Eberron Lore Questions and Answers!

[Babale]

As a DM who has ran games in Eberron a very large number of times, I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the setting. I own and have read through most of the sourcebooks (although I still need to read through the novels -- but as I understand it, the idea is that they aren't precisely "canon" anyhow -- they are just AN interpretation of Eberron) and have read through most of Keith Baker's own Eberron discussions. As Eberron is one of my favorite settings, and our resident Planescape Q&A thread tends to stir clear of it, I thought I'd open up an avenue for discussion of Eberron as well.

I put this in the 3.5 forum because that's where I've run most of my Eberron games, but I have read through some of the 4e material and in general it's pretty good, when it comes to Eberron. I would love to see Eberron come to 5e but until then, 3.5 is where I consider Eberron most "at home".

So, let's kick things off! Any questions about Eberron?

Quick note: Eberron has a lot of questions that are purposefully unanswered. In general, let's try to stir clear of those. If you ask nicely, I might share my own theories, but let's save that for later.

[KillingAScarab]

Here is a link to the last Eberron topic I am aware of: Eberron Q&A Thread: By Popular Demand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489584-Eberron-Q-amp-A-Thread-By-Popular-Demand)

Here's a question I don't believe was answered in that thread. Did anyone ever attempt to create a cure for lycanthropy? The spell or perhaps alchemical equivalent of an inoculation? This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21064096&postcount=199) goes into how dangerous lycanthropy became, and I wonder if anyone was forward thinking enough to try to prevent a new outbreak.

[Afgncaap5]

This one is probably more about personal takes and speculation than on identifying any particular bit of lore, but...

The ECS suggests that Khorvaire has a weirdly inflated number of remote, mysterious monasteries where martial arts are taught in one way or another, and their origin is never really elaborated upon that I've noticed. Where'd they all come from?! Did Sarlona export a huge number of martial instructors for one reason or another? Are they remnants of old goblinoid combat styles that are all but unknown nowadays? Was pre-War of the Mark Galifar weirdly obsessed with developing new and outlandish fighting styles?

Ultimately, the easiest answer to this (and, in fact, most Eberron questions) is probably "Whatever helps the DM tell the best story", but for some reason this weird detail about there being a lot of mysterious monasteries on a continent that has late renaissance/early modern era transportation and communication technology equivalents seems odd, at least to me. Having said that, if the books talk more about them and I just missed it, that'd be awesome.

[Sir_Chivalry]

This one is probably more about personal takes and speculation than on identifying any particular bit of lore, but...

The ECS suggests that Khorvaire has a weirdly inflated number of remote, mysterious monasteries where martial arts are taught in one way or another, and their origin is never really elaborated upon that I've noticed. Where'd they all come from?! Did Sarlona export a huge number of martial instructors for one reason or another? Are they remnants of old goblinoid combat styles that are all but unknown nowadays? Was pre-War of the Mark Galifar weirdly obsessed with developing new and outlandish fighting styles?

Ultimately, the easiest answer to this (and, in fact, most Eberron questions) is probably "Whatever helps the DM tell the best story", but for some reason this weird detail about there being a lot of mysterious monasteries on a continent that has late renaissance/early modern era transportation and communication technology equivalents seems odd, at least to me. Having said that, if the books talk more about them and I just missed it, that'd be awesome.

Answer to your question is all three actually. Sarlonan humans are the ancestors of all Khorvaire humans and both the Lhazar Principalities and the later refugees of the Sundering likely had monks. But so too would the Dhakaani Empire, focused on martial strength and improvement of the self (as well as duty and honour). And yes Galifer likely had (Aundairan/Thranish/Karrnathi) martial orders

[Babale]

Here is a link to the last Eberron topic I am aware of: Eberron Q&A Thread: By Popular Demand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489584-Eberron-Q-amp-A-Thread-By-Popular-Demand)

Here's a question I don't believe was answered in that thread. Did anyone ever attempt to create a cure for lycanthropy? The spell or perhaps alchemical equivalent of an inoculation? This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21064096&postcount=199) goes into how dangerous lycanthropy became, and I wonder if anyone was forward thinking enough to try to prevent a new outbreak.

Certainly, cures for lycanthropy were sought out and on occasion even discovered. But there are a few issues with this...

1) Natural lycanthropes cannot be cured. Their "affliction" is as core a part of their nature as a human's "humanity" or an orc's "orcishness" so curing them is impossible. You couldn't "cure" an orc by turning him into a human, could you? It's even more difficult than, say, transforming an orc into a human -- because a lycan's natural shapeshifting abilities (represented by their subtype) means that you cannot easily "lock them in" to an alternate form. You could probably come up with some sort of spell that would lock a natural lycan into any of their three forms, but that isn't really a cure.

2) Curing lycans is extremely difficult, and a big part of the problem is that the lycan must be WILLING to be cured. While many afflicted lycans might be happy to have their curse removed while in their humanoid form, the emotions they experience in hybrid or animal form could prevent them from being "willing". Further, especially during the Purge, the Silver Flame relentlessly pursued lycans -- do you really expect them to trust a particular priest who claims to offer a cure? It would be a rare set of circumstances where a willing lycan and sympathetic priest would come in contact long enough to develop a cure.

3) Like all custom spells, researching a cure for lycanthropy is a long and arduous task. While not impossible, conventional wisdom and church dogma long held it to be impossible, so a lot of priests didn't even try. In the modern day, with lycanthropy less of an existential threat, some groups of priests have sat down and found a cure; but during the days leading up to the purge, it was easier to use the simplest cure: a silver weapon, inserted fatally into the body.


This one is probably more about personal takes and speculation than on identifying any particular bit of lore, but...

The ECS suggests that Khorvaire has a weirdly inflated number of remote, mysterious monasteries where martial arts are taught in one way or another, and their origin is never really elaborated upon that I've noticed. Where'd they all come from?! Did Sarlona export a huge number of martial instructors for one reason or another? Are they remnants of old goblinoid combat styles that are all but unknown nowadays? Was pre-War of the Mark Galifar weirdly obsessed with developing new and outlandish fighting styles?

Ultimately, the easiest answer to this (and, in fact, most Eberron questions) is probably "Whatever helps the DM tell the best story", but for some reason this weird detail about there being a lot of mysterious monasteries on a continent that has late renaissance/early modern era transportation and communication technology equivalents seems odd, at least to me. Having said that, if the books talk more about them and I just missed it, that'd be awesome.

There really are a large number of sources for these monasteries, though. Eberron has a much, much longer history than our own world -- while the current, human-dominated era seems to change at a similar pace to our own world (although even then, a 100-year war in the vain of the Last War is very long for the modern world, which in many ways Eberron is) the older eras lasted ridiculously long periods of time. The Dhakaani Empire lasted for 10,000 years, which is about how long humans in the real world have been sitting in one place instead of following animals to hunt. The Dhakaani also used a fighting style and weapons that would take very intense training to master -- spiked chains would require very complicated and precise forms to use effectively, without hurting yourself. Meanwhile, you've also got a whole lot of threats that have to be dealt with, and a lot of incentive to keep them secret. If you're fighting servants of a Lord of Dust, you don't want everyone and their grandma to find out about it, or you risk doing that Lord of Dust's recruitment for him. Same thing goes for people fighting the Daelkyr, or Quori, or any other extraplanar threat. So you end up with a lot of secret orders fighting secret wars against secret threats for thousands of years, and developing their own styles of combat to do it. It's not a realistic scenario by any means, but it sets up the pulp action world of Eberron very, very well, which is why you end up with so many monasteries or other secret fighting styles, like the Gatekeeper druids.

Also, and I'm not sure if this was intended or just a happy coincidence, but Tome of Battle has the Rakshasa as a source of these ancient martial arts, and in Eberron the Rakshasa live in Khyber and try to free the Lords of Dust, and end up setting up elaborate cults to do so. If we take the Tome of Battle Rakshasa and put them in Khyber (where they fit very well), it makes total sense that their devotees may use TOB techniques in combat; and it also makes sense that the ancient monk orders fighting them would use these techniques as well.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I've had two questions which for reasons I never posed to Baker himself when he canvases for subjects to write blog posts on from Patreon.

Keith Baker's Blog (http://keith-baker.com/)

Though "non-canon" as his current writings do not constitute official WotC material, I'd say that given the choice between ignoring Baker's non-canon writing and taking all of Eberron's sourcebooks as canon vs. taking the sourcebooks Baker wrote or had a hand in and his blog posts/dragonmarks/etc and eschewing (or taking with a grain of salt) the sourcebooks and materials not written by Baker, the latter option certainly provides a much saner world where nations and peoples have clear themes and complex motivations both. And where Thrane didn't turn away Cyran refugees after the Mourning because WHY WOULD THEY?

Edit note: The above opinions are not in any way pertaining to this discussion, we should use WotC's sourcebooks even if they aren't written by Baker

So two questions:

#1. Do we ever find out where Halflings come from? All the other races have some origin or place they came from, dwarves from the Frostfell, elves and gnomes from Thelanis, hobgoblins, lizardfolk, kobolds and orcs appear to be the original races of Khorvaire, and shifters, changelings, ogres and humans from various parts of Sarlona. But the halflings just live in a part of the world that was apparently occupied by goblins and lizardfolk both for quite some time, and have no grand history.

Obvious answer, they are among the goblins and lizardfolk as the original races of Khorvaire, and in keeping with the dinosaur motif, as the larger predators/empires moved out, the small scavenger types moved in, the halflings (who might have always lived in Talenta) simply expanding where there was no competition now.

But does anyone know anything less speculative? Or have different speculation even?

#2. Does the Order of Rekkenmark accept Bone Knights into their ranks? The fluff for both seems to imply some difficulty and tension between the two groups, with the Order primarily anti-Seeker (the faithful of the Blood of Vol) and penalizing those with necromantic powers in the affiliation score, while the Bone Knights mostly comprise extremely loyal soldiers selected for additional training, most likely at Fort Bone (a frontier outpost in the Talenta Plains) which is VERY heavily Seeker-aligned. Now of course there might be students of Rekkenmark Academy who would graduate with honours and be Seekers, join the Emerald Claw or become Bone Knights (or heck all three) but would the Order of Rekkenmark choose to extend membership (or after that, encourage promotion) to such a candidate?

[Thurbane]

The Woeforged are mentioned in passing in The Forge of War (p.85).

Is there any more lore on them anywhere, and any stats? If not, any decent home-brewed stats?

[Babale]

I've had two questions which for reasons I never posed to Baker himself when he canvases for subjects to write blog posts on from Patreon.

Keith Baker's Blog (http://keith-baker.com/)

Though "non-canon" as his current writings do not constitute official WotC material, I'd say that given the choice between ignoring Baker's non-canon writing and taking all of Eberron's sourcebooks as canon vs. taking the sourcebooks Baker wrote or had a hand in and his blog posts/dragonmarks/etc and eschewing (or taking with a grain of salt) the sourcebooks and materials not written by Baker, the latter option certainly provides a much saner world where nations and peoples have clear themes and complex motivations both. And where Thrane didn't turn away Cyran refugees after the Mourning because WHY WOULD THEY?


So two questions:

#1. Do we ever find out where Halflings come from? All the other races have some origin or place they came from, dwarves from the Frostfell, elves and gnomes from Thelanis, hobgoblins, lizardfolk, kobolds and orcs appear to be the original races of Khorvaire, and shifters, changelings, ogres and humans from various parts of Sarlona. But the halflings just live in a part of the world that was apparently occupied by goblins and lizardfolk both for quite some time, and have no grand history.

Obvious answer, they are among the goblins and lizardfolk as the original races of Khorvaire, and in keeping with the dinosaur motif, as the larger predators/empires moved out, the small scavenger types moved in, the halflings (who might have always lived in Talenta) simply expanding where there was no competition now.

But does anyone know anything less speculative? Or have different speculation even?

The Halflings do originally come from the Talenta Plains -- there isn't any information about them migrating from somewhere else, and the first we hear about the halflings is the development of the mark of hospitality. As far as any canon sources go, the halflings have always wandered their plains, riding and herding dinosaurs. Keep in mind that the goblinoids didn't rule all of Khorvaire with an iron fist -- you had the lizardfolk kingdoms, the orcish kingdoms, and the halfling tribes. Some of the orcish kingdoms actually got fairly powerful. So the halflings probably did exactly what they do now -- wandered the marginal lands with their herds.


#2. Does the Order of Rekkenmark accept Bone Knights into their ranks? The fluff for both seems to imply some difficulty and tension between the two groups, with the Order primarily anti-Seeker (the faithful of the Blood of Vol) and penalizing those with necromantic powers in the affiliation score, while the Bone Knights mostly comprise extremely loyal soldiers selected for additional training, most likely at Fort Bone (a frontier outpost in the Talenta Plains) which is VERY heavily Seeker-aligned. Now of course there might be students of Rekkenmark Academy who would graduate with honours and be Seekers, join the Emerald Claw or become Bone Knights (or heck all three) but would the Order of Rekkenmark choose to extend membership (or after that, encourage promotion) to such a candidate?

The tension between Karrnath and the Blood of Vol is caused by the fact that Vol tricked King Kaius into becoming a vampire and attempted to control him. So Kaius tried to purge the Blood of Vol from his lands due to this direct assault on him and what amounts to his nation's sovereignty. Now, obviously, this isn't common knowledge -- Kaius wouldn't want it to be -- and so removing the Blood of Vol is a slow process, as it needs to be done without revealing that the Blood of Vol is being removed. So could a scenario arise where a Bone Knight is granted one of the highest honors in the land of Karrnath? Certainly. But the Order might face some pressure from above not to induct anyone TOO loyal to the Blood of Vol. At the same time, if a Bone Knight provided some immensely valuable service to Karrnath, it might be suspicious to refuse to honor him.

[Babale]

The Woeforged are mentioned in passing in The Forge of War (p.85).

Is there any more lore on them anywhere, and any stats? If not, any decent home-brewed stats?

I'm afraid that they aren't mentioned anywhere else. As for stats -- I'd probably grant them normal undead immunities, but they will only take half damage from positive energy and heal half health from negative energy.

[Sir_Chivalry]

There really are a large number of sources for these monasteries, though. Eberron has a much, much longer history than our own world -- while the current, human-dominated era seems to change at a similar pace to our own world (although even then, a 100-year war in the vain of the Last War is very long for the modern world, which in many ways Eberron is) the older eras lasted ridiculously long periods of time. The Dhakaani Empire lasted for 10,000 years, which is about how long humans in the real world have been sitting in one place instead of following animals to hunt. The Dhakaani also used a fighting style and weapons that would take very intense training to master -- spiked chains would require very complicated and precise forms to use effectively, without hurting yourself. Meanwhile, you've also got a whole lot of threats that have to be dealt with, and a lot of incentive to keep them secret. If you're fighting servants of a Lord of Dust, you don't want everyone and their grandma to find out about it, or you risk doing that Lord of Dust's recruitment for him. Same thing goes for people fighting the Daelkyr, or Quori, or any other extraplanar threat. So you end up with a lot of secret orders fighting secret wars against secret threats for thousands of years, and developing their own styles of combat to do it. It's not a realistic scenario by any means, but it sets up the pulp action world of Eberron very, very well, which is why you end up with so many monasteries or other secret fighting styles, like the Gatekeeper druids.

Also, and I'm not sure if this was intended or just a happy coincidence, but Tome of Battle has the Rakshasa as a source of these ancient martial arts, and in Eberron the Rakshasa live in Khyber and try to free the Lords of Dust, and end up setting up elaborate cults to do so. If we take the Tome of Battle Rakshasa and put them in Khyber (where they fit very well), it makes total sense that their devotees may use TOB techniques in combat; and it also makes sense that the ancient monk orders fighting them would use these techniques as well.

Having reviewed Baker's Dragonshard article on monasteries (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041213a) we can also see a large tradition of monks among the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, with Dol Dorn and the Mockery called out in text but likely other martial gods represented as well. The Fury, the Traveler and Dol Arrah likely have monks who are devoted to them (despite the Traveler's chaotic leanings, if Dol Dorn can do it then I guess it's open to opportunity). Also keep in mind the Argent Fists, groups of monk/paladins in Thrane, and likely similar less organized groups of warriors in the Demon Wastes among the Ghaash'kala (Silver Flame-like adherents who predate the Church of the Silver Flame)

[Zombimode]

Though "non-canon" as his current writings do not constitute official WotC material, I'd say that given the choice between ignoring Baker's non-canon writing and taking all of Eberron's sourcebooks as canon vs. taking the sourcebooks Baker wrote or had a hand in and his blog posts/dragonmarks/etc and eschewing (or taking with a grain of salt) the sourcebooks and materials not written by Baker, the latter option certainly provides a much saner world where nations and peoples have clear themes and complex motivations both. And where Thrane didn't turn away Cyran refugees after the Mourning because WHY WOULD THEY?

Hm, don't think this is a productive stance. I would consider all WoTC 3.5 publications for Eberron plus everything written by Baker himself als Canon. Yes there will be stuff that you won't like. And as a DM you are free to ignore it*.

But when talking about the lore of the Setting, all participants Need to have the same reference frame. Your second option doesn't provide that.

*Of Course you would have to convince your Players buying your altered Version of Eberron.

[Babale]

Having reviewed Baker's Dragonshard article on monasteries (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041213a) we can also see a large tradition of monks among the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, with Dol Dorn and the Mockery called out in text but likely other martial gods represented as well. The Fury, the Traveler and Dol Arrah likely have monks who are devoted to them (despite the Traveler's chaotic leanings, if Dol Dorn can do it then I guess it's open to opportunity). Also keep in mind the Argent Fists, groups of monk/paladins in Thrane, and likely similar less organized groups of warriors in the Demon Wastes among the Ghaash'kala (Silver Flame-like adherents who predate the Church of the Silver Flame)

Indeed, and I think that goes back to Eberron having a lot longer history than our world. The Dark Six monks follow traditions that probably originate in the Age of Monsters, for example. But yeah, when discussing monasteries we would do well to remember the religious orders.


Hm, don't think this is a productive stance. I would consider all WoTC 3.5 publications for Eberron plus everything written by Baker himself als Canon. Yes there will be stuff that you won't like. And as a DM you are free to ignore it*.

But when talking about the lore of the Setting, all participants Need to have the same reference frame. Your second option doesn't provide that.

*Of Course you would have to convince your Players buying your altered Version of Eberron.

I would agree, I do consider the published materials Canon even when Keith Baker disagrees with it, even when I agree with his disagreement, for exactly these reasons.

[Sir_Chivalry]

And what would your stance be then in terms of resolving conflicting information between say Forge of War (Thrane had poorly trained mostly peasant infantry, and lacked strong archers in the Last War) and the Eberron Campaign Setting (the Church of the Silver Flame encourages constant training among all adherents and favours the longbow, and in fact commoners often have Weapon Focus (longbow))

I understand you're hesitant to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I'd point out I said "eschew (or take with a grain of salt)", mostly in the intention of favouring Baker's work in situations where there's direct conflict. Because he knows his own setting better than whoever wrote Faiths of Eberron and Forge of War.

I did also say it was off topic and spoilered it so as not to derail the conversation.

But I'd say that you "alter" Eberron the moment you use any sourcebook after the Eberron Campaign Setting, be it Secrets of Sarlona (written by Baker) or Five Nations (not). My "Altered Eberron" isn't even the way Baker would run Eberron (I happen to like subraces, for instance) so I can't claim to know the one truth about Eberron and if I start doing that call me on it. In my spoilered text I was in no way saying I felt this discussion should be limited by my perceptions of "fanon"

I'd think for the purposes of these lore questions though, we should 100% stick with the ECS and all the WotC books are primary sources because that's the fairest position to work from, with Baker's writings on WotC's website being helpful additional sources and his blog . . . well I'll maybe bring it up occasionally but I do grant you it's non-canon due to Eberron being WotC's property to develop and release information on, and anything Baker says is helpful but non-canon. So far no answer I've given was sourced from the blog though.

Edit note: I edited my spoiler so it makes it clear I don't intend for my personal game opinions to affect this discussion, for those who come after and don't see the above discussion

[Falontani]

Hm, don't think this is a productive stance. I would consider all WoTC 3.5 publications for Eberron plus everything written by Baker himself als Canon. Yes there will be stuff that you won't like. And as a DM you are free to ignore it*.


Using everything that he has written is.... not the best idea. His novels reveal his own interpretation of the cause of the Day of Mourning as well as some interesting views on the Lord of Blades and Dal Quor. Along with a very interesting way to gain a dragonmark! I wont go into details because while the novels do not portray everyone's Eberron, it is one of the best portrayals of Eberron that I've come across, even if I disagree with a few of his choices. Fantastic series.

[Zombimode]

Using everything that he has written is.... not the best idea. His novels reveal his own interpretation of the cause of the Day of Mourning as well as some interesting views on the Lord of Blades and Dal Quor. Along with a very interesting way to gain a dragonmark! I wont go into details because while the novels do not portray everyone's Eberron, it is one of the best portrayals of Eberron that I've come across, even if I disagree with a few of his choices. Fantastic series.

Hm, good point about the novels. I wasn't thinking about them. But I think we can disregard novels as setting definition. As you've said they are setting implementation, filling the blanks that were consciously left open in the setting description.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Using everything that he has written is.... not the best idea. His novels reveal his own interpretation of the cause of the Day of Mourning as well as some interesting views on the Lord of Blades and Dal Quor. Along with a very interesting way to gain a dragonmark! I wont go into details because while the novels do not portray everyone's Eberron, it is one of the best portrayals of Eberron that I've come across, even if I disagree with a few of his choices. Fantastic series.

Agreed, we should likely draw the line at written fiction.

[Prime32]

Having reviewed Baker's Dragonshard article on monasteries (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041213a) we can also see a large tradition of monks among the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, with Dol Dorn and the Mockery called out in text but likely other martial gods represented as well. The Fury, the Traveler and Dol Arrah likely have monks who are devoted to them (despite the Traveler's chaotic leanings, if Dol Dorn can do it then I guess it's open to opportunity). Also keep in mind the Argent Fists, groups of monk/paladins in Thrane, and likely similar less organized groups of warriors in the Demon Wastes among the Ghaash'kala (Silver Flame-like adherents who predate the Church of the Silver Flame)I could have sworn that Tashalatora was a known term in Khorvaire, and that there are small dojos here and there that teach "Adar-influenced" fighting styles (which may or may not have any resemblance to actual Tashalatora). Is this ever actually mentioned as a thing?

[Sir_Chivalry]

I could have sworn that Tashalatora was a known term in Khorvaire, and that there are small dojos here and there that teach "Adar-influenced" fighting styles (which may or may not have any resemblance to actual Tashalatora). Is this ever actually mentioned as a thing?

It is, and I don't know for sure, but I believe it is a known style which is taught in a specific locale in Adar in Sarlona. People travel from Khorvaire to Sarlona to learn the style, if I'm recalling correctly, but the style is well-known in Khorvaire.

[Falontani]

I hope this isn't so old as to be a necro; but I have a question! What notable holidays are there in eberron? I am trying to come up with a calendar for "Galifar" (just a majority of Khorvaire) but I can't even find an exact date that the Day of Mourning occured. Let alone any holidays.

[InterstellarPro]

I hope this isn't so old as to be a necro; but I have a question! What notable holidays are there in eberron? I am trying to come up with a calendar for "Galifar" (just a majority of Khorvaire) but I can't even find an exact date that the Day of Mourning occured. Let alone any holidays.

For a start, check Sharn, the City of Towers book. It has local holidays listed. Some of those will obviously only be useful to a Sharn campaign, but some of them are actual holidays that would be celebrated outside the city.

Beyond those, I am not sure.

[Omnificer]

I hope this isn't so old as to be a necro; but I have a question! What notable holidays are there in eberron? I am trying to come up with a calendar for "Galifar" (just a majority of Khorvaire) but I can't even find an exact date that the Day of Mourning occured. Let alone any holidays.

Faiths of Eberron lists quite a few holidays, although the Silver Flame gets the most. The Day of Mourning is 20 Olarune and Treaty of Thronehold 11 Aryth.

I was able to find a list someone else made, so here is the link and list copied below: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/53105/are-there-holidays-in-eberron

Sovereign Host

The traditional calendar (described in this chapter) apparently had 16-day “weeks,” with each day devoted to a particular member of the Sovereign Host or Dark Six, plus one day for the pantheon as a whole. In modern times, the days associated with the Dark Six are instead associated with one of the Five Nations and then the Kingdom of Galifar as a whole.

In addition:

15 Therendor – Sun’s Blessing. Festival to Dol Arrah, a day of peace when enemies set aside differences

26 Dravago – Aureon’s Crown. Celebration of knowledge, has also become the traditional date for graduation and commencement ceremonies even among secular institutions.

12 Nymm – Brightblade. Dol Dorn’s day, with gladiatorial and athletic contests.

4 Barrakas – The Hunt. Celebration of Balinor; the festivities are exactly what it says on the tin.

9 Rhaan – Boldrei’s Feast. Traditional day for elections (which seems weird considering that Galifar was traditionally a monarchy). Tends to have extravagant parties.

Dark Six

The seven-day week of the Galifar calendar has, in areas with particularly strong Dark Six worship, each day associated with one of the six, and the last associated with the Six as a whole. Dark Six worshipers also recognize six seasons, not the usual four, one for each of the Six. Also, weirdly few specific holidays:

18-19 Sypheros – Wildnight. To the Fury, a night of passion celebrated even by those who do not worship the Dark Six.

26-28 Vult – Long Shadows. Three days devoted to the Shadow and dark magic.

Church of the Silver Flame

The first day of the week is the Day of Cleansing Fire, a weekly holy day where a single meal is replaced by a period of prayer. Obvious real-world parallels are obvious. Aside from that, they have thirteen holidays:

14 Zarantyr – Rebirth Eve. The winter solstice and when the Church celebrates a new year. Entails staying vigil through the longest night of the year, and then resting or celebrating the fact that days will be getting longer and nights shorter from then on.

18 Olarune – Bright Souls’ Day. Celebration of martyrs; families of martyrs re-enact the funeral rites, everyone else sing general paeans, and no one uses artificial or magical light, accepting night as the martyrs accepted death.

5 Therendor – Tirasday. Tira Miron’s birthday, and the start of the planting season.

11 Eyre – Initiation Day. Anniversary of the Church declaring itself a new religion and work beginning on the first cathedral. Beginning new churches or cathedrals is usually scheduled for this day, as is graduation from seminaries.

6 Dravago – Baker’s Night. An awesome festival where all faithful bakers and confectioners make magnificent pastries and similar treats, given out to the rest of the community. No one has any idea what this is to celebrate or where the tradition came from, even though it is certainly from the earliest days of the church.

28 Dravago – Promisetide. Wherein the Church honors the Sovereign Host for creating the world that the Flame would later complete, and for stepping down to allow the Flame its rightful place. The existence of this holiday does not do the church any favors among followers of the Sovereign Host.

21 Nymm – First Dawn. Anniversary of the church’s assumption of Thrane’s government, wherein secular officials are prayed for.

14 Lharvion – Silvertide. Holiest day of the year, commemorating the couatl’s sacrifice that banished the fiends, ended the Age of Demons, and brought the Silver Flame into Eberron. The devout spend the entire day in church.

9 Barrakas – Victory Day. Commemoration of the successful conclusion of the Great Purge. Children celebrate with mock battles and toy weapons, but adults do attend sermons which are supposed to cover, at the least, the defeats and questionable methods of the templars as well as their triumphs.

1 Sypheros – The Ascension. Another day dedicated to Tira Miron, thanking her for taking on her position and seeking ways that they can help their communities.

25 Sypheros – St. Valtros’s Day. Anniversary of the birth of the first paladin devoted to the Silver Flame (as opposed to paladins of other faiths who converted). He gets a mention during church services but it isn’t really a major holiday beyond that.

24 Aryth – Rampartide. Kind of like the opposite of Rebirth Eve, a day of fasting and repentance, steeling the faithful against the shortening of days, lengthening of nights, and the winter that is to come.

27 Vult – Khybersef. Literally the church’s reaction to the Dark Six holiday of Long Shadows, when the faithful spend the night in intense prayer as vigil against the Shadow. Quests and crusades often begin on Khybersef.

I have no idea why Faiths of Eberron devoted massively more page space to the Silver Flame’s holidays than any other faith.
Blood of Vol

The Blood of Vol is a weird, weird faith. Not just because of their particular beliefs, nor because of the secret conspiracy behind the faith, but also just in how they handle holidays.

(no set date) – The Sacrament of Blood. This is just a thing that happens at irregular intervals, dictated by the Crimson Covenant and the timing of which tends to mystify even the leadership of local cults. Every member of the congregation cuts him- or herself with a ritual dagger known as a bloodfang, and adds a drop of his or her blood to a chalice. This blood is secretly stored and transported around Khorvaire for the various necromancy projects of the Blood as an organization.

13 Crya – Revelation Day. Crya is the “lost” 13th month, which of course ties back into the lost 13th dragonmark, Vol’s own Mark of Death. Doesn’t exist on the modern calendar, the date is based on the older elven calendar that had thirteen months. Basically, the Sacrament of Blood in reverse: each congregant drinks from a filled chalice of blood. The blood has been magically made safe to drink, and also altered with various psychotropic substances so that everyone enters into a hallucinogenic “blood trip.”

Druidic Sects

The sects vary a lot, but Faiths of Eberron does state that they celebrate the solstices and equinoxes. During the autumn feast, a special ceremony of thanks to Oalian takes place, which makes it the most important of the four. Involves a mildly alcoholic drink made with pinches of soil from each druid’s home area, and poured out some distance from Oalian so the greatpine’s roots can drink it.

[Dragolord]

6 Dravago – Baker’s Night. An awesome festival where all faithful bakers and confectioners make magnificent pastries and similar treats, given out to the rest of the community. No one has any idea what this is to celebrate or where the tradition came from, even though it is certainly from the earliest days of the church.

Note that this is, sadly, a dying tradition, to fit into the standard 12+1 pattern.

[Afgncaap5]

Note that this is, sadly, a dying tradition, to fit into the standard 12+1 pattern.

I'm sad to admit that the stealth pun involved in all this had to be pointed out to me by a thing I was reading rather than me just putting two and two together.

[Cosi]

Why the hell does anyone care about the dragonmarked houses?

I understand that now they have a bunch of power and influence, and are consequentially important, but how did that happen? Dragonmarks are not good. The first tier of the Mark of Detection gives your choice of cantrip twice per day. A 1st level Wizard gets three cantrips per day, they can be whatever he wants, and he didn't have to spend a feat for the privilege. And you can just train Wizards. You have to breed new people with the Mark of Detection. How did people whose superpower is "twice per day I can do a parlor trick" manage to become the go-to name in detective work in a world where speak with dead is a thing you can just train people to cast?

Why are the Dragonmarked Houses economic powers in a world where there are wizard schools where you can learn to be a Wizard, who can match (almost) any of them trick for trick with less than half her spell slots?

[Afgncaap5]

Why the hell does anyone care about the dragonmarked houses?

I understand that now they have a bunch of power and influence, and are consequentially important, but how did that happen? Dragonmarks are not good. The first tier of the Mark of Detection gives your choice of cantrip twice per day. A 1st level Wizard gets three cantrips per day, they can be whatever he wants, and he didn't have to spend a feat for the privilege. And you can just train Wizards. You have to breed new people with the Mark of Detection. How did people whose superpower is "twice per day I can do a parlor trick" manage to become the go-to name in detective work in a world where speak with dead is a thing you can just train people to cast?

Why are the Dragonmarked Houses economic powers in a world where there are wizard schools where you can learn to be a Wizard, who can match (almost) any of them trick for trick with less than half her spell slots?

I think there's a lore to mechanics disparity at work here; I've heard it said (I'm gonna say by Keith Baker) that the daily spell or spells given by dragonmarks are the *least* important thing that a dragonmark should give players. DMs are expected to play along with this to a degree, but there's meant to be a lot of exclusive magic in the world that requires Dragonmarks to put into place.

Ignoring the obvious things like airships that only work with a House Lyrandar pilot or telegraphs that only work with a House Sivis operator taking the messages, you also get weird and powerful magical effects that the houses just... make. Like, house Lyrandar might be best known as ship captains (on both sea and sky) but their Raincallers Guild doesn't just let them control the weather to make ideal farming conditions for their clients, it's also allowed them to create a fantasy-land on an island of perfect weather just off the coast of Aundaire. And consider House Cannith: they put together some weird secrets from the Giants, a touch of alchemy from the gnomes, and some notes on the research of one of their leaders, and they turned it into the Warforged. The single most recognizable Eberron-exclusive race owes its existence to House Cannith and its Mark of Making.

Also consider the weirder and subtler things: the introductory adventure that comes with the ECS book takes you down to a hidden laboratory of Cannith's, one with a magical door that can only be opened by either a player who has the Mark Of Making, or by the collected PCs holding up a journal that has the Mark of Making recreated on its cover.

Now, to be fair: this asks a lot for the DMs. Dungeon Masters need to fill the world with things like this. If I want my villain to have a weather machine in her zeppelin that she's using to flood the Shadow Marches, then it better have some cool functionality that allows a player with the Mark of Storms to interact with it in a weird way. If the Lord of Blades raises an ancient giant-craft ur-warforged behemoth from the sea and uses it to march on Sharn, you'd better believe that the Cannith player with the dragonmark is gonna feel magically guided to something crucial about the monster's engine that can stall it for a few minutes while the rest of the players try to reach the control room. And when the Orcish Warlock tries to escape after the players and he crash-landed in the middle of The Labyrinth, the player with the Mark of Passage should be able to use some tool, or just the inherent magic within themselves, to either track down the warlock or find a faster route that lets the party get ahead of them (even if the only bonus that the DM grants is the +2 bonus to Survival checks that the mark grants).

And a lot of this is assuming that all magic for a class is the same between all members of the class, but some don't play that way. A lot of players do play wizards or sorcerers who have dragonmarks from their houses, but the mark itself is the source of their magic. I'm not sure what it is about the Mark of Detection that allows that half-elf wizard to cast Charm Person, but the prophecy is a strange and mysterious thing with much untapped potential.

[White Blade]

Why the hell does anyone care about the dragonmarked houses?

I understand that now they have a bunch of power and influence, and are consequentially important, but how did that happen? Dragonmarks are not good. The first tier of the Mark of Detection gives your choice of cantrip twice per day. A 1st level Wizard gets three cantrips per day, they can be whatever he wants, and he didn't have to spend a feat for the privilege. And you can just train Wizards. You have to breed new people with the Mark of Detection. How did people whose superpower is "twice per day I can do a parlor trick" manage to become the go-to name in detective work in a world where speak with dead is a thing you can just train people to cast?

Why are the Dragonmarked Houses economic powers in a world where there are wizard schools where you can learn to be a Wizard, who can match (almost) any of them trick for trick with less than half her spell slots?
Dragonmarked items that only work for house heirs are easier to design (and probably cheaper, given the lack of other uses for Siberys dragonshards), dragonmarked items offer spells above the wide magic mark (House Jorasco's Altar of Resurrection springs to mind), dragon marked heirs are more talented at relevant non-magical applications, dragonmarked houses established their monopolies substantially earlier than present magical techniques developed in Khorvaire/Aerenal, dragonmarked houses recruit competition, dragonmarked houses spend much more on training, and (vitally!) gaining levels in a player class is not something anyone can do.

As to speak with dead (putting aside that both Medani and Thrashk probably make more money on white collar crimes than murder), it requires an intact head. A murder of passion by an amateur might be solvable that way, but anyone with a plan wears a mask. A hitman from a gang is going to shatter the jaw. An assassin from Thurani is going to break the jaw and disintegrate the body. An assassin from House Tarkanan is going to do all that, but he killed you with a Keeper's Fang and your soul is NEVER coming back from that.

[Cosi]

I think there's a lore to mechanics disparity at work here

That seems like a huge design flaw. If your setting is built on having giant magical guilds that control huge swaths of commerce, priority number one should be making sure the mechanics back that up (well, maybe given the weakness of 3e's economics rules priority one should be producing an economy that has commerce to control, but still).


Ignoring the obvious things like airships that only work with a House Lyrandar pilot or telegraphs that only work with a House Sivis operator taking the messages

Are those somehow better than just using the rules in the DMG to make items that only work for Wizards with ranks in Perform (Throat Singing) or whatever other gen-ed your Wizard's guild requires? I get that there is fluff that says they are in charge. I just don't see any mechanical backing for any of it. It seems like Wizards' ability to tell their magical knowledge to other Wizards is a much bigger advantage than the things Dragonmarked Houses have going for them, and the Wizard guilds of the world should be correspondingly more powerful than the Dragonmarked Houses.


And consider House Cannith: they put together some weird secrets from the Giants, a touch of alchemy from the gnomes, and some notes on the research of one of their leaders, and they turned it into the Warforged.

You can get most of the way to Warforged (and probably better for the stated purpose of "mobile weapons") with animate objects + permanency. If you can get someone with awaken construct (which, admittedly, is a 9th level spell), you can just make your own Warforged except they are the size of houses and can fly.


Also consider the weirder and subtler things: the introductory adventure that comes with the ECS book takes you down to a hidden laboratory of Cannith's, one with a magical door that can only be opened by either a player who has the Mark Of Making, or by the collected PCs holding up a journal that has the Mark of Making recreated on its cover.

So they invented a magical key? Again, I just don't see what is inherently Dragonmarked about that. Yes, if you have to pony up the Mark of Making to continue the adventure, obviously being able to do that is important. But why does it have to be the Mark of Making and not the sigil of the Order of the Ebon Hand or the mark of Fangs of the Judging God or the insignia of Thule Society or whatever symbol of other (secret) organization you want to have be important? What is giving the Dragonmarked Houses a mechanical head start on any other semi-organized group of magical folks? Their plan of "breed new people who might get minor magic" seems way worse than the plans that various Necromancers (Spell-Stitch Undead that are guaranteed to get magic), Summoners (summon up angels that are already magic), or Wizard Guilds (train people who have already been born) have for producing more magic to win the economy with.


Now, to be fair: this asks a lot for the DMs. Dungeon Masters need to fill the world with things like this. If I want my villain to have a weather machine in her zeppelin that she's using to flood the Shadow Marches, then it better have some cool functionality that allows a player with the Mark of Storms to interact with it in a weird way. If the Lord of Blades raises an ancient giant-craft ur-warforged behemoth from the sea and uses it to march on Sharn, you'd better believe that the Cannith player with the dragonmark is gonna feel magically guided to something crucial about the monster's engine that can stall it for a few minutes while the rest of the players try to reach the control room. And when the Orcish Warlock tries to escape after the players and he crash-landed in the middle of The Labyrinth, the player with the Mark of Passage should be able to use some tool, or just the inherent magic within themselves, to either track down the warlock or find a faster route that lets the party get ahead of them (even if the only bonus that the DM grants is the +2 bonus to Survival checks that the mark grants).

Okay, but again, "you get totally arbitrary magical powers because the DM wants to give you something to do because of the special character option you took" is not really a stable system for setting up an economic dynasty. Why is the world not dominated by Sorcerers whose Dragon Heritage Feats give them totally arbitrary visions of extra magical powers because dragons? This seems like basically circular logic "the setting says that Dragonmarked people are important, therefore you should do things to make Dragonmarked people important". The mechanics of the setting should promote the desired setting, not leave a giant hole for the DM to fill in after the fact.

I mean, look at the damn Artificer! The same book that asks us to believe the Dragonmarked Houses dominate commerce produces an entire character class dedicated to commerce magic with no inherent association with them! The hell is that about?


And a lot of this is assuming that all magic for a class is the same between all members of the class, but some don't play that way. A lot of players do play wizards or sorcerers who have dragonmarks from their houses, but the mark itself is the source of their magic. I'm not sure what it is about the Mark of Detection that allows that half-elf wizard to cast Charm Person, but the prophecy is a strange and mysterious thing with much untapped potential.

Sure, that is a workable paradigm. If Dragonmarks gave Sorcerers a pile of extra spells, and the Dragonmarked Houses produced Sorcerers at way above the base rate, we might have something to work with. Is there anything like that in the flavor or mechanics of the setting?


Dragonmarked items that only work for house heirs are easier to design (and probably cheaper, given the lack of other uses for Siberys dragonshards)

I guess. But the dragonmarks still kind of blow. Look at the metamagic rods versus the dragonmark rods. The dragonmark ones cost half price. But they're locked into the half-a-dozen (give or take) dragonmark powers you personally have, and those often don't really benefit from them. Extended dimension door is not really a winner.


As to speak with dead

The point was less speak with dead specifically and more that you can just train people to do magic that seems way more impressive than least (or even lesser) dragonmarks. And they also get all the other magic they would normally get for being a Beguiler or a Cleric. Mentor/Apprentice allowing you to train 5th level characters kind of spanks the pants off of the Dragonmarked House's plan of breeding people who maybe have magical powers (particularly for the long-lived races who have to sit around waiting the better part of a century for new heirs to pop out).

[Sir_Chivalry]

Something you might have missed in the general thing that Eberron has that's different from other settings:

PC classes are rare. The wizard college is producing magewrights and VERY low level wizards. The church uses warriors and adepts, the Citadel is mostly staffed with stealth/gather information based experts, etc.

What the dragonmarks mostly provide is a reliable way to get recurring magical effects. There aren't large magic marts turning out custom magic items, there's Cannith and other houses producing those items which are keyed to their dragonmarks.

Speak with Dead, for instance (and yes I understand it was only an example, so I'll use it as such too) is a 3rd level spell available only to either Clerics or those with the Repose or Retribution domains as far as I see. Adepts in Eberron get one domain, but as far as I know no Eberron gods provide those domains. Let's however assume the most likely ones, Undying Court for Repose and Fury for Retribution. Neither are helping with investigations like Tharashk and Medani, especially as the necessary level of Adept would be 8th compared to like a 3rd level . Neither would most 5th level clerics be strolling around solving murders

Also your approximation of what's necessary to create a warforged only works if you assume a warforged is just a construct and not say a metal/wood shell containing a quori-spirit

[Afgncaap5]

In addition to the relative scarcity of 5th level and higher NPCs, it's worth pointing out that dragonshard items often do have unique or specialized effects for their dragonmark wielder. Sure, a DM can introduce a Tesla or Leonardo or Einstein or other genius-level magical inventor to the setting for creating things that replicate the effects of sunstone items, and in fact doing so sometimes comes up as an adventure in and of itself. However, while my wizard might be able to just use Craft Wondrous Item to create a knock-off speaking stone, my version of Whispering Wind will still be limited to 1 mile per caster level, and will still only be able to move at a rate of one mile per ten minutes. I may also be able to create a forge that replicates the Fabricate spell, but the Cannith Sky Forge will be creating ten times as much as I can. I'd have to create ten knock-off forges to keep up. I'm guessing I've probably put a cap on the daily uses of them to cut down on costs, but once I've finished and the House Cannith fellow finishes, I'm done for the day and they can just hand the reigns over to the next House member to use it again. If I've instead made the item something that just boosts my own ability to use Fabricate (not sure how to price that, honestly, but I can see myself missing that in a book somewhere), then I'm guessing I use it while casting Fabricate, so my limit becomes the limit of Spell Slots, which might start to keep up with Cannith's house members in a given locale, but it's going to be tricky keeping up with demand on a scale to actually compete with their business in more than a city or two. I'd have to find other ninth level wizards (not super easy in Eberron) and convince them to join my building company which... well, maybe that'd appeal to them? We'd still be fighting an uphill battle, though, against non-magical folks who just have weird prophetic birthmarks.

I think one of the easiest items to compare would be the Scrystone. At its heart, the Scrystone is a Mark of Shadowi-exclusive Crystal Ball, with an ability that most closely resembles the Telepathy Crystal Ball. However, instead of being able to use it to send a Suggestion once a day at a low-ish DC, it instead boosts the communication by being able to send and receive telepathic images as well words. Standard Telepathy-focued Crystal Balls run for 70,000 gold, but one with the class restrictions and skill restrictions could get as cheap as... 42,000? I'm not sure how the stacking of the percentages should work. Either way, the Scrystone's market price is 25,000 gold, which is a far scale cheaper. Now, the key difference is that the Crystal Ball works without having to cast the spell, while the Scrystone is using it as a focus for the dragonmark ability, so it's comparable to having to spend a spell slot in some ways; ultimately, it's just a question of if that difference is worth paying not-quite-double or not-quite-triple for it to be at-will, and if I'm just making it for myself or if I'm going to the trouble of making it to be a competitor. If the latter, I'm still just one wizard with an at-will scrying ability, something that the folks at Arcanix would likely consider to be a curiosity though probably not a huge economic splash in the cutthroat market of espionage. I mean, how do I even advertise this service?

But ultimately: yes, a single individual who's beyond the standard limits of the world will, in fact, be able to compete on a personal level. I just don't know that I'll have many other colleagues who can also do the work required to actually bring down their economic monopolies.

[White Blade]

So they invented a magical key? Again, I just don't see what is inherently Dragonmarked about that. Yes, if you have to pony up the Mark of Making to continue the adventure, obviously being able to do that is important. But why does it have to be the Mark of Making and not the sigil of the Order of the Ebon Hand or the mark of Fangs of the Judging God or the insignia of Thule Society or whatever symbol of other (secret) organization you want to have be important? What is giving the Dragonmarked Houses a mechanical head start on any other semi-organized group of magical folks? Their plan of "breed new people who might get minor magic" seems way worse than the plans that various Necromancers (Spell-Stitch Undead that are guaranteed to get magic), Summoners (summon up angels that are already magic), or Wizard Guilds (train people who have already been born) have for producing more magic to win the economy with. Because in setting the innovation barrier for tapping a dragonmark is far easier than tapping Perform (Singing) or similar.


I mean, look at the damn Artificer! The same book that asks us to believe the Dragonmarked Houses dominate commerce produces an entire character class dedicated to commerce magic with no inherent association with them! The hell is that about? It also gives us militaries and the fighter class totally disassociated with them! This is like complaining that there are programmers that don't work for Google or Apple. The Dragonmarked Houses have a whole magical college entirely to themselves.


Sure, that is a workable paradigm. If Dragonmarks gave Sorcerers a pile of extra spells, and the Dragonmarked Houses produced Sorcerers at way above the base rate, we might have something to work with. Is there anything like that in the flavor or mechanics of the setting? There is in the flavor, I think. It has been cited frequently. Springing to mind is the mention in the ECS of sorcerers attributing their power to


I guess. But the dragonmarks still kind of blow. Look at the metamagic rods versus the dragonmark rods. The dragonmark ones cost half price. But they're locked into the half-a-dozen (give or take) dragonmark powers you personally have, and those often don't really benefit from them. Extended dimension door is not really a winner. There are obviously the printed magic items that are for adventurers, but there are also magic items that are utility. Keith Baker has mentioned, for example, a prestidigitation-based blender that requires the Mark of Hospitality and a theater-sized crystal ball that requires the Mark of Shadows to use (allowing a sort of "movie theater" through scrying on another performance in another city). And why is it like that? Dragonmarked items are easier to design and funded by super-massive conglomerations.


The point was less speak with dead specifically and more that you can just train people to do magic that seems way more impressive than least (or even lesser) dragonmarks. And they also get all the other magic they would normally get for being a Beguiler or a Cleric. Mentor/Apprentice allowing you to train 5th level characters kind of spanks the pants off of the Dragonmarked House's plan of breeding people who maybe have magical powers (particularly for the long-lived races who have to sit around waiting the better part of a century for new heirs to pop out).
You need to be a city before you start averaging a level five wizard. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a)And that gets you ONE level 5-7 wizard and one artificer of similar level. It gets you an enclave of every dragonmarked house, where your level 5-7 wizard may well work or be a member. It provides a Altar of Resurrection, a chance at finding a Siberys marked heir for greater teleport, a marshal from Deneith. I severely doubt that the majority (or even a substantial minority) of NPCs are invested in Mentor/Apprentice as a feat, and given the layout of the world I would say that it is a very rare feat. A prodigy teacher, like the players or their enemies/rivals, might have it. But it's rare as heck.

[InterstellarPro]

There is a lot to process. I am not going to multi-quote, but rather respond to the thread as a whole. This response is on the effectiveness of the Dragonmarked Houses, and how they are able to succeed when dragonmarks in general are so meh.

The topic went on to discuss magic items keyed specifically to dragonmarks. There exists a mechanic already that works fairly well. From the SRD on the section about item creation:

Other Considerations

Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Skill to Use

Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use

Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%.

So, this mechanic is already factored into magic item creation in 3e. It is possible to create items that do not require a dragonmark, but they would be far more expensive. Members of each class would be uncommon, for sure, but they do exist in the setting, and given the population of the entire world, there are probably a lot of each class setting-wide (for example, in the US, a million people is statistically a small number... how crazy is that? Think of a weird quality that not many people have. Something that maybe 1% of the population possesses. 1% of the US population is almost 3 million people!!!)

Now, compare that to dragonmarked members. They make it apparent that there are only a few hundred possessing a least dragonmark in each family, maybe a few dozen possessing lesser dragonmarks in each family, a handful possessing greater dragonmarks in each family, and perhaps one possessing a Sibarys mark for each family. That is far more restrictive than restricting to class or alignment.

So, would you rather hire the right person for the job for a fraction of the cost? Or would you rather spend exorbitant amounts of money so that you can do it without the specialty provided by a dragonmark? Financially speaking, it just makes sense to create the magic item that will only function for the dragonmarked member, but it will do so at a fraction of the cost. It should be theoretically possible to create an airship that does not require a d'Lyrandar captain, but what sort of design changes would that entail? They would need to research it. While they have a template (the ship that does require a d'Lyrandar captain), they would need to research how to create a non-restrictive version. Perhaps this is easier, perhaps not. But, it would take research. How much does the airship cost already? Now you want a more expensive version that you need to research first? Perhaps the Aurum is working towards such a goal. If they can produce magic items that are usable by anyone, not just the dragonmarked houses, that would be a tremendous boost to their power! But, how much would they have to invest before they saw any fruits of their efforts?

Anyway, that's my two cents. The dragonmarked benefit makes a lot of sense to me. I use it in my campaigns all the time.

[Falontani]

PC classes are rare. I want you to take a look at the most powerful and influential people in the Eberron Campaign Setting. Most of them have a few levels in an NPC class before they can even start to take PC class levels. They have one of the most powerful "artificers" in the world classed as a high level magewright. It doesn't even have to be that everyone in the setting is relatively low level, they are usually NPC classes, and a PC class will beat them left right and center.

[Prime32]

If Dragonmarks gave Sorcerers a pile of extra spells, and the Dragonmarked Houses produced Sorcerers at way above the base rate, we might have something to work with. Is there anything like that in the flavor or mechanics of the setting?Dragon #351 has the feat Dragonmarked Sorcerer, which gives you a (scaling) dragonmark that grants its spells as extra sorcerer spells known instead of as SLAs. Fluff-wise the rest of their spells are usually at least tangentially related to their mark as well.

[Cosi]

PC classes are rare. The wizard college is producing magewrights and VERY low level wizards. The church uses warriors and adepts, the Citadel is mostly staffed with stealth/gather information based experts, etc.

But even NPC classes are better than dragonmarks! The Least Mark of Healing gets you cure light wounds 1/day. So does being a 1st level Adept. Yes, you could have gotten lesser restoration instead (unlike the Adept). But the Adept gets some 0th level spells, on the order of a dozen other options, potentially a bonus spell, and (because this is Eberron) a Domain.


There aren't large magic marts turning out custom magic items, there's Cannith and other houses producing those items which are keyed to their dragonmarks.

But why? They are not mechanically superior, and making things that make your mark better is not a particularly awesome business plan, because the only people you can possibly sell to work for you (or are renegades you want to wipe out).


Also your approximation of what's necessary to create a warforged only works if you assume a warforged is just a construct and not say a metal/wood shell containing a quori-spirit

The important part of the Warforged is that they are constructs you can buy to use as soldiers, not the specific magi-technobabble that makes them go.


It also gives us militaries and the fighter class totally disassociated with them! This is like complaining that there are programmers that don't work for Google or Apple.

Well, no, it's having a setting that says "Google is best at search" and having a free search engine that is explicitly not Google-affiliated and works better than Google's.


Keith Baker has mentioned, for example, a prestidigitation-based blender that requires the Mark of Hospitality and a theater-sized crystal ball that requires the Mark of Shadows to use (allowing a sort of "movie theater" through scrying on another performance in another city).

Are there actual rules for that? Because if the economic power of the Dragonmarked houses is supposed to be a focus of the campaign setting, it should flow from things you can mechanically define.


It provides a Altar of Resurrection, a chance at finding a Siberys marked heir for greater teleport, a marshal from Deneith.

You mean an item that requires 13th level character to make (the Altar of Resurrection requires resurrection, a 7th level spell, to craft), a 13th level character (the minimum to have levels in Hier of Siberys), and (presumably) another 10th+ NPC? It sounds like the reason no one competes with Dragonmarks is because everyone over 6th level is fiated to have a Dragonmark, which is workable, but kind of dumb, and not really obvious from the setting materials.


Dragon #351 has the feat Dragonmarked Sorcerer, which gives you a (scaling) dragonmark that grants its spells as extra sorcerer spells known instead of as SLAs. Fluff-wise the rest of their spells are usually at least tangentially related to their mark as well.

See, that's the kind of thing that should be front and center. Stuff like that provides a meaningful basis for the nominal dominance of the houses.

[Afgncaap5]

The important part of the Warforged is that they are constructs you can buy to use as soldiers, not the specific magi-technobabble that makes them go.

As a sidenote, this is hilarious to me because of the number of adventures I've seen DMs make that have the villains who fundamentally believe this and use it as the reason for their villainy. Having said that:

I think this may be telling of a particular issue; Eberron makes a distinction between different kinds of magic even when the mechanical effects are identical. The necromancy of The Blood Of Vol and The Emerald Claw is different from what a Brelish Court Magician can figure out even with the same set of spells. The default elemental galleon is a product of uncaring industry, but you mechanically get the same ship if you use the different "Power of Purity" elemental binding method which barters with elementals instead of just ruthlessly entrapping them (even though the lore tells us that the Power of Purity methods appears to be giving superior results, even if those superior results don't have a mechanical impact.)

If what matters to you is the raw mechanical output of magical effects, then I can see a big amount of Eberron's lore actually feeling hollow to you. The setting is more about giving DMs jumping off points to create their own mechanical effects to match lore than a lot of other settings are. (Which is part of why I use SoP in my Eberron games to give a lot of different magical traditions, including ones based on Dragonmarks (with a Boon that gives notable boosts to CL if the person takes the feat in addition to just "having" a mark that gives magic.))



See, that's the kind of thing that should be front and center. Stuff like that provides a meaningful basis for the nominal dominance of the houses.

I do agree, in part; having said that, there's a lot of material that, while conceptually sound, is something that we wouldn't have room for in the sourcebooks (I mean, as much as I like that variant of the sorcerer, it's also something that I can do as a roleplaying choice instead of taking mechanically, and I'd rather keep things like the Keycharm, minor as it is, than just get something I'm going to homebrew anyway.) Again, though, this is probably a fundamental difference in what people look for in games, and I do get wanting more definitive mechanical presence.

[The Viscount]

But even NPC classes are better than dragonmarks! The Least Mark of Healing gets you cure light wounds 1/day. So does being a 1st level Adept. Yes, you could have gotten lesser restoration instead (unlike the Adept). But the Adept gets some 0th level spells, on the order of a dozen other options, potentially a bonus spell, and (because this is Eberron) a Domain.

Character classes are an out of universe representation for what characters are and do within the universe. People don't all roll wizard because that isn't a way in which the universe works. As explained, most people are very low level and just go about their lives. Within Eberron, a character doesn't undertake any effort to have a dragonmark, they are simply born in the right house and then manifest it. Learning to cast magic requires training of some sort. The dragonmarks are also a symbol of nobility, as much a visualization of their elite status as they are means of inherent magic.

If you don't like that answer, consider that the dragonmarked houses may have goals that are different from "be filled with wizards." They have to actually navigate in a complex world of laws and politics, and casting spells can only solve so many problems, and often makes it clear who has done what. If you're discussing magical power as an economic commodity, then like other commodities it follows the rule that rarity adds value. The ruling houses controlling the world through their specific magics ensure that they remain in positions of prominence (Also remember that a lot of their services simply don't require magic. House Ghallanda runs the hospitality industry, and they have plenty of normal chefs and permanent buildings even though their marks duplicate the effect.) whereas propagating class-derived magic puts the power in the hands of casters and caster colleges.

On a separate note, are the major fiends (Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine) ever discussed or specifically said to not exist in Eberron?

[White Blade]

On a separate note, are the major fiends (Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine) ever discussed or specifically said to not exist in Eberron?

There's the Baator supplement in Eye on Eberron, which Keith Baler wrote, and reports on the Lords of the Nine as a freshly organized breakout triggered by the mourning.

That said, Keith Baker dislikes this addition to canon and the answer is beyond that, I think there are implications that Levistus is locked in the Frostfell. Generally, the system prefers to redefine the Demon Princes as demons from Khyber. There's no material on the organization of any of three factions in Shavrath and none of them have the soul collecting ambitions of the canon Demon Princes/Lords of the Nine.

[The Viscount]

Very informative. Thank you kindly.

[Dragolord]

There's the Baator supplement in Eye on Eberron, which Keith Baler wrote, and reports on the Lords of the Nine as a freshly organized breakout triggered by the mourning.

That said, Keith Baker dislikes this addition to canon and the answer is beyond that, I think there are implications that Levistus is locked in the Frostfell. Generally, the system prefers to redefine the Demon Princes as demons from Khyber. There's no material on the organization of any of three factions in Shavrath and none of them have the soul collecting ambitions of the canon Demon Princes/Lords of the Nine.

I seem to recall references to Demogorgon being active during the Age of Fiends, as a very potent being, who was nevertheless nothing compared to the Overlords.

[Omnificer]

I seem to recall references to Demogorgon being active during the Age of Fiends, as a very potent being, who was nevertheless nothing compared to the Overlords.

That Demogorgon description is in an Eberron conversion of the Savage Tide module written by Keith Baker and it's pretty much exactly what you said.

Here's a link to the pdf for reference:
https://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTideConversion4.pdf

[Cosi]

I think this may be telling of a particular issue; Eberron makes a distinction between different kinds of magic even when the mechanical effects are identical.

Isn't that the exact definition of a distinction without a difference? It is a game, where things are defined mechanically. As far as the PCs can reasonably be concerned, if things have the same effect, they are the same.

Honestly, the vibe I'm getting here is that Eberron has thrown down a premise that is pretty wildly divergent from the baseline mechanics of 3.5 and expects you to go in and backfill the answers to things like "why do Dragonmarked Houses dominate the economy" or "what is the different between the Blood of Vol and state-sanctioned Karrnathi necromancers". Frankly, I just don't see that as acceptable in a product for which I am asked to spend actual money.


As explained, most people are very low level and just go about their lives.

Again, sure. But even very low level casters are better at doing magic than people with Dragonmarks. Also, the idea that less people are going to be Wizards than are going to happen to be the right race and happen to take the right feat is absurd.


If you're discussing magical power as an economic commodity, then like other commodities it follows the rule that rarity adds value.

That's not really true. I mean, it's partially true, but pretty misleading. Rarity doesn't add value, scarcity does. If your thing is very rare, but people don't care about it it all, it isn't worth very much. Conversely, even if what you do is relatively common, it's valuable as long as people want more if it than you can produce.


(Also remember that a lot of their services simply don't require magic. House Ghallanda runs the hospitality industry, and they have plenty of normal chefs and permanent buildings even though their marks duplicate the effect.)

But that makes it even worse! If the majority of stuff the Houses do is not dependent on having their Dragonmarks at all, why are people not competing with them in those areas? If House Ghallanda makes a bunch of money running totally non-magical resorts and inns, why are there not other people doing that? Even if those people can't compete with the magical hotels Ghallanda offers at the high end, they can presumably compete with the non-magical ones they offer.

[White Blade]

Isn't that the exact definition of a distinction without a difference? It is a game, where things are defined mechanically. As far as the PCs can reasonably be concerned, if things have the same effect, they are the same.

Honestly, the vibe I'm getting here is that Eberron has thrown down a premise that is pretty wildly divergent from the baseline mechanics of 3.5 and expects you to go in and backfill the answers to things like "why do Dragonmarked Houses dominate the economy" or "what is the different between the Blood of Vol and state-sanctioned Karrnathi necromancers". Frankly, I just don't see that as acceptable in a product for which I am asked to spend actual money.
I still think this is a pedant's question and complaint. Why did Galifar dominate Khorvaire? Why do Aundair, Breland, and Karrnath dominate so much of the continent? Because they got there first. Bloodlines provided magical power and access to fun, Siberys-shard mundane uses. They also mean that when you roll 3d4+4 for an expert, you might wind up with a Siberys dragonmark. Families of concentrated magical power organized into fitting alliances and acquired economic dominance, which Galifar codified as legal monopolies because he couldn't take them in a straight fight.


Again, sure. But even very low level casters are better at doing magic than people with Dragonmarks. Also, the idea that less people are going to be Wizards than are going to happen to be the right race and happen to take the right feat is absurd. But elves don't pick a Mark of Shadows. Elves from Phiarlan just get born with one. A human aristocrat might choose to attend the arcane congress or the Twelve or a lesser magical institute or whatever, but twenty percent of the families of the Dragonmarked get the dragonmark. So if one in a hundred people is, for example, an adept, that adept might work anywhere for anyone. If one in five members of the Dragonmarked houses gets magical powers and mundane talent (Medani's Gather Information, Ghallanda's Diplomacy. Etc.), they're going to work for the family business. The Houses aren't the best possible at their given profession necessarily (though they invest substantially in being quite good.) but they're concentrated in a way other groups aren't.

[exelsisxax]

Isn't that the exact definition of a distinction without a difference? It is a game, where things are defined mechanically. As far as the PCs can reasonably be concerned, if things have the same effect, they are the same.

Honestly, the vibe I'm getting here is that Eberron has thrown down a premise that is pretty wildly divergent from the baseline mechanics of 3.5 and expects you to go in and backfill the answers to things like "why do Dragonmarked Houses dominate the economy" or "what is the different between the Blood of Vol and state-sanctioned Karrnathi necromancers". Frankly, I just don't see that as acceptable in a product for which I am asked to spend actual money.

Those things are answered in depth in every source relevant, and have been in this thread multiple times. You simply reject them. Your argument relies on the falsehood that eberron's laws of physics are made of 3.5 mechanics, if you stop thinking that way you might actually get something out of this.



Again, sure. But even very low level casters are better at doing magic than people with Dragonmarks. Also, the idea that less people are going to be Wizards than are going to happen to be the right race and happen to take the right feat is absurd.

Because there are more dragonmarked than low-level casters, dragonmarks require virtually no training, superior dragonmarks outclass any mundane spellcaster within their narrow scope, and the inheritance pattern of dragonmarks has, after centuries, slowly built up the economic and political power of a group of people that pass an inherent and automatic advantage to many of their offspring.

The idea that feats and wizard levels should be thought of as real in the setting is absurd, not the logical outcome of hereditary magic.




But that makes it even worse! If the majority of stuff the Houses do is not dependent on having their Dragonmarks at all, why are people not competing with them in those areas? If House Ghallanda makes a bunch of money running totally non-magical resorts and inns, why are there not other people doing that? Even if those people can't compete with the magical hotels Ghallanda offers at the high end, they can presumably compete with the non-magical ones they offer.

They DO compete. Just because wal-mart exists doesn't mean that every other store has been wiped out. But Ghallanda isn't ONE inn, it's a multinational corporation of hundreds of inns and taverns, with many hundreds more licensed or affiliated bussinesses, topped off with spy, thievery, and assassin networks. Cities have room for Ghallanda and entirely independent inns, but it would be willful stupidity to think that they don't reap the lion's share in the market as a whole. Without the standardization of dragonmarks, a lot of that power would go away, but they'd still basically be the khorvaire-wide tavern guild.

[Afgncaap5]

Speaking of Ghallanda and hungry for Lore, I've got kind of a dumb question:

Is there any information about the Gold Dragon Inn's history? Or is it pretty much something as described as an example of a Bound Business instead of a Licensed one, with the nature of the Goldie The Dragon mural and costumes being as they are?

[Falontani]

They DO compete. Just because wal-mart exists doesn't mean that every other store has been wiped out. But Ghallanda isn't ONE inn, it's a multinational corporation of hundreds of inns and taverns, with many hundreds more licensed or affiliated bussinesses, topped off with spy, thievery, and assassin networks. Cities have room for Ghallanda and entirely independent inns, but it would be willful stupidity to think that they don't reap the lion's share in the market as a whole. Without the standardization of dragonmarks, a lot of that power would go away, but they'd still basically be the khorvaire-wide tavern guild.

Just want to build off this; it is also a matter of reputation at this point. You could go to that inn that is super cheap, but this inn that is only marginally more expensive happens to have Ghallanda Certified on the entrance. They have one halfling, that is an apprentice themselves, but Ghallanda has put their reputation on the line by saying this inn is Ghallanda Certified. That halfling has no bearing on the service quality (and probably even makes it worse at this point) but Ghallanda believes that the rest of the staff is good enough to warrant a Ghallanda Certification and thus this inn being Ghallanda Certified draws in more customers, attracts more business, and therefore has more room to grow than the inn down the street with nearly identical statistics.

Another example of this is hospitals of House Jorasco. If you had the choice in real life to choosing what hospital you go to, would you go to the marginally more expensive fantastically staffed, wonderfully implemented, and clean hospital, or would you go to the shabby run down hospital? You'll go to the clean one just because you are paranoid with your health, even if the run down shabby hospital is marginally cheaper.

House Deneith
If you could hire a single mercenary from the US Military or a single mercenary from say Kuwait's Military for $10/Hr or $9/Hr respectively to protect the lives of yourself and your family from the mob, who would you choose?

House Orien
You can pay for a plane ticket from a name brand airline that has hundreds - thousands of traffic every day, or pay for a ticket to that guy with the same plane but it launches from their backyard?

reputation goes a long way, and that is why "prestigious" colleges are so "important"

[exelsisxax]

Just want to build off this; it is also a matter of reputation at this point. You could go to that inn that is super cheap, but this inn that is only marginally more expensive happens to have Ghallanda Certified on the entrance. They have one halfling, that is an apprentice themselves, but Ghallanda has put their reputation on the line by saying this inn is Ghallanda Certified. That halfling has no bearing on the service quality (and probably even makes it worse at this point) but Ghallanda believes that the rest of the staff is good enough to warrant a Ghallanda Certification and thus this inn being Ghallanda Certified draws in more customers, attracts more business, and therefore has more room to grow than the inn down the street with nearly identical statistics.

Another example of this is hospitals of House Jorasco. If you had the choice in real life to choosing what hospital you go to, would you go to the marginally more expensive fantastically staffed, wonderfully implemented, and clean hospital, or would you go to the shabby run down hospital? You'll go to the clean one just because you are paranoid with your health, even if the run down shabby hospital is marginally cheaper.

House Deneith
If you could hire a single mercenary from the US Military or a single mercenary from say Kuwait's Military for $10/Hr or $9/Hr respectively to protect the lives of yourself and your family from the mob, who would you choose?

House Orien
You can pay for a plane ticket from a name brand airline that has hundreds - thousands of traffic every day, or pay for a ticket to that guy with the same plane but it launches from their backyard?

reputation goes a long way, and that is why "prestigious" colleges are so "important"

In the other cases, it is even more evident.

It's not jorasco vs something cheaper and worse, it's jorasco or the heal skill. There are NO other businesses that sell healing, though you could get lucky if a local religious institution happens to have a priest with spellcasting capability that can deal with what you have, and also unlucky enough for your condition to be in serious danger. One is a hospital, the other is a bad odds longshot in the dark.

For airships, it's lyrandar or nothing. Airships and elemental-towed ships require the mark of storms, period.

Sivis also has the communications monopoly. If you want to have a conversation with someone far away, you both need to be spellcasters or you're paying the gnomes.

[InterstellarPro]

Isn't that the exact definition of a distinction without a difference? It is a game, where things are defined mechanically. As far as the PCs can reasonably be concerned, if things have the same effect, they are the same.

Honestly, the vibe I'm getting here is that Eberron has thrown down a premise that is pretty wildly divergent from the baseline mechanics of 3.5 and expects you to go in and backfill the answers to things like "why do Dragonmarked Houses dominate the economy" or "what is the different between the Blood of Vol and state-sanctioned Karrnathi necromancers". Frankly, I just don't see that as acceptable in a product for which I am asked to spend actual money.

You should not put down money for a product you do not like. I personally love Eberron. After I introduced it, all of my players started reading Eberron material and starting having ideas for how to implement campaign material. The material should be specific enough to provide a common basis of knowledge, but general enough that a DM is free to allow the setting to develop as their campaign does. If you do not like this specific implementation of a setting, there are plenty more for you to choose from.

For those of us who do like the setting, we will continue laying out money for a fantastic and well-designed setting.


Again, sure. But even very low level casters are better at doing magic than people with Dragonmarks. Also, the idea that less people are going to be Wizards than are going to happen to be the right race and happen to take the right feat is absurd.

In Eberron, technology is magic. People are not riding around on adepts. They ride around on Lightning Rails. They ride around on airships. Those items are extremely expensive. No single adept would be able to afford it. It required a family devoted to that specific aspect of magitechnology to produce. With even a cursory understanding of developing technologies, it is easy to see how the dragonmarked families became prominent. It is easy to see how they remain dominant. Producing competing technologies is simply not cost effective. In my post above, I gave specific 3.5 mechanics that make this apparent. I also disagree with those who are saying that dragonmarked members are more numerous in Eberron than adepts and magewrights. I believe it to be exactly the opposite. Spellcasters are FAR more numerous than dragonmarked members. It is the fact that they are so rare that makes them so special.


But that makes it even worse! If the majority of stuff the Houses do is not dependent on having their Dragonmarks at all, why are people not competing with them in those areas? If House Ghallanda makes a bunch of money running totally non-magical resorts and inns, why are there not other people doing that? Even if those people can't compete with the magical hotels Ghallanda offers at the high end, they can presumably compete with the non-magical ones they offer.

The setting actually made it apparent. House Ghallanda is not even close to the only providers of inn services. Are you familiar with Legal Seafood? They are a seafood restaurant in Boston, MA. Their quality control was so spectacular that the FDA eventually partnered with them to create seafood requirements across the country! The setting mentions that House Ghallanda began similar traditions throughout Khorvaire. Inns are certified by allowing House Ghallanda to inspect their facilities for quality control (as others have mentioned, as well). It is following a similar tradition. So, your question is, why House Ghallanda? Why not Legal Inns dominating the Inns across Khorvaire? That is simple. Historically, businesses were family businesses. The first corporations were extremely paternalistic. Guilds were often fraternal orders, where the longer you were a member of the guild, the more apprentices you would mentor, the larger your effective family became.

House Ghallanda had a very minor benefit that focused their family. They said, our family members are literally born to run inns. Look at what our dragonmarks can do! Those benefits were minor, but it was a birthright. Are you seriously saying that you cannot see how a family having a birthright would focus the ENTIRE family to dominate that market? What other family could possibly have such a claim?

[Afgncaap5]

House Ghallanda had a very minor benefit that focused their family. They said, our family members are literally born to run inns. Look at what our dragonmarks can do! Those benefits were minor, but it was a birthright. Are you seriously saying that you cannot see how a family having a birthright would focus the ENTIRE family to dominate that market? What other family could possibly have such a claim?

And to jump off this bit a little: the magical edge makes super sense historically, but it's also worth noting that the setting encourages big changes. The presence of a monopoly that could be replicated with magic and money is a story prompt, not a limitation; do you want to be the DM (or player of a DM) who has a game where your patron wants you to provide protection from Ghallanda while you run your taverns and inns? Do you want to be the player who literally tries to wrestle that monopoly out of their hands? Go for it!

Or alternatively: do you want to be the DM who sees the benefits as a good thing, at least in the short term for the players? A halfling patron approaches you, the dragonmark on her arm visible as she offers you the tankard of amber ale. She says "We've got a problem; someone's trying to muscle in on our turf by opening up a new business in Stormhome. Stormhome! Over night, their taverns are showing up just across the street from us without warning, and "accidents" are starting in our inns. Three patrons are dead already, and it's been a week. This is deliberate. Three thousand gold if you can find out who their backer is and tell me who's trying to sabotage our Stormhome businesses, and I'll make that TEN thousand if you also bring their head back to me. Think it over, and try our new copper egg ale, on the house."

Me, I totally buy that Ghallanda could get a monopoly started, especially with as rare as magicians who work as tavern keepers are. I don't know if I'd want to play in a campaign dedicated to toppling their industry and/or protecting it from business rivals, but for as secure as they are, they're not immune to the perils of a good, pulpy adventure story.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Honestly, the vibe I'm getting here is that Eberron has thrown down a premise that is pretty wildly divergent from the baseline mechanics of 3.5 and expects you to go in and backfill the answers to things like "why do Dragonmarked Houses dominate the economy" or "what is the different between the Blood of Vol and state-sanctioned Karrnathi necromancers". Frankly, I just don't see that as acceptable in a product for which I am asked to spend actual money.

The information is there, in the writings of Baker and others in sourcebooks and clarified or corrected elsewhere. That's kind of the point of this thread, the people who don't know getting answers from the people who do.

But actually both are answered, even if you don't want to accept the answer:

Q: Why do Dragonmarked Houses dominate the economy?

A: Because in early humanoid history the elves and halflings developed magical marks, four in total, which made them suited to specific tasks. Later, the dwarves who oversaw the sealing of the vaults of Mror also manifested these marks, and the humans, gnomes and some half-orcs (along the human line) also manifested these magical marks. At a time prior to the establishing of large nations these bloodlines discovered that mixing their bloodlines had deadly results and set about, alongside the uniting of several nations into a single kingdom, analyzing and keeping pure their bloodlines (the half-orc mark didn't exist yet and the oldest elf mark had been extinguished but that's immaterial) So as the kingdom of Galifer was built, the houses filled in the industries before anyone else.

In the same vein, the number of PC classes (as has been said) is low. And anyone who goes through the hassle of learning to do something like being a wizard or a cleric has better paths to money and power without trying to compete with thirteen noble houses that already own the market. They go work for the places that trained them, or get jobs with the rulers of their nations or large institutions that look outward to snatch up resources the thirteen houses haven't claimed yet

Q: What is the different between the Blood of Vol and state-sanctioned Karrnathi necromancers?

A: King Kaius III got rid of the state-sanctioned necromancers near the end of the war. Especially right now, he actively hunts them down. Any state-sanctioned necromancer would likely HAVE been a Seeker (an adherent to the Blood of Vol). So there is VERY little difference between the groups and this isn't a good example of your point. But much like the answer above, the answer is found in the sourcebooks and other materials available


Again, sure. But even very low level casters are better at doing magic than people with Dragonmarks. Also, the idea that less people are going to be Wizards than are going to happen to be the right race and happen to take the right feat is absurd.

They don't "take the feat" they manifest the mark. It's simply one of those feats like Jotunbrud or another racial feat which doesn't represent training.

But yes, fewer people are going to be wizards than are going to be low level scions of the dragonmarked houses. Because becoming a wizard requires extraordinary circumstance and training. Being a scion only requires birth.


But that makes it even worse! If the majority of stuff the Houses do is not dependent on having their Dragonmarks at all, why are people not competing with them in those areas? If House Ghallanda makes a bunch of money running totally non-magical resorts and inns, why are there not other people doing that? Even if those people can't compete with the magical hotels Ghallanda offers at the high end, they can presumably compete with the non-magical ones they offer.

Not really. Non-Ghallanda inns which refuse to get licensed by the house (their competition) would lack name recognition. When you go to a Ghallanda inn you won't be robbed, you will sleep in a bed with no lice, there will be good food and good ale and clean water. They don't mix mystery meat in, they don't water the wine. You are actually given sanctuary from local law enforcement so long as you pay (yes, the house has that much pull but you can bet you'll end up being forced to make it worth their while). All of this and more is represented by the Blink Dog sigil on the door.

You can't be sure of that at any inn which refuses to be under their banner. Full stop. Could be the nicest inn in the world, they can't make promises.


And to jump off this bit a little: the magical edge makes super sense historically, but it's also worth noting that the setting encourages big changes. The presence of a monopoly that could be replicated with magic and money is a story prompt, not a limitation; do you want to be the DM (or player of a DM) who has a game where your patron wants you to provide protection from Ghallanda while you run your taverns and inns? Do you want to be the player who literally tries to wrestle that monopoly out of their hands? Go for it!

Or alternatively: do you want to be the DM who sees the benefits as a good thing, at least in the short term for the players? A halfling patron approaches you, the dragonmark on her arm visible as she offers you the tankard of amber ale. She says "We've got a problem; someone's trying to muscle in on our turf by opening up a new business in Stormhome. Stormhome! Over night, their taverns are showing up just across the street from us without warning, and "accidents" are starting in our inns. Three patrons are dead already, and it's been a week. This is deliberate. Three thousand gold if you can find out who their backer is and tell me who's trying to sabotage our Stormhome businesses, and I'll make that TEN thousand if you also bring their head back to me. Think it over, and try our new copper egg ale, on the house."

Me, I totally buy that Ghallanda could get a monopoly started, especially with as rare as magicians who work as tavern keepers are. I don't know if I'd want to play in a campaign dedicated to toppling their industry and/or protecting it from business rivals, but for as secure as they are, they're not immune to the perils of a good, pulpy adventure story.

And, very importantly, the above is a very possible event in Eberron. It's not that a wizard/cleric/artificer CAN'T upset the economy and change the way the world works, it's that doing so would be the subject of an entire set of adventures, even a whole campaign! And there exist a lot of places in Eberron which aren't fully controlled by the houses, Q'Barra's Hope region, the Principalities, the Shadow Marches, Darguun and Drooam's wilder parts.

[Cosi]

I still think this is a pedant's question and complaint. Why did Galifar dominate Khorvaire? Why do Aundair, Breland, and Karrnath dominate so much of the continent? Because they got there first.

Sure. First-mover advantage is a thing. But so is just "being better". Ford was the first person to mass-produce cars. But right now the largest car manufacture is Toyota (https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreamurphy/2015/05/06/2015-global-2000-the-worlds-biggest-auto-companies/#439b472e5aed), with Ford not even making the top three. Taking the Greater Mark of Passage gives you a 1/day 5th level spell at 9th level. Instead being a Wizard gives you any 5th level spell you or any of your friends have discovered at least once per day and probably more.

But also, you don't expect every first mover to be the same. Sure, Humans rule Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane. But they don't rule Darguun or Valenar. So why are all the dominant economic powers Dragonmarked Houses? Why isn't there an organization of Necromancers who have been accumulating power by creating Spell-Stitched Undead? Why isn't the family of the guy who invented the Lyre of Building in charge of the entire construction industry?


Those things are answered in depth in every source relevant, and have been in this thread multiple times. You simply reject them. Your argument relies on the falsehood that eberron's laws of physics are made of 3.5 mechanics, if you stop thinking that way you might actually get something out of this.

Eberron is very explicit about marketing itself as working off of 3.5 mechanics. The literal first item on the list of things you are supposed to know about Eberron is "If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron." When Eberron tries to sell itself to you, that is the thing it leads with. Not "there are these things called Dragonmarks". As a result, I am profoundly unimpressed by arguments of the form "you're focusing too much on the mechanics." I mean, those arguments are never terribly good, but this is a context where I was explicitly told that "works with the mechanics of the game" was a selling point.


Because there are more dragonmarked than low-level casters,

So if one in a hundred people is, for example, an adept, that adept might work anywhere for anyone. If one in five members of the Dragonmarked houses gets magical powers

Let's do that math. I'm going to assume that a non-marked magic user is roughly equivalent to a marked one, with the balance of greater versatility and more uses versus slightly more domain-specific power coming out a wash.

There are (per the ECS) 2,000,000 citizens of Audair. That means, at our rate, 20,000 Adepts. To get an equivalent number of Dragonmarked people, you need 100,000 house members. That means that 5% of Aundair citizens are members of Dragonmarked houses, or around .5% per house (slightly less). Bear in mind that this is blood members, not total employees. Presumably there are Kundarak employees who are not Dwarves and are instead Humans or Goblins or whatever (and work as like clerks or janitors or something). But still, let's go with that.

Consider the largest employers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers_in_the_United_States) in the real world. Looking at the median on that list (Walgreens Boots Alliance at 300,000 employees), and comparing to the US population (rounded off to 300,000,000), we get roughly .1%, or about a fifth the nominal employment rate that the Dragonmarked Houses need to put up to actually have "more magic" than the rest of the world. If the Dragonmarked Houses existed in the real world, and employed the same half-a-percent of the national population they apparently do in Eberron, they would represent 13 out of the 14 largest employers in the nation (only Walmart has more).

So what you're saying is that a pre-industrial society supports more than a dozen businesses, each of which is (relatively speaking) large enough to rank individually among the largest employers even in the modern world, and each of which hires only from a single family? How on earth is that math supposed to add up?


superior dragonmarks outclass any mundane spellcaster within their narrow scope

Not all of them they don't. None of the powers the Mark of Making grants are not available to an equal-level caster (equal-level here meaning someone who is high enough level to have enough skills to qualify for the mark).


and the inheritance pattern of dragonmarks has, after centuries, slowly built up the economic and political power of a group of people that pass an inherent and automatic advantage to many of their offspring.

But Dragonmarks don't get any better over time. If you have the Mark of Making, your kids don't get any more or better Making than you do. They get the same mark, and hopefully advance far enough to get the good SLAs. But if you are part of an order of Wizards, you have access to every single spell any Wizard in that order has ever researched. Wizards have ways to accumulate power between generations in a way that the Dragonmarked Houses do not.


Just want to build off this; it is also a matter of reputation at this point.

Okay, but what about the earlier points? What about when Ghallanda was getting started and there was some other group of inn-keepers who just happened to be better at hospitality management? How did they win then? Do your magical tattoos also make you better at industrial organization?


If you had the choice in real life to choosing what hospital you go to, would you go to the marginally more expensive fantastically staffed, wonderfully implemented, and clean hospital, or would you go to the shabby run down hospital?

But the product Jorasco sells is "casting cure light wounds". That is a spell, and it is standardized by definition.


There are NO other businesses that sell healing

Why not? Seriously, what is actually stopping someone from organizing a bunch of people who can cast cure spells aside from the fact that apparently the only groups that are allowed to organize or have high level members are Dragonmarked Houses (and if no one else is allowed to organize or recruit high level people, you don't need Dragonmarks to dominate the market)? Further, what is stopping them from having done that at or before the point Jorasco organized and garnering the same reputation Jorasco has?


For airships, it's lyrandar or nothing. Airships and elemental-towed ships require the mark of storms, period.

But those airships aren't even maybe by Lyrandar, right? The people who actually produce airships are the Gnomes. Lyrandar pilots fly them, but airline pilots are not exactly an economically dominant group in the real world.


And to jump off this bit a little: the magical edge makes super sense historically, but it's also worth noting that the setting encourages big changes. The presence of a monopoly that could be replicated with magic and money is a story prompt, not a limitation; do you want to be the DM (or player of a DM) who has a game where your patron wants you to provide protection from Ghallanda while you run your taverns and inns? Do you want to be the player who literally tries to wrestle that monopoly out of their hands? Go for it!

But how? Literally, how do you do that? What actions would I take if I wanted to knock over their monopoly? How can I tell if my services are better? I have been told several times that the actual items and mechanics that Ghallanda uses to dominate the hospitality market are not written up anywhere -- they are described (apparently they have a magic blender), but they have not been given costs or rarities or behavior. Given that, what is Eberron bringing to the table aside from "the competition is called House Ghallanda and is mostly halflings"? You still have to write up all the actual items, abilities, or magic that turn "three 1/day SLAs" into "continent-spanning economic empire". How are you supposed to have an adventure that involves interacting with the things Ghallanda does to make money if those things are not actually given mechanics for you to interact with?

Fundamentally, how can you say that a supplement for a game allows you to do things or interact with things if it does not provide the rules for their function in that game?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Oh boy, more setting specific corrections to follow . . .


Sure. First-mover advantage is a thing. But so is just "being better". Ford was the first person to mass-produce cars. But right now the largest car manufacture is Toyota (https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreamurphy/2015/05/06/2015-global-2000-the-worlds-biggest-auto-companies/#439b472e5aed), with Ford not even making the top three. Taking the Greater Mark of Passage gives you a 1/day 5th level spell at 9th level. Instead being a Wizard gives you any 5th level spell you or any of your friends have discovered at least once per day and probably more.

And you can get that mark while not being a wizard, while a wizard (or cleric of the Traveller) cannot get their spells without being that class. That scion of Orien has skills which suit his or her specific house's needs instead of having to spend years achieving levels in a very rare PC class.


But also, you don't expect every first mover to be the same. Sure, Humans rule Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane. But they don't rule Darguun or Valenar. So why are all the dominant economic powers Dragonmarked Houses? Why isn't there an organization of Necromancers who have been accumulating power by creating Spell-Stitched Undead? Why isn't the family of the guy who invented the Lyre of Building in charge of the entire construction industry?

Both Darguun and Valenar are VERY young nations so they wouldn't have had the time to produce a strong industry. Valenar is mostly a human nation even now, with former Cyrans who accept the elves rule as citizens. The elves also don't much care. The people who manage Valenar's industry? House Lyrander.

[quote]Eberron is very explicit about marketing itself as working off of 3.5 mechanics. The literal first item on the list of things you are supposed to know about Eberron is "If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron." When Eberron tries to sell itself to you, that is the thing it leads with. Not "there are these things called Dragonmarks". As a result, I am profoundly unimpressed by arguments of the form "you're focusing too much on the mechanics." I mean, those arguments are never terribly good, but this is a context where I was explicitly told that "works with the mechanics of the game" was a selling point.

Luckily impressing anyone isn't the goal of the thread. Answering questions about the lore of Eberron is. And amazingly everything does have a place in Eberron if it exists in DnD. But oddly enough Tippyverse economics aren't in the official books. The most magically integrated setting, where magic is a part of daily city life and industry? Eberron.


Consider the largest employers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers_in_the_United_States) in the real world. Looking at the median on that list (Walgreens Boots Alliance at 300,000 employees), and comparing to the US population (rounded off to 300,000,000), we get roughly .1%, or about a fifth the nominal employment rate that the Dragonmarked Houses need to put up to actually have "more magic" than the rest of the world. If the Dragonmarked Houses existed in the real world, and employed the same half-a-percent of the national population they apparently do in Eberron, they would represent 13 out of the 14 largest employers in the nation (only Walmart has more).

And there you have it! Excellently done you've found the answer!


So what you're saying is that a pre-industrial society supports more than a dozen businesses, each of which is (relatively speaking) large enough to rank individually among the largest employers even in the modern world, and each of which hires only from a single family? How on earth is that math supposed to add up?

Yes. But it's not pre-industrial, just an industrial age built on magitek. But yes, that's EXACTLY the point. And the math adds up, you yourself did it above ^


But Dragonmarks don't get any better over time. If you have the Mark of Making, your kids don't get any more or better Making than you do. They get the same mark, and hopefully advance far enough to get the good SLAs. But if you are part of an order of Wizards, you have access to every single spell any Wizard in that order has ever researched. Wizards have ways to accumulate power between generations in a way that the Dragonmarked Houses do not.

Again, WHICH order of wizards? You mean the order of magewrights and extremely low level wizards?


Okay, but what about the earlier points? What about when Ghallanda was getting started and there was some other group of inn-keepers who just happened to be better at hospitality management? How did they win then? Do your magical tattoos also make you better at industrial organization?

Yes they were. They had a natural bonus to Diplomacy and were mainly noted for being expert neutral grounds to negotiate peaces and treaties on the Plains. When they joined the rest of Khorvaire Deneith and Cannith gave them a leg up.


But the product Jorasco sells is "casting cure light wounds". That is a spell, and it is standardized by definition.

And they're the only providers of it who sell it without requiring you to be of their faith and sell to all sides of a conflict.


Why not? Seriously, what is actually stopping someone from organizing a bunch of people who can cast cure spells aside from the fact that apparently the only groups that are allowed to organize or have high level members are Dragonmarked Houses (and if no one else is allowed to organize or recruit high level people, you don't need Dragonmarks to dominate the market)? Further, what is stopping them from having done that at or before the point Jorasco organized and garnering the same reputation Jorasco has?

Well once again, any other caster of cure light wounds is a divine caster who is limited by the tenets of their faith. Other groups have high level characters, but these characters aren't going into business and when they try they must compete with trusted established and rigid organizations with the resources to extinguish any competition. The druid Maskweavers of Talenta can heal, but they didn't replace Jorasco early on because Jorasco overcame individual conflicts to focus on healing all, and Deneith and Cannith introduced them to charging for it.

[quote]But those airships aren't even maybe by Lyrandar, right? The people who actually produce airships are the Gnomes. Lyrandar pilots fly them, but airline pilots are not exactly an economically dominant group in the real world.

The gnomes bind the elementals they don't make the airships necessarily. Lyrander were shipwrights before they were pilots, and farmers besides, working weather magic


But how? Literally, how do you do that? What actions would I take if I wanted to knock over their monopoly? How can I tell if my services are better? I have been told several times that the actual items and mechanics that Ghallanda uses to dominate the hospitality market are not written up anywhere -- they are described (apparently they have a magic blender), but they have not been given costs or rarities or behavior. Given that, what is Eberron bringing to the table aside from "the competition is called House Ghallanda and is mostly halflings"? You still have to write up all the actual items, abilities, or magic that turn "three 1/day SLAs" into "continent-spanning economic empire". How are you supposed to have an adventure that involves interacting with the things Ghallanda does to make money if those things are not actually given mechanics for you to interact with?

Those magic items exist, detailed in the setting rulebook, the Dragonmarked rulebook and some other places. The magic blender and other minor items are handwaved because they have no material effect on the game.


Fundamentally, how can you say that a supplement for a game allows you to do things or interact with things if it does not provide the rules for their function in that game?

The designers having only finite time, worked on things that matter for larger scale gaming, hadwaving the washing stones and flavour powders

[White Blade]

Sure. First-mover advantage is a thing. But so is just "being better". Ford was the first person to mass-produce cars. But right now the largest car manufacture is Toyota (https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreamurphy/2015/05/06/2015-global-2000-the-worlds-biggest-auto-companies/#439b472e5aed), with Ford not even making the top three. Taking the Greater Mark of Passage gives you a 1/day 5th level spell at 9th level. Instead being a Wizard gives you any 5th level spell you or any of your friends have discovered at least once per day and probably more.

But also, you don't expect every first mover to be the same. Sure, Humans rule Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane. But they don't rule Darguun or Valenar. So why are all the dominant economic powers Dragonmarked Houses? Why isn't there an organization of Necromancers who have been accumulating power by creating Spell-Stitched Undead? Why isn't the family of the guy who invented the Lyre of Building in charge of the entire construction industry?
You can get Greater Dragonmarks at level 8 through NPC/Dragonmark Heir, which should be much easier than getting a Wizard 8 (because Wizards are 1d3+Community Modifier and Experts are 3d4+Community modifier). Wizard training is just a harder, higher bar than Dragonmark Heirs. Of course, such groups as you mention could exist - There is a whole secret society dedicated to Capitalism Not Dragonmarkedism in the Aurum.

The Dragonmarked Houses are also generally partial replacements of the government - Ghallanda is the FDA, Deneith is the Secret Service and Interpol, Phiarlan was the NSA and is now the Mafia, Lyrander/Orion are the Department of Transportation, Jorasco is the Departmemt of Health. And they are such because they collasced first and took control of their areas of expertise.



Eberron is very explicit about marketing itself as working off of 3.5 mechanics. The literal first item on the list of things you are supposed to know about Eberron is "If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron." When Eberron tries to sell itself to you, that is the thing it leads with. Not "there are these things called Dragonmarks". As a result, I am profoundly unimpressed by arguments of the form "you're focusing too much on the mechanics." I mean, those arguments are never terribly good, but this is a context where I was explicitly told that "works with the mechanics of the game" was a selling point. You misunderstood the meaning of that rule, which is not "works with the mechanics of the game" but "Can accommodate any D&D material". For example, Keith Burles said he does not envision there being sub races (except the Drow) in Eberron, but if you want sub races there are places to put them - You could insert, say, wild elves deep in the jungles of Xen'drik. But the intention simply wasn't what you thought it was.


Let's do that math. I'm going to assume that a non-marked magic user is roughly equivalent to a marked one, with the balance of greater versatility and more uses versus slightly more domain-specific power coming out a wash.

There are (per the ECS) 2,000,000 citizens of Audair. That means, at our rate, 20,000 Adepts. To get an equivalent number of Dragonmarked people, you need 100,000 house members. That means that 5% of Aundair citizens are members of Dragonmarked houses, or around .5% per house (slightly less). Bear in mind that this is blood members, not total employees. Presumably there are Kundarak employees who are not Dwarves and are instead Humans or Goblins or whatever (and work as like clerks or janitors or something). But still, let's go with that.

Consider the largest employers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers_in_the_United_States) in the real world. Looking at the median on that list (Walgreens Boots Alliance at 300,000 employees), and comparing to the US population (rounded off to 300,000,000), we get roughly .1%, or about a fifth the nominal employment rate that the Dragonmarked Houses need to put up to actually have "more magic" than the rest of the world. If the Dragonmarked Houses existed in the real world, and employed the same half-a-percent of the national population they apparently do in Eberron, they would represent 13 out of the 14 largest employers in the nation (only Walmart has more).

So what you're saying is that a pre-industrial society supports more than a dozen businesses, each of which is (relatively speaking) large enough to rank individually among the largest employers even in the modern world, and each of which hires only from a single family? How on earth is that math supposed to add up?
Well, first of all, the Dragonmarked Houses are not "one family" as you say, but alliances of multiple families. There were five houses in Phiarlan before Thuranni butchered another Phiarlan family en masse. There are three clans within Tharashk. Multiple families is the norm in Dragonmarked Houses. These are not small families either, but sprawling clans brought together by a promise of profit and fear (historically) of the Aberrant Dragonmarks. But given that the houses got together a minimum of six hundred years ago, there's plenty of time for them to hit 5% of the population as large, organized corporation-family groups that set out to do grow. Not all the houses have done that, but those which did not have grown the least (Vadalis and Medani, as opposed to Orion and Lyrander).



Not all of them they don't. None of the powers the Mark of Making grants are not available to an equal-level caster (equal-level here meaning someone who is high enough level to have enough skills to qualify for the mark).


Okay, but what about the earlier points? What about when Ghallanda was getting started and there was some other group of inn-keepers who just happened to be better at hospitality management? How did they win then? Do your magical tattoos also make you better at industrial organization? They do make you substantially better at something related (+2 Diplomacy, making you much friendlier)



But the product Jorasco sells is "casting cure light wounds". That is a spell, and it is standardized by definition.

Why not? Seriously, what is actually stopping someone from organizing a bunch of people who can cast cure spells aside from the fact that apparently the only groups that are allowed to organize or have high level members are Dragonmarked Houses (and if no one else is allowed to organize or recruit high level people, you don't need Dragonmarks to dominate the market)? Further, what is stopping them from having done that at or before the point Jorasco organized and garnering the same reputation Jorasco has? Divine magic is the source of healing magic, by and large. Divine magic is born of belief in something Transcendant and greater than yourself. Cynically milking divine magic for money is rare, because to get it you must first be a true believer. A Friar of the Silver Flame isn't going to charge you for a healing spell at all - But there are just a lot less Friars with healing spells than Jorasco Dragonmarked with healing spells.

What makes it hard to counter-organize against, say, Deneith is entrenchment, talent born of the mark, and the small edges of the Dragonmark. When all this started, magic was significantly more primitive. The Human marks started organizing three hundred years before Galifar, thirteen hundred years before the present setting, which I would describe as post-Napoleonic Europe. If development was at the same rate as our world, the development equivalent is the Gauls during the fall of Rome. Iron swords vs. Ironclads.



But those airships aren't even maybe by Lyrandar, right? The people who actually produce airships are the Gnomes. Lyrandar pilots fly them, but airline pilots are not exactly an economically dominant group in the real world.
Lyranders abilities made them captains of the shipping industry, since they could use their marks to guide ships out of unfortunate waters. Besides that Cannith MAKES most of the ship, the Gnomes of Zilargo just provide a particularly valuable part.


But how? Literally, how do you do that? What actions would I take if I wanted to knock over their monopoly? How can I tell if my services are better? I have been told several times that the actual items and mechanics that Ghallanda uses to dominate the hospitality market are not written up anywhere -- they are described (apparently they have a magic blender), but they have not been given costs or rarities or behavior. Given that, what is Eberron bringing to the table aside from "the competition is called House Ghallanda and is mostly halflings"? You still have to write up all the actual items, abilities, or magic that turn "three 1/day SLAs" into "continent-spanning economic empire". How are you supposed to have an adventure that involves interacting with the things Ghallanda does to make money if those things are not actually given mechanics for you to interact with?

Fundamentally, how can you say that a supplement for a game allows you to do things or interact with things if it does not provide the rules for their function in that game?
I suppose the DM brews up the profit margins of House Ghallanda and sets up a few things to help? I think specificity would weaken the options here. If I'm running a game where all the players are members of House Tarkanan, aiming to take down the Dragonmarked Houses, I'm going to want the details on everything. I'll assign organizational profit trends, discreet benefits, industrial standards, magic items, etc. But I also want to be able to direct those things myself, to set challenges appropriate for my PCs. But what if I have just one person interested in that, a warlock justifying her powers as being from an Abberant Siberys Mark? I want to handwave it for most of the adventures (though in adventures that spotlight her, I'd include more). I think you want more details than are optimal for most games.

[InterstellarPro]

At this point, can we agree that we are not going to change Cosi's mind, and we should stop trying? If he/she does not like Eberron, that is all well and good. He/she does not need to play it or pay for it. Not every setting will entice every player. So, Eberron is not for Cosi. I accept that and respect it. Can we get back to actual questions about Eberron?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Fair enough. If we can all agree to disagree and return to the main thrust of the thread it's likely for the best. About 75% of this current page is just impotent arguments.

So here's a question, spinning off of the demon lords and archdevils question

We know that most of the demon lords are either Khyber native fiends from the Age of Demons or are replaced by (or are aspects of) other setting specific entities (Malcanthet may be a high powered succubus from Mabar which is the succubus' plane). Archdevils are similarly contained on Baator as angels who fell while still holding to the tenets of the Sovereign Host (versus Radiant Idols who reject the Host). Correct me if I'm wrong on either of those fronts I'd love to have a more correct view of it.

So what about the good celestials? Are the Hebdomad part of Shavarath, where archons battle devils and demons? Is Bel from the archdukes of hell instead found there too, waging his eternal war? Talasid and his Five Companions, the Guardinial paragons, are more a roving band. Are they on Lammania? Likely the Court of Stars is on Thelanis. But what I'm wanting to get at is are any of the good celestial paragons counterparts of Khyber's demon lords, would some of the celestial paragons be found instead as Couatl-flavoured draconic powers?

[White Blade]

So what about the good celestials? Are the Hebdomad part of Shavarath, where archons battle devils and demons? Is Bel from the archdukes of hell instead found there too, waging his eternal war? Talasid and his Five Companions, the Guardinial paragons, are more a roving band. Are they on Lammania? Likely the Court of Stars is on Thelanis. But what I'm wanting to get at is are any of the good celestial paragons counterparts of Khyber's demon lords, would some of the celestial paragons be found instead as Couatl-flavoured draconic powers?

I think Bel would fit wonderfully into Shavarath but I don't think there are good aligned celestials native to Eberron beyond the Couatls, who are themselves mostly assimilated into the Silver Flame. So, the Silver Flame is the equivalent of the Overlords, in a sense. The in-setting explanation for this is that Khyber slew Siberys and her children are, by extension, stronger than his are. From a metaphorical perspective (and I'm paraphrasing Keith Baker here), this underlines the concept that evil can destroy and dominate, whereas good operates by persuasion. From a Holmesian perspective, this is to avoid taking the focus off the players for any Big Good to look over them. The Overlords dominate, destroy, and corrupt whereas the Silver Flame simply empowers everyone who wants to strike back at or contain the darkness in the world.

[Dragolord]

For those of us who do like the setting, we will continue laying out money for a fantastic and well-designed setting.

If we ever get another chance to, at least.


That Demogorgon description is in an Eberron conversion of the Savage Tide module written by Keith Baker and it's pretty much exactly what you said.

Here's a link to the pdf for reference:
https://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTideConversion4.pdf

Ah, thank you. How gratifying.


I think Bel would fit wonderfully into Shavarath but I don't think there are good aligned celestials native to Eberron beyond the Couatls, who are themselves mostly assimilated into the Silver Flame. So, the Silver Flame is the equivalent of the Overlords, in a sense. The in-setting explanation for this is that Khyber slew Siberys and her children are, by extension, stronger than his are. From a metaphorical perspective (and I'm paraphrasing Keith Baker here), this underlines the concept that evil can destroy and dominate, whereas good operates by persuasion. From a Holmesian perspective, this is to avoid taking the focus off the players for any Big Good to look over them. The Overlords dominate, destroy, and corrupt whereas the Silver Flame simply empowers everyone who wants to strike back at or contain the darkness in the world.

You should also bear in mind that Eberron, due to its antagonistic relationship with the traditional alignment grid, has no planes of Good or Evil. Some planes have moral alignments, such as Fernia being Mildly Evil, and Baator was shoehorned in as a demiplane, but that's about it. The majority of Good outsiders either don't care about Khorvaire any more than its people care about the latest developments in Shavarath's wars, or are Couatls, who are mostly extinct. There's very little known about the former, because the setting is focussed on Eberron to the exclusion of all else. However... this is Eberron, so there's a place for whatever you want, though I'd recommend simply making them powerful outsiders, rather than gods.

[Thurbane]

If we ever get another chance to, at least.

I haven't really kept up with later editions; does Eberron have new official material in 4E and/or 5E?

[hamishspence]

4e, yes, a Player's Guide book and a Campaign book. 5e not so much, as far as I can tell.

[PhoenixPhyre]

4e, yes, a Player's Guide book and a Campaign book. 5e not so much, as far as I can tell.

It's mentioned in the 5e PHB, but only in passing. There was poorly received UA early on, but nothing since.

[White Blade]

4e, yes, a Player's Guide book and a Campaign book. 5e not so much, as far as I can tell.

There was also some Eye on Eberron articles, on the Trust, the Chamber, the Bloodsail Principalities, Daask, and Greywall. A few others as well I think.

[Thurbane]

That's odd. I got the feeling that Eberron (in the 3.5 days) was one of their most popular campaign settings, almost up there with FR.

[Afgncaap5]

That's odd. I got the feeling that Eberron (in the 3.5 days) was one of their most popular campaign settings, almost up there with FR.

It kinda was, but it never made it to the cash-cow level that The Land Of Driz'zt And Elminster did.

It's getting worse, too; I think it was the PH for 5e, but one of the 5th edition books actually talked about the nature of magic and said, effectively, that all magic is caused by The Weave that Forgotten Realms uses, and that no matter what it looks like in the universe itself, The Weave is ultimately responsible. Which I totally hate lore-wise, but that's what they said. They've kinda backed down from that a bit since they've started releasing Ravenloft stuff and acknowledging that other settings exist, but it's really bugging me.

On the note of 4e Eberron, though, I wanna point out that they released a Free RPG Day module for it: Khyber's Harvest (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110214/Khybers-Harvest-4e?cPath=9730_9738). I've never been big on the Shadow Marches so I've never incorporated it into anything, but it's more Eberron lore for free (and I loved the concept of one of the monster fights enough that I've worked it into a different Eberron thing I was working on.)

It was basically Living Darkness, a patch of dark shadows actually trying to kill players. I don't care for Belyshara, but I used it as a minion of The Shadow in another game. I should use the Living Words that show up in the cavern, too...

[RedMage125]

Here is a link to the last Eberron topic I am aware of: Eberron Q&A Thread: By Popular Demand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489584-Eberron-Q-amp-A-Thread-By-Popular-Demand)

Here's a question I don't believe was answered in that thread. Did anyone ever attempt to create a cure for lycanthropy? The spell or perhaps alchemical equivalent of an inoculation? This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21064096&postcount=199) goes into how dangerous lycanthropy became, and I wonder if anyone was forward thinking enough to try to prevent a new outbreak.

Hey there! I'm the guy whose post you quoted in the older thread (thank you, by the way, very flattering).

here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) is Keith Baker's Dragonshard article that I referred to.

From the article, the most relevant quote to your question is this:
"Curing lycanthropy is a difficult challenge. Natural lycanthropes cannot be cured, and an afflicted lycanthrope can be cured only if it wants to be; the shapeshifter can always choose to fail the associated Will saving throw. The first priests who sought a cure decided that it was impossible; only in the last decades of the purge did a band of more moderate and moral priests prove that it could be done."

That's the closest thing to an official answer. Does that help?

[Dragolord]

Hey there! I'm the guy whose post you quoted in the older thread (thank you, by the way, very flattering).

here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) is Keith Baker's Dragonshard article that I referred to.

From the article, the most relevant quote to your question is this:
"Curing lycanthropy is a difficult challenge. Natural lycanthropes cannot be cured, and an afflicted lycanthrope can be cured only if it wants to be; the shapeshifter can always choose to fail the associated Will saving throw. The first priests who sought a cure decided that it was impossible; only in the last decades of the purge did a band of more moderate and moral priests prove that it could be done."

That's the closest thing to an official answer. Does that help?

You know, I think that that's emblematic of what makes me love Eberron's approach to magic so much: being a werewolf is illegal, unless you're actively on your way to Flamekeep or somewhere similar to be cured. A werewolf isn't just some mysterious, unstoppable, killing machine, it's a perfectly mortal, though extremely dangerous, being. If one starts attacking villages, then people don't cower in fear and hope that four to six heavily armed strangers of the right level will turn up and save them, they call for help and the Silver Flame's templars turn up and capture or kill it in full accordance with the law, because of course in a world where that sort of thing is common there'd be an official procedure to follow.

[Falontani]

You know, I think that that's emblematic of what makes me love Eberron's approach to magic so much: being a werewolf is illegal, unless you're actively on your way to Flamekeep or somewhere similar to be cured. A werewolf isn't just some mysterious, unstoppable, killing machine, it's a perfectly mortal, though extremely dangerous, being. If one starts attacking villages, then people don't cower in fear and hope that four to six heavily armed strangers of the right level will turn up and save them, they call for help and the Silver Flame's templars turn up and capture or kill it in full accordance with the law, because of course in a world where that sort of thing is common there'd be an official procedure to follow.

I can't figure out if you have a problem with the fact that it is totally legal to just straight up butcher lycanthropes that attack villagers, or if you enjoy the fact that there is a normal law that they can all follow to get to the bottom of this.

[Dragolord]

I can't figure out if you have a problem with the fact that it is totally legal to just straight up butcher lycanthropes that attack villagers, or if you enjoy the fact that there is a normal law that they can all follow to get to the bottom of this.

The latter, obviously.

[White Blade]

Does anyone have any idea what, if any, role the Talons of Tiamat play in the world? They're sort of bracketed off from association with the Lords of Dust and they're obviously bad folk, but is there anything about what they do?

[Afgncaap5]

Does anyone have any idea what, if any, role the Talons of Tiamat play in the world? They're sort of bracketed off from association with the Lords of Dust and they're obviously bad folk, but is there anything about what they do?

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a lot of information about them. Pretty much just what's written in Dragons of Eberron (and via association we can include lore from the Draconomicon). Like you say, they're sort of related to the Lords of Dust, but also put a lot more stock in releasing Tiamat than just generally releasing Rakshasa Rajahs, seeing all the others as just pretenders.

The *good* news is that they can be a really nice model for other groups. Their "Tiamat-First" mentality could easily be modeled to make a similar group of people in the thrall of Bel Shalor or Levistus or any of the other bound demons. They're *also* really good at being tied to the Cults of the Dragon Below (what with her humanoid followers literally being cultists to a (demon/goddess/rajah) dragon below who is the daughter of Khyber itself.)

That ability to model other cults and organizations doesn't really do much to answer the core question, though. I'd say that what we know is limited to this, but supplemented by whatever we can glean from everything else Eberron says about Tiamat.

[Blue Wizard]

So I know a Lesser Schema is kinda famous as a scroll that you can use once per day, I think? Sorta like Eternal Wands are just wands that have a couple per day uses. But why do they call them Lesser? Was there ever a greater version, or something like that? And if so, why don't we have those now?

[RedMage125]

So I know a Lesser Schema is kinda famous as a scroll that you can use once per day, I think? Sorta like Eternal Wands are just wands that have a couple per day uses. But why do they call them Lesser? Was there ever a greater version, or something like that? And if so, why don't we have those now?

I beleive the "minor" comes from the limit on spells (only one spell up to 6th lvl). And as for your second question, this is not official, but I believe the intent is that "greater" schema are more in the nature of McGuffins and Plot Points. A Greater Schema led to the creation of warforged creation forges, for example. A greater schema might be the necessary to power an Eldritch Machine. The schema in Shadows of the LAst War and Grasp of the Emerald Claw are examples of greater schema.

[Yogibear41]

Is there every any mention of planetouched (aasimar, tiefling, etc) being able to have dragonmarks? Since aasimar and the like can be born from normal human parents and are almost fully human, I was just curious if a dragonmarked planetouched every popped up, even if it was an aberrant mark.

[Falontani]

Is there every any mention of planetouched (aasimar, tiefling, etc) being able to have dragonmarks? Since aasimar and the like can be born from normal human parents and are almost fully human, I was just curious if a dragonmarked planetouched every popped up, even if it was an aberrant mark.

outside of novels, no. However in my own homebrew I say that anyone that has diluted blood from someone that could have had a dragonmark can manifest an aberrant mark.

[Yogibear41]

outside of novels, no. However in my own homebrew I say that anyone that has diluted blood from someone that could have had a dragonmark can manifest an aberrant mark.

So your saying that in some novel there is a planetouched with a dragonmark? Anymore details on that? Aberrant or not? Aaasimar/Tiefling or some other?

[Falontani]

So your saying that in some novel there is a planetouched with a dragonmark? Anymore details on that? Aberrant or not? Aaasimar/Tiefling or some other?

In Keith Baker's own I believe there was a Dragonmarked warforged and essentially a Dragonmarked empty vessel

[Afgncaap5]

I think Keith Baker tries to downplay the significance of those, though; they were necessary for the stories he was writing, but he always seems to caution about the use of that kind of thing as having implications that make it risky to give a green light to.

So I'd be fine with a player or major plot NPC having that particular combination, but I'd try to make it have some crazy big story point to justify it (like, it's prophecied that they'll be killed to herald the release of Karrn the Conqueror from The Keeper's realm, or that they're meant to act as The Hand Of Olladra for the next age or that they'll need to lead an army to a decisive victory in a strange war that pops up on Shavarath that threatens to spill into the mortal realms via an artifact from Thelanis, something along those lines.)

[Dr.Samurai]

Is there every any mention of planetouched (aasimar, tiefling, etc) being able to have dragonmarks? Since aasimar and the like can be born from normal human parents and are almost fully human, I was just curious if a dragonmarked planetouched every popped up, even if it was an aberrant mark.
It depends on how you treat aasimar and tieflings in your game. If they are their own race separate and distinct from other races, then no, they can't manifest true dragonmarks. Or rather, you can have one that does but it would be 1. very rare and 2. a big deal.

If, on the other hand, planetouched in your games are just humans (or elves or dwarves, etc.) with some special qualities due to exposure to manifest zones or something, then I can see them as essentially being human enough to be able to manifest a true dragonmark. As an example, if you're playing a Vadalis human born in Sharn and you are touched by Syrania (so mechanically you're an aasimar), I don't see why you can't manifest a Mark of Handling. But it's a DM's call really.

As far as Aberrant marks go, anyone can manifest those.

[exelsisxax]

It depends on how you treat aasimar and tieflings in your game. If they are their own race separate and distinct from other races, then no, they can't manifest true dragonmarks. Or rather, you can have one that does but it would be 1. very rare and 2. a big deal.

If, on the other hand, planetouched in your games are just humans (or elves or dwarves, etc.) with some special qualities due to exposure to manifest zones or something, then I can see them as essentially being human enough to be able to manifest a true dragonmark. As an example, if you're playing a Vadalis human born in Sharn and you are touched by Syrania (so mechanically you're an aasimar), I don't see why you can't manifest a Mark of Handling. But it's a DM's call really.

As far as Aberrant marks go, anyone can manifest those.

Aberrant marks only appear on dragonmarked races. Anything else explicitly breaks setting convention. You could certainly have a good reason for doing that, like the author himself did (twice?) in his novels(non-canon, by the way) but even in those cases there was a baseline of shenanigans to support why they happened.

[Afgncaap5]

Is there ever more information on The Three than gets presented in Faiths Of Eberron on page 28? I've always kinda been fascinated with it as an aspect of the Rekkenmark Academy, but there's just not a lot of detail to it as far as I can tell.

[Omnificer]

Is there ever more information on The Three than gets presented in Faiths Of Eberron on page 28? I've always kinda been fascinated with it as an aspect of the Rekkenmark Academy, but there's just not a lot of detail to it as far as I can tell.

I don't think there's any more canon info on the sect itself, nothing that I can find online or in the books at least.

This article (http://keith-baker.com/tag/dark-six/) on the Dark Six on Keith Baker's website clarifies that they are The Three Faces of War. Rekkenmark has been a military city forever so it would make sense for a sect focusing on war to pop up there.

Two Eberron campaign websites added a bunch of details that I think aren't canon but seem like reasonable interpretations and expansions:
Wayfinder Foundation Cleric Domains (https://sites.google.com/site/wayfinderfoundationofkhorvaire/5th-edition/campaign-information/cleric-domains) which emphasizes it as a soldier's faith across the continent & Eberron: A Fleeting Peace Religions (https://eberron-a-fleeing-peace.obsidianportal.com/wikis/the-three-faces-of-war) which has the sect founded by Karrn the Conqueror and his writings used in military colleges across the continent introduce soldiers to the sect.

[Âmesang]

As Eberron coexists with the Plane of Shadow, if you were to run a setting crossover adventure, what timeline comparison would you suggest? While Dungeons & Dragons Online used 3e mechanics, from what I can tell its "Menace of the Underdark" adventure seemed as though it tried linking the typical 998YK year with 1479DR, the beginning of 4e FORGOTTEN REALMS®.

Interestingly, "Legacies of the Suel Imperium" in DRAGON Magazine #241 provided a timeline comparison between FORGOTTEN REALMS®, 1369DR, and WORLD OF GREYHAWK®, 585CY; this would then mean that 3e GREYHAWK'S® starting year, 591CY, would correspond to the EBERRON® year of 894YK…

…the year King Jarot of Galifar dies and the Last War begins. Might make for an interesting, alternate timeline campaign idea, at least; heck, maybe the Mournland was a result of some foolish planes-folk messing around!

[Nifft]

As Eberron coexists with the Plane of Shadow, if you were to run a setting crossover adventure, what timeline comparison would you suggest?

d20 Modern or Mutants & Masterminds.

[FelineArchmage]

Hi!

A couple questions that y'all might be able to answer/point me in the direction of more reading material. :smallsmile:

1. The Promise of Fire: Is there any more information other than that it is a belief by a drow tribe of Xen'drik that - if they can get there - they are promised immortality? I haven't read Secrets of Xen'drik yet, so I don't know if there is more about it in there.

2. Cults of the Dragon Below: I've read what I could in Faiths of Eberron and the Campaign Setting. It is all very general and it seems that they aren't a large cohesive group - more-so small individual cults who do their own thing. Are there any notable figures or groups (past or present) who are mentioned that have caused ripples in support of their faith? In a future campaign, I want to make the Dragon's Below the main antagonist, and I was wondering if there was anyone before who has tried to unite all the small groups into one to accomplish their (maddened) goals.

3. Dimensional Seals:: Whenever I've seen this mentioned, it was only briefly in the fact that the dimensional seals were a thing and that they were created a long time ago by the Gatekeepers to seal Xoriat away and keeping it from becoming coterminous. The knowledge of creating them has been lost to time. Is there any specific information mentioned anywhere about the seals?

Thank you!

[InterstellarPro]

Hi!

A couple questions that y'all might be able to answer/point me in the direction of more reading material. :smallsmile:

1. The Promise of Fire: Is there any more information other than that it is a belief by a drow tribe of Xen'drik that - if they can get there - they are promised immortality? I haven't read Secrets of Xen'drik yet, so I don't know if there is more about it in there.

2. Cults of the Dragon Below: I've read what I could in Faiths of Eberron and the Campaign Setting. It is all very general and it seems that they aren't a large cohesive group - more-so small individual cults who do their own thing. Are there any notable figures or groups (past or present) who are mentioned that have caused ripples in support of their faith? In a future campaign, I want to make the Dragon's Below the main antagonist, and I was wondering if there was anyone before who has tried to unite all the small groups into one to accomplish their (maddened) goals.

3. Dimensional Seals:: Whenever I've seen this mentioned, it was only briefly in the fact that the dimensional seals were a thing and that they were created a long time ago by the Gatekeepers to seal Xoriat away and keeping it from becoming coterminous. The knowledge of creating them has been lost to time. Is there any specific information mentioned anywhere about the seals?

Thank you!

(3) There is mention (I do not recall which book, but I think the main campaign setting), the Dimensional Seals were created by the Green Dragon Vvaraak, who was the first gatekeeper. There is not much more information available, but if you adhere to the Draconomicon describing a dragon's twilight, it is likely that Vvaraak became a guardian of the land (given her druidic appreciation) when she died. Nowhere have I seen anything state where she may have passed, and in my game, I decided that while the dragon's essence remains to guard the land, its memories do not, or at least they do not in a way understandable to mortals.

I also made it so that the magics involved draconic sacrifice magic. Vvaraak gathered together aberrations of all types and performed a mass sacrifice to create the dimensional seals. The magic was not strong enough to create a cataclysm, like the moon breaker device did for the giants of Xen'Drik in their war with Dal Quor, but it was also less permanent (the campaign setting mentions that the magic of the seals is beginning to fade).

(2) In Sharn: The City of Towers, it mentions the largest group in Sharn on page 175. I am not sure about other cities.

(1) Secrets of Xen'Drik has one to two pages about the Promise of Fire. It is still very vague, from what I recall.

[FelineArchmage]

(3) There is mention (I do not recall which book, but I think the main campaign setting), the Dimensional Seals were created by the Green Dragon Vvaraak, who was the first gatekeeper. There is not much more information available, but if you adhere to the Draconomicon describing a dragon's twilight, it is likely that Vvaraak became a guardian of the land (given her druidic appreciation) when she died. Nowhere have I seen anything state where she may have passed, and in my game, I decided that while the dragon's essence remains to guard the land, its memories do not, or at least they do not in a way understandable to mortals.

I also made it so that the magics involved draconic sacrifice magic. Vvaraak gathered together aberrations of all types and performed a mass sacrifice to create the dimensional seals. The magic was not strong enough to create a cataclysm, like the moon breaker device did for the giants of Xen'Drik in their war with Dal Quor, but it was also less permanent (the campaign setting mentions that the magic of the seals is beginning to fade).

(2) In Sharn: The City of Towers, it mentions the largest group in Sharn on page 175. I am not sure about other cities.

(1) Secrets of Xen'Drik has one to two pages about the Promise of Fire. It is still very vague, from what I recall.

Y'know, Vvaraak was just mentioned in one of our campaigns very recently. I can't believe I forgot about that already.

But thanks! I'll check out (1) and (2)!

[Nifft]

2. Cults of the Dragon Below: I've read what I could in Faiths of Eberron and the Campaign Setting. It is all very general and it seems that they aren't a large cohesive group - more-so small individual cults who do their own thing. Are there any notable figures or groups (past or present) who are mentioned that have caused ripples in support of their faith? In a future campaign, I want to make the Dragon's Below the main antagonist, and I was wondering if there was anyone before who has tried to unite all the small groups into one to accomplish their (maddened) goals.

http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-the-daelkyr-and-their-cults/

Summary: cults of the Dragon Below are not monolithic. Their main trait is that they are usually composed of people who would be clinically diagnosed as insane in some way or another.

[Afgncaap5]

While it's not canon, I'd suggest supplementing Baker's blog on the Cults of the Dragon Below with the things he had to say on the Manifest Zone podcast. He says a lot of what the blog said, but goes into some more details and adds a few different ways to spin the concept.

[Dragolord]

While it's not canon, I'd suggest supplementing Baker's blog on the Cults of the Dragon Below with the things he had to say on the Manifest Zone podcast. He says a lot of what the blog said, but goes into some more details and adds a few different ways to spin the concept.

On the same topic, for those who aren't aware, none of the original stuff on his blog is canon, either, as WoTC owns Eberron. It's just what the man who created the setting does in his own games, which is almost as good, really.

[exelsisxax]

On the same topic, for those who aren't aware, none of the original stuff on his blog is canon, either, as WoTC owns Eberron. It's just what the man who created the setting does in his own games, which is almost as good, really.

That's a strange way of spelling "better".

[Zombimode]

On the same topic, for those who aren't aware, none of the original stuff on his blog is canon, either, as WoTC owns Eberron. It's just what the man who created the setting does in his own games, which is almost as good, really.

If you go that route, you would have to differentiate between different Kinds of non-canon.

You have material that is non-canon because it is not part of the Settings description, but rather a specific Setting implementation. All novels including the ones written by Baker himself are non-canon in this sense.

Then you have material that is non-canon because it is not "official" on legal grounds. Like Bakes Blog.

And in the same turn you would have to accept stuff like alle 5e Eberron material as canon - no matter how far it is removed from Bakers vision.


Thus, I don't think this is a helpful view on what things can be considered canon for Eberron and what is not.


In my view, I take everything published under 3.5 for Eberron (including the excellent articles by Baker in the WotC Archives) as core description of the Setting (although I do take Forge of War with a grain of salt).
I highly value Bakers Blog and take it into consideration. Thankfully, the Blog is mostly written in a "here are some suggestions" style.

Everything from the 4e and 5e era is subject to a very stric BS filter. It ranks lower then even the novels on what I would incorporate in my implementation of Eberron.

[fallensavior]

I'm looking for some assistance with the particular lore issues in the Eberron adventure path. (FF, SotLW, WotVB, GotEC)

I posted about this previously and came up with a good hook to route the party back to Elaydren once EotLQ concludes:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546698-3-5-Eberron-Adventure-Path-Conclusion


U,
Your services are direly needed in Sharn. The EC gambit paid off. The pawns delivered the pattern to E unquestioningly, and she it to me. The wheels of the next scheme are already in motion. I need my best researchers here to study this "Xulo" before the LoB arrives. Abandon your current assignment.
-M

I still need to handcraft a capstone adventure to bring all this together, I realize there will be speculation needed here, but I'd like it to at least plausibly make sense within the lore. The biggest question mark is Xulo's nature. Xulo is found in the ruins of a Giant temple with a Creation Forge and a prototype warforged. All signs seem to indicate (though it is never explicitly stated) that the ancient Giants invented the Warforged (presumably to fight the Quori) and house Cannith plagiarized/appropriated/refined their work. That makes sense in a vacuum, but then Secrets of Xendrik says no, the original Warforged were absolutely created by the Quori, and here is the Quori outpost with the Creation Forge in it that Cannith ripped off their design from.

So is it more plausible that Xulo is a sentient item created by the Giants to create their own Warforged to fight the Quori and their Warforged. Or that Xulo is a Quori spirit/creation and it was found in Giant ruins (with a Creation Forge and prototype Warforged in tow) for no apparent reason...I mean the ruins could have been captured in antiquity or whatever, but since there is no other indication of that and the logistics of moving a Creation Forge or building one in situ seem prohibitive. Moreover, it doesn't make any sense for the prototype to be there, since you wouldn't do the original research to make a prototype from the original forge in a captured enemy base and if it's a secondary forge then you wouldn't be making/researching a prototype.

Once the question of Xulo's nature is settled, I want to have a big showdown with the various villains, including Merrix, the Lord of Blades, Xulo, and I feel I need to make a strong tie-in to WotVB here (or else that whole adventure is merely a side quest) so probably Calderus and the Soul Blade too (and maybe even Lucan).

[Dragolord]

If you go that route, you would have to differentiate between different Kinds of non-canon.


Well... yes, I do. For instance, we have canon, things which are technically canon, but were written by someone who didn't know anything about the setting, and so should be glossed over (see Forge of War), things which are very-definitely-not-canon-in-case-WotC's-lawyers-are-reading-this, such as Keith Baker's blog, and actual official non-canon, like the novels.



The biggest question mark is Xulo's nature. Xulo is found in the ruins of a Giant temple with a Creation Forge and a prototype warforged. All signs seem to indicate (though it is never explicitly stated) that the ancient Giants invented the Warforged (presumably to fight the Quori) and house Cannith plagiarized/appropriated/refined their work. That makes sense in a vacuum, but then Secrets of Xendrik says no, the original Warforged were absolutely created by the Quori, and here is the Quori outpost with the Creation Forge in it that Cannith ripped off their design from.

So is it more plausible that Xulo is a sentient item created by the Giants to create their own Warforged to fight the Quori and their Warforged. Or that Xulo is a Quori spirit/creation and it was found in Giant ruins (with a Creation Forge and prototype Warforged in tow) for no apparent reason...I mean the ruins could have been captured in antiquity or whatever, but since there is no other indication of that and the logistics of moving a Creation Forge or building one in situ seem prohibitive. Moreover, it doesn't make any sense for the prototype to be there, since you wouldn't do the original research to make a prototype from the original forge in a captured enemy base and if it's a secondary forge then you wouldn't be making/researching a prototype.

It isn't as if the Quori had much time to build infrastructure during the invasion. There's no reason to suppose that they couldn't have simply taken over the temple and begun using it.

[fallensavior]

Is there anything in the lore about the Quori intending to use the Warforged as empty vessels?

Is it possible Xulo could be a weapon created by the Giants to give sentience to the enemy Warforged?

[InterstellarPro]

Is there anything in the lore about the Quori intending to use the Warforged as empty vessels?

Is it possible Xulo could be a weapon created by the Giants to give sentience to the enemy Warforged?

I do not recall where I read about it, but I seem to remember something about warforged were not the empty vessels. It was the Docents they would use that would carry the Quori spirit. The Warforged were always meant to be mindless shells, completely controlled by the Quori spirits contained in the Docents. But, again, I do not recall where I read about that.

[Omnificer]

I do not recall where I read about it, but I seem to remember something about warforged were not the empty vessels. It was the Docents they would use that would carry the Quori spirit. The Warforged were always meant to be mindless shells, completely controlled by the Quori spirits contained in the Docents. But, again, I do not recall where I read about that.

So, the whole warforged origin I think is intentionally vague with the intention that what's in the books on it could be an incorrect interpretation by NPCs, lies by other NPCs, or exactly what happened. Like what caused the Day of Mourning.

In Secrets of Xen'drik on page 155 an intelligent Docent named Shira suggests exactly that the docents were meant to hold Quori minds and warforged were to hold the docents. On top of that, the Quori were trying to peacefully escape before the giants started a war. But the section on it has a bunch of open ended questions, like: Is she telling the truth, or playing games of her own?
Shira can speak Quori, can let a warforged dream by opening a way to Dal Quor, and will become inactive as it is then caught up in the plane, so Shira is most likely an actual Quori. Whether the docents and warforged were designed for that (and whether those Quori were good aligned) is the open ended part.

I personally like the idea of it being accurate and I think the non-canon Dreaming Dark novels goes with part of that interpretation.

[Zombimode]

So, the whole warforged origin I think is intentionally vague with the intention that what's in the books on it could be an incorrect interpretation by NPCs, lies by other NPCs, or exactly what happened. Like what caused the Day of Mourning.

In Secrets of Xen'drik on page 155 an intelligent Docent named Shira suggests exactly that the docents were meant to hold Quori minds and warforged were to hold the docents. On top of that, the Quori were trying to peacefully escape before the giants started a war. But the section on it has a bunch of open ended questions, like: Is she telling the truth, or playing games of her own?
Shira can speak Quori, can let a warforged dream by opening a way to Dal Quor, and will become inactive as it is then caught up in the plane, so Shira is most likely an actual Quori. Whether the docents and warforged were designed for that (and whether those Quori were good aligned) is the open ended part.

And aren't the pre-Xendrik-Apocalypse Quori a completely different deal than the "modern" quori?

[Omnificer]

And aren't the pre-Xendrik-Apocalypse Quori a completely different deal than the "modern" quori?

Yes. The goal of the Dreaming Dark is to prevent "the turning of the age" which I think can be considered a large enough shift in the status quo of the material plane that Dal Quor and anything living in it gets completely reformed.

This would effectively kill all of the Quori so that's why they impose such a rigid, but stable, way of life in Riedra, to keep the status quo.

The previous turning of the age wiped out the Quori that fought the giants. If Shira the docent is telling the truth, she's the only survivor because she's the only Quori successfully installed into a docent and if she ever goes back to Dal Quor she's a goner.

So, assuming Shira's telling the truth then there's a lot of possibility for the current Quori to be eager to pick up where the old Quori left off.

[Clistenes]

That seems like a huge design flaw. If your setting is built on having giant magical guilds that control huge swaths of commerce, priority number one should be making sure the mechanics back that up (well, maybe given the weakness of 3e's economics rules priority one should be producing an economy that has commerce to control, but still).



Are those somehow better than just using the rules in the DMG to make items that only work for Wizards with ranks in Perform (Throat Singing) or whatever other gen-ed your Wizard's guild requires? I get that there is fluff that says they are in charge. I just don't see any mechanical backing for any of it. It seems like Wizards' ability to tell their magical knowledge to other Wizards is a much bigger advantage than the things Dragonmarked Houses have going for them, and the Wizard guilds of the world should be correspondingly more powerful than the Dragonmarked Houses.



You can get most of the way to Warforged (and probably better for the stated purpose of "mobile weapons") with animate objects + permanency. If you can get someone with awaken construct (which, admittedly, is a 9th level spell), you can just make your own Warforged except they are the size of houses and can fly.



So they invented a magical key? Again, I just don't see what is inherently Dragonmarked about that. Yes, if you have to pony up the Mark of Making to continue the adventure, obviously being able to do that is important. But why does it have to be the Mark of Making and not the sigil of the Order of the Ebon Hand or the mark of Fangs of the Judging God or the insignia of Thule Society or whatever symbol of other (secret) organization you want to have be important? What is giving the Dragonmarked Houses a mechanical head start on any other semi-organized group of magical folks? Their plan of "breed new people who might get minor magic" seems way worse than the plans that various Necromancers (Spell-Stitch Undead that are guaranteed to get magic), Summoners (summon up angels that are already magic), or Wizard Guilds (train people who have already been born) have for producing more magic to win the economy with.



Okay, but again, "you get totally arbitrary magical powers because the DM wants to give you something to do because of the special character option you took" is not really a stable system for setting up an economic dynasty. Why is the world not dominated by Sorcerers whose Dragon Heritage Feats give them totally arbitrary visions of extra magical powers because dragons? This seems like basically circular logic "the setting says that Dragonmarked people are important, therefore you should do things to make Dragonmarked people important". The mechanics of the setting should promote the desired setting, not leave a giant hole for the DM to fill in after the fact.

I mean, look at the damn Artificer! The same book that asks us to believe the Dragonmarked Houses dominate commerce produces an entire character class dedicated to commerce magic with no inherent association with them! The hell is that about?



Sure, that is a workable paradigm. If Dragonmarks gave Sorcerers a pile of extra spells, and the Dragonmarked Houses produced Sorcerers at way above the base rate, we might have something to work with. Is there anything like that in the flavor or mechanics of the setting?



I guess. But the dragonmarks still kind of blow. Look at the metamagic rods versus the dragonmark rods. The dragonmark ones cost half price. But they're locked into the half-a-dozen (give or take) dragonmark powers you personally have, and those often don't really benefit from them. Extended dimension door is not really a winner.



The point was less speak with dead specifically and more that you can just train people to do magic that seems way more impressive than least (or even lesser) dragonmarks. And they also get all the other magic they would normally get for being a Beguiler or a Cleric. Mentor/Apprentice allowing you to train 5th level characters kind of spanks the pants off of the Dragonmarked House's plan of breeding people who maybe have magical powers (particularly for the long-lived races who have to sit around waiting the better part of a century for new heirs to pop out).

I think the main advantage of Dragonmak items is that they are easier, faster and cheaper to make. You don't need a caster level or just a low caster level, you don't need a lump of gold the size of he moon, and you don't need to expend loads of xp. You just need to gather dragonshards of the right type and size, and follow the intructions...

I don't think they ever released rules for dragonshard crafting, probably because they felt that would make dragonmarked characters just too powerful...

[Cosi]

I don't think they ever released rules for dragonshard crafting, probably because they felt that would make dragonmarked characters just too powerful...

I know no one really wants to start this argument again, but isn't is absolutely goddamn absurd to say "we're not going to do X because it would make the people who are supposed to dominate the setting too good"? If the point is that people with Dragonmarks are better than you, refusing to release rules because they would make people with dragonmarks better than you is probably the most direct possible conflict between setting and rules.

[Falontani]

I think the main advantage of Dragonmak items is that they are easier, faster and cheaper to make. You don't need a caster level or just a low caster level, you don't need a lump of gold the size of he moon, and you don't need to expend loads of xp. You just need to gather dragonshards of the right type and size, and follow the intructions...

I don't think they ever released rules for dragonshard crafting, probably because they felt that would make dragonmarked characters just too powerful...

They did, in the Eberron Campaign Setting; and while the GP cost of some of the items are extravagantly low (Altar of Resurrection, 13k GP) for example, they all require a caster level to create

[Nifft]

Yes. The goal of the Dreaming Dark is to prevent "the turning of the age" which I think can be considered a large enough shift in the status quo of the material plane that Dal Quor and anything living in it gets completely reformed.

This would effectively kill all of the Quori so that's why they impose such a rigid, but stable, way of life in Riedra, to keep the status quo.

The previous turning of the age wiped out the Quori that fought the giants. If Shira the docent is telling the truth, she's the only survivor because she's the only Quori successfully installed into a docent and if she ever goes back to Dal Quor she's a goner.

So, assuming Shira's telling the truth then there's a lot of possibility for the current Quori to be eager to pick up where the old Quori left off. There's also the case of the Kalashtar, who have a fragment of a few old-school pre-Dark Quori sharing each of their skulls.

IIRC from SoS there's a thing about how if all Kalashtar of a given tradition die out, then that tradition's old-school Quori reincarnates as a new, evil Quori.


I know no one really wants to start this argument again, but isn't is absolutely goddamn absurd to say "we're not going to do X because it would make the people who are supposed to dominate the setting too good"? If the point is that people with Dragonmarks are better than you, refusing to release rules because they would make people with dragonmarks better than you is probably the most direct possible conflict between setting and rules.

The only beings who were supposed to literally dominate the setting were the Overlords, and that ended a while back.

Dragonmarked Houses are supposed to be powerful enough that kings can't tell trivially them what to do, but neither can they trivially control kings.

They're a big deal, but they're not the only deal in town.

[Dragolord]

There's also the case of the Kalashtar, who have a fragment of a few old-school pre-Dark Quori sharing each of their skulls.

Aren't the Kalashtar spirits simply Quori from this age who were good, for some reason?

[Nifft]

Aren't the Kalashtar spirits simply Quori from this age who were good, for some reason? Yes, that's the reason given in SoS.



The war between the kalashtar and the Inspired has little to do with Eberron. It is a struggle to determine the fate of Dal Quor, the region of dreams. Dal Quor is a mutable plane. When mortals dream, they mold their own pockets of reality along the fringes. The heart of the plane is shaped by a force greater than any mortal soul, a force that can be seen only in the reality that it creates. This is the Quor Tarai, the spirit of the age, and the age it has created is a nightmare. The quori are the children of the Quor Tarai, and they call their creator il-Lashtavar (the Darkness that Dreams, or the Dreaming Dark). The organization known as the Dreaming Dark is composed of the personal agents of il-Lashtavar.

Quori are immortal, yet they don't know their entire history. They have no recollection of events that occurred before the Age of Monsters on Eberron. Studying this, quori sages concluded that Dal Quor itself undergoes cat* aclysmic cycles. When the cycle turns, the plane implodes and explodes. The Quor Tarai is transformed and reborn, as are all the spirits tied to the realm. Dal Quor and the quori will always exist in some form, but the quori of the future might have nothing in common with the quori of the present. In fact, evidence suggested that the next age could be radically different. One of the wisest of the quori was a kalaraq named Taratai, and she claimed that il-Lashtavar would be replaced by il-Yannah—a great light that would banish the nightmare at the heart of the realm.

The raw energy of the quori might survive the turn of the age, but personality and memory—everything that defined them—would be destroyed. For a race of immor* tals, this was truly terrifying, and it galvanized the quori to action. They were determined to find a way to stop the turn of the cycle, to preserve the darkness forever. A few quori disagreed, saying that the cycle must be allowed to run its course; chief among these was Taratai. Those loyal to il-Lashtavar hunted these heretics until the spirits were finally forced to flee Dal Quor, in time becoming the kalashtar.


I don't recall if the idea of Kalashtar being pre-Dark Quori was something that pre-dated SoS, or if it's just one DM's invention.

It was consistent with the SoX docent Shira being pre-Dark thanks to finding a hiding place, and it seems pretty congruent that the current Dark Quori created the Inspired as a last-ditch way to hide from the turning of the age, but that SoS does directly support your memory.

[Kol Korran]

Hey all. Despite my nickname, and being an Eberron fan, I'm far less informed on the actual written material in it than many on this thread seems to be (I quite liked the sound of the name Kol Korran, and so went with it. I ave no idea how to change, and have grown to like it in time). I have read but some of the books, and so this thread makes an excellent place to ask questions!

I have been having an idea for a campaign (I even started writing a campaign planning log for it, but writing that is just not feasible with the free time I have on my hand). The campaign take place in the region now known as Droaam, but a few years before the lycanthropic purge... I'm mostly interested in a few matters:

1- The races of the region:
There is precious little info about them in the ECS, and little elsewhere (So far as I've found). I'm mostly interested if there is anything interesting written about the following in Eberron: Gnolls, ogres, centaurs, harpies. Mostly in terms of past, origins, culture, interactions and so on.

2- The Daelkyr- Dhakkan war:
The info I've found is only in broad strokes. Yet the region of Droaam is dpeicted in several places as a major conflict zone. Is there any info more focused on the war, or the effects of the war in the region?

3- The Great Crag:
Other than it being the court of the hags, and that there are many secrets/ treasures/ thing to be found in it, any more info on it? History? Origin? Any special features?

4- Byeshk, and the Byeshk Mountains:
Is there any explanation of WHY this metal bypasses abberations' DR? Any info on the mountains other than harpy flights in it? In short- except for it's name and direct application, any explanation as to it's history and setting importance?

5- The Empire of Dhakkan:
Again, I found only little info on what it was actually like. I read the "Doom of Kings" trilogy, which added interesting touches. Any info on "the six kings?", or regions? Government? Specific achievements? culture?

Thanks in advance,
Kol.

[Zombimode]

5- The Empire of Dhakkan:[/B]
Again, I found only little info on what it was actually like. I read the "Doom of Kings" trilogy, which added interesting touches. Any info on "the six kings?", or regions? Government? Specific achievements? culture?

Well, the Dhakkani were pretty great at bio-engineering. Remember, Hobgoblins are implied to be the base-stock, while all other gobliniods are derived for specific purposes via bio-engineering.

[fallensavior]

And aren't the pre-Xendrik-Apocalypse Quori a completely different deal than the "modern" quori?


So, the whole warforged origin I think is intentionally vague with the intention that what's in the books on it could be an incorrect interpretation by NPCs, lies by other NPCs, or exactly what happened. Like what caused the Day of Mourning.

In Secrets of Xen'drik on page 155 an intelligent Docent named Shira suggests exactly that the docents were meant to hold Quori minds and warforged were to hold the docents. On top of that, the Quori were trying to peacefully escape before the giants started a war. But the section on it has a bunch of open ended questions, like: Is she telling the truth, or playing games of her own?
Shira can speak Quori, can let a warforged dream by opening a way to Dal Quor, and will become inactive as it is then caught up in the plane, so Shira is most likely an actual Quori. Whether the docents and warforged were designed for that (and whether those Quori were good aligned) is the open ended part.

I personally like the idea of it being accurate and I think the non-canon Dreaming Dark novels goes with part of that interpretation.

Hmm...so Xulo can't be a dark Quori spirit trapped in a pseudo docent, because at the time of the Giant-Quori war, the dark Quori didn't exist yet?

[Dragolord]

Hmm...so Xulo can't be a dark Quori spirit trapped in a pseudo docent, because at the time of the Giant-Quori war, the dark Quori didn't exist yet?

The modern ones didn't. While we don't know a great deal about the circumstances of the Quori invasion, they probably weren't doing it because they were nice people.

[exelsisxax]

The modern ones didn't. While we don't know a great deal about the circumstances of the Quori invasion, they probably weren't doing it because they were nice people.

It is unknown who the aggressors in the conflict were. The quori may have been engaged in a militaristic land-grab, or they might have been trying to escape from a burning building while the giants butchered them. We only know that by the end both sides were all aboard the genocide express.

[Dragolord]

[W]e don't know a great deal about the circumstances [of the Quori-Giant whatever-it-was].


It is unknown who the aggressors in the conflict were. The quori may have been engaged in a militaristic land-grab, or they might have been trying to escape from a burning building while the giants butchered them. We only know that by the end both sides were all aboard the genocide express.

That is essentially what I meant. I was simply using the name the chap above is likely most familiar with. You should note, though, that it's entirely possible that they were attempting to save themselves from some horror by brutally destroying and replacing giant civilisation. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Afgncaap5]

One rarely explored possibility for Xulo is that it might actually be something new. While I'm sure the Quori were at some point an inspiration for Xulo's creation, I could also see one of the ancient magicians of the giant empire saying "Say now, what if... and bear with me here... what if magic items could become aware?"

Or alternatively, what if Xulo was an accidental invention? A giant trying to figure out how to bind elementals, so that elemental spirits could more easily "give life" to other magic items by imparting their elemental nature. We know that gnomish elemental binding could have been stolen from the Sulatar, who in turn apparently know it because of giants.

I mean, the giants seem to have had a hand in the development of the technologies that led to modern elemental binding, they're the ones who taught the elves magic (secrets which the elves used to not only engineer their own escape but to create the Undying Court), and their different cultures range from giving "lost atlantean tech" vibes to "holy secrets of fire held by the Drow" vibes to "powers that the Quori feared". Despite their current state, the ancient giants were *amazing* at magic. Xulo could've been about anything; while it's almost certain (in my mind, anyway) that Xulo is tied to the Quori somehow, I also sorta want him to just be something new or unexplained through other bits of lore.

[Clistenes]

They did, in the Eberron Campaign Setting; and while the GP cost of some of the items are extravagantly low (Altar of Resurrection, 13k GP) for example, they all require a caster level to create

That's not what I am speaking about. I think Keith Baker implied that Dragonmarked Houses have ways around that and can create those Dragonmark items without need of high level magic (most of the canon common Dragonmarked items are at least CL 5th, and in Eberron even CL 5th is quite high... the typical Cannith Magewright is level 3, and their job is to create those magic items!).

You mention an Altar of Resurrection, which can be crafted using regular rules if you have caster level 13th... but the freaking Lord of Blades is CR 12 only!

[fallensavior]

One rarely explored possibility for Xulo is that it might actually be something new. While I'm sure the Quori were at some point an inspiration for Xulo's creation, I could also see one of the ancient magicians of the giant empire saying "Say now, what if... and bear with me here... what if magic items could become aware?"

Or alternatively, what if Xulo was an accidental invention? A giant trying to figure out how to bind elementals, so that elemental spirits could more easily "give life" to other magic items by imparting their elemental nature. We know that gnomish elemental binding could have been stolen from the Sulatar, who in turn apparently know it because of giants.

I mean, the giants seem to have had a hand in the development of the technologies that led to modern elemental binding, they're the ones who taught the elves magic (secrets which the elves used to not only engineer their own escape but to create the Undying Court), and their different cultures range from giving "lost atlantean tech" vibes to "holy secrets of fire held by the Drow" vibes to "powers that the Quori feared". Despite their current state, the ancient giants were *amazing* at magic. Xulo could've been about anything; while it's almost certain (in my mind, anyway) that Xulo is tied to the Quori somehow, I also sorta want him to just be something new or unexplained through other bits of lore.

I'm thinking (for my game) I'm going to go with Xulo and Xulo's prototype creation forge as the Giants' unfinished/aborted attempt to reverse engineer what the Quori were doing with their Quorforged+docent tech. It will turn out that Xulo is a (unwillingly) bound Quori spirit forced to work on this project and has simply gone insane in the intervening millennia. This implies that Cannith unknowingly fused the Quorforged and Giantish prototype branches of the tech when they invented the modern Warforged.

[Afgncaap5]

What are the limits of Ghallanda's Legally Protected Hospitality?

I'd just been glancing through the 4e ECG, and specifically looked at the portion on House Ghallanda because I've got some players in an unincorporated village in the eastern part of the blade desert that was more or less founded by Houses Vadalis and Ghallanda (and a number of "camp followers"). The ECG noted that they often build their outposts and taverns beyond the traditional limits of civilization (allegedly led by prophetic inclination about where business will someday be good), and that seemed good to me... but then I noticed a section on Ghallanda Hall in Sharn.

Specifically, it pointed out that Ghallanda Hall allegedly has more outlaws, traitors, scoundrels, mysterious strangers, and persons of interest per square foot than anywhere else in Khorvaire (and that this rumor just might be accurate). Furthmore, it describes all the many, many, many spy, police, and criminal agencies who would like to extricate those people from Ghallanda Hall, but between the legalities of the Treaty of Thronehold protecting them and Ghallanda's surprisingly well-trained veteran guards giving more immediate protection, it's just not possible to remove most of these fugitives from hospitality.

Intrigued, I glanced around and noted at the start of the section on Ghallanda that it says that all of the enclaves of Ghallanda are outside the legal reach of any nation. So, I guess the question is... well, just how far does this go?

I suppose it might be better rephrased as "what constitutes an enclave." I imagine if you're in the biggest bar in Fairhaven or in Ghallanda Hall or in a VIP suite in Gatherhold you're probably immune from any warrants or legally sanctioned arrests. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that a known murderer couldn't just run into the nearest Golden Dragon, grab a flagon of Electric Bluebeer and shout "Sanctuary! Sanctuary! Sanctuary!" to let the police know that he was, in fact, suddenly a client and protected.

Ghallanda itself is a factor, of course; if you and they both know that their newest patron is The Mudstreet Mangler then it might be amazing PR for them to withhold hospitality and give the criminal over as a gift to the Sharn Watch. But still... I'm curious to know if there's anything listed about how ironclad this legal escape is, and how easy it is to attain.

[Falontani]

I do not know any of the RAW or official lore behind this; however this practice seems to have come from a common theme in fantasy. While indeed someone that asks for sanctuary is indeed allowed sanctuary if someone wished to speak to the person then it was up to the tavern keeper whether the other person was allowed to come in. No blood could be shed nor could the person in sanctuary be forced outside, but the patron requesting sanctuary was protected. Usually by either the tavern itself (from brawlers and other miscreants) or from the reputation of the owner of the tavern (in this case Ghallanda.)

The tavern owner always has choice of whether they give sanctuary or not. So while Ghallanda Hall may be a safe haven for all of sharn's thugs, that doesn't mean that the tavern owner is being forced to grant sanctuary.

So House Ghallanda will offer sanctuary and give sanctuary to any that deserve it, however if say a Deneith Warden requests access to someone given sanctuary then house ghallanda will most likely oblige. However if some random police officer from Sharn not at all connected asked for access he'd probably be laughed off.

Finally the person offered sanctuary is still responsible for paying for room/board and must abide by all the rules of the tavern in question else their sanctuary will quickly be revoked.

[exelsisxax]

Can anyone infodump me on Medusa? I know they've basically got an independent city-state within Droaam and a few interesting bits from Baker's blog(petrifying your wounded and elderly as a life-saving measure because it's reversible), but not much else. I don't even know if there are male medusa, or distinctly dimorphic maedar or if there are any males at all. Does cazhaak draal have an economy that makes sense? Does anyone know why that group came out of khyber, or became a group in the first place? What are all the other medusa doing, and what is their society - if they have one - about?

[Omnificer]

Can anyone infodump me on Medusa? I know they've basically got an independent city-state within Droaam and a few interesting bits from Baker's blog(petrifying your wounded and elderly as a life-saving measure because it's reversible), but not much else. I don't even know if there are male medusa, or distinctly dimorphic maedar or if there are any males at all. Does cazhaak draal have an economy that makes sense? Does anyone know why that group came out of khyber, or became a group in the first place? What are all the other medusa doing, and what is their society - if they have one - about?

I assume you've read this info on Medusa, but you didn't mention it, so I'll link it anyways :The Medusas of Droaam Dragonshard (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060905a)

I think the info in the Dragonshard paints a compelling picture of their economy. Cazhaak Draal has a ton of treasure they can use, they provide mercenary forces, and they provide architecture services for the construction of the Droaam capital. Medusa with class levels in the city are often Sorcerers, rogues, or experts, which means they can provide magical and skilled services. The Medusas involved with Daask would also have a cut of the petrification abductions they perform.

As far as male Medusa, I don't think Eberron goes into the ecology of Medusa almost at all which I guess would default it to 3.5 D&D. The maedar you mentioned were in a Dragon Magazine and I think were converted to 3.5. The Dragon Magazine that discusses the Maedar also mentions that most Medusa mate with male humans. Medusa and human make a clutch of 2 to 6 medusa eggs. Maedar and Medusa makes 2 to 6 eggs that hatch into infant humans who usually don't survive meeting their mother, with a negligible amount being born Maedar. Pathfinder expands it a bit to them mating with anything that can mate with a human and the child is full Medusa.

As far as why they left Khyber, why they banded together, and what other Medusa in the world are doing, I don't think that's covered.

[Sir_Chivalry]

In a setting of amazing characters, I'd have to say that the medusa are easily one of the coolest things Keith's contributed to looking at things differently in DnD

[exelsisxax]

I assume you've read this info on Medusa, but you didn't mention it, so I'll link it anyways :The Medusas of Droaam Dragonshard (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060905a)

I think the info in the Dragonshard paints a compelling picture of their economy. Cazhaak Draal has a ton of treasure they can use, they provide mercenary forces, and they provide architecture services for the construction of the Droaam capital. Medusa with class levels in the city are often Sorcerers, rogues, or experts, which means they can provide magical and skilled services. The Medusas involved with Daask would also have a cut of the petrification abductions they perform.

As far as male Medusa, I don't think Eberron goes into the ecology of Medusa almost at all which I guess would default it to 3.5 D&D. The maedar you mentioned were in a Dragon Magazine and I think were converted to 3.5. The Dragon Magazine that discusses the Maedar also mentions that most Medusa mate with male humans. Medusa and human make a clutch of 2 to 6 medusa eggs. Maedar and Medusa makes 2 to 6 eggs that hatch into infant humans who usually don't survive meeting their mother, with a negligible amount being born Maedar. Pathfinder expands it a bit to them mating with anything that can mate with a human and the child is full Medusa.

As far as why they left Khyber, why they banded together, and what other Medusa in the world are doing, I don't think that's covered.

Petrification abductions? Mind elaborating?

There's no way Medusa work like that in Eberron - cazhaak dral doesn't export human babies or maedar, and "need to bang humans" seems like it would be particularly noteworthy somewhere in the lore. How have medusa in khyber getting along all these centuries without humans anyway?


In a setting of amazing characters, I'd have to say that the medusa are easily one of the coolest things Keith's contributed to looking at things differently in DnD

Damn straight.

[InterstellarPro]

In Sharn: City of Towers, I believe there is a male medusa working for the Daask, which seems to imply that male medusas do exist.

[exelsisxax]

In Sharn: City of Towers, I believe there is a male medusa working for the Daask, which seems to imply that male medusas do exist.

I'll check that out. Male medusa seems like they're a single undifferentiated species rather than the weird thing with maedar.

[Omnificer]

Petrification abductions? Mind elaborating?
I thought I had read that Daask will kindap people for ransom and use Medusa enforcers to petrify them. They'd break a piece off and send it along with the ransom demand, but I'm having trouble finding that so now I'm not sure.

Edit: Found it, Dungeon Magazine 194. It's called the Stone Loan. Daask loan sharks take family members as collateral and have Medusa enforcers petrify them. They send a piece back with each missed payment. They auction off unclaimed victims in Droaam.



There's no way Medusa work like that in Eberron - cazhaak dral doesn't export human babies or maedar, and "need to bang humans" seems like it would be particularly noteworthy somewhere in the lore. How have medusa in khyber getting along all these centuries without humans anyway?

My assumption was that Medusas were very long lived and had a very static population, but I checked the Sharn book after seeing InterstellarPro's comment and there are indeed multiple male Medusa NPCs. One is Harash who is the second in command of Daask in Sharn. Another is Gasslak who keeps order in Malleon's Gate.

Looking it up in the ECS book a male medusa named Carash is the ambassador to the Great Crag so their existence is pretty consistent and not the result of a typo.

[Zombimode]

In Sharn: City of Towers, I believe there is a male medusa working for the Daask, which seems to imply that male medusas do exist.

Yeah, as per Sharn: City of Towers, Medusae come in two sexes. Medusae are not a mythological species in Eberron.