list of undead monsters by cr for a more flexible version of animate dead

[Red Bear]

so one of my player (necromancer wizard) asked me to have the possibility to animate stronger undeads instead of many weak ones, so I told him he could animate any combination with the same total xp, so for example instead of using one level 4 slots to control 4 skeletons (cr 1/4 50xp each) he can control instead 1 cr1 monster (200xp).
first of all, do you think this is balanced? encounters with the same total xp are supposed to be kinda equally strong right? second, can you tell me an undead monster that would make sense to animate for every cr from 1/2 to 5?
thirdly, he would like to equip his undead with armor and weapons he finds, how should I del with that? should he be allowed? does it change the cr? is it too powerful?

[Demonslayer666]

It doesn't sound too unreasonable. I'd probably allow it in my game, depending on the situation.

For a list of undead by CR, Change the type to undead:
http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/monsters/

Skeletons already use weapons and armor, if you bump their damage and AC, it would increase their CR, but probably not be prohibitive.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It doesn't sound too unreasonable. I'd probably allow it in my game, depending on the situation.

For a list of undead by CR, Change the type to undead:
http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/monsters/

Skeletons already use weapons and armor, if you bump their damage and AC, it would increase their CR, but probably not be prohibitive.

AC is the easiest change to assess: every extra two points increases the DC by about 0.5 (because the defensive CR goes up by 1, assuming the creature's AC was on par before, which most are at low levels). Weapons are harder, but still pretty easy to assess. Changes of about 5 DPR (averaged over 3 rounds) change the offense CR by 1. Roughly.

[Red Bear]

AC is the easiest change to assess: every extra two points increases the DC by about 0.5 (because the defensive CR goes up by 1, assuming the creature's AC was on par before, which most are at low levels). Weapons are harder, but still pretty easy to assess. Changes of about 5 DPR (averaged over 3 rounds) change the offense CR by 1. Roughly.

I never heard this, where did you get it? it's really useful

[PhoenixPhyre]

I never heard this, where did you get it? it's really useful

It's an extrapolation from the monster construction rules in the DMG.

Basically, each monster's CR comes from two parts averaged together:

1) offensive: set by average DPR over 3 rounds, considering a best-case (all attacks hit, all aoes hit two people and both fail their saves) scenario. Modified by either attack bonus or save bonus--for every two different from the reference value, the oCR changes by 1 in that direction. Offensive features usually modify the average DPR or the attack bonus by some fixed value (orc's aggressive increases the DPR by 2, for example).

2) defensive: set by the monster's average HP (average over HD). Modified by AC--for every two points of AC different from the reference, the dCR changes by 1.

Thus, if all you do is add armor, every 2 points it changes from its current value (which tracks the reference value pretty well) changes the dCR by 1 and thus the total CR by 0.5. Roughly. Health is harder, since 99% of monsters are under-CR (almost by half) as far as health goes.

Each CR is separated by about 5 (less at the low end, a bit more at the high end) DPR.

The full statistics and the DMG tables can be found in spreadsheet form in my Monster Data Sheet (https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjKe-YTGxfZWtXdXEPdNGlYEmWlc).

[Flashy]

I never heard this, where did you get it? it's really useful

It looks like a (rather clever) reverse engineering of the monster design tables from the DMG. Edit: ninja’d


As for the question of equivalent exp totals being balanced, it should be mostly fine but there are a few undead you’ll want to be extremely careful about letting players summon. The rules for players and monsters are different enough that abilities which work fine in normal combats get messy if they’re used by the PCs.

When a Shadow (CR 1/2) kills a non-evil creature a new shadow rises from the corpse 1d4 hours later. This is a neat narrative tool, but hands the PCs a low-cost way to borderline exterminate cities.

The Banshee (CR 4) can wail 1/day, forcing all nearby creatures to save or drop to zero hitpoints. This works with PCs because they make death saves at zero HP. With monsters, they’re just strictly dead if they fail the saving throw. You could allow all monsters to make death saves (tedious) or tag death saves for NPCs onto the banshee’s wail (inconsistent) but I personally just wouldn’t allow players access to banshees.

[Red Bear]

thank you all :)

[Arenabait]

just a reminder: Crawling Claws, CR0, (0 or 10XP). That's about 20 crawling claws, which could potentially be an issue.

[Joe the Rat]

just a reminder: Crawling Claws, CR0, (0 or 10XP). That's about 20 crawling claws, which could potentially be an issue.

A crawling claw swarm comes out to CR1 though, and is far less of a hassle to manage. (I always consider swarms a valid summon option).

The CR approach is good, but also keep in mind that some undead types are specifically available through Create Undead (and you could certainly sub in some options there). What you really want to do here is stick to animated bodies and parts - No Incorporeals.
Sometimes it's a matter of starting with something tougher - not a Skeleton, but a Type II Yuan-Ti Malison Skeleton. There are specific changes skeletons and zombies get from the original creature (stat changes, powers gained), but IIRC the CR does not change much.

[Red Bear]

Sometimes it's a matter of starting with something tougher - not a Skeleton, but a Type II Yuan-Ti Malison Skeleton. There are specific changes skeletons and zombies get from the original creature (stat changes, powers gained), but IIRC the CR does not change much.

really? where did you see changes from the original creature in skeletons and zombies?

[Joe the Rat]

really? where did you see changes from the original creature in skeletons and zombies?

I compared the monster stats to the skeleton (minotaur, war horse) and zombie (ogre, beholder) versions.

Basically...
Skeletons:
Undead traits (do not need to eat, breathe, sleep)
Reduce mental Stats to I 6 W 8 Ch 5 unless the original creature is lower.
May lose some natural armor (this was the case for minotaurs)
Gains darkvision if it did not have it originally
vulnerability to bludgeoning
immunity to poison dmg; poisoned, exhaustion conditions

Zombies
Undead traits (do not need to eat, breathe, sleep)
Stat Modifiers: Dex -2 Con +2, Mental Stats to I 3 W 6 Ch 5 unless the original creature is lower. Note AC will likely be lower.
+Wisdom save proficiency
Gains darkvision if it did not have it originally
immunity to poison dmg; poisoned conditions
Undead Fortitude
Slam attack: 1d6+str if no other weapons/attacks are available

Everything else remains the same. Note that some "magical" abilities can carry over - zombie beholder gets all his eye rays for some reason. I'd put that to the DM's discretion.

You probably do want to check CRs on the final versions. The minotaur skeleton and ogre zombie drop to CR 2 (originally CR 3), Most likely from coming in with lowered AC. I'm guessing zombies will always be about -1CR.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I compared the monster stats to the skeleton (minotaur, war horse) and zombie (ogre, beholder) versions.

Basically...
Skeletons:
Undead traits (do not need to eat, breathe, sleep)
Reduce mental Stats to I 6 W 8 Ch 5 unless the original creature is lower.
May lose some natural armor (this was the case for minotaurs)
Gains darkvision if it did not have it originally
vulnerability to bludgeoning
immunity to poison dmg; poisoned, exhaustion conditions

Zombies
Undead traits (do not need to eat, breathe, sleep)
Stat Modifiers: Dex -2 Con +2, Mental Stats to I 3 W 6 Ch 5 unless the original creature is lower. Note AC will likely be lower.
+Wisdom save proficiency
Gains darkvision if it did not have it originally
immunity to poison dmg; poisoned conditions
Undead Fortitude
Slam attack: 1d6+str if no other weapons/attacks are available

Everything else remains the same. Note that some "magical" abilities can carry over - zombie beholder gets all his eye rays for some reason. I'd put that to the DM's discretion.

You probably do want to check CRs on the final versions. The minotaur skeleton and ogre zombie drop to CR 2 (originally CR 3), Most likely from coming in with lowered AC. I'm guessing zombies will always be about -1CR.

Undead fortitude is worth (at those CRs) 7 HP (or about 0.25 CR), the immunities are no effect. -2 AC is about -0.5 CR. +2 CON is +HD HP, so the net is about 0 for a zombie. But there's lots of other things happening, especially with stranger creatures. Better to recalculate from scratch when building the monsters. Set the CR you want and adjust.

By stats using the DMG calculations, Minotaurs are about 1 CR high (coming in exactly at CR 2). Minotaur skeletons are CR 1.25 by calculations. Both get the bump up because their offensive CRs are 2.5 (unchanged between the two), mainly from a high attack bonus.

The spreadsheet in my signature breaks all of that down and gives the values for the traits. I'm working on a write-up of the whole monster balance thing, but it's taking a while since there's so much stuff.