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FabulousFizban
2018-01-24, 02:22 AM
...for you to pay for a DM? What kind of gaming experience could a DM provide that you would find worth paying $5-10 a session for? (EDIT: per person)

DeTess
2018-01-24, 04:33 AM
For $5-10 dollars my standards wouldn't be too high. The DM should be well prepared, run a self-made campaign, be focussed and not cause any BS.

Mutazoia
2018-01-24, 04:47 AM
A smoking hot red head that played completely naked.

Other than that, I wouldn't pay to play.

Lvl 2 Expert
2018-01-24, 04:58 AM
5-10 dollar per session?

That's a bit of an odd amount. It doesn't really feel like you're paying them until you pay about that much per hour. At the same time the fact that it's phrased as pay and not as gas money or "you guys bring the food" places the whole thing in a professional context anyway.

Ah, of course, per person.

Honestly I'd probably try my hand at taking up the DM seat myself first. To switch to someone else doing it for pay they need to at least be better and better prepared than me. And it has to result in more enjoyment of the game. So it helps a lot if this DM is a pleasant person in general who fits in with the group well, tom the point where they'd almost consider doing it for free because everybody including them is having such a good time.

Incorrect
2018-01-24, 05:29 AM
It would take no competition, if I can get it for free, Im not likely to pay.

I wouldn't pay anyone Im friends with. Cause thats not what friends do.

A 3d dungeon with fitting minis and stuff like that, might be worth paying for, because thats an experience I wont get otherwise.

Anonymouswizard
2018-01-24, 05:50 AM
I wouldn't, I like running games to the point I'd do it exclusively if I could (unfortunately of my last few groups in one nobody wanted to play what I was offering to run and in another the GM seat was filled by a far better GM). Now when I GM I do ask for payment, but I only accept it in drinks and snacks, not in money :smalltongue:

To be serious, I probably wouldn't. If it comes down to it then I have other hobbies I could do for less that I'd enjoy just as much, or we could all go to the pub and have a couple of drinks on the same budget. I'd be more than willing to stump up some cash if I was in a group which paid for a venue (I've seen it happen, either due to being a more profession entity to help people without roleplayer friends nearby to get games or because nobody has a big enough living room), but not for GMing.

Now I will GM for people I don't know in a public venue if I'm asked enough in advance. I just think it's insulting to both myself and them if I ask for money to do it when I could just ask them to cover my meal.

weckar
2018-01-24, 05:55 AM
This topic comes up every so often. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526368-Anybody-ever-hear-of-being-paid-to-be-a-DM), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?91070-Paid-DMing-GMing) and elsewhere on the internet here (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/8800-paid-dming-yes-no-maybe).

Pleh
2018-01-24, 06:04 AM
...for you to pay for a DM? What kind of gaming experience could a DM provide that you would find worth paying $5-10 a session for?

I would pay $5-$10 a session to attend a convention where those dollars also give access to everything else at the convention.

I would pay $5-$10 for a campaign, as that could be splitting the cost of an adventure pack.

Really, even if there were no competition with free DMs, there's always game 0: writing my own fanfiction.

Paying money has to have some kind of assurance that the product will be somehow better than what I could produce through personal effort. I don't think TTRPGs have much way of doing that yet.

I guess if a DM had a portfolio of their work to demonstrate that they consistently ran A Grade games far and away better than what I have time to prepare, I might be more tempted. At that point, marketing becomes similar to video games.

Pelle
2018-01-24, 06:49 AM
If a group of people really wants to play and no one wants to DM, sure, paying someone else to do it reasonable. You can't expect people to do something for you that they don't want to for free.

I like to DM myself though, so for me to pay would require something spectacular.

Joe the Rat
2018-01-24, 11:25 AM
I would pay $5-$10 a session to attend a convention where those dollars also give access to everything else at the convention.

I do pay about that much on top of the base ticket. And I expect a good effort, regardless of the source (con play series, old module, self-made, etc.).

-then I steal every concept not nailed down and on fire for my home game.

JeenLeen
2018-01-24, 02:43 PM
As noted earlier in this thread, this topic has come up before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?91070-Paid-DMing-GMing). Here's another posting about it (although I was looking for the previous one):
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?153728-Would-you-pay-for-a-DM&highlight=pay+for+DM

I think it's a reasonable venture, offering one's services (skilled DMing, time investment in game prep, expertise in systems) to a group.

On the other hand, I personally probably wouldn't pay for it, but that's more of a time issue than any view of it as worth or not-worth money.

icefractal
2018-01-24, 03:12 PM
Running a very demanding kind of game; the kind that I wouldn't want to run myself.

For instance, a well fleshed-out sandbox setting where the PCs were initially way outgunned, but fully encouraged to pull out the full toolbox of optimized tactics, including on a strategic level. And where the GM successfully walked the difficult tightrope of having exciting challenges without negating any PC abilities or auto-scaling the opposition. Oh, and being prepared enough to handle something like "we teleport to this previously unvisited kingdom, infiltrate the army, and get started subverting a few legions for our own purposes." While also running it well in general.

Because that sounds like a hell of a lot of work. TBH, I think $10 a session is probably underselling it, but that's the amount you mentioned.

Mordar
2018-01-24, 03:49 PM
...for you to pay for a DM? What kind of gaming experience could a DM provide that you would find worth paying $5-10 a session for?

Necessary characteristics:


Really talented from a design stand point - engaging, complex and artistic "adventure" design
Really talented from an implementation stand point - engaging and enjoyable gameplay at the table
Professional in their manner and demeanor - yeah, clean is only the beginning...
Eliminates game headaches - manages all administrative issues both at and away from the table
Provides a consistently and thoroughly enjoyable experience - manages the game experience to meet the needs of the players

I come from a perspective that there is room for and potentially great value in something like a "professional" GM...as long as they deliver a professional quality experience.

I like to play basketball. I play a lot of pickup ball at the park. There's a good core group of guys that play where and when I go, and there are other people that float in and out depending on the days and times. Its free, its fun...but inconsistent. Sometimes great, other times crappy...and for different reasons. The talent level varies a lot, and the intensity level varies a lot. Even with that same core group, not everyone is always on the same page.

I also pay to belong to a gym that has a very competitive league. It's "serious" (yeah, sometimes too serious), it is managed and officiated, and everyone is within a much smaller range of intensity (and talent, though less so) than at the park. It makes for a very different kind of experience than the park, but it is consistent and I can always count on it to be what it is I want from it.

I see this as the same deal. Home games, store games with a core group of friends or pick-up style, meetups...all of those can be fantastic, and without question have been some of the best RPG experiences I have ever had. But they also have had some of the least-fun, most poorly-managed or untenable experience as well.

Many times once you find that sweet mix of people, system and role those games take off and become legendary campaigns that we all hope for. But as we grow older it seems life gets more and more in the way. The 12-hour game sessions every week with 6 hours of away from the table prep time or OOC interaction (for a player, tons more for a GM) dwindles and ebbs to maybe a 4-hour session each week where hopefully most of the players make it and are ready to play at the appointed time. The demands on the GM are even greater, but they have jobs and families and such as well, and can no longer devote as much time to crafting the game either. So play becomes more sporadic and of more uneven quality. Sometimes the time would simply be better spent having the exact same group of folks eat pizza and play board games/watch movies/just eat pizza.

The GM carries a disproportionate share of the responsibility/burden/blame for the experience...and while "for the love of the game" is (to me) the most important driver in terms of GM inspiration, I think that a financial link to performance can be a wonderful incentive. Not, however, for someone who is already part of the group...not as a "we'll pay our friend so that when his wife/kids/real job issues come up he can still justify working out an encounter balance issue for Thursday night's game and get the props ready for the investigation scene that comes afterwards" but as a contract with an outside party to perform a service.

Depending, I also think that such a contractor would need to provide the physical space and environment for play, but that is a negotiable item.

Finally since I would envision 4 players instead of 6, I think I'd be more in the $15-25 range than the $5-10 range per 4 hour session. Basically, I'd be willing to budget $100 a month for 4 (on average) sessions of high-quality play experience in a professional setting.

But I may want to think about it more.

- M

RazorChain
2018-01-24, 03:51 PM
I GM most of the time and I do it for free and for the enjoyment of it.


So the first critera would be that the GM in question would have to be better than me, good luck with that.

The second critera is that the GM would run exactly the game I want because frankly the reason I have been GMing for the most part of the last three decades is because I'm running the game I want.

Third critera is that none of my fellow players can be jerkbags and must be decent roleplayers because they are the key to that I'll have a good roleplaying experience.

Mr Beer
2018-01-24, 06:32 PM
Pass. I like GM-ing so I'll do it thanks. I play with people I like so paying them or paying me seems weird anyway.

If my only gaming option was paying a GM, I guess I might but more likely I'd offer to do it myself for free or go find another gaming group I liked.

Vitruviansquid
2018-01-24, 06:44 PM
I don't feel like a good game would be produced if the players related to the GM as costumers. I would rather play no game at all than one where I paid the GM to GM it.

kyoryu
2018-01-24, 06:45 PM
$5 a session? Per person or total?

I wouldn't pay $5 a session. Anyone that would take such a pittance wouldn't treat it professionally enough to be worth paying for. At that point, I'd rather have someone doing it out of love.

I'd want someone charging at least $10-$15 an hour, including their prep time, for me to even consider it. And I'd expect a well done game for that, with solid prep, customized plot, no railroading, etc.

If someone wouldn't do that, I'll stick with the guys that are doing it for the love of it.

Honest Tiefling
2018-01-24, 06:51 PM
...for you to pay for a DM? What kind of gaming experience could a DM provide that you would find worth paying $5-10 a session for?

1) Location. Either be willing to come to my place, or have a place to run the game. I would not want to have the game run at a restaurant or cafe with limited space or a lot of noise.

2) Above and beyond work. I think you should play into your strengths, whatever they are. But fantastic writing, models or an interactive map would be nice. Having some sort of way to communicate outside of the game might be vital.

4) Run an event. I could see going to a game store and paying some money for a game, not unlike some Magic the Gathering events. I mean, good way to meet new people after all. I wonder if you could get a game store to agree to that...

Quertus
2018-01-24, 07:01 PM
A smoking hot red head that played completely naked.

Other than that, I wouldn't pay to play.


I would pay $5-$10 a session to attend a convention where those dollars also give access to everything else at the convention.

I would pay $5-$10 for a campaign, as that could be splitting the cost of an adventure pack.

So, I was going to say that I wouldn't. Because it should be a labor of love, and anything else would ruin the flavor or the dish.

But you guys made me reconsider that stance.

Yes, I might pay for a module that I would then own, to get someone else to run it for me.

Yes, in my younger years, I would pay for a convention ticket to get to play with a wider audience, and learn all the gaming theory I could.

Yes, I guess I might actually pay the right redhead for such a game, if they were doing it for the right reason, and the game was truly top notch (or if I was the wingman for a lesbian who was actively interested in the GM).

But, other than that? Hmmm... The game would need some utterly amazing perk, like not yet on the market fully immersive mind-reading VR or something.

Otherwise, no, free wins. Or, if I have to, I could just run a game myself.

Segev
2018-01-24, 07:32 PM
My suggestion, given the cultural expectation that gaming is a social activity one does with friends and/or otherwise doesn't pay (directly) for, is to consider other ways to monetize than by directly charging for GMing.

The first thing that comes to mind is conventions. Conventions provide a venue and a huge pool of players, and people pay to go to the convention, and then sometimes pay to sit at a particular module. Now, the GMs themselves are rarely paid, but that's not the point, here. The point is that people are willing to spend money to game, provided it's in a venue where they expect to pay for the privilege of attending.

Another thing to consider is the fact that movie theaters in America and karaoke bars in Japan don't really make that much money on the tickets to see the movies or use the rooms; they make a lot of their money on concessions and the like. If you're providing a venue, you can charge for snacks or even meals. One way to do it would be to serve dinner at your games, requiring a buy-in to the food pool for a plate, and that it is part of the gaming experience in general. Don't overtly charge for the game, and even frame the meal buy-in as "contributing to the food pool." This does mean that, now, you're providing two services, though: either ordering a meal or cooking one yourself, AND running a game. If you wanted to make a business out of this, I'd suggest a "gaming restaurant," where you had GMs who would run a game while waiters catered to the players, or where you rented gaming rooms to people, with optional GM provision by the store.

Gaming stores also often have gaming tables set up, and allow people to run games there. Sometimes, the store owner even runs games in a pick-up sort of way. This brings in players to participate, and customers who buy dice and books and the like. And many game stores have a fridge and snack shelf that charges less than a vending machine for a can of soda, a bag of chips, or a candybar or the like.

The latter two illustrate some means of secondarily monetizing games. You might be able, for instance, to convince a game store owner to pay you to run your game at his store if you agree to take new players if there's fewer than X at your table on a given night, or something. You'd run regularly, bringing customers there, and providing a demonstration of the game to newbies and hopefully getting them interested in buying gaming books, dice, etc.

But you're unlikely to convince players to just pay you directly, unless you go set it up as a venue type situation. It's just counter to the cultural expectations.

Mordar
2018-01-25, 12:27 PM
But you're unlikely to convince players to just pay you directly, unless you go set it up as a venue type situation. It's just counter to the cultural expectations.

I do like the idea of a specialized gaming space. I agree with others above who said that a pro-GM needs to be running the game in an appropriate space - a private residence, meeting room, etc - free from distractions of other people. The problem I have, though, is the trappings.

I think I get the spirit of your idea, but I feel the scale is a difficulty. Movie theaters pay out huge money for property, staff, etc...and have to make that back by charging 1700% on candy. And tons of us either skip the concession stand, bring in our own clandestine snacks, or only go for the "loyalty" cups/bags for soda and popcorn. So I think a stiff mark-up on pre-packaged snacks would be a tough sell...and would get progressively tougher if patrons become "regulars". Prepared food opens up a whole host of food code and legal issues that no one should want to run afoul of, much less a non-food professional. So I think that is kind of a non-starter.

On the other hand, some nice capital outlay might create a gaming space people are willing to pay to patronize. I can imagine a few different versions, using either technology or good old fashion...technology...to present a gaming experience. Sound system, projectors, nice meeting chairs, a solid table, all of the accouterments. Add in proper decor, a game-appropriate library (dead trees and/or digital), dedicated rest room, etc., and you're set. It was kind of what I meant by "physical space and environment for play" that such a contractor should provide...but this is more fully stated.

So I do think there is resistance to the idea...but I think there is plenty of evidence in other fields that things could evolve to move this to reality. Anyone can exercise for free. Many of those anyones pay to join a facility/gym/club that they can then use to exercise in specific ways. Some of those anyones then pay even more so they can take special classes or attend special events at those facilities. And a few of those anyones even pay for specialized, personalized exercise experiences on an ongoing basis. Home game, playing at a store or club with an entrance fee (or concessions), playing at a convention, playing with a contracted GM.

But as always, the product has to be good or it just won't sell. And then it still takes excellent promotion, proper demographics and good presentation.

I wonder about the level of expectation on the part of the GM...I would have to think "supplemental income", not "primary" for certain. Realistically, maybe 2-3 full time games would be all that a person should handle. I'd like 4 players, but I bet it could tolerate 6. Assuming 4 sessions per month, that is 16 - 24 tickets per game. I like the $20 price point for both a presumption of quality and a degree of commitment, so that's $320 - 480 per game, so $620/960 - 960/1440 per month. Not exactly a living wage. But maybe a nice way to pay for a cool game room, fund discretionary purchases and pay for trips to conventions without having to shoestring.

- M

oxybe
2018-01-25, 12:36 PM
I'll give my very rambly 2 copper pieces on the subject.

At 5-10$ a session (assuming this is per player), and each session being about 3-5 hours once a week, 4 sessions a month (assuming all goes well), we're looking at between 20-40$ a month for about 16 hours of content (knowing that my friend also offers to me a similar experience for free) that needs to be scheduled. It sounds rather innocuous and a steal for me as a consumer.

However there are "hidden" costs associated. There are always "hidden" costs.

Do I supply the module? Since I am on vacation this week, I dragged myself to the FLGS I haven't been to in ages to say hi to my old group (that i haven't seen since forever as I work nights) and ended up buying an old Dark Sun module for $20, Freedom. So if I'm expected to provide the adventure, my expenditure for the experience just had an extra $20 tacked onto it.

What about food? Am I to provide for the GM depending on the time the session is setup with? Go halfsies? If so, we can probably tack on another $10 per session for delivery, unless "You get peanut butter toast and access to the instant coffee and whatever oreos are left, same as everyone else" count as supplying food. Cause mom's meat pies are Oxybe's exclusive nom-noms. We'll say I don't want to do a 1-on-1 so we'll toss in a 3 more friends to lessen the pizza fees (so instead of going 50-50 on a $20 pizza, it's split 5 ways)

Using my mom who lives out of town as a segue into another potential example, thus what if I need to bum a ride/pay for a bus ticket, am I expected to pay for the GM's transportation costs? When I used to live further out of town, my old GM would pick me up before & after the game and I'd pitch in some gas money out of courtesy for him going a bit out of his way. I know he'd do it for free, but a fiver's nothing big all things considered, and gas is stupid expensive. Wait the game isn't going to be at my cramped-for-5-people apartment living room? does that mean I have to foot another $13 a session in personal taxi fare?

So yeah, this $20-$40 a month for a game has potentially gone up to $92-$112 (13 for taxi + 4 for pizza + 1 for gas + 5-10 for the GM means the actual costs to me can go up to $23-28 per D&D session) with a one-time $20 fee for the module. so at a potential $112-$132 for that first month's 16 hours of playtime... can you offer me an experience that's worth that amount?. On the slightly more reasonable low end costs, at $5-$10 for the GM + $4 for the pizza + $1 for GM travel feels we're now looking at $10-$15 per head, per session, which still amounts to $40-$60 a month with an initial $20 module cost (I'm assuming one non-GM person in the group will foot the cost for the module, if a module is played, otherwise once over, who gets to keep the module?).

Just to get an idea of what that minimum amount entails, most Switch games I've bought are in the $80 (Canadian dollars) category (which after taxes comes to about $90). LoZ: BotW, Mario Odyssey & Xenoblade Chronicles all have 40+ hours of playtime (BotW is sitting at 250+) that I can play whenever I want. $40-$60 per month with a $20 for the module looks very close to that in my eyes, especially since i'm getting like 16-20 hours of playtime a month. Note that this more reasonable number isn't a downside, as I have no qualms paying the $40-$60 for a good 16-20 hour videogame: this figure for a monthly GM rate is easily within my expectations for entertainment.

But now that I know the actual price for that service, I'll further ask about this pay-for-play TTRPG... how curated is the experience? How does this GM's game differ from a videogame?

Since I'm the one paying for the session, does that mean rule 0 is in my hands instead of the GM's? If the GM goes "there are no elves in my world" am I allowed to go "I am paying for your services, yes to elves"? How about ruling issues... Can I overturn this GM's ruling if I don't like it? What about dictating certain house rules or denying them? If we're not playing a module, can I decide "We're doing a Dark Sun game"? What about "We're doing an Eberron Game with an all-warforged party"? "Roll mouse skulls exclusively" (http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Penny-Arcade-The-Way-Forward.jpg)?

If you're going to offer me a service that could potentially cost me as much, if not more, as a new videogame every month, but without the sweet graphics, beautiful audio and responsive & engaging gameplay (because I'll be frank, most TTRPGs are at best mediocre in the Game department, and most GMs I've met are not artists of the visual or audio type), what are you offering me that the videogame cannot to be worth my money and how much input can I have in that content? I know with a videogame it's already made and the content has been curated & tuned for a certain experience (post-release patches not withstanding), but a TTRPG is an ongoing and largely personal thing (with, hopefully, a bit more agency on the player's part then your typical JRPG in linearity and more options on how to address an encounter then, say, Breath of the Wild)... so as the one footing the bill for this ongoing development what's my input in the whole thing?

Finally, the big one:

How can I tell you're going to be good? Not just the quality of the game you're offering, but also personality wise, if you'll fit in with me and my friends?

For those three Switch games I mentioned, I have enough of a history with Nintendo to know Mario & Zelda's tropes and the overall quality of the games were going to be fantastic, the gameplay videos just confirmed my suspicions. I watched some Xenoblade play and that's what convinced me it would scratch that JRPG itch.

But getting a preview of the game you're offering... do you have recordings of your sessions that will show me that it typically entails? As a consumer looking for entertainment: what does your 4 hours of paid D&D offer me that 4 hours of Mario Odyssey (probably played in my underwear, in my bed) or 4 hours of my buddy's free D&D does not?

Because yesterday night, when I went to see them at the FLGS, my old group wrapped up a module they were working on and are pitching non-pathfinder (colour me flabbergasted with this group) games of 5th ed "build a frontier town" game set in the Warhammer 'verse during the Age of Sigmar, a Mass Effect game set during ME1 using the Fantasy Flight Star Wars game engine and a Call of Cthulu set in the 1920's New England. All those sound pretty freaking neato and I just got an email from workforce saying they approved a schedule change request (it'll take a few weeks, but whatever). And I've been with these guys for years before my sabbatical. I know what to expect.

That's the free content our pay-to-play GM is up against... Can he deliver?

Note that the above is assuming a home/FLGS game, over something like a convention. Conventions don't exist in my neck of the "area i'm willing to hoof to / pay a taxi to get to".

Jay R
2018-01-25, 05:50 PM
As long as I have intelligent, competent, well-organized, passionate friends who are willing to DM, or I'm willing to be the DM, there is no chance that I would pay somebody for it.

FabulousFizban
2018-01-26, 12:45 AM
a forest encounter i did. other pics of things ive done are unfortunately on a phone i lost. my intent was actually to try an build a client base online over roll20. thoughts?

http://i67.tinypic.com/212amog.jpg

jojo
2018-01-26, 02:28 AM
My short answer is that:

No, I would not pay a DM $5-$10 per Session.

My somewhat longer answer is that:

No, I would not pay a DM $5-$10 per session. Even at $10/Player per Session that's only $40-$60/week per Campaign. Facilitating a fun and enjoyable experience for the group takes a lot longer than just the 6-8 hours that everyone spends sitting around the table. I value my time a lot more highly than that and I run Campaigns for free, as a result there's no way I'd pay someone who valued their time so cheaply.

In my own experience however most DMs, as well as players, are getting right around $40-$60 in value per session per Campaign anyway. First there is the cost of meals/snacks to consider, generally the group pools their money together so that everyone can share at least a bag of Tostitos and a few beverages (adult or otherwise.) For a group of 4-6 players and a DM this quickly adds up to $40-$60/session. So what is actually being asked of me is that I pay $10-20 per session. That quickly becomes an investment that I'm not willing to make each month before we even factor in the price of sourcebooks, any necessary travel and all those additional back-end costs.

The final, most important consideration is that I am an experienced DM/GM as are several other members of my primary gaming group, so even with the increasing limitations on our time as we get older there's really very little reason to consider this.

So the question becomes:

Would I pay a professional DM? If so what would I expect?

Like most other commenters I would absolutely pay for a professional DM/GM experience in the form of Convention Tickets, and have done so in the past.

If I had been asked prior to reading this thread whether or not I'd pay for a seat at a Celebrity GM (such as Matt Mercer or the guys from Nerdarchy) I would have said yes. However after reading the thread I'm thinking no, mostly because the players showing up are what allows those DMs to make and then monetize their videos.

A couple of things I would expect if I were willing to pay for a professional DM experience:

1. A dedicated gaming facility. Good atmosphere, custom-table, comfortable accoutrements, tons of swag on display and big comfy chairs. Basically everything you see on a monetized youtube channel.

2. No unpublished (homebrew) content. Published 3rd party that the DM in question either created or contributed to? Totally cool. Stuff the DM is working on or creating for their own personal use? Totally not cool.

3. Communication. I would expect to be able to reach the DM and other players during normal business hours with questions/concerns.

4. All sourcebooks provided by the DM. An open facility to make use of those sourcebooks, at least two or three days a week during normal business hours.

5. Access to a wide variety of systems and campaign settings across various editions. Not just "DnD 5E."

6. Non-refundable deposit to support the enforcement of rules/conditions/standards of participation so that disruptive players can be refused service.

7. Steeply discounted first sessions to encourage participation and experimentation.

8. Slightly discounted "one-shot" sessions available.

9. Association with at least one or two other DM/GMs of similar quality.

If I were going to pay to play (I'm not) I'd probably be willing to pay around $100/session/player under those conditions. If that DM ran 3 sessions a week with 4 players each they'd pull in $1200 before taxes or $4,800/month which isn't a bad salary. I just can't see settling for anything less as I mentioned above.

Segev
2018-01-26, 12:17 PM
On the other hand, some nice capital outlay might create a gaming space people are willing to pay to patronize. I can imagine a few different versions, using either technology or good old fashion...technology...to present a gaming experience. Sound system, projectors, nice meeting chairs, a solid table, all of the accouterments. Add in proper decor, a game-appropriate library (dead trees and/or digital), dedicated rest room, etc., and you're set. It was kind of what I meant by "physical space and environment for play" that such a contractor should provide...but this is more fully stated.

So I do think there is resistance to the idea...but I think there is plenty of evidence in other fields that things could evolve to move this to reality. Anyone can exercise for free. Many of those anyones pay to join a facility/gym/club that they can then use to exercise in specific ways. Some of those anyones then pay even more so they can take special classes or attend special events at those facilities. And a few of those anyones even pay for specialized, personalized exercise experiences on an ongoing basis. Home game, playing at a store or club with an entrance fee (or concessions), playing at a convention, playing with a contracted GM.It might be more feasible to start a "gaming club" that has actual dues, which then buys facilities, rents rooms (cheaper to members, maybe even free), and has libraries of gaming books and dice available.

The trick is that you're going to have to achieve a level of professionalism that makes people feel like they're paying for something more than they can get for free.


a forest encounter i did. other pics of things ive done are unfortunately on a phone i lost. my intent was actually to try an build a client base online over roll20. thoughts?

http://i67.tinypic.com/212amog.jpgThis'd be a very tough sell online. The fact is that people who game online can almost always find a game to play. Your paid-for game is unlikely to be more accessible in time slot.

If you really think it's entertaining enough to get people to pay, then you could potentially make it entertaining enough to get viewers, if you recorded it and then posted videos of your game sessions. Then you could run a youtube channel for monetization, and possibly start a patreon.

Another thing you could do is run your games, then make videos about them. Make a blog or vlog and build up a broad audience. If you gain a reputation and fan-base, then those fans might start being willing to pay for you to run games. The trick here is that you need to make you being the GM be something special to enough people that they'd pay for the privilege. You're marketing yourself, at that point. So you need to build a reputation as a minor internet celebrity known for your gaming-related content.

Look at the various games run by famous people for other famous people which have large audiences for their games. See what they're known for, individually, and find a subject you think you can write and perform good, engaging content with, and build your net presence around that.

Rhedyn
2018-01-27, 11:00 PM
The time commitment I would want is beyond the amount I'm willing to pay.

Such a GM would probably have to be a professional demo-er. As in they run one shots for a particular game that people pay money to play, but the GM is also paid by the company to promote the game.

As a side gig instead, I could see a GM maybe raking in a couple hundred each week while using those groups to help flesh out her own setting that she then publishes. Sessions should probably be 4 hours each and good.

Pleh
2018-01-28, 11:02 AM
The conversation reminds me of my local comic book store.

They have a small selection of a variety of popular RPG sourcebooks, plus miniatures and popular comic books and graphic novels. They also keep space in the back for hosting games, so they can build up local market interest by throwing a promotional game, or they let groups reserve the space for a game (I think it's free until the booking gets full, at which point they might ask a rental fee to help account for volume and facility overhead), or sometimes hosting an event like a small, local convention.

A lot of people have commented that there is a dichotomy between the "labor of love between friends" mindset and the "paying for a service" mindset.

I agree with assessments of this phenomenon, but I would add that keeping your business small scale and relationships with clients semi personal will alleviate the friction some.

Hosting a free game out of a local storefront is a smart marketing strategy. Someone forgot their books/dice at home? We pull some of the discount (low quality) material from the shelf and let them borrow it for the night. If they get attached to the product, they can buy it (or buy it later when they come back, if they forgot their wallet, too).

The important thing to remember is that this is all investments in marketing. You aren't trying to profit from the game directly, but to encourage people to invest their interest into the game, then you sell them the product they need to pursue the interest you helped cultivate.

For bigger events, like conventions, the attendance fee is mostly to cover the added burden of cleanup, staffing the event (either in place or in addition to regular business), setup/tear down, and marketing the event. You don't want people feeling burdened by the entry cost. Keep it pretty minimal. Let the merch sell itself.

If that isn't viable for whatever reason (maybe your players go home and buy from cheaper online competition), then yeah, maybe that's just the real problem with the entire concept of asking money for this kind of thing to begin with.

Mutazoia
2018-01-29, 03:09 AM
The only time I've seen anything even remotely like this work, was a long time, dedicated group who had "dues" that they would pay every week. But those dues paid for pizza and drinks for the group, and none of it went into the DMs pocket.

In this current climate of "professional gamers", where people get "paid" to play video games, I can see where the idea that you can make a living running TTRPGs might seem like it would work. But it won't. Too many free free to play games in the world, and I doubt you're such an awesome, peerless DM that people be willing to give you money, just for the privilege of sitting at your table and soaking in your Godlike DMing abilities. (not saying that you think you are...just saying that is what it would take to actually get paid to DM.)

Honestly, you would have to have a mini-holodeck built into your table or something to even consider trying.

SirGraystone
2018-01-29, 10:36 AM
Let say 10$ a session with 5 players so 50$, average a session at 4 hours, add a few more hours of preparation, that mean a GM would get less then 10$ an hour and that's not even counting the books and things he got to buy to play.

At that price, don't ask for a professional GM with voice acting and all kind of stuff, you can get an everyday GM who'll do his best to build an enjoyable adventure. If you are unhappy with the experience, thanks him for his effort give him the 10$ and don't come back the next week.

Florian
2018-01-29, 11:06 AM
...for you to pay for a DM? What kind of gaming experience could a DM provide that you would find worth paying $5-10 a session for? (EDIT: per person)

I would gladly dish out 10 Euros when that gives me beer or whiskey equal to 10 Euros in return (Yes, no Four Roses).

Ask the reverse question: If GMíng is so much fun, how much would you pay each player to attend a session? Doesn't make sense? Same with the initial question.

Potato_Priest
2018-01-29, 11:16 AM
If they had good players and weren't a "Gotcha" DM then I'd probably fork over the money. All the DM's that I've met in my area are either terrible railroaders or use lots of "Gotcha's" and I hate both these things. Likewise, I haven't found a large enough group of players that I like to make a game that I DM myself. No gaming is better than bad gaming so I'm between campaigns at the moment, but good gaming is better than no gaming and I'd be willing to pay for it.

Faily
2018-01-29, 08:20 PM
The closest thing I've been to paying for someone to GM for me has been paying the yearly fee to our local gaming club. It's not paying someone to GM, as such, but the membership fee goes to paying for the locale, nescessary administrative stuff that comes with having a club (always there is *some* paperwork), and the rest of the money goes to the club to buy games (roleplaying games and boardgames) as well as events like camping trips with LARP-themes and such.

However, even if I had no need for the games they provided, and hardly the space as well (we play almost exclusively in our apartment these past years), I liked to contribute to it because the place was an important after-school activity for younger people, and I supported bringing more people into the nerdy hobby and meeting new people.

I will probably never pay to play at a convention, as I would not feel comfortable gaming with complete strangers. I mean, just judging by all the horror stories I read on this forum, I must have hit some sort of incredibly lucky streak to play almost exclusively with decent players and GMs.

So, no, I would not pay for someone to GM for me, because I know incredibly talented GMs who do it for free. And we repay eachother back by being excellent to eachother (the occassional movie-outing, baked goods, food, birthday presents). When running Pathfinder campaigns, we all contribute to buying the published APs. BWR and I already buy a lot of the books anyway, and we host most games, so we contribute a lot there.

Segev
2018-01-30, 01:23 PM
Finally saw the picture of the misty forest fight-map. That is cool-looking.

You're actually more likely to make money selling items like that, than selling the running of the game. Or, better still, selling plans for items like that, which you could put into PDFs for $3-$5 a pop on drivethrurpg. With maybe an order form for getting a completed one shipped.

Be sure you know your costs and your hourly labor fees, though, or you'll not make the money you should. Marketing will also be key.

Jay R
2018-01-30, 07:24 PM
To quote the old saw in a new context, "Why buy a cow when milk is free?"

graymagiker
2018-02-03, 10:12 PM
2 things that probably make the rest of my answer not very helpful.

I enjoy GMing more than playing, so I am not in the market for a GM
Money is tight so $40/month (assuming 4 gaming sessions) is a decent hit in the budget


That being said, here are some things that I would absolutely need in order to fork over the $10/game:

Consistency. Baring severe illness or emergency, the game happens when it is scheduled every week (or however often it is scheduled). This includes other players no canceling my game just because Joe didn't show up this week or didn't have his $10.
Rules are transparent and house rules are minimal or non-existent. I'm old enough that I don't tolerate a bunch of "custom rules" that are only announced when they come up in free games. I darn sure won't tolerate it in a paid game.
GM must know the system front and back. GM should be able and willing to handle all rules not on the character sheet.


One last thing is I'd like the ability to "try before I buy" also. First session free then you either sign up for a month or not, maybe? I'd say videos of past sessions, but I won't watch them because that's too much work and I can just buy a six pack with my $10. Reviews are nice, but just because 4 other groups loved Mr Professional GM's games and would have paid $50 a game to get the same experience doesn't tell me if I will like playing with this GM.

Segev
2018-02-05, 12:13 PM
I'll re-iterate that, given that the props seem to be the biggest selling point the OP has listed - and that foggy forest encounter is impressive-looking in that photo - what he may wish to consider making a business of is selling those. Sell plans for making them, and then offer to build and ship them for a higher price point.

2D8HP
2018-02-05, 01:12 PM
Hahahahahahahaha....

Just a moment please...

Hahahahahahaha!

Oh your killin' me..

Hahahah!

Okay I think I....

Ahahahahaha!

*splashes cold water on face*

*Dries face and eyes*

Oh, that's a good one!


Okay, seriously provide some corned beef with good mustard, some nice brown ale, Helen Mirren, Liam Neeson, Thandie Newton, and/or Patrick Stewart to act out NPC's and I may pay that and more, but really?

Velaryon
2018-02-05, 01:54 PM
I would not pay to play in a game for any reason or any amount of money. I am categorically uninterested in such, and there isn't anything the DM could reasonably provide as part of the gaming experience that would entice me.

I am perfectly happy to pay for food, drinks, gaming supplies, etc. as part of the game, but that is not paying the DM for providing the services of DMing.

Segev
2018-02-05, 03:06 PM
I would not pay to play in a game for any reason or any amount of money. I am categorically uninterested in such, and there isn't anything the DM could reasonably provide as part of the gaming experience that would entice me.

I am perfectly happy to pay for food, drinks, gaming supplies, etc. as part of the game, but that is not paying the DM for providing the services of DMing.
Out of curiosity, have you ever paid to attend a gaming convention?

Wasteomana
2018-02-05, 04:52 PM
I'll come at this from a slightly different angle.

I run two games that I am paid to run. The first is a game that has been going on for about 6 years (7 years in April) which plays every other week for 6 hours and they pay me $10/hour (6 players for 6 hours, so $10 per person per session or $1.67/person/hour).

The second game I run is a Warhammer 40k Only War game which has 5 players, runs every other week for 4 hours and pays $15/hour (5 players for 4 hours, so $12 per person per session or $3/person/hour).

I've also run at a lot of conventions and whatnot with the advantage being free ticket/games/hotel stay at the convention with one of the bigger outfits or directly through the convention. I've also been hired as a personal DM for a full week at a convention before where a group of 6 people paid for my hotel stay and basically had me run whatever they wanted me to run for the week leading up to Gencon and then be on-call for Gencon itself. On top of the hotel stay and them paying for my meals they paid $200/day for a week.

So with that established let me give my views on paid to play. First off I would be unlikely to pay to play in a game. I don't have any problem with the system and I have the income to support it, but the major factors of why people pay me don't apply to me when I play games. Secondly, I do play and I do run games for free on a pretty regular basis. It would say that about one-third to one-half of my typical months worth of gaming is paid DMing.

So... why do people pay? There are a few different reasons for the ones that I've run.

The Gencon thing was an instance where I ran for a group of guys during a thing called "D&D All Access" one year and they really enjoyed having me as a DM. Their particular group of people only saw each other every year at Gencon and so they were willing to shell out a bunch of extra money in order to make it a special experience. I think, for them, the cost of putting me up at the con and having me on retainer was roughly what it cost them to play in All Access the year before and it was a better experience for them as it allowed them to play whatever game they wanted, whenever they wanted during the con and could count on the person running the game running it in a way they knew they would enjoy. The guy footing the bill (and I do say the group, but I'm reasonably sure one guy paid for most everything) was very wealthy and this experience was worth it for him to pay to play games and enjoy the time with his friends. Basically they had the money to do it, a limited time to be able to play, and wanted to shell out the extra money to make it a cool experience.

The Warhammer 40k thing hits on some similar notes. One of the players makes a good income and is the one who foots the bill. For him $120/month isn't that much money to devote to his hobby. But where the other guys were paying for a reliably good experience, he is paying more for the reliable part than the other pieces. His gaming group has moved all over the continent and wants to keep gaming with them. They have had some bad experiences with DMs being interested and then the game fizzling because of lack of commitment from the DM. He knows if he pays me, I'll show up and because I'm getting paid for it I schedule my time to spend running and prepping for them differently than I would if it was not something I was getting paid to do.

The Sunday game is the only group that I know splits the bill. They played with me for years before deciding to start paying me. One of the reasons they decided to start paying for the game was because I was getting paid to run a lot of other things and they decided as a group that they were getting enough fun out of the game to be worth paying for it. From what I remember of the discussion, and its been 4 or 5 years now, they compared the cost of playing in one of my games to the cost of going to the movie theater and agreed it was better fun to money or fun to time ratio than the movies which they all enjoyed.

For me, I don't have a group of gamers that I've played with for years and want to keep the team together. I've usually been the DM. I don't have a very limited amount of time where everyone is free due to crazy adult schedules (like the Warhammer or Gencon group) and feel the need to pay for the extra layer of reliability. If I want to play a game, I find a game to play in and I sit and play. Recently, the past 2 years or so, that means just dropping into Roll20 games with The Guild where they have more games than I could possibly play in a week.

Hope this helped and added to the conversation in a meaningful way.

2D8HP
2018-02-05, 05:03 PM
Out of curiosity, have you ever paid to attend a gaming convention?


I honestly don't remember if I payed or not for the DunDraCon's that I attended in the very late 1970's and very early '80's, when I was a kid, but I absolutely remember that a DunDraCon that I attended around 1990 or so, I didn't pay to get in, played a couple of games, tried to sleep in the camper or my regular DM's pick-up truck (I arrived by motorcycle, which is hard to sleep in), gave up as the parking lot was too noisy, went back to the convention hall, found an unused table with a long table cloth, slept on the floor underneath it, gamed some more, and then rode my bike to work, probably smelling bad.

Adventurous times!

Segev
2018-02-06, 11:22 AM
I honestly don't remember if I payed or not for the DunDraCon's that I attended in the very late 1970's and very early '80's, when I was a kid, but I absolutely remember that a DunDraCon that I attended around 1990 or so, I didn't pay to get in, played a couple of games, tried to sleep in the camper or my regular DM's pick-up truck (I arrived by motorcycle, which is hard to sleep in), gave up as the parking lot was too noisy, went back to the convention hall, found an unused table with a long table cloth, slept on the floor underneath it, gamed some more, and then rode my bike to work, probably smelling bad.

Adventurous times!

Neat! Sadly, conventions tend to be pricey these days.

I asked not to try to claim anything about your choices, but just because I find it interesting what people WILL pay for. GenCon is enormously expensive to attend, and often you have to pay more still to get into certain gaming events (I'm looking at you, PF society...or at least certain PF society tables). And people DO pay for it. But I'm honestly surprised any of the people here get paid for GMing; Wasteomana's story is unique in my experience.

And it really comes down to expectations. People accept that conventions charge. GenCon isn't just covering costs; it MAKES money every year, to my knowledge. It's a successful business in its own right.

Mordar
2018-02-06, 02:14 PM
Neat! Sadly, conventions tend to be pricey these days.

I asked not to try to claim anything about your choices, but just because I find it interesting what people WILL pay for. GenCon is enormously expensive to attend, and often you have to pay more still to get into certain gaming events (I'm looking at you, PF society...or at least certain PF society tables). And people DO pay for it. But I'm honestly surprised any of the people here get paid for GMing; Wasteomana's story is unique in my experience.

And it really comes down to expectations. People accept that conventions charge. GenCon isn't just covering costs; it MAKES money every year, to my knowledge. It's a successful business in its own right.

I think it is a bit of a false lead to really even bring the convention experience into this discussion. GenCon is a trade show. You are paying to attend a trade show, and yes, you do pay an extra premium to participate in certain events...but that is an add on to the trade show and very little, if any, of that extra premium is passed on to the GM. [Aside: I GMed at a couple GenCons back in Kenosha and got an actual check for real money for it. As I recall, that stopped when it moved to Milwaukee and then I got a discount on my admission]

I think it is very much akin to paying $12 for $0.25 of popcorn at a movie. You paid for the admission to the movie and then as an add-on you got a snack...and paid FAR more for it than you would have under normal circumstances. In part because it is "part of the experience" and in part because you're not supposed to bring in your own treats. Additionally, that $12 goes to pay for the theater, the employees, the electricity, all that stuff...including some potential profit for the owners. That's the same thing the premium you pay to play in an event covers. [Aside 2: I would love to see documentation/financials for GenCon...I would expect it doesn't make much at all, though that may have changed from the olden days when it was kind of a loss-leader]

All that being said, I agree with your point that it is interesting what people will pay for and what they won't when they think they can get it for free (or cheap).

- M

Faily
2018-02-06, 02:40 PM
The times I've paid to play:

- attend GenCon. I went to the workshops and a LARP-event, but mostly checked out the stalls and booths to find cool stuff for sale, as well as support my artist-friends.
- attending cardgame (Legend of the Five Rings) tournaments. The fee covers the cost of prize-support and booking the venue. L5R to me is like paying for a weekend of drinking in a foreign country with friends, the cardboard-flipping is an added bonus, and having been on the organizing team I know that TOs aren't turning a profit, but are trying to cover the costs.

inexorabletruth
2018-02-07, 05:11 PM
It would be worth it was for a good cause:


Dungeons and Dyslexia! Kick in the Doors of reading Disorders!

Dungeons and Dragon Chasers! Help build better treatment facilities for those seeking to break the chains of addictions!

Or, I'd pay if the DM were a celebrity. I'd be down paying at the door to jaunt through a campaign with Rich Burlew.

Florian
2018-02-07, 05:34 PM
Out of curiosity, have you ever paid to attend a gaming convention?

Not really.

I´ve paid to visit certain trade fairs (Spiel in Essen as an example), not for gaming, but for the chance to get in touch with companies and creators.

The few times I attended gaming conventions in my youth, it was mainly as gm so I was waived any kinds of fees and often had a small Grog/Grub budget to boot.

Jay R
2018-02-07, 06:19 PM
Out of curiosity, have you ever paid to attend a gaming convention?

Yes, but I'm not paying for DMing services, even if I have to pay to get in a game.


I've paid to share a venue with lots of gamers, but I'm not paying gamers to converse with me or play with me.

I've paid in order to rent a large hall where vendors can bring their products, but I'm not paying vendors to come try to sell to me.

And I have paid extra to take part in an organized game, which helps pay for the venue, the table and chair rental, etc., but I'm not paying the DM for his work.

Segev
2018-02-07, 06:23 PM
Yes, but I'm not paying for DMing services, even if I have to pay to get in a game.


I've paid to share a venue with lots of gamers, but I'm not paying gamers to converse with me or play with me.

I've paid in order to rent a large hall where vendors can bring their products, but I'm not paying vendors to come try to sell to me.

And I have paid extra to take part in an organized game, which helps pay for the venue, the table and chair rental, etc., but I'm not paying the DM for his work.

This is a very helpful answer, because it reveals what people WILL pay for (well, what one person will, but Jay R is voicing what I think a lot of people unconsciously use to judge whether they'll pay for it or not).

If you can sell these things, with your DMing as a hook to draw people in, this is how you can make money DMing.