Questions about Mage the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition

[ColorBlindNinja]

I was hoping to find some answers to a few questions I have about Mage the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition. Perhaps my Google-Fu is weak, but I couldn't really find much information about M20.


- How do the rules for M20 compare to other editions of Mage? Are they more or less broken?

- What are the most important attributes, abilities, backgrounds, ect, for a character?

- What are the best Spheres in M20? Which are not as useful? Which ones should a starting character prioritize?

- Is there one particular paradigm that's superior to the others? Are there any that are noticeably inferior?

- Are there any weapons that are especially game breaking?

- Are there any creatures (people, animals, spirits, ect) that are prone to abuse or likely to cause a TPK?

- Finally, any miscellaneous tips for a new player/GM?

I would greatly appreciate any information provided. Thank you!

[fishyfishyfishy]

I was hoping to find some answers to a few questions I have about Mage the Ascension 20th Anniversary Edition. Perhaps my Google-Fu is weak, but I couldn't really find much information about M20.
I'll answer my best. I have run this system before and it's my favorite.


- How do the rules for M20 compare to other editions of Mage? Are they more or less broken? No more or less "broken". Think of M20 more as a compilation of rules, with many different variants contained within. The ST will have to make rulings on which options are considered default and what meta-plot is canon.


- What are the most important attributes, abilities, backgrounds, ect, for a character? That is highly subjective, which is kind of the point of the game (reality being subjective and all). Anything can be useful. That said, I quite enjoy characters who's Paradigm has basis in Science, and find Knowledges like chemistry are very useful for advanced Matter and Forces effects. The Avatar background is a defining feature for any Mage, and a smart person with enough financial Resources can accomplish a great deal.


- What are the best Spheres in M20? Which are not as useful? Which ones should a starting character prioritize? All the spheres are useful. It depends on the type of magic you want your character to be capable of performing. I recommend starting with Arete 2 and getting a couple of spheres at that level if you're new. Arete 3 is expensive to begin with and hyper specialization won't do you much good unless you know what you're doing. The most immediately useful Spheres are Matter, Life, and Forces, though the most versatile are probably Entropy and Spirit.


- Is there one particular paradigm that's superior to the others? Are there any that are noticeably inferior? Paradigms based in science are easier to get away with coincidental effects, but Technomancers discard instruments at a delayed rate. It's up to you to decide if the trade is worth it.


- Are there any weapons that are especially game breaking? Not particularly, considering the possibilities within this game. Any weapon can be incredibly harmful, and Spheres can do pretty potent things even for a starting character.


- Are there any creatures (people, animals, spirits, ect) that are prone to abuse or likely to cause a TPK? Fighting is incredibly dangerous in this system. You've only got 7 health levels, and more than 2 lethal or aggravated damage can set you back for long periods of time without supernatural healing. The best bet, even for Masters, is to avoid direct confrontations if you can. If you cannot, make sure you're over-prepared or you will likely die.


- Finally, any miscellaneous tips for a new player/GM?
The game is all about telling an interesting story. Make all your decisions with that in mind - including matters of paradox. It's not about fighting, winning, or defeating anything. The struggle of balancing your mortal life with the supernatural could easily be a focus for a chronicle, along side adventures to other planes of existence, time travel, and monstrous enemies. Have fun, and remember the rules are just a guideline.


I would greatly appreciate any information provided. Thank you!
I hope that helps.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'll answer my best. I have run this system before and it's my favorite.

No more or less "broken". Think of M20 more as a compilation of rules, with many different variants contained within. The ST will have to make rulings on which options are considered default and what meta-plot is canon.

Interesting...



That is highly subjective, which is kind of the point of the game (reality being subjective and all). Anything can be useful. That said, I quite enjoy characters who's Paradigm has basis in Science, and find Knowledges like chemistry are very useful for advanced Matter and Forces effects. The Avatar background is a defining feature for any Mage, and a smart person with enough financial Resources can accomplish a great deal.

So, they're aren't any real choices in character creation that will gimp a character for the rest of the game, then?



All the spheres are useful. It depends on the type of magic you want your character to be capable of performing. I recommend starting with Arete 2 and getting a couple of spheres at that level if you're new. Arete 3 is expensive to begin with and hyper specialization won't do you much good unless you know what you're doing.

Is having a high Arete important to successfully use magick?



The most immediately useful Spheres are Matter, Life, and Forces, though the most versatile are probably Entropy and Spirit.

Ok.



Paradigms based in science are easier to get away with coincidental effects, but Technomancers discard instruments at a delayed rate. It's up to you to decide if the trade is worth it.

Sounds balanced.



Not particularly, considering the possibilities within this game. Any weapon can be incredibly harmful, and Spheres can do pretty potent things even for a starting character.

Ok.



Fighting is incredibly dangerous in this system. You've only got 7 health levels, and more than 2 lethal or aggravated damage can set you back for long periods of time without supernatural healing. The best bet, even for Masters, is to avoid direct confrontations if you can. If you cannot, make sure you're over-prepared or you will likely die.

Thanks, I'll remember that.



The game is all about telling an interesting story. Make all your decisions with that in mind - including matters of paradox. It's not about fighting, winning, or defeating anything. The struggle of balancing your mortal life with the supernatural could easily be a focus for a chronicle, along side adventures to other planes of existence, time travel, and monstrous enemies. Have fun, and remember the rules are just a guideline.


I hope that helps.

Thank you very much!

[JeenLeen]

As a tip for a new GM, I'd recommend letting the players be members of a chantry with some established defenses. It'd let them have a home base that is relatively safe, but doesn't cost char-gen points. A Mind ward on it to make people ignore it, and Correspondence wards to deflect scrying, make it a useful place to lay low if the cops or technocrats are looking for you. But of course that depends on the type of game you want to run. But I found it really nice in a game where we were focused in a given city. (Once the players are more established, the chantry could be lost to plot. But maybe be up-front with them that, as this is free, it might go away through no fault of the players.)

I also recommend going easy during the first fight, especially if they aren't used to the lethality of the system. Maybe some human thugs?
Also, especially if the team comes from a D&D "it is okay to kill enemies" perspective, mention OOC that it's still not cool to kill random thugs, like gangsters who pick a fight with you. Killing technocrats or vampires is okay, of course, and it's reasonable to kill in self-defense if you can't prevent it, but you probably want to keep the death of mundanes low. In practical terms, it's good for reputation and keeps you low on the law's radar.
In the first Mage game I was in, we got in a fight as some gangsters tried to steal my character's car. Coming from a more okay-to-kill gaming experience, we drew guns and opened fire. I think 4 out of 5 of them were killed, something like that. We wound up looking like trigger-happy crazy folk to some of the supernaturals in town due to that response.


=
So, they're aren't any real choices in character creation that will gimp a character for the rest of the game, then?


I haven't read the 20th anniversary rules, but if the rules are similar to oWoD (or even nWoD), I highly recommend NOT dumping Dexterity. It ties too closely into ability to hit and to dodge. I guess if you have enough magic to make that irrelevant, you'd be okay, but I'd find such a build hard to make.

Having at least one PC in the party who can heal is very helpful. If the game lasts long enough that you will have enough xp, and has enough fights to matter, I highly recommend everyone eventually getting enough Life to heal themselves.


- Is there one particular paradigm that's superior to the others? Are there any that are noticeably inferior?
As paradigm follows closely with Tradition, I'll note a couple things about some Traditions. How much it matters depends on how the GM handles some stuff.

Euthanatos are more likely to accumulate Jhor, a death-resonance that can cause lack of empathy to eventual serial killer actions. This is in part because Entropy magic lends to Jhor easily, but also because they are supposed to investigate and kill those who need to 'move on' to the next life. Killing a lot can cause Jhor.
The Order of Hermes is supposed to abide by the Code of Hermes, which has some (reasonable) restrictions. In part, it's a serious offense to deal with demons or vampires. Maybe death penalty. This is good to keep in mind because there are useful allies to make, and even some good people, amongst vampires and demons. Well, demons in the Demon: The Fallen splatbook, not demons in the sense of the demons that the Nephandi serve.

I personally liked a paradigm that was pretty fluid in foci, so I could generally cast even if missing some of my gear, but that's personal preference (and too much of that might tick off a GM.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

As a tip for a new GM, I'd recommend letting the players be members of a chantry with some established defenses. It'd let them have a home base that is relatively safe, but doesn't cost char-gen points. A Mind ward on it to make people ignore it, and Correspondence wards to deflect scrying, make it a useful place to lay low if the cops or technocrats are looking for you. But of course that depends on the type of game you want to run. But I found it really nice in a game where we were focused in a given city. (Once the players are more established, the chantry could be lost to plot. But maybe be up-front with them that, as this is free, it might go away through no fault of the players.)

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.



I also recommend going easy during the first fight, especially if they aren't used to the lethality of the system. Maybe some human thugs?

Ok.



Also, especially if the team comes from a D&D "it is okay to kill enemies" perspective, mention OOC that it's still not cool to kill random thugs, like gangsters who pick a fight with you. Killing technocrats or vampires is okay, of course, and it's reasonable to kill in self-defense if you can't prevent it, but you probably want to keep the death of mundanes low. In practical terms, it's good for reputation and keeps you low on the law's radar.
In the first Mage game I was in, we got in a fight as some gangsters tried to steal my character's car. Coming from a more okay-to-kill gaming experience, we drew guns and opened fire. I think 4 out of 5 of them were killed, something like that. We wound up looking like trigger-happy crazy folk to some of the supernaturals in town due to that response.

PCs do tend to solve problems with violence, don't they?



I haven't read the 20th anniversary rules, but if the rules are similar to oWoD (or even nWoD), I highly recommend NOT dumping Dexterity. It ties too closely into ability to hit and to dodge. I guess if you have enough magic to make that irrelevant, you'd be okay, but I'd find such a build hard to make.

I suspected that dexterity was was fairly important.



Having at least one PC in the party who can heal is very helpful. If the game lasts long enough that you will have enough xp, and has enough fights to matter, I highly recommend everyone eventually getting enough Life to heal themselves.

Life 2 is enough to heal yourself in M20.

I had a feeling Life would be a worthwhile investment.



As paradigm follows closely with Tradition, I'll note a couple things about some Traditions. How much it matters depends on how the GM handles some stuff.

Euthanatos are more likely to accumulate Jhor, a death-resonance that can cause lack of empathy to eventual serial killer actions. This is in part because Entropy magic lends to Jhor easily, but also because they are supposed to investigate and kill those who need to 'move on' to the next life. Killing a lot can cause Jhor.
The Order of Hermes is supposed to abide by the Code of Hermes, which has some (reasonable) restrictions. In part, it's a serious offense to deal with demons or vampires. Maybe death penalty. This is good to keep in mind because there are useful allies to make, and even some good people, amongst vampires and demons. Well, demons in the Demon: The Fallen splatbook, not demons in the sense of the demons that the Nephandi serve.

Interesting, I think we were planning to be Orphans, but I'll keep that in mind.



I personally liked a paradigm that was pretty fluid in foci, so I could generally cast even if missing some of my gear, but that's personal preference (and too much of that might tick off a GM.)

I don't think that'll be an issue.

Thank you very much for your response.

[JeenLeen]

Orphans opens up a rather interesting element, paradigm-wise. Since you weren't trained by any Tradition, you can use (within reason and DM acceptance) any internally-consistent worldview to channel your magic. That gives a lot of flexibility.

A downside is that the Traditions generally look down on Orphans, and you won't have their network of protection or assistance (such as it is). However, I can see the Tradition chantries in a given city being friendly with Orphans, or even having an agreement that they can crash at the chantry to avoid the Technocracy in exchange for some minor favors. At some point in the metaplot, the Traditions were very friendly with the Hollow Ones* and sometimes had them as chantry members, so there's somewhat a precedent in the lore.

*might have the name slightly wrong. Also, technically these are a Craft, but a Craft is not that different from 'a group of Orphans that has a consistent philosophy and has existed for a good while'. Essentially, it's a group not in the Traditions or the Technocracy that has enough membership to have some standing, at least in a localized area. (I think one Craft is a major power in either China and/or Japan, and there's a strong Craft active in the middle east.)

I love the Mage metaplot and metaphysics, so I tend to go a bit overdetailed. A lot of it does depend on what the DM accepts or cares enough to make the world consistent with. Same with exactly what ranks of Spheres can do what. Unless the 20th anniversary system cleaned up the internally inconsistencies other rulebooks have had about what Spheres can do, I recommend discussing it with the DM to get a clear idea. For example, do you need Correspondence 2 to cast spells at line-of-sight? In one rulebook, I saw one reading saying line-of-sight was the default, and another said it was touch without Corr 2.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Orphans opens up a rather interesting element, paradigm-wise. Since you weren't trained by any Tradition, you can use (within reason and DM acceptance) any internally-consistent worldview to channel your magic. That gives a lot of flexibility.

That flexibility is largely what drew us to the Orphans.

One our players wasn't terribly interested in any of the preexisting groups.



I love the Mage metaplot and metaphysics, so I tend to go a bit overdetailed. A lot of it does depend on what the DM accepts or cares enough to make the world consistent with. Same with exactly what ranks of Spheres can do what. Unless the 20th anniversary system cleaned up the internally inconsistencies other rulebooks have had about what Spheres can do, I recommend discussing it with the DM to get a clear idea. For example, do you need Correspondence 2 to cast spells at line-of-sight? In one rulebook, I saw one reading saying line-of-sight was the default, and another said it was touch without Corr 2.

I'm largely ignorant of the past editions of Mage, but I believe an explicit goal of M20 was to clarify the rules, with an emphasis on the rules for magic.

My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe you don't need Correspondence 2 for line of sight effects in M20.

[fishyfishyfishy]

"Is having a high Arete important to successfully use magick?"
Yes absolutely, it's your dice pool for magic. Though you cannot start higher than 3 at character creation.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes absolutely, it's your dice pool for magic. Though you cannot start higher than 3 at character creation.

Right. But you don't need it at 3 right off the bat?

[JeenLeen]

Right. But you don't need it at 3 right off the bat?

You don't really need it at 3, but I've heard it is generally recommended for a few reasons
1) it is hard to get off major effects without at least 2 successes, so having only 2 dice makes that difficult. Maybe this isn't true with all Spheres, but it is with at least some
2) from a character-optimization viewpoint, it generally costs less points to boost things via bonus points at char-gen than to use experience points in-game (at least for rank 3+). So starting at Arete 3 and with a Sphere at 3 makes it so that you are a competent caster and very good with at least one Sphere. It can take a long time to get the experience for that in-game. Also, training time (if enforced by DM) is longer for higher-ranked stuff, so you can learn more, more quickly in-game if you already have your heavy expenditures done.

Personally, I recommend at least Dexterity 4, Stamina 3 for stats.
Willpower as high as you can afford to go.
Decent Dodge and decent aiming (Melee, Firearms, or if you plan to hurl fireballs or something like that, Occult or whatever--ask your DM).
Arete 3 and a Sphere that is really useful at 3. Combat-wise, I see Spheres getting really good at:
Correspondence -- 3 can teleport yourself. Good for escapes.
Entropy -- 2 is good for boosting accuracy coincidentally, but all-in-all more a utility Sphere. A trip to Vegas winning just enough to stay below the Technocracy's radar could be wise.
Life -- 2 to heal yourself, or 3 to heal allies or harm enemies. Life 3 is rather handy.
Forces -- 2 is generally good enough for boosting the kinetic energy to your mundane attacks.
Matter -- depends on DM rulings, but Matter 2 to turn whatever-into-acid can deal damage. Very useful utility-wise, or make gold/diamonds to sell to pawn shops for cash without the Technocracy noticing.
Mind -- Terrible for damage. Awesome utility. Mind 3 lets you read minds pretty well & do some damage.
Prime -- very useful utility stuff, but generally secondary to other Spheres.
Spirit -- summoning allies is really good, if you have good allies. Ask DM if you need the Ally background.
Time -- although almost always paradoxical, Time 3 Haste is brutally effective if your mundane damage is good. If you plan to scry the past, ask your DM how easy it is for someone in the past to notice and thus kill you by acting differently and thus giving you 'dox for inadvertently changing the past.

So I err towards Life 3 and Forces 2 as standards, with others as I have room for or it makes sense for the character build.
BUT my group was rather char-op (even though we still really cared about the story, too), so this isn't necessarily needed and might be advice you'd prefer to avoid. And, of course, have whatever Skills are needed for your paradigm or just what you want for a fun character.

A sorta downside of oWoD character-generation is that it effectively awards focusing on being good at a few things, since the bonus-point/xp cost ratio is not balanced. If I recall correctly (and 20th Anniversary didn't revise it greatly), it costs the same bonus points to go to Sphere 4 as it does to Sphere 2. But xp costs are way higher.

As another combat note, if you are using Forces to boost your damage, it generally matters more that you hit than how much raw damage your physical attack does (since Forces will add damage.) Thus, using a weapon with a low difficulty to-hit is more worthwhile than a weapon that has a lot of damage dice. By end-game, we were mostly using knives (diff. 4 in our edition) and boosting it with either Forces damage or Life damage. (An alternative, and more coincidental, tactic is to use Entropy to boost your accuracy while using a low-accuracy, high-damage weapon.)
Also, it's useful to have proficiency in something other than firearms if you might go to a realm where firearms don't work. I generally tried to have at least 3 dots in both Firearms and Melee (or Brawl/Do, depending on character), so I could fight effectively in a techno-realm or a magical realm.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You don't really need it at 3, but I've heard it is generally recommended for a few reasons
1) it is hard to get off major effects without at least 2 successes, so having only 2 dice makes that difficult. Maybe this isn't true with all Spheres, but it is with at least some
2) from a character-optimization viewpoint, it generally costs less points to boost things via bonus points at char-gen than to use experience points in-game (at least for rank 3+). So starting at Arete 3 and with a Sphere at 3 makes it so that you are a competent caster and very good with at least one Sphere. It can take a long time to get the experience for that in-game. Also, training time (if enforced by DM) is longer for higher-ranked stuff, so you can learn more, more quickly in-game if you already have your heavy expenditures done.


Ok, so Arte 3 is a good investment.



Personally, I recommend at least Dexterity 4, Stamina 3 for stats.
Willpower as high as you can afford to go.
Decent Dodge and decent aiming (Melee, Firearms, or if you plan to hurl fireballs or something like that, Occult or whatever--ask your DM).

Interesting. Are social skills useful in Mage the Ascension?



Arete 3 and a Sphere that is really useful at 3. Combat-wise, I see Spheres getting really good at:
Correspondence -- 3 can teleport yourself. Good for escapes.
Entropy -- 2 is good for boosting accuracy coincidentally, but all-in-all more a utility Sphere. A trip to Vegas winning just enough to stay below the Technocracy's radar could be wise.
Life -- 2 to heal yourself, or 3 to heal allies or harm enemies. Life 3 is rather handy.
Forces -- 2 is generally good enough for boosting the kinetic energy to your mundane attacks.
Matter -- depends on DM rulings, but Matter 2 to turn whatever-into-acid can deal damage. Very useful utility-wise, or make gold/diamonds to sell to pawn shops for cash without the Technocracy noticing.
Mind -- Terrible for damage. Awesome utility. Mind 3 lets you read minds pretty well & do some damage.
Prime -- very useful utility stuff, but generally secondary to other Spheres.
Spirit -- summoning allies is really good, if you have good allies. Ask DM if you need the Ally background.
Time -- although almost always paradoxical, Time 3 Haste is brutally effective if your mundane damage is good. If you plan to scry the past, ask your DM how easy it is for someone in the past to notice and thus kill you by acting differently and thus giving you 'dox for inadvertently changing the past.

So I err towards Life 3 and Forces 2 as standards, with others as I have room for or it makes sense for the character build.
BUT my group was rather char-op (even though we still really cared about the story, too), so this isn't necessarily needed and might be advice you'd prefer to avoid. And, of course, have whatever Skills are needed for your paradigm or just what you want for a fun character.

It sounds like nearly every sphere is useful.



A sorta downside of oWoD character-generation is that it effectively awards focusing on being good at a few things, since the bonus-point/xp cost ratio is not balanced. If I recall correctly (and 20th Anniversary didn't revise it greatly), it costs the same bonus points to go to Sphere 4 as it does to Sphere 2. But xp costs are way higher.

More than a few systems reward specialization, if I recall.



another combat note, if you are using Forces to boost your damage, it generally matters more that you hit than how much raw damage your physical attack does (since Forces will add damage.) Thus, using a weapon with a low difficulty to-hit is more worthwhile than a weapon that has a lot of damage dice. By end-game, we were mostly using knives (diff. 4 in our edition) and boosting it with either Forces damage or Life damage. (An alternative, and more coincidental, tactic is to use Entropy to boost your accuracy while using a low-accuracy, high-damage weapon.)
Also, it's useful to have proficiency in something other than firearms if you might go to a realm where firearms don't work. I generally tried to have at least 3 dots in both Firearms and Melee (or Brawl/Do, depending on character), so I could fight effectively in a techno-realm or a magical realm.

Thanks for the info!

[JeenLeen]

Interesting. Are social skills useful in Mage the Ascension?


Like most games, it probably depends on the GM.

Mage games can be heavy on politics between mages (like trading favors, handling dislike between factions, etc.). And of course there's times you want Sleepers as allies, or persuade some vamp to leave you alone by words instead of violence. How much that depends on the stats you have (e.g., your character) and how much it depends on a well-reasoned words (e.g., your skill as a player) depends on the GM.
That said, I'd recommend having at least one player with decent Charisma and Appearance, and some social Skills. On the other hand, Appearance 2-3 is probably the safest, since too high or too low and you are easily recognizable, which is bad when the Technocracy (and/or cops) are after you.

I don't know what the skill list is for 20th Anniversary edition, but if there's something like Etiquette, that could be used both for social skills and as part of a focus for Spirit: using proper etiquette to show respect to and negotiate with umbrood allies. (Though some DMs might rule that is Lore, or Occult, or something else. Skills seem somewhat vague, fluid, and redundant in some oWoD systems... I hope that's cleaned up a bit in your edition.)


It sounds like nearly every sphere is useful.
That is true. A lot of it depends on how the DM rules some things and what playstyle you enjoy. If your group is good at synergizing, you can cover a lot of bases even with a few Spheres.

A boon of Forces above the damage it can deal is its utility. In Mage, Forces covers both positive forces (heat, kinetic energy, light, etc.) as well as negative energy (silence, darkness, etc.). So you can do things like increase silence or decrease sound to make yourself more stealthy. Or even weave light to be invisible. I tend to emphasize Forces and Life first, since those seem the most useful for staying alive and making enemies dead, but, yeah, all of them have value.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Like most games, it probably depends on the GM.

Mage games can be heavy on politics between mages (like trading favors, handling dislike between factions, etc.). And of course there's times you want Sleepers as allies, or persuade some vamp to leave you alone by words instead of violence. How much that depends on the stats you have (e.g., your character) and how much it depends on a well-reasoned words (e.g., your skill as a player) depends on the GM.
That said, I'd recommend having at least one player with decent Charisma and Appearance, and some social Skills. On the other hand, Appearance 2-3 is probably the safest, since too high or too low and you are easily recognizable, which is bad when the Technocracy (and/or cops) are after you.

That's about what I expected.



I don't know what the skill list is for 20th Anniversary edition, but if there's something like Etiquette, that could be used both for social skills and as part of a focus for Spirit: using proper etiquette to show respect to and negotiate with umbrood allies. (Though some DMs might rule that is Lore, or Occult, or something else. Skills seem somewhat vague, fluid, and redundant in some oWoD systems... I hope that's cleaned up a bit in your edition.)

From what I've seen, there are quite a few redundant rules in M20.



That is true. A lot of it depends on how the DM rules some things and what playstyle you enjoy. If your group is good at synergizing, you can cover a lot of bases even with a few Spheres.

A boon of Forces above the damage it can deal is its utility. In Mage, Forces covers both positive forces (heat, kinetic energy, light, etc.) as well as negative energy (silence, darkness, etc.). So you can do things like increase silence or decrease sound to make yourself more stealthy. Or even weave light to be invisible. I tend to emphasize Forces and Life first, since those seem the most useful for staying alive and making enemies dead, but, yeah, all of them have value.

I get the feeling a lot of players think of Forces as a fireball dispenser and not much else.

[lightningcat]

Unless things have greatly changed between Revised an M20, then that break point between Arete 2 and 3 is actually fairly significant. My first mage stated with Arete 2, and once he got to 3 (after years of playing) he became significantly more powerful. Although he also had 2 in each sphere, and started working for 3 in each.
Versitility makes a mage a lot more powerful then almost anything else. Imagination and planning are the other major factors.
Mages are simply humans if you catch them off guard, so they do their best to never be caught that way. This can be seen as paranoia in some, but not always.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Unless things have greatly changed between Revised an M20, then that break point between Arete 2 and 3 is actually fairly significant. My first mage stated with Arete 2, and once he got to 3 (after years of playing) he became significantly more powerful. Although he also had 2 in each sphere, and started working for 3 in each.
Versitility makes a mage a lot more powerful then almost anything else. Imagination and planning are the other major factors.
Mages are simply humans if you catch them off guard, so they do their best to never be caught that way. This can be seen as paranoia in some, but not always.

Ok, so raising Arete makes a huge difference, I'll remember that.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Considering how many different methods there are for reducing difficulty, and that building up successes with extended rolls is possible through rituals, I don't really think it's as important as these guys are making it out to be. The difference between Arete 2 and 3 really only shows itself when you're creating effects on the fly with little planning or forethought. A smart and careful player can find ways to make most effects coincidental and/or stack difficulty reductions to the point that most Arete difficulties are 3 or 4. A ritual that takes you 20 minutes per roll could have you easily seeing 4 or 5 successes in an hour.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Considering how many different methods there are for reducing difficulty, and that building up successes with extended rolls is possible through rituals, I don't really think it's as important as these guys are making it out to be. The difference between Arete 2 and 3 really only shows itself when you're creating effects on the fly with little planning or forethought. A smart and careful player can find ways to make most effects coincidental and/or stack difficulty reductions to the point that most Arete difficulties are 3 or 4. A ritual that takes you 20 minutes per roll could have you easily seeing 4 or 5 successes in an hour.

Duly noted.

[JeenLeen]

I get the feeling a lot of players think of Forces as a fireball dispenser and not much else.

One sorta-trick with Forces is to try to coincidentally boost your damage. Our GM ruled that, when we cast a spell, we could choose to go all-out (e.g., use all successes for maximum effect) or choose a cap. If fighting mundanes who would give a lot of witness 'dox, we would often limit our Forces effects to add just a couple extra damage. That way it seems like a really good shot or stab, but no something so likely to cause Paradox as a handgun blasting a guy in half or a knife stab causing your head to explode.

I think limiting the power of our spells was possibly the rules as written, at least assuming our paradigm gave us some way to control the amount of force we tried to increase.

On mundane combat notes: a few grenades are a good way to open combat, if you can get the connections to obtain such. And smoke bombs are a nice way to limit witness Paradox, if you need to do something like teleport or heal. (Though check with your DM if mundanes seeing your bleeding horribly, then seeing you again in 30 seconds perfectly healed would count as generating witness 'dox or not.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

One sorta-trick with Forces is to try to coincidentally boost your damage. Our GM ruled that, when we cast a spell, we could choose to go all-out (e.g., use all successes for maximum effect) or choose a cap. If fighting mundanes who would give a lot of witness 'dox, we would often limit our Forces effects to add just a couple extra damage. That way it seems like a really good shot or stab, but no something so likely to cause Paradox as a handgun blasting a guy in half or a knife stab causing your head to explode.

I think limiting the power of our spells was possibly the rules as written, at least assuming our paradigm gave us some way to control the amount of force we tried to increase.

That seems like good way to use Force.



On mundane combat notes: a few grenades are a good way to open combat, if you can get the connections to obtain such. And smoke bombs are a nice way to limit witness Paradox, if you need to do something like teleport or heal. (Though check with your DM if mundanes seeing your bleeding horribly, then seeing you again in 30 seconds perfectly healed would count as generating witness 'dox or not.)

On a similar note, M20 lists the damage dice for grenade launchers as 400 and 600 respectively.

Typo, perhaps?

[fishyfishyfishy]

You must have an older version. If you legally purchased the pdf on DriveThruRPG you can download a post-errata version that was released after the kickstarter backers were able to suggest edits.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You must have an older version. If you legally purchased the pdf on DriveThruRPG you can download a post-errata version that was released after the kickstarter backers were able to suggest edits.

Ah, ok that makes sense.

[fishyfishyfishy]

On the subject of Forces, it is by far the most versatile Sphere at the first 2 dots. After that it's utility slows down a bit, but it still remains useful. I highly recommend taking it if you want to pull off classic wizardry effects.

[ColorBlindNinja]

On the subject of Forces, it is by far the most versatile Sphere at the first 2 dots. After that it's utility slows down a bit, but it still remains useful. I highly recommend taking it if you want to pull off classic wizardry effects.

Ok, what spheres really come into their own at higher dots?

[JeenLeen]

A random thing I remembered: technomancers generally can teleport into the Net (the internet is a techno-spirit realm) with Correspondence 3 and an internet hookup. You can go there mentally with just Corr 2 and some VR gear. If you have a loose enough paradigm, you might be able to teleport there without extensive foci.
Most more 'magical'-foci mages can't so easily access the Net. Though in my game most decided they believed it was a spirit realm so it got easier for them to access it.


Ok, what spheres really come into their own at higher dots?

I've had to read your version's rules on what rank of Sphere does what to talk in detail, but I think Matter, Entropy, and Prime gain a lot more at rank 4/5. Correspondence and Time can probably do some really crazy stuff, but I think its usefulness was limited (in my opinion) so I don't recall it.

Maybe Mind, too. I forget whether Mind 3 or 4 lets you start altering others' memories, but that seems safer than Entropy's use.

If I recall correctly, Matter 4 lets you create heterogenous materials (so complex machines, bombs, etc.) and Matter 5 lets you create legendary materials (like magical metals).

Prime 4/5 lets you start effecting how reality operates with certain things by changing their essential nature. Once you can impact Life patterns (5?), you can really screw up people or deal a lot of hard-to-avoid agg damage.

Entropy 4/5 lets you do stuff like tear someone apart by decaying them. You can also manipulate their mind in subtle (and not really controllable) ways that introducing chaos or stability into their thoughts, or do Geas-like stuff.

Correspondence 4 and Spirit 4 is when you can start teleporting others, so that is useful if you need it. BUT I found it generally worked okay for most of the party to get Corr 3. And one guy with Spirit 2 and a node can cause a Shallowing, temporarily eliminating the boundary between earth and the spirit realm, so you can just walk through (though it can attract dangerous spirits.)

In the game I was in, we were generally happy with rank 3/2 between a lot of Spheres, and rank 4 seemed (except in rare cases) not worth it. It was easier to trade favors to get some Matter 4/5 stuff, and Life 3 can do agg damage to others (although not as well as Prime).


I put this here as an example of how you might need to talk to your DM about what rank of Sphere can do what.

In my book's chapter on Prime, it notes that Prime 5 is needed to affect Life Patterns. However, in the sample rotes, there is one Prime 1 rote that manipulates a person's Life pattern.

For sake of argument, let's say the rote is weak enough to count as Rank 1 spell, but that's metaphysically inconsistent with what Prime can do at rank 1.

Not sure if this edition cleaned that up or not. But if it hasn't, you should probably decide as a group what rules trump rule, and if metaphysical internal consistency matters more OR if the power of spells for ranks being balanced matters more.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A random thing I remembered: technomancers generally can teleport into the Net (the internet is a techno-spirit realm) with Correspondence 3 and an internet hookup. You can go there mentally with just Corr 2 and some VR gear. If you have a loose enough paradigm, you might be able to teleport there without extensive foci.
Most more 'magical'-foci mages can't so easily access the Net. Though in my game most decided they believed it was a spirit realm so it got easier for them to access it.

If I recall, M20 has a Data Sphere for the Net, and influencing computers in general.



I've had to read your version's rules on what rank of Sphere does what to talk in detail, but I think Matter, Entropy, and Prime gain a lot more at rank 4/5. Correspondence and Time can probably do some really crazy stuff, but I think its usefulness was limited (in my opinion) so I don't recall it.

Maybe Mind, too. I forget whether Mind 3 or 4 lets you start altering others' memories, but that seems safer than Entropy's use.

If I recall correctly, Matter 4 lets you create heterogenous materials (so complex machines, bombs, etc.) and Matter 5 lets you create legendary materials (like magical metals).

Prime 4/5 lets you start effecting how reality operates with certain things by changing their essential nature. Once you can impact Life patterns (5?), you can really screw up people or deal a lot of hard-to-avoid agg damage.

Entropy 4/5 lets you do stuff like tear someone apart by decaying them. You can also manipulate their mind in subtle (and not really controllable) ways that introducing chaos or stability into their thoughts, or do Geas-like stuff.

Correspondence 4 and Spirit 4 is when you can start teleporting others, so that is useful if you need it. BUT I found it generally worked okay for most of the party to get Corr 3. And one guy with Spirit 2 and a node can cause a Shallowing, temporarily eliminating the boundary between earth and the spirit realm, so you can just walk through (though it can attract dangerous spirits.)

In the game I was in, we were generally happy with rank 3/2 between a lot of Spheres, and rank 4 seemed (except in rare cases) not worth it. It was easier to trade favors to get some Matter 4/5 stuff, and Life 3 can do agg damage to others (although not as well as Prime).

Thanks, I'll remember that.




I put this here as an example of how you might need to talk to your DM about what rank of Sphere can do what.

In my book's chapter on Prime, it notes that Prime 5 is needed to affect Life Patterns. However, in the sample rotes, there is one Prime 1 rote that manipulates a person's Life pattern.

For sake of argument, let's say the rote is weak enough to count as Rank 1 spell, but that's metaphysically inconsistent with what Prime can do at rank 1.

Not sure if this edition cleaned that up or not. But if it hasn't, you should probably decide as a group what rules trump rule, and if metaphysical internal consistency matters more OR if the power of spells for ranks being balanced matters more.


Yeah, M20 seems to have cleared up a lot of that ambiguity.

[Lapak]

Prime always struck me as the one that had the most dramatic step up from 3 to 4/5. Making magic permanent, canceling Paradox, and building your own source of power aren’t just ‘lower tiers but more so,’ they are introducing whole new elements to the game.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Prime always struck me as the one that had the most dramatic step up from 3 to 4/5. Making magic permanent, canceling Paradox, and building your own source of power aren’t just ‘lower tiers but more so,’ they are introducing whole new elements to the game.

I've heard something to that effect about Prime.

Also, that bit about nullifying paradox sounds kinda broken.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Prime always struck me as the one that had the most dramatic step up from 3 to 4/5. Making magic permanent, canceling Paradox, and building your own source of power aren’t just ‘lower tiers but more so,’ they are introducing whole new elements to the game.
I agree with that. Prime has such a dramatic difference between the lower levels and the higher levels.

Edit: Only a master can counter Paradox, and only for themselves. It costs a point of Quintessence per point of Paradox to be nullified and it's something you have to prepare ahead of time. I'd say it's in line with the other 5 dot abilities of the Spheres.

The difference in 4 and 5 from the lower levels is huge with every sphere. At those ranks you can do some incredible things.

[ColorBlindNinja]

One issue I noticed about Mage the Ascension in general, seems to be that players (particularly from a D&D background ) aren't certain what their characters should be doing.

Any ideas as to how to resolve this issue (strong character goals, perhaps)?

[fishyfishyfishy]

That's the job of the Storyteller. They're supposed to provide a framework for the players to work with. The players should also have goals and desires for their characters that can provide story.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That's the job of the Storyteller. They're supposed to provide a framework for the players to work with. The players should also have goals and desires for their characters that can provide story.

The player's characters having goals they want to accomplish, strikes me as essential here.

[Lapak]

The player's characters having goals they want to accomplish, strikes me as essential here.
If they're having trouble forming personal goals, I find it's often helpful with players new to the game to remind them that their character's Paradigm isn't just how they fuel their magic, it's literally how they believe the world works. An Akashic mage believes in abandoning desire, in the fundamentally illusory nature of the world. A member of the Cult of Ecstasy believes that intense experiences allow them to transcend above the ordinary world. Hermetic mages believe that the world operates according to the rules and bindings and True Words that define their tradition, and so on. Once a player gets into that headspace it's sometimes easier for them to decide what it is their character wants to accomplish.

[fishyfishyfishy]

It plays a factor, yes. I would say it's still up to the ST to make use of those things.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If they're having trouble forming personal goals, I find it's often helpful with players new to the game to remind them that their character's Paradigm isn't just how they fuel their magic, it's literally how they believe the world works. An Akashic mage believes in abandoning desire, in the fundamentally illusory nature of the world. A member of the Cult of Ecstasy believes that intense experiences allow them to transcend above the ordinary world. Hermetic mages believe that the world operates according to the rules and bindings and True Words that define their tradition, and so on. Once a player gets into that headspace it's sometimes easier for them to decide what it is their character wants to accomplish.

That makes sense.


It plays a factor, yes. I would say it's still up to the ST to make use of those things.

So, dropping plot hooks and such.

[JeenLeen]

In the Mage game I was in, the game moved forward through a combination of
1) our characters had some idea of how to achieve Ascension and/or some goal they were working towards due to their worldview
and
2) there was an overarching plot the DM had, and that led to plothooks for various quests and missions eventually tied to saving (er, sorta) the world.

For some examples of #1:
-a Euthanatos trying to find those who needed killing, but also those worth trying to redeem, and struggling for the balance of giving out 'good death' without falling into Jhor
-a Virtual Adept reality hacker (believing the world was a video game, and mages are player characters with hopes to Ascend to real life) who tried to maximize his score (follow plot hooks, do good mage-y things, not kill mundanes needlessly even though they are just NPCs) in hopes of achieving Ascension
-a mage dedicated to the idea of cooperation with other supernaturals, trying to find alliances with the others (vampire, fey, etc.) in town
-a Son of Ether wanting to work on his mad science, hoping for needs for more machines and opportunities to show them off
-an Akashi whose order is devoted to protecting a given area, dedicated to protecting the city the team was centered in

We'd spend time pursuing our own goals, as well as working towards the overarching plot the game was following.

[ColorBlindNinja]

-a Virtual Adept reality hacker (believing the world was a video game, and mages are player characters with hopes to Ascend to real life) who tried to maximize his score (follow plot hooks, do good mage-y things, not kill mundanes needlessly even though they are just NPCs) in hopes of achieving Ascension

That is hilarious, I just might have to steal that concept for a future game.

[JeenLeen]

That is hilarious, I just might have to steal that concept for a future game.

He was probably my favorite character ever from any game I've played in. He went by the name 'Meta', as in metagaming. As part of his paradigm, he believed that magic was hacking, and all other paradigms must be hacks that somehow worked indirectly. Thus, he tended to integrate other, more mystical foci when he could, which enabled a lot of variation in foci. I had a fun engagement when we met a demon (as in Demon: The Fallen, not Nephandi demons), which he decided were probably PCs like mages are, and he was debating about unlocking prayer as a valid foci by either becoming a thrall to the demon and letting his faith be channeled through it OR converting to Catholicism under tutelage from a Chorister and thereby use a traditional deity. He eventually decided on the latter, since he could always trade part of his soul away later on if religion didn't work out. Well, I had decided on it, but he died before actually trying.

He wound up coming off as a real sociopath, since he sincerely believed there was no good reason not to kill mundanes except that it would hurt his reputation with less-enlightened mages and might impact some Morality or Reputation stats. I did play him strongly as not killing folk for no reason, but if we discussed plans, I had fun with him just getting annoyed when moral reasons came up for killing or not killing mundanes.

Also, as a game-based character, he believed in looting enemies. This wound up with him taking a trophy of some sort from every enemy he killed. It was usually something reasonable, like a small weapon they carried or some foci they had, but it wound up a couple times looking real creepy, like when he debated taking the time to grab a heavy axe when that was the only thing an enemy had, or when he pondered taking the claw of a Black Spiral Dancer werewolf. Definitely got comments as it being like the trophies a serial killer might collect.

He'd make a good Marauder.

[ColorBlindNinja]

He was probably my favorite character ever from any game I've played in. He went by the name 'Meta', as in metagaming. As part of his paradigm, he believed that magic was hacking, and all other paradigms must be hacks that somehow worked indirectly. Thus, he tended to integrate other, more mystical foci when he could, which enabled a lot of variation in foci. I had a fun engagement when we met a demon (as in Demon: The Fallen, not Nephandi demons), which he decided were probably PCs like mages are, and he was debating about unlocking prayer as a valid foci by either becoming a thrall to the demon and letting his faith be channeled through it OR converting to Catholicism under tutelage from a Chorister and thereby use a traditional deity. He eventually decided on the latter, since he could always trade part of his soul away later on if religion didn't work out. Well, I had decided on it, but he died before actually trying.

He wound up coming off as a real sociopath, since he sincerely believed there was no good reason not to kill mundanes except that it would hurt his reputation with less-enlightened mages and might impact some Morality or Reputation stats. I did play him strongly as not killing folk for no reason, but if we discussed plans, I had fun with him just getting annoyed when moral reasons came up for killing or not killing mundanes.

Also, as a game-based character, he believed in looting enemies. This wound up with him taking a trophy of some sort from every enemy he killed. It was usually something reasonable, like a small weapon they carried or some foci they had, but it wound up a couple times looking real creepy, like when he debated taking the time to grab a heavy axe when that was the only thing an enemy had, or when he pondered taking the claw of a Black Spiral Dancer werewolf. Definitely got comments as it being like the trophies a serial killer might collect.

He'd make a good Marauder.

Sounds like a really interesting character.

[Skippy The Ripp]

Hi! I have a little silly question about the combat system:

When is your turn, you have to either choose to attack or to do a defensive action, is that right?

So, if you are attacked before your turn, you can't defend agains said attack and if in your turn you choose to do a defensive action, said defence applies to every attack that comes until your next turn, right?

[Braininthejar2]

I don't know how much different 20th anniversary is from old mage - I hope my input will still be relevant.

1 For example, in the old days, entropy * could be used to boost damage by sensing weak spots, making a starting Euthanatos with a gun a surprisingly deadly opponent. Is that still the case in your rules?

2 Don't underestimate the first dots - that's sensory magic, used to detect stuff. Since you can decide spell effects on the fly rather than casting from a list, every wizard is a Batman wizard if he knows what he's dealing with.

3 If you've seen any of the Final Destination movies... beware the murderhobo with entropy magic. The whole sessions can devolve into black comedy at the expense of the NPCs.

4 Any sphere can be used in a broken way if the player is inventive, but most stories on the net involve a smartass with matter *** and a science book: the difficulty of producing a given substance with magic takes neither toxicity nor flammability into account.

5 Spheres that get much better at high levels... time and prime has already been mentioned. I'd add entropy. Rotting someone to death seems impressive, but the real jewel in my edition was, entropy **** could do contingency spells.

6 Ways to mitigate damage by sphere, if you do have to fight:
- prime. might be the only one that doesn't help here.
- correspondence. do your attack from a block away
- forces. a forcefield seems like a no-brainer, but there are funnier ways to do it, such as messing with Newton's third law to redirect kinetic energy.
- matter. super-advanced bullet-proof vests are practically static reality nowadays.
- life. boost yourself to peak physical condition. even bashing soak helps sometimes. Just don't overdo it - improvements over human limits cause a constant drain to your resources, and you really don't want paradox to mess up a spell that modifies your metabolism.
- mind. cause other to overlook you while you prepare your ambush. mess with your own perception of pain to mitigate wound penalties.
- time. he who acts first,or twice a turn, can shoot his enemies before they can shoot him. Also, how do hasted and non-hasted objects interact in regards to the conservation of energy? If you can fit it into your paradigm, you might conceivably reduce damage by slowing enemy bullets.
- entropy. get lucky at dodging. get a lucky amulet that keeps stopping bullets. get a defensive entropy aura that causes enemy guns to misfire.
- spirit. the sky is the limit. (or rather, what the storyteller will allow) summon minions to fight for you. summon minions to use their powers on your behalf - how about awakening the spirit of your bullet-proof vest? Spirits follow their nature - now it considers it its duty to shield its wearer, and with some side-questing you could give it its own powers to defend you with. (just watch the gauntlet levels - such protection is not appropriate everywhere). Finally, if you dare, you might go for controlled possession, and channel some entity that can soak lethal damage with toughness.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Hi! I have a little silly question about the combat system:

When is your turn, you have to either choose to attack or to do a defensive action, is that right?

So, if you are attacked before your turn, you can't defend agains said attack and if in your turn you choose to do a defensive action, said defence applies to every attack that comes until your next turn, right?

Well first you declare actions, from lowest initiative to highest. This gives the highest initiative the advantage of knowing what others intend to do with their turn, and choose their actions accordingly. If they choose an action that disrupts a lower initiative, such as moving out of reach of a melee attack or a defensive action like a dodge ghat scores more successes than the attack against them, it prevents that other action from happening. In this circumstance the interrupted individual can roll Willpower, or spend a temporary point of Willpower to change their action on their turn.

In M20 there is a difference between a dodge action, and a desperate defense action. With a dodge action you have the option of attempting multiple actions and the dodge only applies to a single attack. A desperate defense action prevents any other actions on your behalf but applies against all attacks made against you that turn.

I hope this helps clarify things for you.

[Skippy The Ripp]

Well first you declare actions, from lowest initiative to highest. This gives the highest initiative the advantage of knowing what others intend to do with their turn, and choose their actions accordingly. If they choose an action that disrupts a lower initiative, such as moving out of reach of a melee attack or a defensive action like a dodge ghat scores more successes than the attack against them, it prevents that other action from happening. In this circumstance the interrupted individual can roll Willpower, or spend a temporary point of Willpower to change their action on their turn.

In M20 there is a difference between a dodge action, and a desperate defense action. With a dodge action you have the option of attempting multiple actions and the dodge only applies to a single attack. A desperate defense action prevents any other actions on your behalf but applies against all attacks made against you that turn.

I hope this helps clarify things for you.

YES! That makes so much sense, thank you so much for your answer :smallsmile: