XP/Difficulty Changes For Consecutive Encounters?

[DragonBaneDM]

Heya playground!

So tonight I'm running this three-stage boss battle for my Level 6 game, full of terrain stuff, fun ways to use skills mid-battle, and a whole bunch of fire damage. I don't do these kinds of fights too often (they're a bit video gamey to show up constantly), but when I do they've been really fun! They won't have a chance to heal or anything between the first two stages, but I'm thinking before the third stage I can gauge if they need a round or two before I fire up stage 3. You know, for dramatic effect.

Here's my question though. I know Tier 2 PCs can handle back to back to back Medium/Hard encounters, but they've (usually) got a few rounds between to get off a Prayer of Healing or a Lesser Restoration for any save effects, even if they don't have the time or opportunity for a short rest.

Would any of you recommend changing XP rewards or altering difficulty values while calculating what this fight should be worth? I'm not treating it like they're all part of the same fight, but maybe there's some math out there I'm not aware of yet?

[Unoriginal]

Why are you not treating it as if they were all part of the same fight?

[DragonBaneDM]

Why are you not treating it as if they were all part of the same fight?

That's a fair question. So I'm not using the XP multiplier for determining difficulty (right now) because even though the stages are planned as being one after the other, they're not at the same time.

So at the moment I'm treating them as three seperate encounters.

[Athoren]

just calculate them as separate encounters then add them together

[Azgeroth]

just to be clear, are we saying a 3 stage fight like a WoW Raid Boss? or are we saying 3 stages like 3 'waves'??

is there any enemy combatants in all 3 stages?

what happens in each stage?

are the events/affects set, or can the PC's stop or alter them? are they akin to lair actions?

without knowing more specifics its hard to know what kind of reward is appropriate.

[Easy_Lee]

Not to throw another wrench into things, but do you expect your party to consume resources at every stage? Are there any skill challenges in there that a rogue or bard could just knock out? If so, you might disregard a stage and make things a little simpler.

[DragonBaneDM]

just to be clear, are we saying a 3 stage fight like a WoW Raid Boss? or are we saying 3 stages like 3 'waves'??

is there any enemy combatants in all 3 stages?

what happens in each stage?

are the events/affects set, or can the PC's stop or alter them? are they akin to lair actions?

without knowing more specifics its hard to know what kind of reward is appropriate.

It's a three stage fight similar to WoW or other RPGs, yeah! There are enemy combatants in each stage, but they can be dealt with either through combat or skill checks (Mostly Arcana, Sleight of Hand, and Athletics)

Happy to go into more detail! You're right, with just my explanation in the original post, it's tough to know exactly what's going on.

So Stage 1 is a crazy artificer controlling this massive rock/golem thing through McGuffin gemstones the party has been chasing. Damage to the artificer goes to the golem, and whenever the artificer he makes an attack, the golem mimics it. It comes out to be a CR 5 monster with a multiattack since they share a health pool.

Stage 2 happens whenever they party either disables/steals the gems through skill checks or "kills" the golem. Golem shuts down, and artificer angrily summons his inventions he thought he wouldn't need. CR 3 Artificer, two CR 1/2 Library Automatons, a CR 1 Weaving Spider, and CR 1/2 Alehouse Drake with construct traits. PCs can use skills to disable/dismantle the shoddily-made constructs midbattle. This is the toughest stage, but comes out to an adjusted 2,800 XP Medium Encounter.

Stage 3 happens when artificer goes down, so there still migh be some constructs around to brawl. Soul of artificer gets transferred to the injured golem, it fires back up and is a CR 4 monster and a whole bunch of lava rivers burst out, changing the terrain. PCs can either fight the golem outright or use equipment and skills around the volcano lab to redirect lava flow towards the boss, weakening the golem and eventually encasing it in igneous rock.

Put them all together, and they're worth 5,300 adjusted XP, which is actually still below the Deadly threshold for 4 level 6 PCs.

[Unoriginal]

There should be no XP changes for consecutive encounters.

If you're making different phases where the number or the nature of the enemies change, it's not different from killing a group of enemies, then have a second group shows up.

I would argue most of those Medium encounters will likely be waltzed through, though.

[DragonBaneDM]

Not to throw another wrench into things, but do you expect your party to consume resources at every stage? Are there any skill challenges in there that a rogue or bard could just knock out? If so, you might disregard a stage and make things a little simpler.

I do! The warlock is a fan of spamming Darkness and using up spell slots defensively (Shield, Mirror Image), the Alchemist has saved up all of her ways to give disadvantage and I know is itching to use them here, and the Paladin uses and loses spell slots pretty quickly using smite and (if I'm being honest) loses Concentration a good bit when she tries something like Divine Favor.

That leaves the Rogue as the resource light member, who's more of an intrigue-based social build, but I still think he'll get a chance to shine here using skills and darting around the battlefield to interact with terrain/features. The party has made known that their first priority is going to be ripping off the gemstones from the Artificer, but the DC is pretty high and I plan on getting a few solid licks in first/trying to keep him at a range for a while.



There should be no XP changes for consecutive encounters.

If you're making different phases where the number or the nature of the enemies change, it's not different from killing a group of enemies, then have a second group shows up.

I would argue most of those Medium encounters will likely be waltzed through, though.

You'd think so, right? These guys aren't the most optimized bunch, and they actually are coming off a Medium encounter that knocked two of them out. So I'm softballing a little bit here, trying to figure out how much they can take, or if I just got lucky that fight.

[Easy_Lee]

You'd think so, right? These guys aren't the most optimized bunch, and they actually are coming off a Medium encounter that knocked two of them out. So I'm softballing a little bit here, trying to figure out how much they can take, or if I just got lucky that fight.

One idea: calculate them as normal encounters, don't make any of the encounters too hard, and have a plan for what to do if the PCs fail.

[Azgeroth]

ok, so i would divide the HP of the construct/golem in stage 1 between the 'mcguffin gems' so if they do both fight the thing, and destroy/disable the gems it has a net gain. (thus neither becomes pointless).

i would give a small (100?) xp for each gem ON TOP of the xp for the golem (to reward creative problem solving)

for phase 2, i would have the artificer try and stay out of the fray (using the lesser constructs as 'human shields' for as long as possible.

i would give a short rest after phase 2, and then have other constructs come out of the wood work (with the artificer gone, and no one managing the control mechanisms, things go hey-wire) so in this phase 3, start having the place come apart, constructs doing random things (maybe even fighting each other).

possible skill checks to realise whats going on and try to stop or prevent it, alternatively attempt to control enough of the constructs to better enable an escape.

in short, calculate the total xp, give that, then bonuses for anything that isnt. 'i hit the thing'

[DragonBaneDM]

ok, so i would divide the HP of the construct/golem in stage 1 between the 'mcguffin gems' so if they do both fight the thing, and destroy/disable the gems it has a net gain. (thus neither becomes pointless).

i would give a small (100?) xp for each gem ON TOP of the xp for the golem (to reward creative problem solving)

for phase 2, i would have the artificer try and stay out of the fray (using the lesser constructs as 'human shields' for as long as possible.

i would give a short rest after phase 2, and then have other constructs come out of the wood work (with the artificer gone, and no one managing the control mechanisms, things go hey-wire) so in this phase 3, start having the place come apart, constructs doing random things (maybe even fighting each other).

possible skill checks to realise whats going on and try to stop or prevent it, alternatively attempt to control enough of the constructs to better enable an escape.

in short, calculate the total xp, give that, then bonuses for anything that isnt. 'i hit the thing'


One idea: calculate them as normal encounters, don't make any of the encounters too hard, and have a plan for what to do if the PCs fail.

Thanks for the advice, guys! I'm actually thinking I need to beef up my 1st and 3rd stage. Alone, the first stage barely even registers as an Easy encounter (CR 5 Monster and all) and they're probably gonna take the skill route. But I like assigning HP values to the gems as well, even if that does make the monster weaker over time. (Each one of them disables one of the golem's attacks). And the third stage doesn't even register as Easy. So I think adding some crazy constructs acting as if under the effects of the confusion spell could be just what it needs.

I'm unsure about giving a short rest in between stages 2 and 3. That recharges the Warlock/Sorcerer (the most optimized one in the party) And honestly, I don't like the feeling of having an hour in between fights with something that's already in the room. But I do want to give them some time to use healing items/powers like the Alchemist's healing draught, lay on hands, and share potions with each other. Without a truly dedicated healer, they kinda need some time together to pick each other up.

[Tanarii]

If you're running back to back encounters, just treat them as normal for difficulty and XP. Unless the system would normally expect a Short rest in between, in which case you should expect them to be more challenging. That's typically between each Deadly encounter, or between a 2nd and 3rd Medium or Hard encounter. Roughly speaking.

If the entire thing is less than one Deadly encounter worth of XP, you're good to go without worrying about if they'd normally expect short rests. And this should be roughly 1/3 of the adventuring day they can handle.

[Azgeroth]

ok, you could give the golem construct resistances, aswell as other abilities, and have the gemstones disable those, have more mooks turn up at phase2..

i suggested giving a short rest after that due to my suggestion that phase 3 be more of a 'chase' skill challenge, so having spell slots shouldn't affect that too much (admittedly i don't know the spell list so that's your call)

[DragonBaneDM]

GUYS!

It went great! Players had a blast, and throwing in that extra wave of robos proved to be a really great comedic break and still managed to disable stuff.

Ended up giving three rounds in between 2 and 3. Folks healed up and made some checks to realize that the fight wasn't over just yet.

No one got KO'd (technically), but I popped Strength of the Grave on the Shadow Sorcerer/Celestial Warlock, so that always feels good. The Paladin especially had a real great game, which was thematic. She had a bone to grind with this boss.

Thanks for the advice! It worked so well!