheating for brevity because it's easier to type out than "as DM you are perfectly at liberty to design encounters as you see fit, and may pick and choose which rules you use, either in their complete form, or altered as appropriate".
And there are plenty of players (DMs and regular players) who find it really difficult to deviate from written content, regardless of how constricting it is.
Giving people the perceived permission to "cheat" is sometimes more effective.

[Unoriginal]

Translation: the nalfeshnee excels at attacking the squishiest party members.

Taking out the casters early is not only something that is important tactically, it's also something many monsters struggle with, and the Nalfeshnee can accomplish it.

Which is especially a good thing when you consider that the Nalfeshnee's job is to lead armies of low-level demons, which are the kind of targets casters excel against.

But sure, if you consider that killing the party's casters is a waste of time when you could charge at the meatbags in the front, ...


A Type 4 demon—but don’t expect it to take on the fighters!

I don't know if you think you're being clever, but that statement is just nonsense. A Nalfeshnee is perfectly capable to take on fighters.

That doesn't mean it should just throw itself alone at a full group and give them the chance to use team tactic against itself.

Because doing this is stupid. Even mighty Ancient Dragons don't do this if they can avoid it.

You can't make monsters act like total morons and then declare them pathetic as if you proved anything.


Just don't put a second Nalfeshnee in there, or the fight won't go without serious casualties at best, and a very possible TPK.

IMO, if a fight against Fiends is actually fair, then the Fiends aren't doing their jobs right.

[Ninja_Prawn]

IMO, if a fight against Fiends is actually fair, then the Fiends aren't doing their jobs right.

Eh, devils, maybe. Demons got the ol' Blood Rage going on though!

[BeefGood]

magic resistance.
<snip>
They all have an impact on the CR maths but don't seem like such a big deal when you think about it.

Yes, magic resistance is difficult to value. If the party members have magic weapons then it's worthless, if they don't then it's worth quite a bit. There's no good way to work it into a simple metric like the challenge rating.


Which is especially a good thing when you consider that the Nalfeshnee's job is to lead armies of low-level demons, which are the kind of targets casters excel against.

I bet an NPC Noble would be willing to lead an army of low-level soldiers, and you'd probably be able to pay him much less than the going rate for a nalfeshnee.



But sure, if you consider that killing the party's casters is a waste of time when you could charge at the meatbags in the front, ...

Its weaknesses make this easier said than done. (BTW I do think 30' flight is slow). But even granting for the sake of argument that a nalfeshnee is an effective caster-neutralizer, it's a question of value. Hire an evil Noble to command the demon minions, hire an evil monk to take out the caster, and I bet you'll still come out way ahead.

[Unoriginal]

Eh, devils, maybe. Demons got the ol' Blood Rage going on though!

Plenty of Demons are very smart. Even the literal Prince of Savagery will not act like a dumb beast just to give the PCs a fair fight.




I bet an NPC Noble would be willing to lead an army of low-level soldiers, and you'd probably be able to pay him much less than the going rate for a nalfeshnee.

Is that supposed to be an argument?

You know the stats of the Noble NPC, right?

Or are you trying to just deny reality and pretend the Nalfeshnee is as weak as the Noble?


Its weaknesses make this easier said than done.

No they don't. A Nalfeshnee has no particular weakness. If you think that not being able to take on a huge group by yourself by charging at it like a dumbass is a weakness, then all of 5e monsters have it.

(BTW I do think 30' flight is slow).[/QUOTE]

So most PCs are slow, for you. Ok.


But even granting for the sake of argument that a nalfeshnee is an effective caster-neutralizer, it's a question of value.

No it's not. Not only you've never brought up that in your other posts, but you're also trying to argue that the Nalphesnee is not worth some kind of hypothetical salary, when it's obvious the demon is good at its job.



Hire an evil Noble to command the demon minions, hire an evil monk to take out the caster, and I bet you'll still come out way ahead.

Yeah, I'm sure an evil noble and an evil monk are going to be efficient against a whole group.

[BeefGood]

Unoriginal--I remembered we had a discussion like this earlier!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535024-Improving-Demons/page2
That thread also features comparisons to earlier editions, discussion of typical ranges for starting encounters, and a lot of discussion of the balor.




You know the stats of the Noble NPC, right?
Yes, I think a noble has 9 hit points, right? That's my point. If what you want is a battlefield commander, put a Noble on a hippogriff and you're good to go. No need for CR13 demon.



you're also trying to argue that the Nalphesnee is not worth some kind of hypothetical salary, when it's obvious the demon is good at its job.
This is the thing. I don't think it is good at any particular job. It doesn't seem designed for any particular job. For example, if it's going to be a battlefield commander, then it should have some related ability, like Battle Cry or whatever is the name. Your allies get some sort of buff. Or if it's a caster-killer, then it should be faster, like a monk. Or if it's going to swoop down on things, then it should have Flyby.
I think what the nalfeshnee is best suited for is melee, where the Horror Nimbus is applicable. When things go bad it can use its teleport to escape.
And melee just seems underwhelming, IMO, for a Type 4 demon.

[Drache64]

Well, others have already said more or less how this is a trivial encounter for your players; I also feel covered by the Summon option, to balance out the encounter; as long as it does not summon an other Nalfeshnee that is, or the encounter will become quite deadly.

I just have to ask; How did a Lion become a Cleric? Is it the equivalent of an Aasimar Lion or a Celestial Lion (perhaps unbound Conjured Creature)? Or simply an Awakened Lion who learned Religion and Decided to become a Cleric? I am curious about his backstory.

One player has a crystal ball that holds a demiplane, the lion comes out from the ball. She named it Aslan lol.

As far as the encounter goes, I'm going to still run it but I'm going to DM fudge a few things and take a few suggestions from here.

This is a named Nalfeshnee, not a random one, he calls himself the Hunter and is renown for his legendary resilience.

It will have max HP: 246
I will have it pass all spell resistance checks automatically
And it's resistances will only be bypassed by holy damage, of which only the NPC companion has.
He will also be given legendary and lair actions.

I will also play it as an expert tactician, so it will target the sorcerer first, then the lion, then the bards and druids. With healing taken care of it will then focus on any melee DPS then tanks last.

I want my PCs to succeed but hopefully this makes it feel more like a boss fight.

[Unoriginal]

Unoriginal--I remembered we had a discussion like this earlier!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535024-Improving-Demons/page2
That thread also features comparisons to earlier editions, discussion of typical ranges for starting encounters, and a lot of discussion of the balor.

I know, yes.



Yes, I think a noble has 9 hit points, right? That's my point. If what you want is a battlefield commander, put a Noble on a hippogriff and you're good to go. No need for CR13 demon.

Well, a noble on an hippogriff is awesome too, but it's a very different encounter from a demon leader who can wreck your face as well as giving orders to wreck your face.




This is the thing. I don't think it is good at any particular job. It doesn't seem designed for any particular job. For example, if it's going to be a battlefield commander, then it should have some related ability, like Battle Cry or whatever is the name. Your allies get some sort of buff. Or if it's a caster-killer, then it should be faster, like a monk. Or if it's going to swoop down on things, then it should have Flyby.
I think what the nalfeshnee is best suited for is melee, where the Horror Nimbus is applicable. When things go bad it can use its teleport to escape.
And melee just seems underwhelming, IMO, for a Type 4 demon.

The Nalfeshnee is best suited for melee, yes. It doesn't mean they can't lead or can't be smart about melee.

The flying porc-gorilla may be mechanically similar to a brute like the Ogre or the Troll, but you're really underestimating the Nimbus, and not thinking about the tactics such a Demon would employ.

The Nimbus has a DC 15 Wis save, which means a lot of the Martials won't have an easy time passing it. If affected, they can't approach the Nalfeshnee. Meaning that, combined with the 3D approach that flight grants the Demon, the Nalfeshnee has free reign to pick up the squishy members of the team first, and with their resistance to magic, the members of the group who aren't affected will have an hard time doing anything. My "grapple and fly away" suggestion is due to how the Nimbus's effect duration might be short, so it'd be better to secure one "prey" before going away. If it has goons with it, the Nalfeshnee will order them to bog down the other adventurers so it can have its time killing the squishy.

And if it does have to challenge the Martials in melee, it proves itself to be more than sufficient enough. Of course, if it lets itself getting surrounded, it's going to get rekt, but as you pointed out it can teleport away.

One thing I grant you: I think they should have made so the Horror Nimbus grants cover. Maybe total cover, maybe less, but it would have been a good way to spice things up.

[bc56]

Two things: terrain and terrain
The nalfeshnee is shockingly bland for a 5e demon. In the right environment, I could make a nycaloth or a glabrezu deadlier than it on an open plain against 8 pcs

What you need is a suitable location. It needs to split the party into groups of 1 or 2, drop them in a labyrinth, then the nalfeshnee ambushes groups one at a time. A teleport trap that scatters the party around a big network of cave tunnels, just big enough for the monster to move through without squeezing would work great.

[Unoriginal]

One player has a crystal ball that holds a demiplane, the lion comes out from the ball. She named it Aslan lol.

As far as the encounter goes, I'm going to still run it but I'm going to DM fudge a few things and take a few suggestions from here.

This is a named Nalfeshnee, not a random one, he calls himself the Hunter and is renown for his legendary resilience.

It will have max HP: 246
I will have it pass all spell resistance checks automatically
And it's resistances will only be bypassed by holy damage, of which only the NPC companion has.
He will also be given legendary and lair actions.

I will also play it as an expert tactician, so it will target the sorcerer first, then the lion, then the bards and druids. With healing taken care of it will then focus on any melee DPS then tanks last.

I want my PCs to succeed but hopefully this makes it feel more like a boss fight.

If it's an expert tactician, it should focus on the flying Ranger first.

Also, since it's a named boss, you could give it different equipment to set it aside from the rest of the Nalfeshnee. If he's a hunter, maybe a ranged weapon and a net?

[Ninja_Prawn]

you could give it equipment, maybe a net?

(edited for comedy)

Nets: for those times when your CR 13 demon general just doesn't quite have enough oomph!

[Unoriginal]

(edited for comedy)

Nets: for those times when your CR 13 demon general just doesn't quite have enough oomph!

If I were a flying being, I'd rather not have a weighted meant-to-stop-me-from-moving item dropping on me.


Oh, other idea in the same register: the Nalfeshnee could use bolas. Now that'd be a nasty surprise.

[Drache64]

If it's an expert tactician, it should focus on the flying Ranger first.

Also, since it's a named boss, you could give it different equipment to set it aside from the rest of the Nalfeshnee. If he's a hunter, maybe a ranged weapon and a net?

The ranger player is kind of a noob. But he's got a lot of heart :)

[bc56]

Keep in mind that a Nalfeshnee is a tank. It's intended to fear enemies that close up with it's squishier allies. It will do best against low WIS PCs, Like fighters and barbarians, and it will know that melee combatants tend to be weaker to its power. Use that to its advantage.

[ad_hoc]

A party of 6 has about double the power of a party of 4.

A party of 8 probably has close to 4 times the power of a party of 4.

[Malifice]

The map is an open ground flat space

Nalfeshnee
Vs
Half elf fire sorcerer 6
Half orc kensai Monk 7
Tiefling Warlock 7
Human Assassin 6
Half elf bard 7
Lion cleric of pelor 7
Goliath control druid 6
Aarikoca (bird race) colossal killer ranger 6

Basically cr 13 vs average cr 6.5 party

The lion is a companion.

Huge party.

When designing encounters for the above party, you should always start with context of those encounters; namely asking yourself: How many encounters will the party have to deal with during this adventuring day [between long rests]. You're not building encounters; you're building adventuring days (often featuring several encounters).

Generally they can deal with around 6-8 medium to hard encounters between long rests (assuming 2-3 short rests over the same period of time). Obviously a party that has had to deal with several encounters already in a single day will have less resources to deal with more as the day progresses. If the day only features the one encounter, then you can afford to dial up the difficulty somewhat.

Your adventuring days should be a mix (some longer with more encounters, and some shorter with more difficult encounters, some with plenty of opportunity to short rest, and some with less opportunity to short rest).

If you're building a 'standard' adventuring day of 6 or so encounters (PCs must deal with 6 encounters before long resting, and gain a short rest every 2 encounters for 2 short rests) then the XP budget is what you are looking for:

http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/
(http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/)

When I plug in your party of 8 into the above calculator (I conservatively set their level to 7 to account for magic items) I get the following XP budget:

Easy: 2800 XP
Medium: 6000 XP
Hard: 8800 XP
Deadly: 13600 XP

A single CR 13 monster has an adjusted XP value of 5000 (half it's 10000 value as it's a solo non-legendary creature). That makes it an Easy fight. Even without adjusting the Nalafshees XP, it would only be a Hard fight.

Realistically the party you mentioned could and should be able to deal with 6 seperate encounters of 1 Nalafshee each (gaining a short rest after every second fight) and triumph.

If you want the Nalefshee to be more of a challenge as a 'Solo'threat I would make the following changes:


Add: Legendary resistance 3/ day (if the Demon fails a save, it can choose to pass instead).
Add: Legendary actions (3). The Nalafshee can take the following actions after another creature has had a turn:



Claw: (1 action): The Nalafshee makes a claw attack


Horror Nimbus (2 actions): The Nalafshee's Horror Nimbus resets, and it makes a Horror Nimbus attack.


Teleport (2 actions): The Nalafshee magically teleports up to 60' to an unoccupied place it can see.


Increase its HD (and HP) by 50% to 22d10 (276 HP)
Increase it's saves, AC and proficiency bonus (and the Save DC of its Horror Nimbus) by +1 (to account for it's increased CR), and finally
Increase the damage dice of its bite and claw attacks by 1 die step (5d12 +5 damage with the bite, and 3d8+5 with the claws).


Also increase CR to 15.

As a Legendary monster with a CR of 15 it hovers around the 'Deadly'mark for your party.

To spice it up more, consider adding some Mooks to the encounter. Half a dozen to a dozen low CR (around CR 1/2 - 1) creatures. I'd probably go with 2 x Cult fanatics, and 8 x cultists (with multi-attack added in to the cultists).

[Asmotherion]

IMO, if a fight against Fiends is actually fair, then the Fiends aren't doing their jobs right.

Deppends on the Fiend in question really.

-There can be a Fiend who would see the PCs with arrogance, and not bother perceiving them as an actual threat thus making the fight unfair towards the Fiend.

-An other may be focused on total anihilation of his targets, doubling the needed resources in his sence of superiority and willingness to crush oposition, resultion in a deadly encounter.

-Finally, some other, more noble Fiend may see something in a particular PC, strenght perhaps, and in honor of a suitable opponent, seek to sort out differances in a fair Duel instead of an all out battle.

Some are more suitable to Devils, others to Demons. Still, it stands true that Fiends are not two dimensional, and can be very intersting antagonists in a campain.