I've got a slight problem

[Crow_Nightfeath]

So in my upcoming campaign the party is going against 5 badass enemies. Two of which they meet and fight in the very beginning. The two have already been ordered by their boss not to kill anyone.
If it weren't for that the party absolutely wouldn't stand a chance. they both have the ability to down any member of the party really easy just through sheer damage. Problem is I can't take anything away from either of them without losing what they are.
How do I hold back.. without making it obvious I'm pulling punches? The party are level 10, the enemies are CR 20.

These two are based off of a pair me and one of my friends played as in a roleplay on gaiaonline a few years back, and I've always wanted to make them. In the RP they were called the wrecking crew because they could sack a town/city/fort just the two of them. Just building them racially they ended up stupid powerful, as well as being CR 20

[Gruftzwerg]

You got a few options:

a) tune em down to a manageable lvl (but you want to avoid that as you said).

b) somehow delay the fight and lvl your players quickly to a manageable point for the encounter

c) A combination of a & b. Tune em down for the first fight. Let em die and get resurrected later. When your group has the right lvl to fight em on full power, let the real fight begin.

Imho option c) is the best. Don't let your players know of their power lvl changes. Make it a surprise and let em underestimate em for extra fun ;)

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Well the first fight actually isn't going to last more than a couple rounds, and as I said they aren't allowed to kill.. but later down the line they'll have to fight them again.. and that time they won't be holding back from killing.

The first fight the enemy leader is going to be casting the mythic variant of time stop which allows up to several other people a couple rounds after the fight starts. (Even though they aren't mythic I'm DM fudging it)

[Mars Ultor]

The party are level 10, the enemies are CR 20.

These two are based off of a pair me and one of my friends played as in a roleplay on gaiaonline a few years back, and I've always wanted to make them. In the RP they were called the wrecking crew because they could sack a town/city/fort just the two of them. Just building them racially they ended up stupid powerful, as well as being CR 20

Your problem is of your own creation. You're more interested in reusing your own old character than choosing an enemy of commensurate ability with the party. Don't insist on reusing your "stupid powerful" 20th level characters against a 10th-level party and there's no problem.

If you want to play a character, find a game and play a character. Don't try to play and DM at the same time.

[Zombimode]

You got a few options:

a) tune em down to a manageable lvl (but you want to avoid that as you said).

b) somehow delay the fight and lvl your players quickly to a manageable point for the encounter

c) A combination of a & b. Tune em down for the first fight. Let em die and get resurrected later. When your group has the right lvl to fight em on full power, let the real fight begin.

Imho option c) is the best. Don't let your players know of their power lvl changes. Make it a surprise and let em underestimate em for extra fun ;)

d) Don't hold back, but have the opponents break the engagement after a very short time (like one round, maybe two).

e): Rethink your approach. Maybe puting your players against an unwinnable opponent is simply not a very good idea?

[Gnaeus]

If you want to use them and don’t want to delevel them, make them hurt. Describe them as being all beat up. Make all/most their daily powers expended in the last fight. Have one of them make a comment about the gang of spectres they just fought and how they are still hurt. Give them some negative levels and strength damage.

However, I do agree that making your party fight way overleveled DMPCs sounds problematic.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Actually, that could work for the second fight. It wouldn't be specters.. they could have just finished leveling a town. Oddly enough the inhabitants of the town would be a large polar bear-like race and dwarves so even a half golem wouldn't get away unscratched. And the kineticist could have used up all her burn. With him at half health, and her having to resort to her more basic kinetic abilities.. and maybe the party learning about how electrical attacks slow half iron golems.

It still won't be easy, but I think it'd be doable. Also if the party has gained as many levels as I think they should.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

The other thing is all of you are attacking me because I am using powerful enemies as the big bad guys in my campaign. But I bet you wouldn't even say a word if they were player characters built the exact same way. I've learned with my group I actually have to build enemies that are on par or stronger than player characters for them to even have a chance of attacking. This group once took out a CR 20 monster at level 12, with taking little to no damage in the 2 rounds the fight lasted. The monster was a caster type not a fighter.
I admit that I believe these two might be quite a bit more powerful than I initially intended, so I don't know if they'll mop the floor or not, but there is the equal possibility that these two may get defeated before they can even do anything. My whole reason for posting this thread was to get ideas on how to pull punches if I have to, not to be told I'm a bad dm for using powerful enemies.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

just use non-lethal damage, they will just stay unconscious and wont die.

If i get it right, you want them to lose and that way they can lose and stay alive.

If you want to just make them weaker then you should post there builds.

[TheIronGolem]

The other thing is all of you are attacking me because I am using powerful enemies as the big bad guys in my campaign.

Nobody is "attacking" you. They're criticizing specific decisions you've made, and rightly so. You've stated your intent to run a scenario that is widely regarded as both cliche and unfun for players.

Nobody is objecting to you using powerful enemies. They're objecting because you've given a very strong impression that showing off your favorite PC characters is more important to you than your players enjoying the encounter themselves.

[JNAProductions]

Nobody is "attacking" you. They're criticizing specific decisions you've made, and rightly so. You've stated your intent to run a scenario that is widely regarded as both cliche and unfun for players.

Nobody is objecting to you using powerful enemies. They're objecting because you've given a very strong impression that showing off your favorite PC characters is more important to you than your players enjoying the encounter themselves.

Yeah. We're not saying "You're a bad DM and should feel bad," we're saying "You might be too attached to these characters, and that could make things less fun for your players."

Now, it's important for you to have fun too, but generally, overpowered DMPCs (even if they're on the enemy's team) aren't fun for the players. At all.

[Telonius]

just use non-lethal damage, they will just stay unconscious and wont die.

If i get it right, you want them to lose and that way they can lose and stay alive.

If you want to just make them weaker then you should post there builds.

Seconding this. Dealing nonlethal means attacking at a -4 (unless you have a Merciful weapon or something like that). Knocking the party Barbarian out cold in a single hit will impress on them that this is a seriously overpowered fight that they don't want to get into at the moment. A well-placed, "Lucky for you, we don't have orders to kill you. This time..." can establish that they're going to recur without dealing any irreparable damage to the party.

[Jiece18]

The other thing is all of you are attacking me because I am using powerful enemies as the big bad guys in my campaign.

My whole reason for posting this thread was to get ideas on how to pull punches if I have to, not to be told I'm a bad dm for using powerful enemies.

You made some DMPCs that you seem to care about more than your players. This is always an unwise idea because DMPCs tend to not only be more powerful than even same level PC counterparts, but DMs tend to skew the game in their characters favor. There is nothing wrong with using powerful enemies, but having to find ways for your DMPCs to "pull punches" shows how flawed their concept is. If an encounter is too high for a PC group, then lower it. If the party wins, then sure, they will be happy with how the overcame such odds. If the party loses and finds out they didn't stand a chance, it will probably annoy them.

A DMs job is to make and interesting and fun game for the players who are the main characters in the RPG story that is being told. Not to show off their own DMPCs at the players expense.