Uncanny Forethought Theurge

[Anthrowhale]

Uncanny Forethought is a feat that says

...you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know.
This is typically applied to a wizard since the spell mastery prerequisite requires wizard 1 but the scope of the 'known spell' is unconstrained... which naturally leads to fun.

A known spell (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=K) by default is confined to prepared arcane casters (i.e. wizard/wu jen), but many other classes either explicitly know spells or learn spells (with an implication of knowing). Notably, Druids and Clerics do not know spells.

The most obvious way to take advantage of this is via something like Archivist 1/Wizard 19. Such a character could know any divine spell of any level by successfully copying into the prayerbook. Surprise the whole party when you go nuclear with Erupt then cast Mass Heal.

Also interesting is the alternate approach where you use a 1-level wizard dip plus a spell slot from another class. Blighter, Divine Crusader, Ur-Priest, and Apostle of Peace all look more compelling with the wizard spell list (and possibly more) attached. Note that alternate classes must be able to prepare spells:
When preparing your daily allotment of spells... Even a simple Wizard 1/Cleric 19 looks pretty interesting.

This approach obviously lacks the additional spell slots of a more typical theurge and you are limited to Int-modifier spells per day, but the investment is low enough (2 feats + a one class level) that it seems like a good option in many cases. Comparing with a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant you get fewer spontaneous cleric spells/day, but they start as early as level 2 making it a much more relevant approach.

Update: There is one potential issue (discussed below): It's not clear whether the spell is cast as if from the class providing the slot or the class providing knowledge of the spell. If it's the class providing the slot, all is good, but if it's the class knowing the spell then the caster level is extremely low (-1) when using Uncanny Forethought. At least some parts of the rules indicate that you cannot cast a spell without a class-dependent minimum caster level that scales with the spell level. To achieve such a significant caster level increase there are several approaches available, each of which costs additional resources.

A Wizard 1/Cleric n could use Persistent (Greater) Consumptive Field to increase the caster level. A vanilla casting would could add caster level+9, to which Greater Consumptive Field could add another +14. This requires 3 extra feats, but you get persistomancy as a side effect.
An Archivist 1/Wizard n could use a Circle magic class feature from Red Wizard, Halruaan Elder, or Hathran in the Fearun setting. A Wizard 1/Archivist n could use Hathran. This requires 5 class levels and a 1-3 feat tax but you get caster level 40 and 20th level spells as a side effect.
Any spellcasting class could potentially use the Circle Magic feat (Ghostwalk) to increase caster level to 20. The cost is 1 feat and patron diety: Galedros.
(Weckar's solution) A Wizard 1/Divine n or Archivist 1/Wizard n could take 10 levels of Geomancer to swap in the caster level (and casting stat) since a Geomancer can
...mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell and caster level is a parameter. This effectively requires a 1-2 feat tax to get 2nd level spells in the off class for early entry + 10 class levels of Geomancer.
An Archivist 1/Wizard n that is chaotic or evil could take the Aligned Spellcaster ACF (Dragon #357) and become an Abyssal Specialist (DotU) then take the Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325) to add caster levels together for all but [lawful] or [good] spells. This costs a familiar, a school of spells, and 1 feat.

[Darrin]

Just something I wanted to add: Spell Mastery can be taken more than once to add more spells available for Uncanny Forethought. Throw in a couple Chameleon levels, and you can use the bonus feat to switch around your daily load of spells available for spontaneous casting.

[Buufreak]

Just something I wanted to add: Spell Mastery can be taken more than once to add more spells available for Uncanny Forethought. Throw in a couple Chameleon levels, and you can use the bonus feat to switch around your daily load of spells available for spontaneous casting.

... Or, do what everyone else does, and cast all spells as full actions. If I am reading OP correctly, that should let you cast anything from wizard, cleric, and druid list spontaneously.

[Zanos]

Arcane spellsurge is also helpful. Practiced spellcaster can offset that -2 from uncanny forethought as well.

[Covenant12]

Honestly very good catch, the RAW wording seems to be very clear this would work.

Two feats and a caster level is a non-trivial expense, but even giving a wizard several spontaneous slots is a nice benefit. The ability to have vital debuff removers like restoration, remove disease, remove curse, revivify/revenance plus divine utility spells and buffs spontaneously is incredible, and could be vital for small parties.

Not sure what happens with Wizard 1/Cleric 19. Is fear an arcane spell for ASF? Does it key off Int or Wis? Archivist 1/Wizard 19 this matters very little, and is more flexible but less tanky.

The key point is that Wizards/Archivists can record spells in their spellbooks/prayerbooks they can't yet memorize or cast. It certainly looks like the only requirements are Int 10+spell level and a spellcraft check, they can be then said to "know" them for the uncanny forethought feat.

[Anthrowhale]

Just something I wanted to add: Spell Mastery can be taken more than once to add more spells available for Uncanny Forethought. Throw in a couple Chameleon levels, and you can use the bonus feat to switch around your daily load of spells available for spontaneous casting.
This might matter in combination with Dweomerkeeper Supernatural Spell which requires a standard action. Spell Mastery also seems to potentially apply to any known spell so you could plausibly get off a Supernatural[True Resurrection]. The Dweomerkeeper Mantle of Spells ability appears to also be compatible with Uncanny Forethought so any spells you often want to cast from the offclass can become a spontaneous spell.


... Or, do what everyone else does, and cast all spells as full actions. If I am reading OP correctly, that should let you cast anything from wizard, cleric, and druid list spontaneously.
If I'm using search spells (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php) properly, a Archivist 1/Wizard 19 can learn and hence know to spontaneously cast all but 80 Bard spells, 50 Wu Jen spells, 7 assassin spells, 5? sorcerer-only spells, and 1 hexblade spell without any scribe scroll shenanigans or variant rules.


Arcane spellsurge is also helpful. Practiced spellcaster can offset that -2 from uncanny forethought as well.
Due to the wording of Arcane Spellsurge
This spell doesn't stack with any other effect that reduces a spell's casting time. this only works when the original spell had a full action or lower spellcasting time. Nevertheless, that still seems like a potentially great way to double your spells/round as a wizard.



Two feats and a caster level is a non-trivial expense, but even giving a wizard several spontaneous slots is a nice benefit. The ability to have vital debuff removers like restoration, remove disease, remove curse, revivify/revenance plus divine utility spells and buffs spontaneously is incredible, and could be vital for small parties.

It seems difficult to cover the full range of buffs given the limited spells/day from Uncanny Forethought, but the spontaneous use of 're' spells seems fantastic.


Not sure what happens with Wizard 1/Cleric 19. Is fear an arcane spell for ASF? Does it key off Int or Wis? Archivist 1/Wizard 19 this matters very little, and is more flexible but less tanky.

That's a good question. Uncanny Forethought says
The spell is resolved as normal... which means... normal for a wizard that knows the spell or normal for a cleric that casts it? If pressed, I'd probably go with 'normal for the class knowing the spell', as that seems less abusable. Hence, ASF would apply and the save DC is based on Int.


The key point is that Wizards/Archivists can record spells in their spellbooks/prayerbooks they can't yet memorize or cast. It certainly looks like the only requirements are Int 10+spell level and a spellcraft check, they can be then said to "know" them for the uncanny forethought feat.
You need Int 17 for Uncanny Forethought, but otherwise yes.

[Zanos]

I don't see how Arcane Spellsurge not stacking with other reducers has anything to do with the original spells casting time. The only reducer you're using is Spellsurge, Uncanny Forethought is increasing the casting time. So you can cast a Forethought spell as a standard with spellsurge than a normal standard action spell with a swift.

[Covenant12]

I don't see how Arcane Spellsurge not stacking with other reducers has anything to do with the original spells casting time. The only reducer you're using is Spellsurge, Uncanny Forethought is increasing the casting time. So you can cast a Forethought spell as a standard with spellsurge than a normal standard action spell with a swift.Yeah, arcane spellsurge even calls out sorceror using a metamagic spell as a resulting standard action. It doesn't stack with other reducers, but it reduces the result from full-round to standard action. Forethought spells should be treated the same as sorceror metamagic spells.

Practiced spellcaster also negates the penalty, as well as the likely level loss from multi-classing. That's a third feat that isn't empower spell or quicken spell (or a PrC requirement), but I still like this better than a Cle3/Wiz3/MTheurge10 build.

[weckar]

Not sure what happens with Wizard 1/Cleric 19. Is fear an arcane spell for ASF? Does it key off Int or Wis? Archivist 1/Wizard 19 this matters very little, and is more flexible but less tanky.

As we are Theurging anyway, Alternate Source Spell or Geomancer (Advancing only Cleric) would resolve this in the most favorable way anyway.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't see how Arcane Spellsurge not stacking with other reducers has anything to do with the original spells casting time. The only reducer you're using is Spellsurge, Uncanny Forethought is increasing the casting time. So you can cast a Forethought spell as a standard with spellsurge than a normal standard action spell with a swift.

I agree. I was pointing out that Arcane Spellsurge + Uncanny Forethought would not work for Ice Assassin.


As we are Theurging anyway, Alternate Source Spell or Geomancer (Advancing only Cleric) would resolve this in the most favorable way anyway.

I'm having a doubt related to Covenant12's question. There are two possibilities.

A spell is resolved "as normal" for the class creating the spell slot. A Wizard 1/Cleric 19 casts Fear as a Divine Spell with a caster level of 17 and save DC based on Wisdom.
A spell is resolved "as normal" for the class knowing the spell. A Wizard 1/Cleric 19 casts Fear as an Arcane Spell with a caster level of -1 and a save DC based on Intelligence.

In the first case all is fine. In second case, you pay for MAD, suffer from ASF, and have a caster level issue. Geomancer explicitly deals with MAD and ASF, but not caster level. Geomancer should deal with that implicitly through
...mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell... since caster level is certainly a spellcasting parameter.

I don't see a definitive way to resolve 1 vs 2, and the caster level impact of 2 seems quite significant unless you use Geomancer.

[Anthrowhale]

Discussion of the caster level issue added to the OP.

[Sleven]

I thought most of this had already been discussed back when people were going over the old versatile spellcaster + wizard dip TO builds (e.g. Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 19). Might want to look at some of the stuff archived on minmax or try to use the wayback machine on the Wizards boards to see if you can't pull a few more tricks related to the subject.

EDIT: If I remember correctly, it resulted in a few interesting Ultimate Magus builds.

[Anthrowhale]

I thought most of this had already been discussed back when people were going over the old versatile spellcaster + wizard dip TO builds (e.g. Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 19). Might want to look at some of the stuff archived on minmax or try to use the wayback machine on the Wizards boards to see if you can't pull a few more tricks related to the subject.

EDIT: If I remember correctly, it resulted in a few interesting Ultimate Magus builds.

I found this (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=474.0), but it does not mention the divine caster aspect which seems pretty compelling as a wizard only has 50% of spells on list. A hypothetical Uncanny Forethought Theurge of Archivist and Wizard misses access to about 3% of spells. (Of course, you need to acquire the spells, so the truth is far less. But you can intentionally seek out the ones you want, so maybe it's not so much less in practice.) If you have other pointers please link.

[Sleven]

I found this (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=474.0), but it does not mention the divine caster aspect which seems pretty compelling as a wizard only has 50% of spells on list. A hypothetical Uncanny Forethought Theurge of Archivist and Wizard misses access to about 3% of spells. (Of course, you need to acquire the spells, so the truth is far less. But you can intentionally seek out the ones you want, so maybe it's not so much less in practice.) If you have other pointers please link.

No, the threads I had in mind were much older than that. Hmmm. My search-fu seems to be failing me at the moment (or my memory is just mixing things up with builds I've crafted before).

I don't have any links, but as far as pointers go... There's also the Wizard (or Archivist) 1 / Sorcerer 19 with Arcane Preparation. However, assuming Archivist is allowed in addition to classes like Hexer and Geomancer and feats like Alternative Source Spell and Southern Magician, I don't really see the point in mixing Archivists with anything else. It's strictly suboptimal, since, in such a setting, they can already learn divine versions of any spell ever printed (and Durthan 1 + Acorn gives them spontaneous casting free of feats and frills). Maybe you're fighting the Elder Evils? I suppose if you (for some reason) wanted a build with one of the Wizard-only classes... but then again, off the top of my head, Master Specialist? might be the only one that can't be gotten into with other classes. Specialization isn't sacred, and can be granted by certain prestige classes, so that's not a real barrier. Hell, even psionic powers and power points can be achieved by non-psions (as in, all of them), so that's something else you might want to consider adding to your build list.

As far as other pointers go, you're taking the most restrictive reading of circle magic possible. Books like Underdark, FRCS, the DMG, etc. indicate that circle magic is a type of magic used all across Faerun by a number of people and organizations beyond the ones listed. This pretty much makes circle magic free for anyone who can justify it in FR. Deep Imaskari, survivors of Netheril, and elven high mages come to mind as easy sells--feat and PrC free.

Anyways, I've probably gotten too far off topic from what you were looking for. I'll probably try to look again myself one or two more times for the discussion threads I mentioned earlier, but no guarantees.

[Anthrowhale]

I don't have any links, but as far as pointers go... There's also the Wizard (or Archivist) 1 / Sorcerer 19 with Arcane Preparation.

That's clever, but being two levels behind in spell access (one from the off class, one from the Sorcerer handicap) seems painful.


However, assuming Archivist is allowed in addition to classes like Hexer and Geomancer and feats like Alternative Source Spell and Southern Magician, I don't really see the point in mixing Archivists with anything else. It's strictly suboptimal, since, in such a setting, they can already learn divine versions of any spell ever printed (and Durthan 1 + Acorn gives them spontaneous casting free of feats and frills). Maybe you're fighting the Elder Evils? I suppose if you (for some reason) wanted a build with one of the Wizard-only classes... but then again, off the top of my head, Master Specialist? might be the only one that can't be gotten into with other classes. Specialization isn't sacred, and can be granted by certain prestige classes, so that's not a real barrier. Hell, even psionic powers and power points can be achieved by non-psions (as in, all of them), so that's something else you might want to consider adding to your build list.

It's a fair point. Depending on the game some of these may not be allowed because they are setting specific, 3.0, or Dragon magazine.


Anyways, I've probably gotten too far off topic from what you were looking for. I'll probably try to look again myself one or two more times for the discussion threads I mentioned earlier, but no guarantees.
I am interested if you find them.