Why elves are immune to ghouls' paralytic touch

[Red Bear]

"Ghouls trace their origins to the Abyss. Doresain, the first of their kind, was an elf worshiper of Orcus. Turning against his own people, he feasted on humanoid flesh to honor the Demon Prince of Undeath. As a reward for his service, Orcus transformed Doresain into the first ghoul. Doresain served Orcus faithfully in the Abyss, creating ghouls from the demon lord's other servants until an incursion by Yeenoghu,
the demonic Gnoll Lord, robbed Doresain of his abyssal domain. When Orcus would not intervene on his behalf, Doresain turned to the elf gods for salvation, and
they took pity on him and helped him escape certain destruction. Since then, elves have been immune to the ghouls' paralytic touch."
(monster manual page 148)

I thought this was really cool, and while eventually I will read all the monster manual I wanted to ask you if you found other "mythical" explanations for other playable race abilities or any other cool story like this that builds up an in-universe dnd mythology

[JellyPooga]

Why would the Elf gods help Doresain though? There's either a really cool story there or some extreme oversight going on to make an ability try and make sense.

Did Doresain repent to the Elf gods and take them for chumps by going back on his word? Did they demand some favour of him? I'm curious to hear any theories.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why would the Elf gods help Doresain though?

Cheap and easy way to meddle in the affairs of the Abyss, I wager. The enemy of my enemy is my meat shield sorta thing. That or this silly redemption business.


Did Doresain repent to the Elf gods and take them for chumps by going back on his word? Did they demand some favour of him? I'm curious to hear any theories.

I think it's better to be left unsaid. It could make for a really cool plot hook for a high level story.

[Unoriginal]

Why would the Elf gods help Doresain though? There's either a really cool story there or some extreme oversight going on to make an ability try and make sense.

Did Doresain repent to the Elf gods and take them for chumps by going back on his word? Did they demand some favour of him? I'm curious to hear any theories.

Why did the Elf gods help?

Because they're good guys.

Having good deities be benevolent isn't an oversight.

[Theodoxus]

Plus granting elves immunity to the ghoul's paralysis is a poke in the eye to Orcus and his ghoulish minions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why would the Elf gods help Doresain though? It's a bit of a ret con to account for a feature of elves/ghouls that has been with us since Chainmail/OD&D since Wights and Ghouls used to both be able to paralyze their foees.
GHOULS: As stated in CHAINMAIL for Wights, Ghouls paralize any normal figure they touch, excluding Elves. They otherwise melee in the regular fashion and are subject to missile fire. Any man-type killed by a Ghoul becomes one.

If they touch a normal figure during melee, it becomes paralyzed and remains so for one complete turn. Hmm, I can't find in my chainmail where the elves are immune, so it appears that they made this exclusion during the leap from chainmail to D&D.

[JellyPooga]

Why did the Elf gods help?

Because they're good guys.

Having good deities be benevolent isn't an oversight.

But Doresain is a paragon of being a bad guy (he's the deity of evil cannibals! He betrayed the good guys once, why not again?). The good guys would have to have a pretty decent reason for promoting evil, beyond just being nice to him. Good =/= nice.

I agree that it's probably left unsaid, but it's nice to theorise.

[Honest Tiefling]

But Doresain is a paragon of being a bad guy (he's the deity of evil cannibals! He betrayed the good guys once, why not again?). The good guys would have to have a pretty decent reason for promoting evil, beyond just being nice to him. Good =/= nice.

True, but I think the idea that he was helped so he'd cause more problems for Yeenoghu isn't an unfair assumption. Infighting isn't uncommon in the abyss, so why not encourage it a bit more so people will stay out of your hair?

Another idea is that they weren't being benevolent with Doresain. Elf gods have access to magic, so they might have put enchantments onto him to track him or to figure out what he's been doing. Having him bum around on the couch for a bit seems like a fair price for a bit of spying, don't you agree?

Heck, another angle is that Doresain isn't Doresain anymore. Smear some stuff onto an elf, how the heck are you going to notice the difference? Now you have a spy.

[2D8HP]

It's a bit of a ret con to account for a feature of elves/ghouls that has been with us since Chainmail/OD&D since Wights and Ghouls used to both be able to paralyze their foes*

GHOULS: As stated in CHAINMAIL for Wights, Ghouls paralize any normal figure they touch, excluding Elves. They otherwise melee in the regular fashion and are subject to missile fire. Any man-type killed by a Ghoul becomes one.


If they touch a normal figure during melee, it becomes paralyzed and remains so for one complete turn.
Hmm, I can't find in my chainmail where the elves are immune, so it appears that they made this exclusion during the leap from chainmail to D&D.


I'm not finding it either (in the third edition of Chainmail), but I did find,

Chainmail, pages 33 & 34:
WRAITHS (Nazgul, etc.): Wraiths can see in darkness, raise the morale of
friendly troops as if they were Heroes, cause the enemy to check morale as if
they were Super Heroes, and paralyze any enemy man — excluding all mentioned in the Fantasy Supplement — they touch during the course of a move (not
flying). Paralyzed troops remain unmoving until touched by a friendly Elf, Hero-type, or Wizard. Touch means either actual contact or coming within 1" of.
A Wraith can either move normally or fly, remaining in the air for as many turns as
desired. They melee as either two Armored Foot or two Medium Horse, and they are impervious to all save magical weapons or combat by other fantastic creatures.
Morale Rating — 10 Point Value — 10
LYCANTHROPES (Shape Changers): The two main types of Lycanthropes are Werebears and Werewolves. The Lycanthrope will bring a number of animals of
its were-type with it, and this adds to their fighting ability. If they are fighting
inside of, or within 6" of, a wood, other than an Entwood, they will double their
melee capability. Lycanthropes attack as four Armored Foot and defend as four
Heavy Foot. It takes four simultaneous hits, from either missiles or melee, to kill
a Lycanthrope in normal combat. Magical weapons will kill them in a single hit.
Lycanthropes can see in darkness.
Morale Rating — 20 Point Value — 20
TROLLS (and Ogres): What are generally referred to as Trolls are more prop-
erly Ogres — intermediate creatures between men and Giants. They will fight in
formations, and have a melee capability of six Heavy Foot. Trolls (and Ogres)
can see in darkness, but suffer no penalty in full light. True Trolls are much more
fearsome beasts (see Poul Andersen's THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS). Ogres
are killed when they have taken an accumulation of six missile or melee hits in
normal combat. Elves can kill them with three hits, and Hero-types or magical
weapons kill them with a single hit.
True Trolls can only be killed in Fantastic Combat against Hero-types, Bal-
rogs, Elementals and Giants — magical weapons will also kill True Trolls.
"

[JackPhoenix]

IIRC, in Chainmail, elves had fewer figures on the field, so they were made immune to make the ghould more balanced against them... losing one figure to paralysis was harsher for elf player.

Or at least that's the explanaition I've read few years ago in a discussion of the same topic.

[Unoriginal]

But Doresain is a paragon of being a bad guy (he's the deity of evil cannibals! He betrayed the good guys once, why not again?). The good guys would have to have a pretty decent reason for promoting evil, beyond just being nice to him. Good =/= nice.

Doresain was a paragon of being a bad guy, yes. Yet when he begged for help, the Elf gods still found in themselves to help him, and they saw he was sincere in his regrets. He wanted salvation, they took pity on the bad guy.

This is NOT promoting evil. It's promoting good.

Good isn't always nice. But sometime it is. And good is always benevolent.

Nothing in the story says he got away scott-free from his crimes, the story is simply that the Elven deities saved his life nevertheless.

Also, he's not a god. He is/was just a very powerful ghoul.


True, but I think the idea that he was helped so he'd cause more problems for Yeenoghu isn't an unfair assumption. Infighting isn't uncommon in the abyss, so why not encourage it a bit more so people will stay out of your hair?

Another idea is that they weren't being benevolent with Doresain. Elf gods have access to magic, so they might have put enchantments onto him to track him or to figure out what he's been doing. Having him bum around on the couch for a bit seems like a fair price for a bit of spying, don't you agree?

Heck, another angle is that Doresain isn't Doresain anymore. Smear some stuff onto an elf, how the heck are you going to notice the difference? Now you have a spy.

...what are you talking about?

Doresain doesn't work in the Abyss anymore. He got rescued by the Elf gods.

[Jigawatts]

Fun fact: Elven immunity to ghoul paralysis actually originates from Chainmail and carried over to D&D at its genesis.

[KorvinStarmast]

Fun fact: Elven immunity to ghoul paralysis actually originates from Chainmail and carried over to D&D at its genesis. Which edition of Chainmail had elven immunity? My third edition book doesn't seem to have it. (3rd edition published due to demand in about 1976, IIRC).

I did find this.

WRAITHS (Nazgul, etc.): Wraiths can see in darkness, raise the morale of friendly troops as if they were Heroes, cause the enemy to check morale as if they were Super Heroes, and paralyze any enemy man — excluding all men- they touch during the course of a move (not flying). Paralyzed troops remain unmoving until touched by a friendly Elf, Herotype, or Wizard. Touch means either actual contact or coming within 1" of. A Wraith can either move normally or fly, remaining in the air for as many turns as desired. They melee as either two Armored Foot or two Medium Horse, and they are impervious to all save magical weapons or combat by other fantastic creatures.
You could infer from that passage that elves had a special thing dealing with being paralyzed in general, but on the combat table on page 4-3, elves being immune to effect "G" (the paralyzing touch from wights, wraiths, ghouls) was not called out. (And I seem to recall that we treated elves as immune to ghoul and wight in chainmail battles ... foggy memory). There was probably an errata or a thing from second edition on that score. Hmmm, I an drawing a blank.

[JellyPooga]

Also, he's not a god. He is/was just a very powerful ghoul.

Hmm, I'm conflating 3ed fluff with 5ed again. In Libris Mortis he was listed as the deity of Ghouls (and generally the concept of eternal hunger, as I recall) and I've always thought of him as such.

[Jigawatts]

Which edition of Chainmail had elven immunity? My third edition book doesn't seem to have it. (3rd edition published due to demand in about 1976, IIRC).

No clue, I actually learned that fact from an article with the WotC team that was promoting 4E around its release, which was basically justifying their slaughtering of D&D sacred cows, and they used elven immunity to ghoul paralysis as one example of randomness that needed cleaned up in the game, stating it originated in Chainmail.

[Naanomi]

Maybe it happened earlier in planar history? Gods stayed out of the War of Law and Chaos, but during that era Arborea and the Abyss were collaborating heavily; it is possible there was some... not friendly but non-hostile... contact between the Elven Pantheon and the Ghoul Lord

[Unoriginal]

Hmm, I'm conflating 3ed fluff with 5ed again. In Libris Mortis he was listed as the deity of Ghouls (and generally the concept of eternal hunger, as I recall) and I've always thought of him as such.

Well he was Orcus's subordinate, and transformed from an elf into an undead by the Demon Lord. Orcus is powerful, but he's not a god (even though he would rather like to rectify that).


No clue, I actually learned that fact from an article with the WotC team that was promoting 4E around its release, which was basically justifying their slaughtering of D&D sacred cows, and they used elven immunity to ghoul paralysis as one example of randomness that needed cleaned up in the game, stating it originated in Chainmail.

Ah, yes. Because why would a *fantasy* setting have instances of some powers interacting weirdly or having semi-random-looking clauses.


Not criticizing you, Jigawatt, to be clear. Just flabbergasted by that 4e stuff.

Do you happen to recall which article it was, by any chance?

[KorvinStarmast]

No clue, I actually learned that fact from an article with the WotC team that was promoting 4E around its release, which was basically justifying their slaughtering of D&D sacred cows, and they used elven immunity to ghoul paralysis as one example of randomness that needed cleaned up in the game, stating it originated in Chainmail. Ah, thanks, I was not up on D&D stuff when 4e was alive and well, and quite frankly the Chainmail games that I played where that even came up were ones after I had already played some D&D so we probably just went with what we were used to from OD&D anyway ... again, memory is a bit foggy on this.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Well, I think that explains every problem with 4th edition. "We have a neat little quirk of the setting we could use to create a story with or we could standardize everything."

[Malifice]

"Ghouls trace their origins to the Abyss. Doresain, the first of their kind, was an elf worshiper of Orcus. Turning against his own people, he feasted on humanoid flesh to honor the Demon Prince of Undeath. As a reward for his service, Orcus transformed Doresain into the first ghoul. Doresain served Orcus faithfully in the Abyss, creating ghouls from the demon lord's other servants until an incursion by Yeenoghu,
the demonic Gnoll Lord, robbed Doresain of his abyssal domain. When Orcus would not intervene on his behalf, Doresain turned to the elf gods for salvation, and
they took pity on him and helped him escape certain destruction. Since then, elves have been immune to the ghouls' paralytic touch."
(monster manual page 148)

I thought this was really cool, and while eventually I will read all the monster manual I wanted to ask you if you found other "mythical" explanations for other playable race abilities or any other cool story like this that builds up an in-universe dnd mythology

The real reason is that in the 70s in the game Çhainmail (from which DnD evolved) Ghouls and Elves were seperate playable factions (kind of like Necrons and Eldar in 40K).

In order to balance the Ghoul faction, GG made Elves immune to Ghoul paralysis.

The ability kind of just stuck. Its taken till 5th edition DnD over 40 years later before we actually have a reason for it.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

The real reason is that in the 70s in the game Çhainmail (from which DnD evolved) Ghouls and Elves were seperate playable factions (kind of like Necrons and Eldar in 40K).
In order to balance the Ghoul faction, GG made Elves immune to Ghoul paralysis.
The ability kind of just stuck. Its taken till 5th edition DnD over 40 years later before we actually have a reason for it.

I'm pretty sure the Liber Mortis hinted that it had something to do with the first ghoul being an elf back in 3.0, though they didn't have a full story.

[KorvinStarmast]

In order to balance the Ghoul faction, GG made Elves immune to Ghoul paralysis.
No, they didn't, elves could unparalize a unit that had been paralyzed by a ghoul, wight, or wraith. In Chainmail. (We cited what's in there further up).
That morphed into elves being immune to ghoul's paralysis in OD&D (original 3 books) Monsters and Treasures as I cited above.
But you are right that ghouls were on "team chaos" and elves were on "team law" for most chainmail / fantasy supplement purposes.