PDA

View Full Version : Roleplaying PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER - costly spell components and weird logistics



Spore
2018-01-23, 07:28 AM
The only true stereotypical D&D class left to be played by me missing is the Wizard. I even had a sorcerer - if shortly and built more towards gish than anything. This thread will focus more on D&D but examples of my problem is found in other games too.

Magic users are very often particularly convoluted.

Take a standard wizard. They are supposed to be able to solve any problem thrown at them. No more, they should realistically warp any gaming world they are in around their incredible powers. And then there comes the big BUT (wearing probably a tiny butt because wizards are scrawny).

You need various casting times (up to 24 hours), ritual items (don't even START trying to negotiate with a demon without at least a token of interest), material components (want to cast scrying without a mirror or water surface? too bad) and arcane foci (you lost your staff, pathfinder wizard? Well, roll or fail). You need to learn the spell from somewhere else or research the spells on your own with downtime rules (taking you a TAD out of the adventuring).

There is a reason the average wizard throws a lightning bolt or fireball against any problem. If it doesn't vanish he starts to plan. But why? Why bog down magic for wizards especially? Clerics and druids seem to get all spells on their list. A spell is in a book that got released during your campaign? Nice, you got these spells too, since your DM approved content of that particular book. The wizard needs to pick up a scroll of these spells. If there is not Adventurer Mart (TM) then too bad. Sorcerers can often go without material components, but it cramps my style incredibly having to handle bat guano for a simple fireball even if it has not rules implication short of a semi-magical bag of random items.

The stereotypical wizard seeks power or does his magical researches because of curiosity. The state of ultimate power described in optimization forum threads mostly describes the result but not the actual process of gaining power. Most of these things is RPing your character and managing your downtime. The cleric has to pray, the druid usually meditates but that is it. After prepping his spells for the day, the wizard has to hurry to buy ingredients, shop for scrolls, or hit the books to copy spells. There is rarely opportunity (or reason) to RP with the group at all. Time is so much better used researching a quintillion spells for every eventuality. Because that is what the wizard is. A swiss army knife with the right tool for the job. Only that it's tools are customizable and you start off with a cork screw and a knife and nothing else. It's like the D&D class version of a game with a terrible base game and a huge amount of DLCs. And no, the GOTY-version is never coming out.

Yes, a well played wizard is somewhat competent. But now we come to the real life effort put into this. I never played a wizard, like stated above. I however played an Pathfinder Alchemist, which is translated to our thread, a Wizard "Light". I put Cha 8 (with Tiefling penalty Cha 6) and purely focussed on the research side. And we had a library with any 1st or 2nd level arcane spell available otherwise the character would have suffered so much. In a greater scope everyone is reliant on DM fiat. But to be just able to play your class normally having to ask your DM for handouts is not right. Yes, wizards get free spells per level up (I think 3.0 didn't do that, and certainly AD&D did not) but many arcane spells are so narrow in scope that this simply is not enough. I won't start on sorcerers because they suffer too. Only each edition plays with them differently, and some give them tools to deal with everyday combat situations. A wizard however is ultimatively always reduced to their spells. Yes, 5e and their powerful at will cantrips to mend that situation somewhat. But the base premise is still there. Shell out money or never learn any arcane spell short of leveling up, ever.

What do you think? Is the Wizard's spell grind acceptable from a design perspective? Is forcing them to shell out money for spells on par with equipping the fighter with armor and (a) weapon(s)?

Anonymouswizard
2018-01-23, 08:34 AM
IIRC, the wizard's spell grind is a consequence of a) them being the original caster class, and b) them having the largest spell list of all casters.

Now, as an aside, the idea of ultimate cosmic power, just file planning permission, is a classic from both mythology and literature. It's also something that can work really well in gaming, as long as nobody specialises in magic to the exclusion of all else and you're using a decent system for ritual magic (which are really hard to build). The D&D wizard is a really bad way to go about it in a fun way to play, as you'll either spend a long time without a suitable spell then get enough so that they can solve everything.

It's a specific way to have a class, on practice of wizards aren't that uncommon or of you fight wizardly foes then with a bit of favour trading, stealth, or whatever and you should be able to get a decent spell list compared to clerics or druids. I've also seen people give clerics and druids spell books, so making wizards full list casters is certainly a feasible house rule (if a bit of a power multiplier, as it's the most versatile list in the game).

In my next fantasy game I'm planning to use Lamentations of the Flame Princess with casters getting one slot per level, and more powerful spells have longer casting times (based mostly on old spell level). Do you want to spend six hours casting disintegrate when you can still use weapons instead? Maybe an invisibility spell and a crossbow, it'll be quicker.

Glorthindel
2018-01-23, 12:00 PM
For a long time I considered spell memorisation, spell components, and research a boring slog to keep a player away from the fun toys. And then I played a traditional wizard and I was hooked.

Suddenly, I had goals far beyond anything I had had on a Rogue or Fighter. Yes, we all chase fame and riches, but my wizard craved much more. My Wizard became an obsessive collector of every strange object, artifact, and monsterous bodypart he found lying around - where a rogue or fighter would glaze over if there wasn't a treasure chest or weapon rack in a room, I was poking through stacks of paper, dusty bookcases, and the guts of whatever that strange four-legged tentacled-thing was in case maybe its blood, brains, or extremity would work as a component, part of research on a new spell, or make a nice spellbook cover or focus for a wand.

It really enabled my inner pack-rat. My characters Library and Alchemy Lab each totalled a higher value than the Fighters entire equipment list. I carried a pouch of own-crafted potions stocked with buffs for the rest of the party. I carried a bandolier of wands for that moment when I just needed to cast lightening bolts all day. I had couple of spells I had researched and developed with the DM for that personal signature spell moment. I carried a pile of stolen spellbooks, which I tore the pages out of to use as impromptu scrolls (only the crap spells, I copied the good ones in to my own stack of spellbooks). One of the party NPC's became my personal "weird monster butcher". My bag of holding contained more jars, vials, bottles, and boxes than I knew quite what to do with. My familiar was a rare creature we researched, hunted down, tamed, and trained specially. Oh, and I had a golden skull, which to this day the rest of the party is convinced was sentient because I had regular conversations with it (I called in Murrey, bonus points to catch the reference). I can safely say, all this "boring slog" gave me the most fun playing a character to date, I loved it!

Thrudd
2018-01-23, 12:33 PM
Take a standard wizard. They are supposed to be able to solve any problem thrown at them. No more, they should realistically warp any gaming world they are in around their incredible powers.

This is what D&D wizards are mostly striving toward, but in terms of the game not a realistic expectation, unless you're starting at level 15+. What you describe is the end result of a lifetime (or full campaign) of adventuring, gathering knowledge and power. Unless the DM is extremely lax in handing out spells, your experience playing a wizard should be more like a person with a relatively small toolkit of rather limited special effects, that challenges you as a player to find the most effective time and place to use those spells (since they are all one-shot use in the context of any given dungeon delve/adventure sequence). You should be challenged to think of ingenious/creative ways to make the random grab-bag of spells you've found, some of which will seem to have very niche uses, to solve problems the group might have.

FYI, AD&D allowed one spell choice at each level up, but you were not guaranteed to successfully comprehend any given spell you chose- so you might be forced to go with a second or third choice if you were unlucky. Also, DMs were encouraged to use random tables to determine what spells were found as loot in scrolls.

3e gave 2 spells chosen at each level, without any comprehension roll (which largely contributes to why 3e wizards became broken).

Tanarii
2018-01-23, 12:45 PM
Kids these days don't realize how easy they have it in terms of costly spell components and weird logistics. :smallamused:

In my day we had to walk through the forest both ways just to find the basic spell components needed to cast any spell! Need wool for a low level illusion spell? Be prepared to visit a farm or tailor regularly. Want to cast Fireball? Best know where the nearest alchemist is for the sulphur, and I hope you know a nearby bat cave!

Not to mention needed full on libraries for your full-sized spell-books, being forced to cut down to the most critical spells for your traveling spells, taking days to re-memorize your spells if you went Nova, and any hit during spellcasting automatically interrupting your spell.

Spore
2018-01-23, 06:25 PM
Kids these days don't realize how easy they have it in terms of costly spell components and weird logistics. :smallamused:

In my day we had to walk through the forest both ways just to find the basic spell components needed to cast any spell! Need wool for a low level illusion spell? Be prepared to visit a farm or tailor regularly. Want to cast Fireball? Best know where the nearest alchemist is for the sulphur, and I hope you know a nearby bat cave!

Not to mention needed full on libraries for your full-sized spell-books, being forced to cut down to the most critical spells for your traveling spells, taking days to re-memorize your spells if you went Nova, and any hit during spellcasting automatically interrupting your spell.

To be fair, if the result is as overwhelming as some spells are in AD&D this sounds actually MORE convincing. "The wizard casts 3 rounds and combat is won." or "the enemy wizard casts 5 rounds or the town is doomed as he opens a rift towards the plane of elemental earth resulting in a quake and angry elementals".

ross
2018-01-26, 03:42 PM
I just combine the sorceror and wizard, and give access to all spells known; so you have as many slots as the wizard, more for high ability, and no need to prepare ahead of time (cast any lvl x spell as long as you have lvl x slots)

also took out the penalty for school specialization