Is it worth the trade off?

[Kahlendrrari]

So being the terribly unimaginative person that I am, I came across a character concept while reading the most recent of Kaveman26's campaign logs. The character of little mountain, for those who are also reading it, an (Un) monk 3/ stonelord paladin 5. So the concept is simple, since the setting is in a dark sun-esq world, the character doesn't have to rely on manufactured weapons, and due to the powers granted by stonelord, get some pretty good offensinve/defensive benefits. This is where my lack of imagination comes in and I steal the concept....

The theoretical character I want to build would be a deurgar grey disciple (somehow porting the archetype over to the unchained monk)/ stonelord. Where the grey disciple racial archetype trades some monk abilities away for ki abilities that let the deurgar use ki to mimic their SLAs, (being able to use the 1/day abilities more often) and would then be backed up by stonelord's other abilities to augment offense/defense.

If the Stonelord were to only receive the stonestrike, heartstone, stone blood, and defensive stance abilities, and maybe the stone servant ability (without the celestial template and the LG alignment) but still have to remain a lawful alignment, would you all as the playground deem the class still balanced enough? Would getting rid of the lay on hands, the divine health, the paladin's auras, detect evil, the mercy ability, the earth channel ability, and possibly the stone servant ability, be enough of a trade off for you guys to be able to not have to be on the "good" side of the alignment table, or have to deal with the paladin's code of conduct. I know this would be up to the DM in this instance as rule 0 > everything, but just trying to get the general consensus.

[vasilidor]

the real trick to making this work is having high stats. you are going to need a high wisdom, and a high physical attributes, of at least 16 in each or higher to make this work. as you still get paladin spells, you may also want to have a 12 charisma. question, how high of a level is this game going to get? to be honest the grey disciple actually looks lackluster in comparison to the unchained monk, if only because you already get many of those abilities as racial powers, but I could see allowing some of the abilities therein as Key powers.

[grarrrg]

(Un) monk 3/ stonelord paladin 5
..
Where the grey disciple racial archetype trades some monk abilities away for ki abilities that let the deurgar use ki to mimic their SLAs, (being able to use the 1/day abilities more often) and would then be backed up by stonelord's other abilities to augment offense/defense.

Ideally (assuming your changes get approved) what's your build look like after level 8? Because Gray Disciple doesn't 'kick in' until level 4 at the earliest. And Stonelord 5 only gets a minor boost to Stonestrike and the Elemental companion, who is going to fall behind pretty quickly without more Paladin levels.

[Kahlendrrari]

The character wouldn’t need CHA, as the stone lord archetype gives up spellcasting for one of the abilities that it grants. I realize that build is going to be MAD, as most monk build generally are. CHA is a dump stat, and as the deurgar has a -4 to CHA, spell casting would be out the window anyways. I’m okay with not having lay on hands and the associated earth channeling abilities that the stonelord grants as well. Deurgar still get the +2 Con and Wis dwarves get. With most of the AC gained for the character coming from the monk’s Wis to AC, the Monk AC bonus, the stonelord’s natural armor bonus from the heartstone ability, as well as DR/adamantine = to 1/2 stonelord levels. Deurgar also have a racial feat that grants them a +2 to natural armor whenever they have an actual NA bonus. The monk abilities of the Grey Disciple allow the character to use the invisibility and enlarge person SLAs more often for the cost of 1 Ki per use. Along with some other feats open to deurgar that grant a 1/day SLA to use the ironskin spell, which can then be buffed yet again with another feat granting extra uses of the deurgar’s SLA equal to how many it has (in this case a total of +3/day in any combination of uses for the racial SLAs) the defensive stance ability from stonelord while not the greatest of abilities, adds a stackable +2 dodge bonus and little bit of survivabilty. In a previous thread I asked about using the archetype with the unchained monk with the trade off of giving up the ki powers at the associated level for those granted by the archetype. As I said before a lot of this is going to be up to DM’s discression, but I was trying to see what the masses thought of these changes before bringing it up to the DM, if the general consensus was negative then I wouldn’t bother as the stonelord archetype offers some abilities that I want, and some that I don’t. I’m willing to trade those that I don’t want for the fiat of not having to be “good” in alignment, but I still planned on the character holding to the lawful requirements of the monk.

[Kahlendrrari]

Ideally (assuming your changes get approved) what's your build look like after level 8? Because Gray Disciple doesn't 'kick in' until level 4 at the earliest. And Stonelord 5 only gets a minor boost to Stonestrike and the Elemental companion, who is going to fall behind pretty quickly without more Paladin levels.

as I have been planning the build, right now I have it currently at monk 6/stonelord the rest of the way. I’m okay with giving up the elemental, but if I could keep it, it’s not the current lynchpin of the build, just a small bonus.

[Kahlendrrari]

This is what I kind of had in mind as a basic run down of the character. 25 pt buy, no gear (as of yet), and still thinking on which feats to take.

Male Duergar Grey Disciple (Un) Monk 6 || Stonelord Paladin 6
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Initiative: +3; Senses: Darkvision 120 ft.; Perception: +19
__________________________________________________ ___________________
DEFENSE
Armor Class: 21; Flat-Footed: 18; Touch: 19
(+0 armor, +3 Dex, +2 Monk, +2 natural, +4 Wis)
HP: 130; 6d10 + 6d10 + 60 (12 HD); DR: 3/adamantine
Fort: +14 Ref: +13; Will: +8; +2 racial bonus vs spells and spell-like abilities
Immune: Disease, Paralysis, Phantasms, Poison
__________________________________________________ ___________________
OFFENSE
Speed: 40 ft.
Melee: unarmed +14 (1d10 + 2)
Face/Reach: 5ft. by 5ft. / 5ft.
Special Attacks: Defensive Stance, Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike (magic), Stonestrike, Stunning Fist
Spell Like Abilities: 1/day – enlarge person, invisibility, ironskin; *Plus 3 more uses in any combination
Ki Pool: 9; Oath of Truth, Oath of Silence
__________________________________________________ ____________________
STATISTICS
STR: 14, DEX: 16, CON: 18, INT: 8, WIS: 19, CHA: 4
Base Attack: +12; CMB: +14; CMD: 27
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Giant Steps, Grey Dwarf Magic, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Innate Flexibility, Toughness, Tough As Iron
Skills: Acrobatics +9, Climb +8, Intimidate +3, Perception +19, Stealth +9
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Undercommon
Special Qualities: Evasion, Fade From Sight, Fast Movement, Grey Heart, Heartstone, Ki Pool, Purity of Body, Stoneblood, Stone Servant
Possessions: 108,000 - gp

1. Monk 1: Flurry of Blows (Bonus Attack), Stunning Fist
Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes; Bonus Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike; Feat: Toughness
Skills: Acrobatics +1, Climb +1, Perception +1
Favored Class Bonus: Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0).

2. Monk 2: Evasion
Bonus Feat: Improved Grapple
Skills: Intimidate +1, Perception +1, Stealth +1
Favored Class Bonus: Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0).

3. Monk 3: Fast Movement, Ki Pool, Ki Strike (magic)
Feat: Grey Dwarf Magic (Ironskinned);
Skills: Acrobatics +1, Climb +1, Perception +1
Favored Class Bonus: Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0).

4. Monk 4: +1 DEX; Fade From Sight
Skills: Intimidate +1, Perception +1, Stealth +1
Favored Class Bonus: Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0).

5. Monk 5: Purity of Body, Style Strike (1/round)
Feat: Innate Flexibility
Skills: Acrobatics +1, Climb +1, Perception +1
Favored Class Bonus: Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0).

6. Monk 6: Grey Heart
Skills: Intimidate +1, Perception +1, Stealth +1
Favored Class Bonus: Reduce the Hardness of any object made of clay, stone, or metal by 1 whenever the object is struck by the monk’s unarmed strike (minimum of 0).

7. Paladin 1: Stonestrike
Feat: Giant Steps
Skills: Perception +1

8. Paladin 2: +1 CON; Heartstone (+1 Natural Armor; DR/ adamantine = 1/2 paladin level)
Skills: Perception +1

9. Paladin 3: Stoneblood (25% chance to ignore critical hit or precision damage)
Feat: Tough as Iron
Skills: Perception +1

10. Paladin 4: Defensive Stance
Skills: Perception +1

11. Paladin 5: Stone Servant
Feat: XXX
Skills: Perception +1

12. Paladin 6 : +1 WIS; Heartstone (+2 Natural Armor)
Skills: Perception +1