is Contagion really as nasty as I'm reading?

[Chugger]

I always ignored Contagion - I think I have a memory of an old old version of it that stunk - maybe a false memory.

Anyway, no one in my AL group uses it - that I've seen. And ... it's devastating, if I'm understanding it correctly (please tell me if I'm not).

What I'm seeing is that if I cast it and score a "hit" (melee spell attack I think), the target - if it's not immune to disease - is hit right then by a nasty disease, the one I pick from the list.

So I pick the last one that causes it to be stunned until it's next turn if it takes any damage.

Let's pretend the rogue and fighter go after me - and then the monster I infected goes - except it's going nowhere. The Rogue or Fighter are going to hit it at least once and it will be stunned. If it's stunned it has no action - and I'm guessing the DM will let it roll its saving throws anyway - but at the very least it has to save on 3 before it can escape the disease (unless its ally casts some sort of resto or cure spell on it).

It's going to be "stun-locked" (like Rogues do or at least used to do in WoW), if I'm reading this correctly. It won't be able to attack or cast spells because we're going to hit it. It possibly should not be able to make STs against the dis. = but I'm guessing the DM will say it can (can it?).

I'd want to somehow get advantage to hit on that roll to first apply contagion, but if what I'm seeing is correct - it's a stun-lock death spell - and if a target saves in 3 rounds it is going to be so damaged at that point...and some of the other diseases are worth considering, too. I also like that one that makes the target vulnerable to damage, especially if we got a Pal ready to DS or some source of wicked-good single target damage. Odds are the target will miss at least one ST vs contagion, meaning 4 rounds to get out - and it might miss them all - but that doesn't matter - the point seems to be debuffing it so horribly (any damage stuns it until iirc the end of its next turn) - devastating. Anyway, pls tell me if I'm getting this wrong.

[Azgeroth]

they errata'd (come at me grammer natzis!) the spell, so they have to fail all 3 saves before it takes effect, also its a disease, alot of the big bads you really want it on are immune to disease..

[Contrast]

they errata'd

I'm not gonna come after your grammar but I'm pretty sure it was Sage Advice, not errata, in case you're actually looking for it.

[Millstone85]

I'm not gonna come after your grammar but I'm pretty sure it was Sage Advice, not errata, in case you're actually looking for it.Thanks!

Well, that's a poorly worded spell.

[Aett_Thorn]

Thanks!

Well, that's a poorly worded spell.

You mean a spell in 5e has poor wording, leading to unclear intent that needs to be Sage Advice'd? You're KIDDING me! /s

[Millstone85]

You mean a spell in 5e has poor wording, leading to unclear intent that needs to be Sage Advice'd? You're KIDDING me! /sOkay, that's yet another poorly worded spell.

[Oramac]

What I'm seeing is that if I cast it and score a "hit" (melee spell attack I think), the target - if it's not immune to disease - is hit right then by a nasty disease, the one I pick from the list.

snip

Strictly by RAW, you are indeed correct. The disease takes effect, the creature has disadvantage on the save against said disease, and is stunned if it is hit.

By RAI (per Sage Advice), the disease is supposed to take effect after 3 failed saves, which makes the spell rather significantly worse.

[Potato_Priest]

If you really want to hit with that initial spell attack then the war cleric’s channel divinity is the choice for you.

[Chugger]

Thanks everyone - had a feeling it was too good to be true.

So the use for this - outside of color - is to slap it on something nasty and somehow teleport or misty step out or fly away from it, leaving it to finish out it's saving throws - if possible having party members doing things from range to cause it to have disad on said STs.

I can't think what these might be right now - too late at night - brain is tired.

But if you can zip in, slap on the contagion, stay away from the thing while giving it disads on save - then move in when and if it fails 3 and is diseased - then - if the thing is really risky to try to kill other ways but is disease prone - then this might be worth doing. What that might be...? Maybe nothing.

[Pelle]

they errata'd (come at me grammer natzis!) the spell, so they have to fail all 3 saves before it takes effect, also its a disease, alot of the big bads you really want it on are immune to disease..

It's spelled "nazi", not "natzi".

[Sigreid]

Strictly by RAW, you are indeed correct. The disease takes effect, the creature has disadvantage on the save against said disease, and is stunned if it is hit.

By RAI (per Sage Advice), the disease is supposed to take effect after 3 failed saves, which makes the spell rather significantly worse.
Funny, on my first reading of the spell the understanding I had was that it didn't take effect until the third failed save. I always assumed that it's purpose was to weaken a target group before you engage.

[BoxANT]

sage advice was a suggestion to tone down the spell iirc.

RAW it is extremely powerful, but mainly if you use Slimy Doom (dis con & stun).

however, disease is removed by a second level spell (and lay on hands), you have to be in melee range, and is 5th level.

personally, i think it should auto fail against undead & constructs.

[Strangways]

It's a really devastating spell if you can make it stick, but it's very hard to make it stick. It uses something like a Death Save mechanic in which the target has to fail 3 CON saves before the disease kicks in. That's unlikely to happen except against targets with weak CON saves. If you're going to try using it, at least try to have a Wild Magic Sorcerer standing by to Bend Luck on your target's saves.

[Talamare]

The wording on the original RAW was completely broken.

At the end of each of the target's turns, it must make a Con saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease's effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves.

Wow that's bad...

[Oramac]

The wording on the original RAW was completely broken.

At the end of each of the target's turns, it must make a Con saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease's effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves.

Wow that's bad...

And Slimy Doom gave it disadvantage on said Con save, plus stunned it when it took damage.

Totally broken by RAW. But also, a lot of fun for the players!

[Provo]

It's a really devastating spell if you can make it stick, but it's very hard to make it stick. It uses something like a Death Save mechanic in which the target has to fail 3 CON saves before the disease kicks in. That's unlikely to happen except against targets with weak CON saves. If you're going to try using it, at least try to have a Wild Magic Sorcerer standing by to Bend Luck on your target's saves.

It is not unlikely to get three Failed Con saves. It is only unlikely to get 3 in a row. Even if the caster succeeds, it may take 5 turns before the spell affects the creature.

I believe somebody stated that there was no spell errata, but there was a sage advice tweet. That tells me that it is up to the DM to interpret the spell.

Until 3 fails or 3 successes, I would decide if a creature is affected based on their most recent fail/success. Definitely not RAW, but it seems like a good middle ground between the RAW interpretations that seem excessively strong and excessively weak.

Edit: then again, ^this would still leave you with the slimy doom problem that Oranac pointed out

[Citan]

Funny, on my first reading of the spell the understanding I had was that it didn't take effect until the third failed save. I always assumed that it's purpose was to weaken a target group before you engage.
Same, I never understood it otherwise.

I mean, a spell that has no-concentration and lasts 7 days? Three fails before it really takes effect is a very very fair trade.
If you want something directly useful in combat, better use Bestow Curse: immediate effect and you also get to impose disadvantage on saves of an attribute.

[Cynthaer]

It's funny, I actually thought the wording was clear upon a close reading (not necessarily good). I mean, I can see why people would get confused, but I don't see the Sage Advice interpretation as anything but RAW:


Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.

So this is the first confusing bit, because intuitively, you'd think "being afflicted with a disease" would obviously mean "suffering the effects of the disease".


At the end of each of the target’s turns, it must make a Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease’s effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves. After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends.

And this is the second confusing bit.

Putting myself in the head of the writer, I'm certain they intended this to mean that the effects begin if and when they fail three saving throws, then last for the spell duration.

The intent of the spell is clearly not to debuff a dragon mid-combat, but rather to debilitate a political enemy or weaken an enemy commander who you can't kill outright for some reason. Like most spells with a duration measured in days, it's a strategic spell, not a tactical one.

All that said, in retrospect it's obvious that the spell's wording would cause confusion. Reading it top to bottom in the normal mindframe of "how does this spell help me win a fight", it's easy to see it as: "The disease kicks in immediately, but they might recover instead of going down for the full 7 days."

If I were to rewrite it, I'd probably do this:


Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, you begin to afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.

At the end of each of the target’s turns, it must make a Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the creature begins suffering the disease's effects, which last for the spell's duration, and the creature stops making these saves. After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature instead recovers from the disease, and the spell ends.

Since this spell induces a natural disease in its target, any effect that removes a disease or otherwise ameliorates a disease’s effects apply to it.

In the interest of complete fairness, my wording is a bit longer, and in a physical PHB that's a real consideration. I'm not trying to excuse bad wording, just pointing it out.

[CapnZapp]

however, disease is removed by a second level spell (and lay on hands), you have to be in melee range, and is 5th level.

Spending a 5th level slot to insta-win against any solo boss makes for a bad boring broken game.

Few monsters have the capability of player characters. Few monsters can remove disease.

Having to be in melee range could be considered risky, except the battle is won if you hit your target, and you can transform into a big bag of HP if you don't.

[CapnZapp]

It's a really devastating spell if you can make it stick, but it's very hard to make it stick. It uses something like a Death Save mechanic in which the target has to fail 3 CON saves before the disease kicks in. That's unlikely to happen except against targets with weak CON saves. If you're going to try using it, at least try to have a Wild Magic Sorcerer standing by to Bend Luck on your target's saves.
The brokenness regards the spell as written in the Player's Handbook, not the nerfed into uselessness version Sage is trying to sell as RAI:


The wording on the original RAW was completely broken.

At the end of each of the target's turns, it must make a Con saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease's effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves.

Wow that's bad...

The problem with the RAW version is that it never lives to make three saves - it's dead by then, since it suffers the effects at least one full round.

Possibly three. Three rounds is functionally equivalent to "for ever" in the context of a D&D boss fight combat, since every competent party focuses its fire to bring down the BBEG before the Contagion wears off.

The spell really absolutely must gateway effects that strong with a save, that legendary monsters can choose to succeed at.