How do you Storm of Vengeance?

[Schwann145]

According to a Sage Advice I just found, SoV's effects are not cumulative each round.
However, that means you're casting a 9th level spell that, with one round of exception, essentially does 1d6 damage per round for the majority of rounds you can maintain it.

That's utter trash, yeah?

However, if it is played cumulatively, that suddenly turns into an epic spell storm of "probably-too-good" proportions!

So how do you rule it?

[Jerrykhor]

It does not stack? I always thought they do.

This is why I hate Sage Advice sometimes. Do they know the meaning of additional effects? Or is additional now synonymous with changing?

Its incredibly lame that it starts off with thunder for 6 sec, thunder stops, rain for 6 sec, rain stops, then some lightning for 6 sec, etc. I mean, what kind of storm is that??

[Schwann145]

Yeah, I hear you on "additional."
I feel like that's a legacy problem though - it's been this same issue over several iterations of D&D, including Pathfinder.

I'd post a link to the SA, but I'm still apparently too new to post links. :smallsigh:

[Jerrykhor]

Its a 9th level spell, its supposed to be too good. I'd say if the effect stacks, it only starts to be really good around 3rd round anyways. Compared to Meteor Swarm, which gets all the massive damage upfront. Plus, SoV's damage types are all different every round. Its also pretty hard to use due to the ridiculous radius, requiring a very high point for the sight, and its purpose is mostly for laying siege to a town or something, rather than fighting skirmishes.

Anyway, logically, a storm should be all of those at once: Rain, thunder, lightning, hail, wind... Its just that they build up slowly.

[JellyPooga]

I've never read SoV as having cumulative effects; none of the wording indicates that it would be.

Does this make it a bad blasting spell? Yes.
Does this make it a bad spell? No.

As a blasting spell, it's pretty terrible. 2d6+1d6+10d6+2d6+1d6/turn is not that great. It takes three turns just to get to the juicy bit (10d6 vs. 6 creatures) and even that is small potatoes compared even to much lower level spells (like Fireball). The purpose of the spell is clearly not pure damage.

Storm of Vengeance is not an adventurers spell. It's a cataclysm. It has a 720ft diameter AoE. That's big enough to encompass a village or even a small township...
- Round one deals thunder damage and deafens. Everyone in town is now dead, dying or wounded and no-one can hear any cries for help. It's ok, though, buildings are largely intact and the crops are fine.
- Round two gives us a shower of acid. Oops, all the roofs are damaged or destroyed and the crops aren't doing too well. Anyone that was caught outside (with only a six-second headstart to get under cover) is now almost certainly dead.
- Round three, anyone tough enough to still be standing and thinking about fighting back (not that they could have coordinated anything, they're all deaf remember?) takes a lightning bolt to the face. Oh dear, no heroes to save the town now.
- Round four pounds the slowly dissolving roofs into so much broken pottery and thatch, flattens the crops, busts up any market stalls or anything left outside. Oh, it kicks the corpses of your victims while it's at it.
- Round five onward freezes the ground, killing off anything growing, stops anyone from getting out (they can't see and can't move fast enough), spellcasters can't cast and archers can't shoot. Oh, a nice 50mph wind disperses the shattered remains of whatever once stood there.

Within one minute, this spell effectively wipes a village from the map. One. Minute. Maximum. It'll probably do it in half that time. Meteor Swarm might destroy a couple of buildings or rout an army. Storm of Vengeance is nothing short of divine retribution. It doesn't just destroy a building or rout an army, it straight up murders the whole army and genocides a village. Oh and you can do it sat on a mountain from several miles away if you want, so long as you can see it.

This god-like level of threat aside, the "adventuring" use for SoV isn't damage, it's to set up an insanely large area in which no Ranged weapon attacks work at all, no-one can see, it's difficult terrain (yes, even for flyers; the AoE is 720ft in diameter, up to 5,000ft high and everywhere in that area is considered difficult terrain) and spellcasters have to make a concentration check every. single. round if they want to concentrate on a spell. Yes it takes 5 rounds of concentration to get to that point, but if a combat is going to last that long regardless, then it's worth setting up that area. You also get to do some minor to decent damage along the way as a freebie. It may be a concentration spell, but none of its effects take any action on your part beyond that concentration. 2d6 bludgeoning damage doesn't sound like much, but 2d6 damage in addition to whatever else you wanted to do that turn is a nice little bonus whilst your god-like lock-down spell is charging up.

[Schwann145]

I think you severely underestimate the suggested HP value of buildings. :smalltongue:
SoV, as ruled, isn't destroying towns. It straight-up murders civilians and is a minor hindrance to actual targets, but you'd be more successful just up-casting a Call Lightning to a 9th level spell and blasting for 10x the duration of SoV. You won't get the diff terrain or the forced concentration checks on spells, but you might actually kill your enemies without insta-turning to pure evil (those poor classless peasants...). :smallwink:

Besides, if your goal was to destroy the actual town itself, you have WAY better options at earlier levels than SoV is available. :smallbiggrin:

[JellyPooga]

I think you severely underestimate the suggested HP value of buildings. :smalltongue:

I exaggerated for emphasis, yes, but it's not an exaggeration that it will kill (almost) every civilian in a village.


You won't get the diff terrain or the forced concentration checks on spells, but you might actually kill your enemies without insta-turning to pure evil (those poor classless peasants...). :smallwink:

The terrain effects (round 5+) are the focus of the spell, not the damage. Half the duration is minor damage that is way out-classed by much lower level spells. The other half of the duration consists of a lock-down area of immense proportions. With no saves involved. Heavy Obscurement and forced concentration means most spellcasters are almost completely useless (can't see, can't target). No ranged attacks means enemies have to engage in melee. Difficult terrain means actually engaging in melee is difficult. And you impose these restrictions on a massive scale; no getting to the edge of the usual 20ft radius and not being bothered from then on; this thing is HUUUUUGE! Even if your average foe is caught halfway to the edge, it's going to take him more turns than the spell lasts to actually get out of the area without some serious (spell level 4+) teleport action or other spell investment (e.g. Freedom of Movement). Even a relatively fast foe (60ft speed) is going to struggle to extricate himself.

[Contrast]

Compared to Meteor Swarm

For reference my quick maths tells me Storm of Vengeance covers roughly 80 times the area of Meteor Storm and has the range limit of 'sight' rather than '1 mile'.

This is a spell which is pretty underwhelming unless you're fighting an army. It's very good against an army though which is particularly relevant in 5E where a couple hundred level 1 guys are gonna trounce even a level 20 character. So not terrible so much as niche.

[JellyPooga]

Oh yeah, nothing says you can't use it indoors either...consider the implications of that at your lesiure.

[BobZan]

You cast it and its effects happen during your turn without the cost of an action. So, well... it's pretty darn good. And its area and effects are huge.

Not a blasting spell, tho. If you rate a good spell as per damage, pick other spells, then. Better, pick other class. Druid spells won't be optimal for blasting in general.

[Chaosmancer]

I exaggerated for emphasis, yes, but it's not an exaggeration that it will kill (almost) every civilian in a village.



The terrain effects (round 5+) are the focus of the spell, not the damage. Half the duration is minor damage that is way out-classed by much lower level spells. The other half of the duration consists of a lock-down area of immense proportions. With no saves involved. Heavy Obscurement and forced concentration means most spellcasters are almost completely useless (can't see, can't target). No ranged attacks means enemies have to engage in melee. Difficult terrain means actually engaging in melee is difficult. And you impose these restrictions on a massive scale; no getting to the edge of the usual 20ft radius and not being bothered from then on; this thing is HUUUUUGE! Even if your average foe is caught halfway to the edge, it's going to take him more turns than the spell lasts to actually get out of the area without some serious (spell level 4+) teleport action or other spell investment (e.g. Freedom of Movement). Even a relatively fast foe (60ft speed) is going to struggle to extricate himself.

That all sounds great... Unless your party has spellcasters or ranged attackers. Your team is still affected by difficult terrain and can't see enemies to attack or even move to.

So... If the only use of this spell is to lock down enemies... Wouldn't you rather use a spell that doesn't also lock down your allies?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Why would your allies be affected? The range of the damn thing is 'sight'. You shouldn't cast Storm of Vengeance on enemies that are close enough for it to ever matter.

That's why it's great for countering armies. You can hit them from a couple miles away, they can't hit back.

[LeonBH]

To be honest, even if the effects were cumulative, it's still a bad spell. It builds slow, is concentration, lasts only a minute, and eats up a 9th level spell slot. It's vulnerable to Dispel Magic and Antimagic Field. It affects your allies if used in a combat encounter.

You might use it against an army of nonmagical mooks at long range, but why would you waste a 9th level spell slot on that? And even if you did, you just inconvenienced them for a minute.

[JellyPooga]

Storm of Vengeance is not a "spur of the moment" spell like Time Stop or Meteor Swarm. Nor is it really a spell that you bust out for your average combat. It is a true 9th level spell inasmuch as it is situational, requires a decent amount of planning to use, but is godlike at what it does. So yeah, it's pretty bad at your run of the mill fight against a lone ancient dragon in his cave, or Lich in his stronghold with a couple of minions...but that's not really what the spell is for.

If, on the other hand, you know the dragon is coming, you can cast this spell to slow him down, giving the town time to man the ballistae and Clerics to hand out the buffs. Or if you can see the Lich and his army of undead rolling over the hill, it allows you the opportunity to wipe most of it out with a single spell before any of your other spells (or those of the Lich) are even in range.

[LeonBH]

If, on the other hand, you know the dragon is coming, you can cast this spell to slow him down, giving the town time to man the ballistae and Clerics to hand out the buffs. Or if you can see the Lich and his army of undead rolling over the hill, it allows you the opportunity to wipe most of it out with a single spell before any of your other spells (or those of the Lich) are even in range.

The spell's radius is 360ft, which means a dragon (80ft fly speed, 160ft with a Dash) will cover that in 4 rounds from end to end. That means they will take 15d6 damage from it before resistances, immunities, or saves. However, if the dragon absolutely doesn't want to be hit, it can skirt the spell's perimeter easily and take 0 damage.

Meanwhile, a Lich will just cast Dispel Magic and get rid of your 9th level spell.

I just don't see how it is "godlike."

[JellyPooga]

The spell's radius is 360ft, which means a dragon (80ft fly speed, 160ft with a Dash) will cover that in 4 rounds from end to end. That means they will take 15d6 damage from it before resistances, immunities, or saves. However, if the dragon absolutely doesn't want to be hit, it can skirt the spell's perimeter easily and take 0 damage.

End to end, it would take more than 4 rounds for that Dragon to clear the AoE and longer still to skirt round to the same destination. That difficult terrain affects his flying too, so for 5 rounds, he's only travelling at 80ft/round with a Dash. 5 rounds @ 80ft is 400ft; just over halfway through the most direct path. He's still got 320ft to go, which is another 2 rounds at full pelt. Funnily enough, if you time it right, you can zap that dragon with lightning just as he enters and he's just coming out the other side as the spell ends; somewhere between 12d6 and 17d6 damage, Saves depending. 7 rounds and free damage compared to the 4 rounds and no damage is 3 rounds of buffs and readiness that the city doesn't otherwise get. Works on multiple dragons too. As for skirting round, the circumference of this thing is about 2100ft, so to travel a quarter of the way around to avoid the AoE completely would take the dragon about 3 rounds Dashing, ignoring the fact that this doesn't account for putting the Dragon off of its chosen line of attack, which will either cause him further delay or allow you to protect a potentially vulnerable target/area.


Meanwhile, a Lich will just cast Dispel Magic and get rid of your 9th level spell.

"Just" cast Dispel Magic? To do it with any certainty, that Dispel Magic has to come from a 9th level slot; quite the cost. Any lower level spell slot expended carries with it a fairly significant chance of failure; Int mod +5 vs. DC:19 is only about a 1-in-4 chance of success. Not great odds and every turn spent casting Dispel Magic and failing is a turn that the army of undeath is getting progressively weaker.

[LeonBH]

End to end, it would take more than 4 rounds for that Dragon to clear the AoE and longer still to skirt round to the same destination. That difficult terrain affects his flying too, so for 5 rounds, he's only travelling at 80ft/round with a Dash. 5 rounds @ 80ft is 400ft; just over halfway through the most direct path. He's still got 320ft to go, which is another 2 rounds at full pelt. Funnily enough, if you time it right, you can zap that dragon with lightning just as he enters and he's just coming out the other side as the spell ends; somewhere between 12d6 and 17d6 damage, Saves depending. 7 rounds and free damage compared to the 4 rounds and no damage is 3 rounds of buffs and readiness that the city doesn't otherwise get. Works on multiple dragons too. As for skirting round, the circumference of this thing is about 2100ft, so to travel a quarter of the way around to avoid the AoE completely would take the dragon about 3 rounds Dashing, ignoring the fact that this doesn't account for putting the Dragon off of its chosen line of attack, which will either cause him further delay or allow you to protect a potentially vulnerable target/area.

The difficult terrain begins at round 5 of the spell. By that time, the dragon has already flown through it. The only way the dragon starts in the spell's area with difficult terrain in place is if you cast the spell several hundred feet ahead of it and the dragon still flies through it.

The spell can buy you 20s without seriously harming the dragon. Hardly godlike or worth a 9th level slot.


"Just" cast Dispel Magic? To do it with any certainty, that Dispel Magic has to come from a 9th level slot; quite the cost. Any lower level spell slot expended carries with it a fairly significant chance of failure; Int mod +5 vs. DC:19 is only about a 1-in-4 chance of success. Not great odds and every turn spent casting Dispel Magic and failing is a turn that the army of undeath is getting progressively weaker.

Yes, just dispel it. That's like trading two knights for the enemy's queen. At the end of the day, only one side has a 9th level spell slot left.

[JellyPooga]

The difficult terrain begins at round 5 of the spell. By that time, the dragon has already flown through it. The only way the dragon starts in the spell's area with difficult terrain in place is if you cast the spell several hundred feet ahead of it and the dragon still flies through it.

Yeah, you cast it ahead of the dragon (did I say otherwise?). I'd say about 320ft in front of the dragon, so that he's hitting the AoE at just the right time to get hit by Round 3 of the spell. Yeah, he still flies through, but it still takes him 7 rounds to fight through it and he still takes 12-17d6 damage (type depending). Damned sight better than the 4 rounds of no damage had you not cast the spell.


The spell can buy you 20s without seriously harming the dragon. Hardly godlike or worth a 9th level slot.

You realise that most combats are over within 20 seconds, right? Three rounds is...oooh, about as much time as a 9th level spell gives you and you alone to use (Time Stop). This spell gives everyone an extra 3 rounds. Sounds pretty good to me.

How about if we replace a lone dragon with, say, a Flight of Dragons. Dozens of them. Storm of Vengeance giving you those extra three rounds AND dealing damage to a significant portion of them is pretty worth a 9th level slot. Even if they just stop and wait the spell out, that's valuable preparation rounds you're buying. If Banishment is good because it lets you take a foe out of combat for a few rounds, then Storm of Vengeance is better because it lets you take an army of giants, or a flight of dragons out of the equation for a minute.


Yes, just dispel it. That's like trading two knights for the enemy's queen. At the end of the day, only one side has a 9th level spell slot left.

With no guarantees; it's more like gambling on taking the queen. Yeah, you might trade one knight to take the queen, but on the flipside, you might trade all your knights, rooks and bishops and still not take the queen. Then all you're left with is a queen vs. your opponents whole army. It could also take you 6 moves to achieve nothing, six moves in which all your pawns are decimated with no further action by your foe, six moves and you'd better hope that your 9th level spell is worth a damn, because the guy you're facing has a full complement of spells from 8th down and he's buffed to the nines because you've been wasting time of Dispelling his 9th level spell instead of preparing yourself for the showdown. Trading a 9th level spell for a bunch of lower level ones and time to prepare? Plus some subsidiary effects (damage, AoE control, dispersal of cloud effects, no ranged attacks, etc.)? Yeah, sounds like a good deal to me.

[LeonBH]

Yeah, you cast it ahead of the dragon (did I say otherwise?). I'd say about 320ft in front of the dragon, so that he's hitting the AoE at just the right time to get hit by Round 3 of the spell. Yeah, he still flies through, but it still takes him 7 rounds to fight through it and he still takes 12-17d6 damage (type depending). Damned sight better than the 4 rounds of no damage had you not cast the spell.

Why would the dragon fly through the area? I can only surmise this dragon must be feeling generous to want to take extra hits.


You realise that most combats are over within 20 seconds, right? Three rounds is...oooh, about as much time as a 9th level spell gives you and you alone to use (Time Stop). This spell gives everyone an extra 3 rounds. Sounds pretty good to me.

Sure, combats are over in 20s. No, not with a dragon. And unless you are saying the dragon dies in that 20s, then it is a meaningless delay. Evacuations aren't completed in 20s. And when combat inevitably begins, you begin the fight without a 9th level spell slot.


How about if we replace a lone dragon with, say, a Flight of Dragons. Dozens of them. Storm of Vengeance giving you those extra three rounds AND dealing damage to a significant portion of them is pretty worth a 9th level slot. Even if they just stop and wait the spell out, that's valuable preparation rounds you're buying. If Banishment is good because it lets you take a foe out of combat for a few rounds, then Storm of Vengeance is better because it lets you take an army of giants, or a flight of dragons out of the equation for a minute.

Then Storm of Vengeance is meaningless. There is no way you can stop a dozen dragons, whether or not they chose to generously stay inside the area of the storm for the full minute. Storm of Vengeance will not save you.


With no guarantees; it's more like gambling on taking the queen. Yeah, you might trade one knight to take the queen, but on the flipside, you might trade all your knights, rooks and bishops and still not take the queen. Then all you're left with is a queen vs. your opponents whole army. It could also take you 6 moves to achieve nothing, six moves in which all your pawns are decimated with no further action by your foe, six moves and you'd better hope that your 9th level spell is worth a damn, because the guy you're facing has a full complement of spells from 8th down and he's buffed to the nines because you've been wasting time of Dispelling his 9th level spell instead of preparing yourself for the showdown. Trading a 9th level spell for a bunch of lower level ones and time to prepare? Plus some subsidiary effects (damage, AoE control, dispersal of cloud effects, no ranged attacks, etc.)? Yeah, sounds like a good deal to me.

You really overestimate the power of this spell. What if the Lich brought one Bard (Inspiration), or one Cleric (Guidance), or even one Druid (Enhance Ability)?

Even at the 25% odds, it still favors the Lich to cast Dispel at 3rd level against a 9th level spell. At the end of the day, three Fireballs don't equal one Power Word: Kill.

---

Here's the bottom line, for me: the spell is worthless unless you're the DM and you engineer a way to make it useful. And that is the only way it can be useful. There aren't any moments of inspiration in a normal encounter where you can save the day by casting Storm of Vengeance. There are no creative solutions that naturally require Storm of Vengeance. The DM has to willfully make it useful.

Take Shapechange over it - that is a better use of a 9th level slot.

[SkylarkR6]

Minor question but... Dispel magic is a range of 120'. Are you able to dispel the rain effects etc and cancel the spell or is everyone putting their cloud within range?

[BobZan]

The spell is everything. Even if you can't reach the clouds you can dispel it.

[JellyPooga]

Here's the bottom line, for me: the spell is worthless unless you're the DM and you engineer a way to make it useful. Take Shapechange over it - that is a better use of a 9th level slot.

Ok, do you consider any of the following to be good spells?

Banishment
Time Stop
Call Lightning
Fireball
Darkness
Wind Wall

If you do (bearing in mind that one of them is also a 9th level spell), then you must also consider Storm of Vengeance to be a good spell, because in actual practice, it's effect combines all of the above into a single spell, but to a greater degree. With no saves for any of the significant parts. In the biggest AoE of any spell in the book.

To answer some of your points;
- yes the dragon flies through because what he wants is on the other side, not 300ft to the left or right. If this isn't the case, it still takes him just as long or longer to go around.
- yes, delaying a creature, or army of creatures, without killing them is useful. It's why Banishment is good.
- a dozen dragons can't go over, around or through a Storm of Vengeance any easier than one dragon can. You're still buying valuable time and if they're on the clock, or are feeling ****-sure (I hear it's a common draconic trait), then they're taking damage, however little, that you don't have to do anything to inflict.
- It's not just a 25% chance of success to use Dispel Magic, it costs you an action and a spell slot (however low level) too. I'll again point out that time is probably the single most valuable resource in d&d and Storm of Vengeance is buying it. If SoV can buy even a single additional round for your team, I consider that worth the slot. At a 75% failure rate, I wan't you to throw your lower level spells and waste your time trying to dispel me; at least you're not doing something more useful.
- PW:Kill is not comparable to Fireball; they achieve completely different objectives. Besides, even if you did use Fireball as single target damage, I'd rather use three of them than PW:Kill if time isn't an issue; 3x8d6=avg.84 damage, which will kill most things that have less than 100hp as well as reducing the HP of those with more. Even on three successful saves, 42 damage is better than none. If time is an issue...well, my point about SoV stands.

Shapechange? I don't rate it. No undead or constructs, nothing with the Spellcasting trait; limited. Tell me about the creature that gives your whole side half a minute of additional prep time? Yeah, Shapechange is a good everyday sort of spell, like Foresight, but neither of those will alter the course of a significant event in the same way that the likes of Storm of Vengeance or Gate can.

[SkylarkR6]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/06/does-dispel-magic-stop-the-storm-of-vengeance-from-affecting-everyone/

The cloud you create is the effect to dispel. Stick it a thousand feet up or 2? All it says is everything under it so...?

[LeonBH]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/06/does-dispel-magic-stop-the-storm-of-vengeance-from-affecting-everyone/

The cloud you create is the effect to dispel. Stick it a thousand feet up or 2? All it says is everything under it so...?

You don't dispel the magical effect over everybody simultaneously. You can't, for example, target yourself and end the magical effect of Storm of Vengeance on only yourself.

You are surrounded by the spell's effects. You can consequently dispel those effects, just like how you can dispel Darkness that affects two or more people.

EDIT: That isn't to say the specific effects - like the 5 minute deafness - can be dispelled instantly from everybody at the same time. Those effects linger after the spell's duration has passed and affects each person individually, like a Slow spell.

[LeonBH]

Ok, do you consider any of the following to be good spells?

Banishment
Time Stop
Call Lightning
Fireball
Darkness
Wind Wall

If you do (bearing in mind that one of them is also a 9th level spell), then you must also consider Storm of Vengeance to be a good spell, because in actual practice, it's effect combines all of the above into a single spell, but to a greater degree. With no saves for any of the significant parts. In the biggest AoE of any spell in the book.

Storm of Vengeance does not combine any of those effects together. I cannot cast Storm of Vengeance and banish someone from an encounter, or use it to take several rounds in succession, or blind anyone until 5 rounds later (though I can deafen them on round 1 - that's not as good).


To answer some of your points;
- yes the dragon flies through because what he wants is on the other side, not 300ft to the left or right. If this isn't the case, it still takes him just as long or longer to go around.

Our dragon is acting unintelligently.


- yes, delaying a creature, or army of creatures, without killing them is useful. It's why Banishment is good.

No, that is not why Banishment is good. Delaying anyone for a few rounds is meaningless. Banishment derives its value from pulling a powerful creature out of the fight and using that time to eliminate its less powerful allies, and then ganging up on the banished creature when he returns.

Storm of Vengeance just delays the powerful creature without necessarily eliminating any of its allies, and uses your 9th level slot.


- a dozen dragons can't go over, around or through a Storm of Vengeance any easier than one dragon can. You're still buying valuable time and if they're on the clock, or are feeling ****-sure (I hear it's a common draconic trait), then they're taking damage, however little, that you don't have to do anything to inflict.

You're still dead once those dozens of dragons reach you.


- It's not just a 25% chance of success to use Dispel Magic, it costs you an action and a spell slot (however low level) too. I'll again point out that time is probably the single most valuable resource in d&d and Storm of Vengeance is buying it. If SoV can buy even a single additional round for your team, I consider that worth the slot. At a 75% failure rate, I wan't you to throw your lower level spells and waste your time trying to dispel me; at least you're not doing something more useful.

No, time is valuable in an encounter. Casting at the distance of "sight", you are not buying yourself a significant amount of time - no encounter begins yet.

Let's say this happens: the Lich and his army stops marching for 1 minute after Storm of Vengeance is cast. After the minute, they start marching again. What did you do in the 10 rounds to secure a decisive victory?


- PW:Kill is not comparable to Fireball; they achieve completely different objectives. Besides, even if you did use Fireball as single target damage, I'd rather use three of them than PW:Kill if time isn't an issue; 3x8d6=avg.84 damage, which will kill most things that have less than 100hp as well as reducing the HP of those with more. Even on three successful saves, 42 damage is better than none. If time is an issue...well, my point about SoV stands.

They are comparable to the extent that Fireball uses 3rd level slots (same as Dispel) and Power Word: Kill uses a 9th level slot. And when one spell is used, there is no save and no death saves, thus preventing the other three spells from being cast.


Shapechange? I don't rate it. No undead or constructs, nothing with the Spellcasting trait; limited. Tell me about the creature that gives your whole side half a minute of additional prep time? Yeah, Shapechange is a good everyday sort of spell, like Foresight, but neither of those will alter the course of a significant event in the same way that the likes of Storm of Vengeance or Gate can.

How has Storm of Vengeance changed the course of an event? By delaying an army for half a minute?

[JellyPooga]

Storm of Vengeance does not combine any of those effects together. I cannot cast Storm of Vengeance and banish someone from an encounter, or use it to take several rounds in succession, or blind anyone until 5 rounds later (though I can deafen them on round 1 - that's not as good).

Not directly, no, but that's because SoV is more situational and requires planning and forethought to use. On the flipside, with that forethought and preparation, it's better than anu of those spells.


No, that is not why Banishment is good. Delaying anyone for a few rounds is meaningless. Banishment derives its value from pulling a powerful creature out of the fight and using that time to eliminate its less powerful allies, and then ganging up on the banished creature when he returns.

Less powerful allies that SoV also takes care of if they're in the AoE you mean? While freeing you up for whatever else you want to do in that time? Sounds like SoV is doing two jobs at once to me.


You're still dead once those dozens of dragons reach you.

If you're on your own, yes. But you just bought time for guards to man and load ballistae, resident clerics to buff your allies, your party to do their own prep work. A delaying action gives you time that you wouldn't otherwise have to change the battlefield to your advantage. Whether you buy that time by removing the big baddie from the plane of existence or by holding him uo is irrelevant. SoVs delaying action isn't predicated on a saving throw or ability check either; unlike practically every other spell that would do the same.


No, time is valuable in an encounter. Casting at the distance of "sight", you are not buying yourself a significant amount of time - no encounter begins yet.

Time is valuable when time is of the essence. An incoming flight of dragons moving at 160ft a round is a time when every second counts.


Let's say this happens: the Lich and his army stops marching for 1 minute after Storm of Vengeance is cast. After the minute, they start marching again. What did you do in the 10 rounds to secure a decisive victory?

In this scenario, you cast SoV on the army itself and the decisive thing it does is decimate the army. SoV affects somewhere in the region of 15,000 5ft squares. That's going to encompass an army upwards of 6,000 strong. Anything with less than about 50hp is dead. Anything with between 50 and 100hp is getting worried. Anything tough enough for a level 17 Druid and his party to worry about gets hit for an extra 10d6. That's pretty significant, I'd say.

[LeonBH]

As I was writing my reply, I realized something. You know what? I give up. Storm of Vengeance is a terrible spell, and there is no value in debating its uses.

[Provo]

LeonBH is certainly right about the importance of time in an encounter vs outside of an encounter. It is a different game after initiative is rolled. Delaying a couple dragons by 20 seconds makes no difference when you already had 10 minutes to prepare. Delaying a dragon AFTER a fight has already started is strong which SoV doesn't really do.

However, I still like SoV. It seems DM dependent, but at tier 4 you are dealing with world influencing events. The ability to devastate an entire region is exactly the sort of spell that should be helpful in dealing with these sorts of events.

[Chaosmancer]

Why would your allies be affected? The range of the damn thing is 'sight'. You shouldn't cast Storm of Vengeance on enemies that are close enough for it to ever matter.

That's why it's great for countering armies. You can hit them from a couple miles away, they can't hit back.

JellyPooga who I was responding to talked about how the spell was meant for locking down enemies, forcing concentration checks, preventing ranged attacks, making closing in melee more difficult. However, beyond about 150 ft none of that is an issue anyways, especially for a high level party. So for the lockdown to be most effective one would assume it would be used on enemies that are relatively close by.

As for the "delaying dragons" discussion. Let us say you delay the dragon by 7 rounds, that's only 35 seconds. If the dragon is surprising everyone, that's not really enough time to make a big difference. If it isn't surprising the city, you've already prepared and the extra time isn't neccesary, you'll have everything ready in the two rounds on approach. It's not really altering the encounter.

The only legitimately good use I've seen on the thread so far is army busting, but that comes with a relatively big list of caveats. You need to have the party facing a large army. The size of the army needs to matter and not just be a set piece for the background. They need to be far enough away that your own forces are not impacted. The goal can't be to run away, because if it is there are far more effective spells.

And, all of this is in contrast to other 9th level spells like shapechange, which allows you to almost freely switch between multiple high CR forms. Become a dragon yourself, or a beholder, or switch between, become a planetar a Ki-Rinn ect. It gives you far greater options and versatility.

[JellyPooga]

LeonBH is certainly right about the importance of time in an encounter vs outside of an encounter. It is a different game after initiative is rolled. Delaying a couple dragons by 20 seconds makes no difference when you already had 10 minutes to prepare. Delaying a dragon AFTER a fight has already started is strong which SoV doesn't really do.

Those 20 seconds count because magic, as a rule, is horrifically short ranged compared to mundane weaponry and tactics. A rule that SoV breaks. If you can keep a speeding foe at bay, within range of magic, that's a win. If you can keep a foe at bay beyond the range of magic, then that gives you room for firing a bow or whatever else you have to hand, then using the closing seconds (which you've bought) to cast your buffs and shorter ranged spells. That's a better win because magic alone is worse than magic plus some extra rounds of archery (among other potential).

If you're playing a small scale game, yeah, SoV is prett naff. At 17th level, though, you can be dealing with large scale conflicts and that s what SoV is for. Four guys shooting bows for a couple of rounds at a dozen dragons isn't much to shout about, but you give 200 men and a score of ballistae an extra couple of rounds against those dragons and see what happens.

[Chaosmancer]

If you're on your own, yes. But you just bought time for guards to man and load ballistae, resident clerics to buff your allies, your party to do their own prep work. A delaying action gives you time that you wouldn't otherwise have to change the battlefield to your advantage. Whether you buy that time by removing the big baddie from the plane of existence or by holding him uo is irrelevant. SoVs delaying action isn't predicated on a saving throw or ability check either; unlike practically every other spell that would do the same

Why weren't the guards and clerics already helping?

Did the dragon surprise the town swooping in and giving you only a minute to prepare? Double that time to two minutes... How long does it take to put on scale mail? And the alarm has to be rung. Clerics still have to run through the streets to find you, streets filled with panicking citizens because a dragon is attacking.

Or let's say it didn't surprise anyone, you've got forewarning and ten minutes til impact. Well, the buffs get cast for max duration, so 2 rounds before either way. Guards are stationed and weapons prepped. An extra minute actually doesn't do anything for you, and that dragon could just go around your spell taking zero damage because waiting a minute doesn't do any more harm.

That's the difference. When the time matters, it is generally not going to be long enough and when it doesn't matter... Well, it doesn't matter.

[Chaosmancer]

Those 20 seconds count because magic, as a rule, is horrifically short ranged compared to mundane weaponry and tactics. A rule that SoV breaks. If you can keep a speeding foe at bay, within range of magic, that's a win. If you can keep a foe at bay beyond the range of magic, then that gives you room for firing a bow or whatever else you have to hand, then using the closing seconds (which you've bought) to cast your buffs and shorter ranged spells. That's a better win because magic alone is worse than magic plus some extra rounds of archery (among other potential).

If you're playing a small scale game, yeah, SoV is prett naff. At 17th level, though, you can be dealing with large scale conflicts and that s what SoV is for. Four guys shooting bows for a couple of rounds at a dozen dragons isn't much to shout about, but you give 200 men and a score of ballistae an extra couple of rounds against those dragons and see what happens.

Hope i don't end up with a double post.

You aren't wrong in theory, but in practice you aren't making any sense. If the dragon is out of range for the bows when you cast the spell, you've gained no extra time because they weren't shooting anyways. And if it is in range when you cast the spell... It still doesn't do you any good because ranged attacks are essentially impossible during a storm of vengeance.

Unless those two hundred archers were 20 seconds away from being ready to fight, you've gained nothing of note that you couldn't gain by other means.

[JellyPooga]

Hope i don't end up with a double post.

You aren't wrong in theory, but in practice you aren't making any sense. If the dragon is out of range for the bows when you cast the spell, you've gained no extra time because they weren't shooting anyways. And if it is in range when you cast the spell... It still doesn't do you any good because ranged attacks are essentially impossible during a storm of vengeance.

Unless those two hundred archers were 20 seconds away from being ready to fight, you've gained nothing of note that you couldn't gain by other means.

Urgh, maybe I'm just not explaining what's in my head well enough. I can see the potential, but can't articulate it. Suffice to say, SoV is one of the only spells that, mainly due to its massive AoE, is only going to come in useful when that massive AoE is an option; which is largely only when something big and scary like a dozen dragons or an army are approaching. Its short duration and long warm up mean its not something that can be tossed off in a pinch, but that doesn't make it a terrible spell; it combines a lot of effects that add up to something awesome...when it counts. Added to that, it's doing something that no other spell of its level is doing; Shapechange is a good spell and versatile, but it still only affects one guy and no matter what shape you're in, there's only so much that one guy can do. The same can be said of other spells. SoV has the potential to affect thousands (literally) of medium creatures, or dozens of gargantuan ones; that's no small thing. If you want to halt the apocalyspe, even if it is only for half a minute, SoV is your boy and half a minute when the world is ending (albeit a small part of it) is a long time to actually do something about stopping it entirely.

[Citan]

According to a Sage Advice I just found, SoV's effects are not cumulative each round.
However, that means you're casting a 9th level spell that, with one round of exception, essentially does 1d6 damage per round for the majority of rounds you can maintain it.

That's utter trash, yeah?

However, if it is played cumulatively, that suddenly turns into an epic spell storm of "probably-too-good" proportions!

So how do you rule it?
Hey...
Ahem... I'm very sorry but the only thing that may maybe qualify as "trash" if you really wanted one, would be a line that reduces the spell to "essentially does 1d6 damage per round for the majority of rounds".
(Although even like that, it still amounts to 10d6 on every creature in a 720 sphere. That may amount to little or to stupidly high amount of damage depending on context).

Let's recall that...

1. It's a 360 RADIUS spell that instantly afflict 2d6 damage on a Constitution saving throw fail, then inflicts *automatic* 1d6 damage each round, *in addition to other things*.
Obviously on small army it cannot compare against Meteor Swarm. Good thing though? They never had the same use in the first place.

On a big army though? There is no way most of them will avoid sustaining all damage.
Conservative predictions would still easily amount to thousands of cumulative damage over a few rounds. Certainly not enough to kill a seasoned army, but far enough to wear them off, kill the badly hurt / old ones as well as supporter civilians and destroying some provisions.

Benefits don't stop here.

2. Early enough in the fight, you can deal up to 60d6 damage on a failed Dex save, and half as much on save. 10d6 is enough to make a significant dent in many high level creatures, and is probably enough to half-kill even the best human NPC (although I don't have any book to check this so you're welcome to correct me ;)), as well as forcing your powerful enemy caster to try a hard to very hard Concentration save (10d6, average 35 so DC 17, but could break well above 20 with a bit of luck): even tankish Sorcerers (focus CON) would still "only" get a +10 to Concentration save, and they are likely to fail DEX save.
In other words, unless facing a caster specifically designed to sustain Concentration, you get a very good chance at instantly shutting down one (or maybe several) problematic concentration spell(s).

3. Later in effect you, all at once...
- Heavily slows down enemy advance (difficult terrain).
- Completely nullifies his ranged weapon attacks (no arrows).
- Blocks somewhere around 50% of directly offensive spells (heavily obscured area).
- Forces all casters to make a DC 10 concentration save, in addition to the save they make because they sustain damage. That's two chances to blow a spell, *every round*. Of course, Sorcerers, Eldricht Knights and characters that were allowed to take feats and took Warcaster/Resilient will laugh at this. But unless PVP settings, biggest bad guys or especially antagonist DM, most of them enemies won't be proficient in Constitution saves.
- Provided they at least managed to at least keep concentrating on spells like Fog Cloud / Stinking Cloud (maybe Darkness? Note sure on that one) you still dispel them per the description of the spell.

4. You don't even affect environment per RAW (although I would certainly as a DM rule some consequences, at least if I allow the spell to affect travel provisions ;)).

So, mind you, the damage is not the main draw of the spell (unless you just really want to harm a huge army to demoralize it), just the cherry on the cake. ;)

Of course it would probably be stupid to use it if your own party would be exposed. And you would regret that there is no control over the radius, because that's an awfully large area so it's hard to avoid collateral damage. So in any normal party in a normal campaign, it will be situational, or maybe never have a chance to get useful.

But with a bit of a preparation(or if you don't actually care about collateral), and a party-wide safeguard like a friend's Leomunds Tiny Hut it can be devastating, even when the environment would normally make it unfriendly for you. *Especially* paired with, totally random example *ahem*, the same Wizard pal that made the Hut now preparing a Delayed Blast Fireball for when your Storm ends. ;)

Note that, funnily enough and stupidly enough (totally breaks the fluff imo but who cares ^^), this spell does not require any open sky or high enough ceiling to be used. So technically nothing prevents you from casting it into a dungeon either, although whether it spreads beyond a closed room or not would be totally DM territory. XD
(And I would totally understand a DM houseruling that you need to fulfill the same requirements as for Call Lightning honestly).


It does not stack? I always thought they do.

This is why I hate Sage Advice sometimes. Do they know the meaning of additional effects? Or is additional now synonymous with changing?

Its incredibly lame that it starts off with thunder for 6 sec, thunder stops, rain for 6 sec, rain stops, then some lightning for 6 sec, etc. I mean, what kind of storm is that??
I agree that the "additional" is confusing and overall since we are talking about a 9th level spell I would not mind actually cumulating all effects over all rounds (would make it far more powerful overall than Meteor Swarm, but only if you maintain long enough, so fair trade)...
But as others, I never had any doubt on the fact that you had actually only one effect on each round, for better or worse.

Let's not forget that turns and rounds are just an artificial representation used to comprehend things happening all simultaneously over 6 seconds span.
If you are bothered by the representation of the spell because you feel it "switches" too fast and too often, just say that rain and lightning are actually continuous but too random to really provide any mechanical benefit, and you have to concentrate on one component to make it an offensive one (concentrating water to make acid, directing thunderbolts so they actually hit useful targets etc)...

[Citan]

So I realize after catching up that Jelly already made an exhaustive explanation on why the spell is good. My post was somewhat pointless. XD

Good thing I have things to actually contribute to the current discussion regarding Dispel Magic. ;)





With no guarantees; it's more like gambling on taking the queen. Yeah, you might trade one knight to take the queen, but on the flipside, you might trade all your knights, rooks and bishops and still not take the queen.
Sorry Jelly, you're on the losing side on that one. Even if DC is 19, even if checks are made without proficiency because it's not a skill check, even if enemy casters weren't high level casters with maxed stats but "only" a +3...
If someone really has the wealth to raise an army big enough to warrant the use of Storm of Vengeance, considering we are speaking about a magical world, he certainly has enough wealth to hire several dozens of low level mages that have Dispel Magic up their sleeve. With even only one dozen of them simultaneously trying, they would be bound to have at least one that succeeds, even with as low as 25% chance.

Have not fear though, friend. There is no chance of that actually happening (well, unless you actually cast it into a place with ceiling XD), confer below...



https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/06/does-dispel-magic-stop-the-storm-of-vengeance-from-affecting-everyone/

The cloud you create is the effect to dispel. Stick it a thousand feet up or 2? All it says is everything under it so...?





You are surrounded by the spell's effects. You can consequently dispel those effects, just like how you can dispel Darkness that affects two or more people.

Too bad, you're wrong, unless you want to deny Crawford's answer that Skylark kindly quoted here to spare us a timely search.
And you should not be surprised of it either. It was obvious enough imo that what qualifies as "spell effect" is the storm cloud, not the acid rain / wind / cold which are "natural" consequences of it. Otherwise, as you said, it would be basically pointless unless you use it to terrorize populations deprived of any magic.
Maybe in fact was it precisely for this reason that they wrote the spell as such, with a natural (well, kinda ^^) phenomenom described each round, instead of a melting-pot of continuous cumulated rain/cold/wind. So that what happens each round is actually a separate, instantaneous (or let's say "independent, self-contained") effect that as such escapes the risk of Dispel Magic*. Anyways...

So, nop, you can't just point your fingers at a rain drop and dispel Storm of Vengeance. You have to get close enough to the actual storm cloud (120 feet is Dispel Magic range), which can be as high as 5000 feet up in the air. ;)
...
...
Good luck with that. XD

*I wonder how would you people rule if someone said they'd Ready a Dispel Magic on the next effect generated by the Storm: would you allow him/her to try and nullify the acidic round, or a hail round?
I'd like to make it work but I don't really see how ^^

[Theoboldi]

So, all talks of effectiveness aside, am I the only one who thinks the errataed version is kinda thematically lame? I mean, it's not a storm that slowly increases in intensity as you call down nature's wrath on your enemies.

It's a roar of thunder, followed by 6 seconds of acid, six lightning bolts with no rain, six seconds of hail, and then thirty seconds of wind. That's more like a deadly car wash. Which, while awesome in its own right, is not the feel I want from Storm of Vengeance. Eh, good thing I can ignore these rulings in my home game.

[Citan]

So, all talks of effectiveness aside, am I the only one who thinks the errataed version is kinda thematically lame? I mean, it's not a storm that slowly increases in intensity as you call down nature's wrath on your enemies.

It's a roar of thunder, followed by 6 seconds of acid, six lightning bolts with no rain, six seconds of hail, and then thirty seconds of wind. That's more like a deadly car wash. Which, while awesome in its own right, is not the feel I want from Storm of Vengeance. Eh, good thing I can ignore these rulings in my home game.
That I can back up, that's the same reason why I ignored it for a long time. Kinda frustrated you can't ever CHOOSE the order of effect, least the effect itself.

None of my players yet asked because I don't DM high-level games, but if a player was frustrated about it, I wouldn't mind rewriting it so player just chooses one effect each turn.

Like, you get the heavily obscured area, ranged weapon attacks made with disadvantage and 1d6 automatic cold damage per round built-in as a consequence of cold wind and rain, but you choose each round whether to concentrate on...
- Wind (directional upside down hurricane): STR save for 2d6/1d6 bludgeoning damage, movement divided by 4 when moving towards one given direction, arrows automatically deflected when going in that direction.
- Cold: CON save for 2d6/half cold damage, terrain gets freeze, Dex save or fall prone.
- Rain: CHA save for 2d6/half psychic damage, visibility reduced to 30 feet, beyond is opaque, same with sound (creature is considered blinded and deafened in regard to anything beyond 30 feet).
- Lightning: one powerful bolt: DEX save for 10d8/half on a 10 feet large, 40 feet high cylinder, creatures less than 20 feet from the cloud make save with disadvantage, creatures must succeed on a CON save: fail = deafened for 1mn, saved = deafened until start of next round.
- Balanced: DC 10 concentration saves and difficult terrain everywhere.
AND, when you cast the spell, you can choose the radius anywhere between 100 and 300 feet.

That way you have one spell that is adaptable to many situations but can still be specialized when needed.

[Schwann145]

Just kinda summing up my thoughts after reading discussion and back-and-fourth arguments, but:

•SoV is very good if you want to kill large amounts of civilians (ie: you're the villain) or are facing a rather large army of mooks. Outside of these situations, it's basically useless.
•Because of the massive spell area SoV's control effects are effectively meaningless (it shuts down archers... who were out of range anyway. Ditto spellcasters. Etc.) unless you don't care about collateral damage, in which case it's just as harmful to your side as the enemy side.
•Because 36 seconds of real-time is paltry (rounds 5-10), it's diff terrain features are all but meaningless in holding off the advance of the enemy (ie: the aforementioned dragon(s) choosing to fly around does, in fact, delay it, but not enough to matter in the grand scheme of things).

[LeonBH]

So I realize after catching up that Jelly already made an exhaustive explanation on why the spell is good. My post was somewhat pointless. XD

Good thing I have things to actually contribute to the current discussion regarding Dispel Magic. ;)

Too bad, you're wrong, unless you want to deny Crawford's answer that Skylark kindly quoted here to spare us a timely search.
And you should not be surprised of it either. It was obvious enough imo that what qualifies as "spell effect" is the storm cloud, not the acid rain / wind / cold which are "natural" consequences of it. Otherwise, as you said, it would be basically pointless unless you use it to terrorize populations deprived of any magic.
Maybe in fact was it precisely for this reason that they wrote the spell as such, with a natural (well, kinda ^^) phenomenom described each round, instead of a melting-pot of continuous cumulated rain/cold/wind. So that what happens each round is actually a separate, instantaneous (or let's say "independent, self-contained") effect that as such escapes the risk of Dispel Magic*. Anyways...

So, nop, you can't just point your fingers at a rain drop and dispel Storm of Vengeance. You have to get close enough to the actual storm cloud (120 feet is Dispel Magic range), which can be as high as 5000 feet up in the air. ;)
...
...
Good luck with that. XD

*I wonder how would you people rule if someone said they'd Ready a Dispel Magic on the next effect generated by the Storm: would you allow him/her to try and nullify the acidic round, or a hail round?
I'd like to make it work but I don't really see how ^^

I don't interpret Crawford's words as being unable to dispel the cloud. The spell has lasting effects beyond its duration (deafness) and dispelling that with Dispel Magic is not possible. Thus you cannot use Dispel Magic on Storm of Vengeance and end its effect on everybody.

But even if you consider your interpretation right, your own workaround undoes it. One Teleportation spell on 10 mages can bring them up 5000 ft, and Feather Fall can assist them. Cloud is within range.

Now, how they get down (if they do) could be a matter of another Teleport spell, or perhaps the Lich left them for dead.

[Zalabim]

I don't interpret Crawford's words as being unable to dispel the cloud. The spell has lasting effects beyond its duration (deafness) and dispelling that with Dispel Magic is not possible. Thus you cannot use Dispel Magic on Storm of Vengeance and end its effect on everybody.

But even if you consider your interpretation right, your own workaround undoes it. One Teleportation spell on 10 mages can bring them up 5000 ft, and Feather Fall can assist them. Cloud is within range.

Now, how they get down (if they do) could be a matter of another Teleport spell, or perhaps the Lich left them for dead.
The teleport spell only conveys the caster and 8 others, so you'd get 9 mages. The target is a place you can see, so there's a 76% chance that works. This is a 7th level spell, then a feather fall (actually two castings to hit 9 targets) as a reaction to stay in range for the others to dispel magic. Then it takes, assuming +5 ability bonus, 2.85 dispels on average, or 5-6 dispels for >90% confidence at dispelling the cloud. Afterwards, all those mages float for a minute, then either need another feather fall (or several) as they reach the ground, or take 20d6 falling damage ~5 rounds later (assuming ~1000ft/round is their max falling speed). A plan this risky could only come from a PC with a sudden bout of inspiration. There's no way this is "everyone knows that's how you dispel Storm of Vengeance" territory. This cure could easily be worse than the disease.

[LeonBH]

The teleport spell only conveys the caster and 8 others, so you'd get 9 mages. The target is a place you can see, so there's a 76% chance that works. This is a 7th level spell, then a feather fall (actually two castings to hit 9 targets) as a reaction to stay in range for the others to dispel magic. Then it takes, assuming +5 ability bonus, 2.85 dispels on average, or 5-6 dispels for >90% confidence at dispelling the cloud. Afterwards, all those mages float for a minute, then either need another feather fall (or several) as they reach the ground, or take 20d6 falling damage ~5 rounds later (assuming ~1000ft/round is their max falling speed). A plan this risky could only come from a PC with a sudden bout of inspiration. There's no way this is "everyone knows that's how you dispel Storm of Vengeance" territory. This cure could easily be worse than the disease.

Citan's workaround was along the lines of "if you have the resources to raise an army..."

I'm not the one you should be disproving. It's the idea that the Lich can use 12 mages for dispelling anything at all due to their resources. That one didn't come from me, but I'm happy to use the approach.

Of course, if we're bringing Teleport into the discussion, then the Lich could just Teleport all 9 mages and begin the encounter then and there, causing the caster of Storm of Vengeance to lose concentration.

[Citan]

I don't interpret Crawford's words as being unable to dispel the cloud. The spell has lasting effects beyond its duration (deafness) and dispelling that with Dispel Magic is not possible. Thus you cannot use Dispel Magic on Storm of Vengeance and end its effect on everybody.

But even if you consider your interpretation right, your own workaround undoes it. One Teleportation spell on 10 mages can bring them up 5000 ft, and Feather Fall can assist them. Cloud is within range.

Now, how they get down (if they do) could be a matter of another Teleport spell, or perhaps the Lich left them for dead.
I never said that Crawford ruling was "you can't dispel the cloud". It's precisely the contrary: you can dispel the cloud, but the cloud only. So you have to be close to it (although I do realize thanks to this discussion that the devs didn't judge useful to tell how "high-large" the cloud was if you see what I mean, I guess it's not very relevant).

In other words, you can't just stay on ground and cast Dispel Magic on a rain drop, hailstone to dispel the whole thing.

Then comes your suggested tactic: sure, it works but let's remember that...
Storm of Vengeance creates heavily obscured area at round 5, so casters need to use Teleport earlier. I don't see any reason why they would wait of course, but it implies that if you Druid expect them to do so, you could set up some tactics with allies to prevent that, especially if you can identify in advance the few casters that are actually able to cast a 7th level spell.

Still though, it's a great idea, probably the best counter.
But there is a drawback...

Once your high-level caster and whoever he brought with him to ensure multiple Dispel Magics succeeded into disabling Storm of Vengeance, they are now freefalling / Feather Falling from probably at least 4500 feet away (if open sky, there is really no reason whatsoever not to cast the cloud as high as possible). Provided a DM uses realistic speed and casters plan good enough to only use Feather Fall at the last moment, the whole group is still out of the main fight for at least 4 whole rounds. Or they may use another Teleport to "jump" back to land, provided there was a caster still with one 7th level slot or higher.

Not a small benefit I'd say, even if it's obviously much less of a result than what you would have expected. ;)

[LeonBH]

I never said that Crawford ruling was "you can't dispel the cloud". It's precisely the contrary: you can dispel the cloud, but the cloud only. So you have to be close to it (although I do realize thanks to this discussion that the devs didn't judge useful to tell how "high-large" the cloud was if you see what I mean, I guess it's not very relevant).

In other words, you can't just stay on ground and cast Dispel Magic on a rain drop, hailstone to dispel the whole thing.

Not quite. Crawford didn't say you can't dispel the hail, only that dispelling a magical effect with Dispel Magic does not end the spell for all. Which is true. The Storm's lasting effects endure past its duration and you can't remove those with one Dispel Magic.

So you can dispel the cloud - but you can certainly dispel the hail, etc. It's similar to how you can't dispel Slow on all affected creatures at once, but you can dispel a Darkness spell and lift the effect from everybody simultaneously. The Darkness happens to create a sphere that affects all, while Storm of Vengeance affects a 360 ft sphere and all the ground 5000ft below it.

But your interpretation is a hindrance and protects Storm of Vengeance, which makes it more interesting at least. So I concede and let's assume that instead.


Then comes your suggested tactic: sure, it works but let's remember that...
Storm of Vengeance creates heavily obscured area at round 5, so casters need to use Teleport earlier. I don't see any reason why they would wait of course, but it implies that if you Druid expect them to do so, you could set up some tactics with allies to prevent that, especially if you can identify in advance the few casters that are actually able to cast a 7th level spell.

Still though, it's a great idea, probably the best counter.

It's probably not the best counter. I could see a few adjustments made here and there. Granting a fly speed through the Fly spell or a carpet of flying, or Winged Boots, or using races that naturally have flight - which alleviates the need for Feather Fall.

You'd need one caster who can cast 7th level spells, which could be the Lich himself or a lackey. Or perhaps you can grant them a Helm of Teleportation, which is only a Rare item.

Of course, that's a tactic to directly negate the storm itself. But if we're using Teleport, then it's perfectly possible for the Lich to just bampf in and remove the caster's concentration using scry and die tactics. (Which can be blocked by a Forbiddance spell or a Hallow spell... which can be bypassed by a Dream spell... which can be blocked by Leomund's Tiny Hut... and so on)


But there is a drawback...

Once your high-level caster and whoever he brought with him to ensure multiple Dispel Magics succeeded into disabling Storm of Vengeance, they are now freefalling / Feather Falling from probably at least 4500 feet away (if open sky, there is really no reason whatsoever not to cast the cloud as high as possible). Provided a DM uses realistic speed and casters plan good enough to only use Feather Fall at the last moment, the whole group is still out of the main fight for at least 4 whole rounds. Or they may use another Teleport to "jump" back to land, provided there was a caster still with one 7th level slot or higher.

Not a small benefit I'd say, even if it's obviously much less of a result than what you would have expected. ;)

To be honest, at this point the discussion is less about Storm of Vengeance and more about who has more items or allies. The comparison before was three third level slots (for Dispel Magic) and one ninth level slot (Storm of Vengeance). But now it's whoever has more allies.

That's several points against Storm of Vengeance, actually, because it's instead a discussion of how it needs to be supported by other methods.

[Citan]

Not quite. Crawford didn't say you can't dispel the hail, only that dispelling a magical effect with Dispel Magic does not end the spell for all. Which is true. The Storm's lasting effects endure past its duration and you can't remove those with one Dispel Magic.

So you can dispel the cloud - but you can certainly dispel the hail, etc. It's similar to how you can't dispel Slow on all affected creatures at once, but you can dispel a Darkness spell and lift the effect from everybody simultaneously. The Darkness happens to create a sphere that affects all, while Storm of Vengeance affects a 360 ft sphere and all the ground 5000ft below it.

But your interpretation is a hindrance and protects Storm of Vengeance, which makes it more interesting at least. So I concede and let's assume that instead.

I'm sorry but that's not "an interpretation" of my part.
Crawford says, black on white, "Dispel Magic can target the storm cloud (a magical effect) created by the Storm of Vengeance".
So by RAW you can "dispel Storm of Vengeance by casting Dispel Magic on the cloud". Nothing more.
Absolutely nothing else is said about the round-per-round events of the spell being targetable by Dispel Magic. Nothing is said about them being "magical effects" in the description, and the writing tend to make them instantaneous effects anyways except the last rounds's ones.
So whatever you say is only your own houserule on this.
At best, one could argue that you can use Dispel Magic to dispel the "lasting effects" such as difficult terrain, but only for the round you cast it, since on next round the Storm creates a new effect.

[LeonBH]

I'm sorry but that's not "an interpretation" of my part.
Crawford says, black on white, "Dispel Magic can target the storm cloud (a magical effect) created by the Storm of Vengeance".
So by RAW you can "dispel Storm of Vengeance by casting Dispel Magic on the cloud". Nothing more.
Absolutely nothing else is said about the round-per-round events of the spell being targetable by Dispel Magic. Nothing is said about them being "magical effects" in the description, and the writing tend to make them instantaneous effects anyways except the last rounds's ones.
So whatever you say is only your own houserule on this.
At best, one could argue that you can use Dispel Magic to dispel the "lasting effects" such as difficult terrain, but only for the round you cast it, since on next round the Storm creates a new effect.

I disagree, obviously, and this is not new information you're presenting. But you already knew that.

[JellyPooga]

To be honest, at this point the discussion is less about Storm of Vengeance and more about who has more items or allies. The comparison before was three third level slots (for Dispel Magic) and one ninth level slot (Storm of Vengeance). But now it's whoever has more allies.

That's several points against Storm of Vengeance, actually, because it's instead a discussion of how it needs to be supported by other methods.

I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion :smallconfused:. If dispelling SoV requires all manner of additional support (allies, items, etc.), isn't that a point in favour of SoV, which only requires a single caster of 17th level or higher (which was always on the table, because we're talking about SoV). It's not "just" a case of dispelling SoV if you need a team of guys with a specific load-out to dispel it; that's a pre-planned counter to something very specific ;

Lich (to himself) "Hmmm, I'd better bring a team of mages, preferably winged, with Dispel Magic prepared, a Helm of Teleportation...oh and I'd better prepare Teleport myself, in case one of those fools loses the helm. Just in case someone tries to stop me with this one specific spell that only a few people have even heard of..."

I mean, it's not outside of the realms of possibility if the Lich does his homework before launching his world-conquering plan, but it's also a lot of prep vs. one guy deciding to use one spell.

[LeonBH]

I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion :smallconfused:. If dispelling SoV requires all manner of additional support (allies, items, etc.), isn't that a point in favour of SoV, which only requires a single caster of 17th level or higher (which was always on the table, because we're talking about SoV). It's not "just" a case of dispelling SoV if you need a team of guys with a specific load-out to dispel it; that's a pre-planned counter to something very specific ;

Lich (to himself) "Hmmm, I'd better bring a team of mages, preferably winged, with Dispel Magic prepared, a Helm of Teleportation...oh and I'd better prepare Teleport myself, in case one of those fools loses the helm. Just in case someone tries to stop me with this one specific spell that only a few people have even heard of..."

I mean, it's not outside of the realms of possibility if the Lich does his homework before launching his world-conquering plan, but it's also a lot of prep vs. one guy deciding to use one spell.

From my perspective, when we first talked about dispelling the storm, it was just down to the value of three third level slots vs one ninth level slot. It evolved into the Lich bringing along backup to help against the spell, and such a discussion takes away from the discussion around the Storm of Vengeance spell, because now we're accounting for how much help each side can bring.

Obviously, if the Lich could bring a dozen casters with him, then you're toast regardless of the power of Storm of Vengeance unless you can also bring a dozen casters of your own. And then the power of Storm of Vengeance is made immaterial as we talk about the precise resources and numbers each side must bring to counter the other.

That is, the Storm just happened to be the nucleus of the discussion, but it isn't the end game. One side just opened with that spell, but it won't win the battle. The side with the most magic will win the battle, whether we were talking about Storm of Vengeance or Wish or Gate at the beginning of the thread.

[Chaosmancer]

Of course, that's a tactic to directly negate the storm itself. But if we're using Teleport, then it's perfectly possible for the Lich to just bampf in and remove the caster's concentration using scry and die tactics. (Which can be blocked by a Forbiddance spell or a Hallow spell... which can be bypassed by a Dream spell... which can be blocked by Leomund's Tiny Hut... and so on)

Yeah, this was my first thought reading this plan. Why not just teleport people to the druid and blast him. 9 fireballs is 72d6 damage. That's really likely to drop concentration.

Sure, there are lots of "what-ifs" and exceptions to this, but it leads to another point.

Marching your army in plain sight upon a city is... Not the best plan. Lich could easily teleport himself and some of his strongest lieutenants into a city, distracting the guards and allowing the army to approach during the distraction.

But this is a tangent that has little too do with the spell.

[Citan]

I disagree, obviously, and this is not new information you're presenting. But you already knew that.
I'm sorry but I didn't do it because I didn't feel there was any need for new information.

Let's try a reverse demonstration.
If you could just end the whole spell by just being within 120 feet of any of its effect, why would Crawford need to point out that the storm cloud is the spell effect?

Whatever way you look at it, it would be a useless complication to go and actually target specifically that when you get a whole 5000 feet high, 720 feet diameter cylinder from which any point is a sufficient target to end the whole thing.
And a spell that easy to dispel would never warrant a 9th level in the first place.

Ergo, it doesn't work like that.
It is not illogical when compared to spells like Darkness either: Darkness's cloud is directly affecting people. Whereas Storm is affecting indirectly. ;)

By the way, you guys are right, easiest way is probably to Teleport guys to the Druid and blast him... Provided you know how to identify and locate him. It's well and good to draw the Scrying joker, but Druid will have a +11 against it. Plus possibly advantage with Foresight if he has any clue that powerful enemies are looking for him.



That is, the Storm just happened to be the nucleus of the discussion, but it isn't the end game. One side just opened with that spell, but it won't win the battle. The side with the most magic will win the battle, whether we were talking about Storm of Vengeance or Wish or Gate at the beginning of the thread.
Totally agree on that too. Obviously this spell is great opener or to use as cold war tactic, but it's not encounter-defining unless opposing side was unprepared in the first place.
Only large-scale, encounter-defining spell imo is Meteor Swarm, but even that has some limits. :)

[LeonBH]

I'm sorry but I didn't do it because I didn't feel there was any need for new information.

Let's try a reverse demonstration.
If you could just end the whole spell by just being within 120 feet of any of its effect, why would Crawford need to point out that the storm cloud is the spell effect?

Whatever way you look at it, it would be a useless complication to go and actually target specifically that when you get a whole 5000 feet high, 720 feet diameter cylinder from which any point is a sufficient target to end the whole thing.
And a spell that easy to dispel would never warrant a 9th level in the first place.

Ergo, it doesn't work like that.
It is not illogical when compared to spells like Darkness either: Darkness's cloud is directly affecting people. Whereas Storm is affecting indirectly. ;)

That's the thing. The Storm is directly affecting the creatures. You can't point to a passage in RAW that says otherwise because it is the spell that produces the cloud and all of the effects. And JC is correct - the cloud is dispellable. But that doesn't preclude dispelling the area effects under the cloud, which is still part of the spell.

And I agree with you, this spell doesn't warrant a 9th level slot.

[Zalabim]

Yeah, this was my first thought reading this plan. Why not just teleport people to the druid and blast him. 9 fireballs is 72d6 damage. That's really likely to drop concentration.
I didn't want to have to return to this, but why not? Because you don't necessarily know where the Druid is, but you do know where the cloud is. SoV allows indirect targeting, and even with direct targeting, it's easier to spot an army than it is to spot one druid or a handful of adventurers. Scrying itself takes 10 minutes to cast, allows a saving throw, and faces effects that explicitly block all divination. Finally, if you do manage to bring in your mages by casting Teleport (maybe the druid is standing in plain sight), your group is also highly vulnerable to fireball spells, so it just comes down to initiative order.

[LeonBH]

I didn't want to have to return to this, but why not? Because you don't necessarily know where the Druid is, but you do know where the cloud is. SoV allows indirect targeting, and even with direct targeting, it's easier to spot an army than it is to spot one druid or a handful of adventurers. Scrying itself takes 10 minutes to cast, allows a saving throw, and faces effects that explicitly block all divination. Finally, if you do manage to bring in your mages by casting Teleport (maybe the druid is standing in plain sight), your group is also highly vulnerable to fireball spells, so it just comes down to initiative order.

To me, that is just another way of saying, "the side with more magic wins."

Someone could cast Tsunami at the opposing fortress, or Teleport in and cast Earthquake. Scry and die tactics aren't completely off the table if the scrying was pre-cast, and there are ways to work around anti-divination spells.

[Chaosmancer]

I didn't want to have to return to this, but why not? Because you don't necessarily know where the Druid is, but you do know where the cloud is. SoV allows indirect targeting, and even with direct targeting, it's easier to spot an army than it is to spot one druid or a handful of adventurers. Scrying itself takes 10 minutes to cast, allows a saving throw, and faces effects that explicitly block all divination. Finally, if you do manage to bring in your mages by casting Teleport (maybe the druid is standing in plain sight), your group is also highly vulnerable to fireball spells, so it just comes down to initiative order.

Oh i know there are tons of hoops to go through, but far less than dispelling it.

Also, initiative has nothing to do with it. You prepare to cast, then are teleported. Spells are cast as a reaction to the trigger of seeing the druid.

I wouldn't bother scrying either. Druid and therefore party are more than likely on the walls. That's where defenders tend to go, and even if you miss hitting the druid and breaking the storm, those mages and yourself teleported into the city can do a lot of damage and kill a lot of defenders. And our hypothetical lich has only lost replaceable undead.

But this is a complete tangent that doesn't address the point.

This spells main use is either killing cities or killing armies, not activities you will generally find in most games. It is far far too niche unless you know that you're going to be fighting in a war and decide that crushing the mooks is more important than dealing with the main threats. It might get used once every ten campaigns that happen to reach level 17

[Gall_t_Impuden]

Not sure if this was brought up before

But how do you get within 120 ft to cast dispel magic on a spell that can be cast 5,000ft in the sky?

[BeelzeBrandon]

As a DM, I think it’s important to compromise with the players. That being said, here’s an idea for compromise. (This wouldn’t be RAW as it isn’t specified in the wording.)

Each round, choose up to three (or x) effects that the storm of vengeance can create.

This will keep it from being to under/overpowered and it will keep the theme of actually being a storm rather than a series of different storm-like effect OR a giant cloud of chaos and destruction.

Personally, if I was the DM then I would rule it as accumulative since it’s a 9th level spell and in my imagination I like player characters (who have rightfully worked to earn the prestige of getting a 9th level Spell) to use epic abilities such as this.

[flat_footed]

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