Rapid Metamagic in E6

[Doctor Awkward]

Assuming you changed the prerequisites on this feat from 12 ranks in Spellcraft to 9, how much of an impact, positive or negative, would it have on an E6 game?

[johnbragg]

Rapid metamagic by itself isn't going to break the game. What would break the game is stacking metamagic with metamagic reducers.
But if you have E6 characters casting maximized empowered twinned fell drain fireballs, then having them do so as a standard action instead of a full round action isn't the problem

[QuadraticGish]

Rapid metamagic by itself isn't going to break the game. What would break the game is stacking metamagic with metamagic reducers.
But if you have E6 characters casting maximized empowered twinned fell drain fireballs, then having them do so as a standard action instead of a full round action isn't the problem

Would you mind going over what metamagic stacking and reducing breaks stuff? I'm not that familiar with 3.5 stuff and I'm curious.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Considering the sorcerer could have simply traded the familiar away for that same feature, it wouldn't really change things.

[Crake]

Considering the sorcerer could have simply traded the familiar away for that same feature, it wouldn't really change things.

That is only a limited number of times per day though, the rapid metamagic feat is always on.

[Doctor Awkward]

Would you mind going over what metamagic stacking and reducing breaks stuff? I'm not that familiar with 3.5 stuff and I'm curious.

The four I am aware of (off the top of my head) are:

Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, pg 45):
Requires Spell Focus or being a specialist wizard. Whenever you apply a metamagic feat to a spell of the chosen school, the spell level increase is reduced by 1. It only function three times per day, or on three prepared spells per day.

Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon, pg. 101):
Requires spontaneous spellcasting, 8 Ranks in Spellcraft, the ability to cast 3rd-level spells, any other metamagic feat, and the dragonblood subtype. You choose a single metamagic feat that you know and reduce the spell level increase by 1 whenever you apply it to a spell, to a minimum of 1 level increase (so it has no effect on Extend).

Easy Metamagic (Dragon Magazine issue #325):
Requires one metamagic feat. This is exactly the same as practical metamagic, only with much fewer prerequisites, and it's available to prepared casters too.

Arcane Thesis (Player's Handbook II, pg. 74):
Requires 9 ranks in Knowledge (arcana). This feat essentially allows a spellcaster to choose a "signature spell". You choose one arcane spell that you know, and then whenever you cast that spell you do so at +2 effective caster level. Additionally, whenever you apply metamagic feats to that spell, each one has the spell level increase reduced by 1. For example, an empowered maximized spell would normally a +5 (2 for empower and 3 for maximize), but on a thesis spell it is only a +3 (-1 to both empower and maximize).


There's another feat, Earth Spell, in Races of Stone which is sort of a "reducer" as well, but it only functions on Heighten Spell. Basically whenever you heighten a spell it counts as being one level higher than the spell slot you use.



That is only a limited number of times per day though, the rapid metamagic feat is always on.

I missed this ACF somehow, where is it?

[johnbragg]

So an example of metamagic stacking shenanigans available in E6 would be

Arcane Thesis: Touch of Fatigue (Cantrip)
Eschew Materials (not metamagic)
Still Spell (+1 --> +0)
Silent Spell (+1 --> +0)
Reach Spell (+1 --> +0)
Extend Spell (+1 --> +0)
Fell Drain, Easy Metamagic: Fell Drain (+2 --> +0)

So you've got a cantrip that hits the target with a negative level as a touch attack, without you having to move a muscle.

If we have a prepared caster, we can stack
Metamagic School Focus
Twinned Spell, Easy Metamagic: Twinned Spell (+4 --> +1)

IF someone else has another metamagic reducer that would stack with Arcane Thesis and Easy MEtamagic, and Metamagic School Focus, then we have a 1st level spell that hits target with two negative levels on a ranged touch attack, from a caster who isn't using any components at all.
Caster hits three times, an E6 hero (or NPC) is dead.

Is the cheese here Fell Drain itself, or is the cheese stacking metamagic reducers? Either one by itself would be manageable. Most of the +1 metamagics aren't worth it, so you want reducers. Even the +2/+3 metamagics are arguable at +1/+2--you spent the feats to get there, you're using a higher level spell slot. But they get ridiculous when you're getting them for free. And of course, the BBEGs get to run the same shenanigans as the PCs. (And BBEGs don't need nearly the versatility of PCs, so a vampire'd 6th level caster could almost reasonably spend 11 feats on all this, pick up a ring of invisibility and wreck half the campaign world. Actually 5 of those feats are just for style points--you can just deliver the touch spell through a familiar.)

As often happens in 3X, elements that are perfectly fine, or arguable, or even underpowered on their own, become incredibly powerful when combined.

[Eldariel]

The four I am aware of (off the top of my head) are:

Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, pg 45):
Requires Spell Focus or being a specialist wizard. Whenever you apply a metamagic feat to a spell of the chosen school, the spell level increase is reduced by 1. It only function three times per day, or on three prepared spells per day.

Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon, pg. 101):
Requires spontaneous spellcasting, 8 Ranks in Spellcraft, the ability to cast 3rd-level spells, any other metamagic feat, and the dragonblood subtype. You choose a single metamagic feat that you know and reduce the spell level increase by 1 whenever you apply it to a spell, to a minimum of 1 level increase (so it has no effect on Extend).

Easy Metamagic (Dragon Magazine issue #325):
Requires one metamagic feat. This is exactly the same as practical metamagic, only with much fewer prerequisites, and it's available to prepared casters too.

Arcane Thesis (Player's Handbook II, pg. 74):
Requires 9 ranks in Knowledge (arcana). This feat essentially allows a spellcaster to choose a "signature spell". You choose one arcane spell that you know, and then whenever you cast that spell you do so at +2 effective caster level. Additionally, whenever you apply metamagic feats to that spell, each one has the spell level increase reduced by 1. For example, an empowered maximized spell would normally a +5 (2 for empower and 3 for maximize), but on a thesis spell it is only a +3 (-1 to both empower and maximize).


There's another feat, Earth Spell, in Races of Stone which is sort of a "reducer" as well, but it only functions on Heighten Spell. Basically whenever you heighten a spell it counts as being one level higher than the spell slot you use.

There's some other stuff but mostly outside the class features (that you can't really access in E6 without breaking the premise with early entry shenanigans), this is pretty much it. All those together can be problematic, but really, Arcane Thesis is the big one. Having it apply once to the whole spell (that is, the spell as a total has 1 point of "free" metamagic) as opposed to every metamagic feat applied would be balanced, but it wouldn't be absolutely crazy if you just don't allow it to reduce +0 metamagic into -1 (the errata only concerns the final spell level, not the intermittent applications, so -1s still work).


I missed this ACF somehow, where is it?

The same book as Arcane Thesis: Player's Handbook II

That said, Wizards already exist and get metamagic without duration adjustment, and spontaneity through Uncanny Forethought [Exemplars of Evil], so I have a hard time seeing this cause any problems whatsoever. I think the rule that spontaneous casters get shafted in the first place is dumb and should be eliminated; even in the best case this is essentially just a feat tax.


So an example of metamagic stacking shenanigans available in E6 would be

Arcane Thesis: Touch of Fatigue (Cantrip)
Eschew Materials (not metamagic)
Still Spell (+1 --> +0)
Silent Spell (+1 --> +0)
Reach Spell (+1 --> +0)
Extend Spell (+1 --> +0)
Fell Drain, Easy Metamagic: Fell Drain (+2 --> +0)

So you've got a cantrip that hits the target with a negative level as a touch attack, without you having to move a muscle.

If we have a prepared caster, we can stack
Metamagic School Focus
Twinned Spell, Easy Metamagic: Twinned Spell (+4 --> +1)

IF someone else has another metamagic reducer that would stack with Arcane Thesis and Easy MEtamagic, and Metamagic School Focus, then we have a 1st level spell that hits target with two negative levels on a ranged touch attack, from a caster who isn't using any components at all.
Caster hits three times, an E6 hero (or NPC) is dead.

Is the cheese here Fell Drain itself, or is the cheese stacking metamagic reducers? Either one by itself would be manageable. Most of the +1 metamagics aren't worth it, so you want reducers. Even the +2/+3 metamagics are arguable at +1/+2--you spent the feats to get there, you're using a higher level spell slot. But they get ridiculous when you're getting them for free. And of course, the BBEGs get to run the same shenanigans as the PCs. (And BBEGs don't need nearly the versatility of PCs, so a vampire'd 6th level caster could almost reasonably spend 11 feats on all this, pick up a ring of invisibility and wreck half the campaign world. Actually 5 of those feats are just for style points--you can just deliver the touch spell through a familiar.)

As often happens in 3X, elements that are perfectly fine, or arguable, or even underpowered on their own, become incredibly powerful when combined.

I'd argue that spending 6-7 feats for touch attack negative levels isn't particularly broken. But when Arcane Thesis is a problem, you combine it with Invisible Spell, Born of Three Thunders & co. to apply stuff like Quicken Spell and Twin Spell with the -1 metamagics "making up" for the extra spell levels. This leads to some ridiculous stuff...though on levels as low as E6 you still don't have all the most broken toys available.

[Doctor Awkward]

@johnbragg and Eldarial:

Thank you for the info and the posts. Good reads.

[johnbragg]

I'd argue that spending 6-7 feats for touch attack negative levels isn't particularly broken. But when Arcane Thesis is a problem, you combine it with Invisible Spell, Born of Three Thunders & co. to apply stuff like Quicken Spell and Twin Spell with the -1 metamagics "making up" for the extra spell levels. This leads to some ridiculous stuff...though on levels as low as E6 you still don't have all the most broken toys available.

Except a lot of those feats were just for style (Eschew MAterials, Still, Silent--I'm not even sure why I threw in Extend Spell) You could run the same trick with just Arcane Thesis : Touch of Fatigue, Fell Drain, Easy Metamagic: Fell Drain and maybe Reach Spell. 3-4 feats is a lot, but E6+N campaigns can allow for a lot of shenanigans.