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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Warlock Necromancy (New Pact Boon and Invocations for undead mastery)



Giegue
2018-01-22, 05:36 PM
https://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/xathrid-necromancer-730x280.png


I always felt it odd that Warlocks, as the "Dark Magic" class where piss poor Necromancers. Granted, their chassis is really hard to get a hoard-master style character working off of, but I have tried to do it none the less. However, rather than make the hoard-lock into a patron, I felt it more fitting to make it into invocations and a pact boon since I can see undead of multible patrons being good at raising the dead. (A fiend patron is fitting for a necromancer who serves Orcus, while the Undying fits for obvious reasons. I could even see a GOO warlock running with these, and since they already get a bit of Necromancy already it also seems fitting for a Hexblade)

Now, all these are VERY rough, so any and all help with them would be most appreciated, especially when it comes to making them balanced, paticularly against the Necromancer wizard. The idea behind them is the Warlock Necromancer should be slightly better at minions than the wizard one, due to how limited a warlock is as a caster as compared to a wizard and the fact that your spending almost all your invocations and your pact boon to be good at it. So, yes, you should be better at it than a wizard who gets to be good virtually for free and has better casting then you'll ever hope to. However, it should not be so strong that it can never see play/will be flat out banned at most tables due to being too OP, and thats where you come in. Any and all balance help with these would be very much appreciated!

While any warlock who wants to can specalize in the necromantic arts, some are so obsessed with it that the pact boon bestowed upon them reflects their dark desire to control the undead. The following Pact Boon is added to those that a Warlock can select from at 3rd level:

Pact of the Thrall

Once per-long rest, you can raise a single skeleton with the following benefits as a bonus action:

Its hit points (and hit point maximum) equal 2 x your proficiency bonus d8 + your Warlock level.
It adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
You can command skeletons you create this way as if they where created by an Animate Dead spell cast by you, and they remain reanimated for 24 hours, or until you finish a long rest (whichever comes first) Starting at 4th level, you can raise a number of skeletons equal to your proficiency bonus when you use this feature instead. However, when you do this, they gain none of the additional benefits this feature grants normally. (So their hit points are not increased and they do not recieve a damage bonus).

While Necromancer wizards may study the undead, Warlocks are their true masters. Warlocks who serve vile patrons with sway over the undead, such as Orcus (represented by the fiend patron) or powerful archliches (represented by the undying patron) often are gifted with powers of undead reanimation that match or in some cases even surpass that of necromancy specialist wizards and Oathbreaker paladins, wielding their patron's authority over the walking dead. Add the following invocations to the list of Invocations Warlocks can choose from.

Dominate the Dead
Prerequisites: Pact of the Thrall, 3rd level
Benefits: As an action, you target one undead you can see within 30ft and invoke your patron’s authority over it. It must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, it must obey your commands for the next 24 hours, or until you use this Invocation again. Undead who's CR are equal to or greater than your Warlock level are immune to this Invocation. Once you use this invocation, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

The Dead Walk
Prerequisites: Pact of the Thrall, 5th level
Benefits: You can use your warlock spell slots to cast Animate Dead once per long rest. When you cast Animate Dead this way, it can target 1 additional corpse or bone pile and create 1 additional skeleton or zombie. Additionally, undead you create with Warlock spells and Mystic Arcanum add your Warlock level to their hit point maximums and use your proficiency bonus in place of their own on weapon attack rolls. Also, their weapon attacks count as magical.

Undead Mastery

Prerequisites: The Dead Walk, 7th level
Benefits: Once after each long rest, you can reassert control over undead created by a single Animate Dead spell you cast using a Warlock spell slot without re-casting that spell. (So you will never re-assert control of the undead created by more than one Animate Dead spell this way.) You can still reassert control over any undead beyond this limit by re-casting the spells that created them as normal.

Ghoulcaller
Prerequisites: Pact of the Thrall, 11th level
Benefits: You can use your mystic arcanum to cast undead creation spells. You can expend a mystic arcanum of at least 6th level to cast Create Undead at the level of the expended mystic arcanum. (when you do this, the you do not also cast the mystic arcanum you expended.) You can also cast Create Undead this way to reassert control over undead created by Create Undead spells you cast in this way. (Including ones cast at levels higher than 6th.)

Llama513
2018-01-23, 09:51 AM
The Pact is fine

I'm not sure about the doubling speed on the undead thrall, but then again it is at 9th level and just the thrall, so I think it should work fine.

Dominate the Dead needs to be specified either as once per short rest or once per long rest, look at the oathbreaker paladin for what this reset is

The dead Walk needs to be changed to allowing you to spend a warlock slot to cast animate dead, you can keep the benefits

Undead Mastery is far to powerful, I would make it so you can reassert your control of undead from a single casting of a animate dead of your warlock slot level, or make it equal to half your level plus your charisma modifier

Ghoul Caller and Nightmarish Hoard are fine, in fact I might suggest making Nightmarish Hoard available earlier but I'd have to look back at Warlock to say when exactly

AureusFulgens
2018-01-23, 10:49 AM
While any warlock who wants to can specalize in the necromantic arts, some are so obsessed with it that the pact boon bestowed upon them reflects their dark desire to control the undead. The following Pact Boon is added to those that a Warlock can select from at 3rd level:

Pact of the Thrall
You can permanently raise an undead to serve as your personal thrall. With 8 hours of work and the expenditure of ritual materials worth 50gp, you call forth an undead to serve you. This can be any corporeal undead of a CR no higher than 1/4. Your undead thrall cannot create spawn or other undead, and can be commanded as-if it was created by an Animate Dead spell you cast. If your undead thrall is ever slain, your bond to it allows you to return it to life. This requires 8 hours of work and ritual components worth 25gp. You can do this even if you do not possess any part of its body, at which point it is summoned in an unoccupied space adjacent to you of your choice. You can only control a single undead thrall at any given time, and if you try to raise one above this limit or return to life a past thrall while you have one currently under your control, you lose control of one of those thralls and it becomes hostile towards you.

Additionally, your undead thrall's bond to you is such that it grows in power as you do. The undead loses its multiattack action if it has one normally. It has 3 hit dice instead of its normal hit die total, and uses your proficiency bonus in place of its own for all purposes. Your thrall gains proficiency with two skills of your choice and with all saving throws. It also adds your proficiency bonus to its armor class and damage rolls. As you level, your undead thrall also becomes stronger. At each Warlock level after 3rd, it gains 1 additional hit die. Additionally, at each Warlock level that you gain an Ability Score Improvement, your thrall's ability scores also improve' you can increase one of its ability scores by 2, or two of them by 1, to a maximum of 20.


This seems like a bit much to me. I think the two things that bother me the most are the AC and Hit Dice bonuses: AC += proficiency and 1 HD/level create a VERY tough undead minion, probably about as tough as you are yourself if not more so. Which... mind you, as a Paladin I frequently find it frustrating how squishy my mount is, so maybe that's not bad, but this seems like too far in the other direction. Similarly, proficiency in all saving throws is a lot. Maybe pick two (or let the player pick two).

I really like the skill proficiency, though. The idea of having an undead minion who's specifically good at what you need it to be good at is nice. (Is it bad that my first thought when I read Pact of the Thrall was "now I can have a zombie butler"?) The ASI's are also fine, especially since low-level undead have some fairly unimpressive stats.

There's a lack of good comparisons in the PHB, since the Beastmaster Ranger is generally acknowledged to be on the weak side and I find the paladin's mount a little disappointing. So I can't be sure of this assessment.

I don't have any thoughts quite as strong on the invocations, so I'll defer to Llama513. I'd like to second his assessment of Undead Mastery, though. Part of playing an undead horde is the risk of them running amok if you're not careful, and the effort that goes into "being careful". They wouldn't be Evil to create if it was easy to make sure they didn't go crazy.

I'd also throw in a suggestion for the Nightmarish Horde invocation level. PC's normally get automatic magical weapon attacks around 6th level (see the Moon Druid and the Monk in particular), so you don't want it any earlier than that. I'd be inclined to say 9th level, though that might be a bit early - your mileage may vary. There are not really any level issues that I can think of with the proficiency lending.

Final thought: A "horde" of evil minions is spelled differently than a dragon's "hoard" of treasure.

Hope this helps!
Aureus

Llama513
2018-01-23, 11:27 AM
This seems like a bit much to me. I think the two things that bother me the most are the AC and Hit Dice bonuses: AC += proficiency and 1 HD/level create a VERY tough undead minion, probably about as tough as you are yourself if not more so. Which... mind you, as a Paladin I frequently find it frustrating how squishy my mount is, so maybe that's not bad, but this seems like too far in the other direction. Similarly, proficiency in all saving throws is a lot. Maybe pick two (or let the player pick two).

I really like the skill proficiency, though. The idea of having an undead minion who's specifically good at what you need it to be good at is nice. (Is it bad that my first thought when I read Pact of the Thrall was "now I can have a zombie butler"?) The ASI's are also fine, especially since low-level undead have some fairly unimpressive stats.

There's a lack of good comparisons in the PHB, since the Beastmaster Ranger is generally acknowledged to be on the weak side and I find the paladin's mount a little disappointing. So I can't be sure of this assessment.

I don't have any thoughts quite as strong on the invocations, so I'll defer to Llama513. I'd like to second his assessment of Undead Mastery, though. Part of playing an undead horde is the risk of them running amok if you're not careful, and the effort that goes into "being careful". They wouldn't be Evil to create if it was easy to make sure they didn't go crazy.

I'd also throw in a suggestion for the Nightmarish Horde invocation level. PC's normally get automatic magical weapon attacks around 6th level (see the Moon Druid and the Monk in particular), so you don't want it any earlier than that. I'd be inclined to say 9th level, though that might be a bit early - your mileage may vary. There are not really any level issues that I can think of with the proficiency lending.

Final thought: A "horde" of evil minions is spelled differently than a dragon's "hoard" of treasure.

Hope this helps!
Aureus

The undead minion scaling is based around the Revised Ranger Beast master

Giegue
2018-01-23, 05:27 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions, I updated the OP with the changes you suggested, BTW. If anything else seems out of place please let me know! Also moved Nightmarish Hoard down to 8th level, BTW. If thats too low please let me know.

Llama513
2018-01-23, 05:52 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions, I updated the OP with the changes you suggested, BTW. If anything else seems out of place please let me know! Also moved Nightmarish Hoard down to 8th level, BTW. If thats too low please let me know.

I do have a suggestion, if worry still remains about the strength of the undead minion, and that is to use the following based on what I have done in my necromancer class

as a bonus action you are able to raise a skeleton with the following benefits:

Its hit points are equal to 2*proficiency modifier d8 + your warlock level
It adds your proficiency modifier to its damage rolls

The undead lasts for 24 hours or until you use this ability again.

You can use this ability once per Long rest.

Giegue
2018-01-23, 06:00 PM
That could work, thanks. If thats the case, augment thrall seems pointless, since its largely too weak a pet to make the bonuses from it matter.

EDIT: Figured out a way to make it all work; I just made all the undead invocations into one big invocation chain that requires Pact of the Thrall, and uses your changes to the minion. Thanks again for the help!

EDIT 2: fixed the progression on the invocations to make it better line up with when you get new invocations. Also makes progression less wonky.

Llama513
2018-01-24, 02:52 PM
That could work, thanks. If thats the case, augment thrall seems pointless, since its largely too weak a pet to make the bonuses from it matter.

EDIT: Figured out a way to make it all work; I just made all the undead invocations into one big invocation chain that requires Pact of the Thrall, and uses your changes to the minion. Thanks again for the help!

EDIT 2: fixed the progression on the invocations to make it better line up with when you get new invocations. Also makes progression less wonky.

I like what you have done, however I wouldn't make it a progression,as that goes against what 5e does, I'd require the path of the thrall and levels, but beyond that I wouldn't set it as a chain as the invocations chains that exist don't go nearly that long for those few that exist and for the most part they are avoided as they go against the flexibility that 5e shoots for

Flashy
2018-01-24, 03:39 PM
I like what you have done, however I wouldn't make it a progression,as that goes against what 5e does, I'd require the path of the thrall and levels, but beyond that I wouldn't set it as a chain as the invocations chains that exist don't go nearly that long for those few that exist and for the most part they are avoided as they go against the flexibility that 5e shoots for

I entirely agree with this. Among other things, warlocks don’t get new invocations between 9th and 12th level, so if they want to take Ghoulcaller as soon as it becomes available they have to swap out the single invocation they have that isn’t already locked into this chain.

Warlocks who want to pursue this archetype heavily won’t really have the option of choosing unrelated invocations until 15th level. Everyone is too likely to take Agonizing Blast and Dominate Dead at the start and then chase the invocation chain through to 12th level.

Giegue
2018-01-24, 05:16 PM
Thanks for all the feedback. I edded the OP with your suggestions, BTW. The only exception is Undead Mastery, which has The Dead Walk as a prerequisite instead of Undead Thralls because without the Dead Walk that invocation literally does nothing, and 5e likes to trim back on "trap" options, which taking Undead Mastery without The Dead Walk would be.

Llama513
2018-01-24, 05:52 PM
Thanks for all the feedback. I edded the OP with your suggestions, BTW. The only exception is Undead Mastery, which has The Dead Walk as a prerequisite instead of Undead Thralls because without the Dead Walk that invocation literally does nothing, and 5e likes to trim back on "trap" options, which taking Undead Mastery without The Dead Walk would be.

That looks much better, I feel really good about implementing these for the Sith Inquisitor now, and I think that they work really well for warlocks in normal Dnd as well

Crisis21
2018-02-05, 11:50 AM
I really like this and want to make a villain NPC with it. You should make it look all official and stuff using something like http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/