Recommended Combat Druid spells?

[Miko_Kira]

I've got a 6th level druid and I'm not sure where to go with spells. He's a Goliath Druid archetype and his stats are built as such;
Str 19 Int 10
Dex 14 Wis 14
Con 14 Cha 10

Feats;
1- Toughness
3- Power Attack
5- Heavy Armor Proficiency

I'm building to focus on wild shape (troll favored), and hitting like a well armored tank. What would you guys recommend as far as spells go, from 1st to 4th lvls?
Also, I realize his Wis is 14, but I was recommended to this as he's focused on combat, with minimal casting.

[Geddy2112]

Your ability scores look solid. Did you go companion or domain? Strength and destruction are both pretty zesty domains for a melee character. That said, using enlarge person on megafauna is also bonkers good and probably a better choice. I would normally think you are crazy to take heavy armor prof over natural spell as your 5th level feat, but since you are only going to be giant shaping dragonhide plate or stoneplate makes sense.

For spells, you can't beat magic fang and greater as an opening combat buff, particularly if you are out of charge range. With your level, it might be worth it to cast greater magic fang on yourself 2-3 times a day to avoid needing an AoMF.Even if you are using a weapon, your animal companion loves it as a buff and you can keep it up all day using all your 3rd level slots. Even with the lower DC, entangle is nothing to sneeze at. Faerie fire is one of the best spells in the game and with your high perception and possible extra senses(namely scent, but there are others) you can often ping where invisible enemies are hiding and spotlight them. Snowball is really powerful ranged touch unless you only get to use the newer nonstagger version. As always, SNA is great to get flanking buddies/meatshields.Another all day buff is negate aroma, and while you can't really hide as a giant it makes you hard to track, and if you can get invisibility from an arcane caster then you become much harder to find. Ironskin and resist energy are good defensive buffs for combat as well.

Siphon might is a good way to buff yourself in combat while debuffing your enemy. That said, it won't stack with a strength belt but you can always slap the strength boost on your companion. At 4th level you get echolocation, which has a decent duration and grants blindsight, making it almost impossible for something to hide from you.

[Miko_Kira]

I'm going with the rage subdomain. Got too many halflings in the party to worry about an animal companion getting hungry for one of em'.

[Geddy2112]

I'm going with the rage subdomain. Got too many halflings in the party to worry about an animal companion getting hungry for one of em'.

HA! I greatly respect that, that your megafauna might snack on one. Rage is a really strong choice for a beatstick, and destruction/destructive smite to boot. The spells are solid but lose steam over time vs just wailing on something. Rage and bulls strength are just stopgaps that will become outdated. Moonstruck and shout are meh, but true strike is good.The high level domain spells are very good choices.

Since goliath druid can lose a prepared spell to cast enlarge person, see if you can lose a domain prepared spell-normally you can't for things like SNA for druids or cure/inflict spells for clerics, but it does not explicitly state. Might be worth running by your DM as you could burn some of your meh domain spells to enlarge. Enlarge person is not a polymorph spell so it will stack on your wild shape for getting swole.

[Gnaeus]

Your ability scores look solid. Did you go companion or domain? Strength and destruction are both pretty zesty domains for a melee character. That said, using enlarge person on megafauna is also bonkers good and probably a better choice. I would normally think you are crazy to take heavy armor prof over natural spell as your 5th level feat, but since you are only going to be giant shaping dragonhide plate or stoneplate makes sense.

For spells, you can't beat magic fang and greater as an opening combat buff, particularly if you are out of charge range. With your level, it might be worth it to cast greater magic fang on yourself 2-3 times a day to avoid needing an AoMF.Even if you are using a weapon, your animal companion loves it as a buff and you can keep it up all day using all your 3rd level slots. Even with the lower DC, entangle is nothing to sneeze at. Faerie fire is one of the best spells in the game and with your high perception and possible extra senses(namely scent, but there are others) you can often ping where invisible enemies are hiding and spotlight them. Snowball is really powerful ranged touch unless you only get to use the newer nonstagger version. As always, SNA is great to get flanking buddies/meatshields.Another all day buff is negate aroma, and while you can't really hide as a giant it makes you hard to track, and if you can get invisibility from an arcane caster then you become much harder to find. Ironskin and resist energy are good defensive buffs for combat as well.

Siphon might is a good way to buff yourself in combat while debuffing your enemy. That said, it won't stack with a strength belt but you can always slap the strength boost on your companion. At 4th level you get echolocation, which has a decent duration and grants blindsight, making it almost impossible for something to hide from you.

I mostly agree (you won’t want to SNA much with this kind of Druid build), but also.

Barkskin is great.
Longstrider or greater is long duration and helps you match the Barbarian you are mimicking
Life bubble is long duration
Resist energy helps you melee

Since you will be melee in combat, out of combat spells are also good for you. Stuff like water breathing, dispel magic or lesser restoration will free up spells for other party casters, who should be casting while in combat.

I interpret Combat Druid Spells as that you are a Druid who will be in melee, not that you are specifically looking for combat spells. Given that build, you actually want almost no combat spells. You want long term buffs and utility spells you cast when things are quiet. If you are in rounds you want to be hitting things not casting things.

[Miko_Kira]

According to Nature's Bond it acts as the Cleric's Domain, "Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously", So that eliminates that idea. Though I could shut down an enemy caster with that rage spell, right? Also in the spell Enlarge Person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person/), it says that multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. The Druid's wildshape is supernatural, and SU abilities are considered magical. Which really sucks, because a huge character with a shillelagh club would be so broken. Plus both sources are size bonuses, so only the greater of the two would work at one time.

[Gnaeus]

According to Nature's Bond it acts as the Cleric's Domain, "Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously", So that eliminates that idea. Though I could shut down an enemy caster with that rage spell, right? Also in the spell Enlarge Person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person/), it says that multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. The Druid's wildshape is supernatural, and SU abilities are considered magical. Which really sucks, because a huge character with a shillelagh club would be so broken. Plus both sources are size bonuses, so only the greater of the two would work at one time.

That’s not how I would read that. I would say that text is to prevent it from stacking with righteous might, or psionic expansion, or titanic rage. I would say that giant form isn’t an effect that increases size, it is an effect that turns you into a troll. And I note that enlarge person isn’t a polymorph effect. Imagine I was an ogre wizard. I cast giant form to turn into a different large giant. Then I cast enlarge person. Ask a DM.

[Eldonauran]

Wildshape is a supernatural ability that mimic (fuction identically to, except as noted) the various "blank"-form spells. It is just a longer duration version of the spell. You won't be able to use enlarge person while wildshaped (or you will but only the greater size increase will function).

[Miko_Kira]

That’s not how I would read that. I would say that text is to prevent it from stacking with righteous might, or psionic expansion, or titanic rage. I would say that giant form isn’t an effect that increases size, it is an effect that turns you into a troll. And I note that enlarge person isn’t a polymorph effect. Imagine I was an ogre wizard. I cast giant form to turn into a different large giant. Then I cast enlarge person. Ask a DM.

I'll ask my DM about it, but RAW, enlarge person would not stack with any effect that increases your size category, and if you wildshape into anything that's larger than your original size, it counts as an enlarging effect. Also in your scenario, you're already large to begin with, so Giant Form wouldn't count as an enlarging effect.

Edit; Just found some information about polymorph spells and wildshape. You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

[Geddy2112]

I mostly agree (you won’t want to SNA much with this kind of Druid build), but also.
Barkskin is great.
Longstrider or greater is long duration and helps you match the Barbarian you are mimicking

Man, I can't believe I forgot barkskin and longstrider. Good catch, and I second these wholeheartedly. I know you won't use SNA much, but goliath druid gets increased options and considering it can be spontaneously casted, it is something to keep in your toolbox. Summoned monsters are great at finding traps after all!


In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
It would have been nice for pathfinder to just list size changing spells and effects as polymorph instead of burying it a wall of text after "only one polymorph spell at a time". :smalltongue:

It makes the enlarge person ability basically useless after a few levels, but since it only replaces nature sense and is just something you can snapcast and never have to prepare, it is still probably a net gain for those first few levels, and moreso with an animal companio

[Miko_Kira]

So I want to make sure I'm getting this right. I'll only really be able to use 4th level spells unless I can get a [slot item] of wisdom +X. Which a +6 would be paramount at higher levels. So I want to list of the spells I think are prioritized for long duration and situational benefit.

0 level
Detect Magic, Light, Guidance, Mending

1 level
Shillelagh, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Longstrider

2 level
Barkskin, Lesser Restoration, Frostbite(?)

3 level
Greater Magic Fang, Greater Longstrider, Cure Moderate

4 level
(not here yet)

[Geddy2112]

So I want to make sure I'm getting this right. I'll only really be able to use 4th level spells unless I can get a [slot item] of wisdom +X. Which a +6 would be paramount at higher levels. So I want to list of the spells I think are prioritized for long duration and situational benefit.
RIght now with 14 wisdom, you will be able to cast 4th level spells(when you get them). Start looking for headbands of wisdom before you hit 9th level and need the higher score to cast. You can always put your ability increases here too.


0 level
Detect Magic, Light, Guidance, MendingI find mending to be one of those off day spells, but having it prepared is never bad. That said, I often find more uses for create water. YMMV Also, light becomes less important if you have darkvision, but still useful to put on a crossbow bolt and shoot out into the darkness.


1 level
Shillelagh, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Longstrider If you are using shillelagh I assume you are using a quarterstaff? Longstrider is good, but if you are using the greater version you don't need both. I suppose you can cast one each for all day, and then at higher levels just use one. You might want to leave something open for endure elements or cure spells, as needed.


2 level
Barkskin, Lesser Restoration, Frostbite(?)Lesser restoration is normally an off day spell, unless your character never wants to sleep and use it to dispel fatigue. Frostbite is first level, I assume you meant frigid touch? It is not bad, although I would probably have a defensive spell like resist energy.


3 level
Greater Magic Fang, Greater Longstrider, Cure Moderate Only prepare cure moderate if you absolutely have to, use a wand of CLW to keep topped off on HP. Greater magic fang is only good if you are using natural weapons or buffing an animal companion, but if you are going giant with a quarterstaff drop it. Wind wall, sleet/ash storm, resinous skin and siphon might(if you don't have a str belt) are all good 3rd level picks.


4 level
(not here yet)Freedom of movement is good for any character, buff yourself or allies with it. Echolocation gives blindsense with a good duration, just beware it can alert some creatures that can hear it. You get dispel magic later than other casters, but it is still handy.

[Gnaeus]

Lesser restoration is normally an off day spell, unless your character never wants to sleep and use it to dispel fatigue. Frostbite is first level, I assume you meant frigid touch? It is not bad, although I would probably have a defensive spell like resist energy.

Only prepare cure moderate if you absolutely have to, use a wand of CLW to keep topped off on HP. Greater magic fang is only good if you are using natural weapons or buffing an animal companion, but if you are going giant with a quarterstaff drop it. Wind wall, sleet/ash storm, resinous skin and siphon might(if you don't have a str belt) are all good 3rd level picks.

On a character who mostly hits things I’d rather have lesser restoration than a touch spell. Yes, it might get converted into a SNA, but ability damage is common, and as I suggested earlier it’s a better pick for the Druid than for your cleric, so you are helping him contribute. A better reason not to take it is that you should buy a wand of it prepared by a Paladin if you can.

[Miko_Kira]

On a character who mostly hits things I’d rather have lesser restoration than a touch spell. Yes, it might get converted into a SNA, but ability damage is common, and as I suggested earlier it’s a better pick for the Druid than for your cleric, so you are helping him contribute. A better reason not to take it is that you should buy a wand of it prepared by a Paladin if you can.

I just realized touch spells are pretty helpful against enemies that're already hard to hit. I mean, if I'm lookin' at my build right, touch attacks are my weakness too.
Also; Is there a list of recommended forms that I could wildshape into until 12th level when I can fully take on the benefits of giant form 1?

[Florian]

Ive got to ask why you're playing a Druid in the first case, when you want to reduce the spell-casting involved.

[Gnaeus]

Ive got to ask why you're playing a Druid in the first case, when you want to reduce the spell-casting involved.

Because Goliath Druid is a better fighter than a fighter. It would be nice if PF had a Polymorph based fighter concept, but Goliath Druid is closest

[Miko_Kira]

Ive got to ask why you're playing a Druid in the first case, when you want to reduce the spell-casting involved.

At 12th level I can take on the form of a Moss Troll who's only weakness is fire. Pop a spell to protect that and my regen will be very hard to stop. Combine that with Rage, a barkskin spell, and bull's strength, plus my half-orc class bonus towards nat armor, and Greater Longstrider spell.
I'll have a large size ugly af tank with a 30 AC (10+9 armor from stoneplate, +1 from Dex, +4 nat from Wildshape, +4 nat from Class bonus, +5 nat from Barkskin, -2 penalty from Rage, -1 penalty from Size), 5 Regen (lasts 1h/level thanks to Wildshape), +14 to Str Score (+6 size from Wildshape, +4 morale from Rage, +4 enhancement from Bull Strength) and a shillelaghed quarterstaff with an attack roll of +22/+17 and 3d6+19 of damage and a x2 crit range, or a falchion with a +22/+17 attack and 2d6+19 damage with a 18-20/x2 crit range, and a 40 ft movement speed from Greater Longstrider. And that is with what I can immediately think of. Plus, with certain items, I can cast up to 9th level spells, though I'll keep in-combat casting to a minimum, because the goal is to smash puny not-gods.

Edit; The closest thing you can get to a polymorphing fighter is the Mutation Warrior, as far as I can see.

[Florian]

At 12th level I can take on the form of a Moss Troll who's only weakness is fire. Pop a spell to protect that and my regen will be very hard to stop. Combine that with Rage, a barkskin spell, and bull's strength, plus my half-orc class bonus towards nat armor, and Greater Longstrider spell.
I'll have a large size ugly af tank with a 30 AC (10+9 armor from stoneplate, +1 from Dex, +4 nat from Wildshape, +4 nat from Class bonus, +5 nat from Barkskin, -2 penalty from Rage, -1 penalty from Size), 5 Regen (lasts 1h/level thanks to Wildshape), +14 to Str Score (+6 size from Wildshape, +4 morale from Rage, +4 enhancement from Bull Strength) and a shillelaghed quarterstaff with an attack roll of +22/+17 and 3d6+19 of damage and a x2 crit range, or a falchion with a +22/+17 attack and 2d6+19 damage with a 18-20/x2 crit range, and a 40 ft movement speed from Greater Longstrider. And that is with what I can immediately think of. Plus, with certain items, I can cast up to 9th level spells, though I'll keep in-combat casting to a minimum, because the goal is to smash puny not-gods.

Edit; The closest thing you can get to a polymorphing fighter is the Mutation Warrior, as far as I can see.

But you can´t. Wildshape allows for Beast Shape I+ and Elemental Body I+, but not Giant Shape or other variants without using an item to do so. You'd need a Mask of the Giants (Greater) for that and you'd have better combat performance using it as a Shifter.

[MeimuHakurei]

But you can´t. Wildshape allows for Beast Shape I+ and Elemental Body I+, but not Giant Shape or other variants without using an item to do so. You'd need a Mask of the Giants (Greater) for that and you'd have better combat performance using it as a Shifter.

Not correct - OP is using an Archetype that modifies Wildshape to allow the use of Giant Form at a certain level:


Druids’ ability to wild shape into a creature of the animal type allows a goliath druid to assume only the form of a dinosaur or megafauna. She doesn’t gain the ability to become an elemental or plant.

At 6th level, the goliath druid can use wild shape to become a Large humanoid of the giant subtype. This functions as the alter self spell, except the goliath druid gains a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +1 natural armor bonus. If the Large humanoid form she takes has rock throwing, she gains rock throwing (range 40 feet, 1d8 damage). If the form has the aquatic subtype, she gains the aquatic and amphibious subtypes.

At 12th level, when taking the form of a giant, the goliath druid’s wild shape functions as giant form I.

At 14th level, the goliath druid can also use wild shape to change into a Huge giant. When taking the form of a giant, the goliath druid’s wild shape functions as giant form II.

This ability alters wild shape.

[Florian]

Not correct - OP is using an Archetype that modifies Wildshape to allow the use of Giant Form at a certain level:

I really don´t care about 3PP material at all.

[Miko_Kira]

I really don´t care about 3PP material at all.

It's not 3PP it's Paizo Material, a PF Player Companion called the Giant Hunter's Handbook (http://paizo.com/products/btpy99s4?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Giant-Hunters-Handbook). It was made to compliment the Giantslayer campaign that came shortly after.

[Gnaeus]

I really don´t care about 3PP material at all.

Pathfinder players companion: giant hunters handbook. Paizo 2014. When my daughter sat down at the PFS table with her Goliath Druid the DMs response was “I love my Goliath Druid.”

[MindTheGap97]

Because Goliath Druid is a better fighter than a fighter. It would be nice if PF had a Polymorph based fighter concept, but Goliath Druid is closest

I do not necessarily agree with this statement, a decently optimized fighter can dish out a lot of damage and has better BAB, not to talk about more feats to play with (Potentially allowing for a VMC build), I think that if we are talking about hitting things until they die, rinse and repeat it is a contest between Barbarian and Fighter (with Fighter pulling ahead if VMC is allowed), Of course they are not as useful as a Druid outside of battle (even if Iron Caster builds bring decent utility in and out of combat).

[Miko_Kira]

If push comes to shove, I can always find another build idea. Probably a Half-Orc fighter wielding an Orc hornbow. It'd be a slowed feat progression, but ranged 2d6 is no joking matter, especially with the favored archery feat chain.

[MindTheGap97]

If push comes to shove, I can always find another build idea. Probably a Half-Orc fighter wielding an Orc hornbow. It'd be a slowed feat progression, but ranged 2d6 is no joking matter, especially with the favored archery feat chain.

If dealing damage is your prime concern I think that archery is the go-to style and druids are not the most feasible class for that, I do think that archery is an incredibly boring playstyle though, most of your turns are just going to be "I take a full attack", if you are fine with that by all means go ahead and roll one, this being said if I had to suggest an option for an archer type character I'd go with Mutation Warrior and get a good Dex score (18 after racials should do) and a decent Str score (14 is probably ok), and at some point pick up Power Attack and maybe quickdraw, this way if you are stopped by a pesky Wind Wall you can just imbibe a strenght mutagen and draw a Falchion or Greataxe or whatever you like and go toe-to-toe with the enemies, as a Fighter you get feats relatively fast anyways. I really do not know if this is off topic so I'll just stop blabbing about Fighters now and get back to your druid.

Goliath Druid gives you a very nice starting point for a melee build, you do not even need many feats to pull that off, the main problem I have with that kind of build is that it does not make such a great use of druid's spellcasting which is in my opinion the most powerful feature of a druid, this is not bad per-se, a Druid can still prepare some ok buffs and good utility spells, your DCs won't be stellar though, so do not expect to use many spells that require one, as a concept it can definitely work, especially if you have the time to buff before the battle begins, when you don't do not waste time buffing yourself though, with just your Wildshape you should have a good enough to-hit, spending an action to buff yourself in combat is usually not worth when you could just be in the enemies' face hitting them as strong as possible, consider a reach weapon for such a build, with size increases reach can become real scary very fast, sadly the giant form spells decrease your Dexterity, so if you are going with reach and combat reflexes you might want to wait until you have a Dex belt, to make the most AoOs possible in a round of combat, combat maneuvers are probably not going to be your best option, which is a shame since trip is such a sweet one with a lot of reach.

[Ellrin]

If dealing damage is your prime concern I think that archery is the go-to style and druids are not the most feasible class for that

Actually if you can figure out a decent source of extra damage (VMC cavalier or something like that), you can make a pretty good archer with a nature fang druid. You get a ranger's fast track on archery feats through slayer talents, and can make up for lost feats from VMC through more slayer talents (via rogue talents slayers have access to). Use a shifting jerkin to change up those selections on a week to week basis, too.

Granted, probably not as effective an archer as just being a slayer, but you get druid spells and an animal companion/domain powers/herbalism on top of that, so it's a pretty easy, surprisingly flexible ranged gish.

[Gnaeus]

I do not necessarily agree with this statement, a decently optimized fighter can dish out a lot of damage and has better BAB, not to talk about more feats to play with (Potentially allowing for a VMC build), I think that if we are talking about hitting things until they die, rinse and repeat it is a contest between Barbarian and Fighter (with Fighter pulling ahead if VMC is allowed), Of course they are not as useful as a Druid outside of battle (even if Iron Caster builds bring decent utility in and out of combat).

Well, first off I think you are wrong. A half orc Goliath Druid can make 22 strength and be hitting targets for 3d6 +9 damage with 10 foot reach at level 1, plus either a flanker or smites, before spending his feat. At 6 you get 1 iterative and the Druid is a 28 strength troll with secondary bite attack. By 8 he’s raging like a Barbarian. Against really high AC foes he has tricks like true strike + power attack.

Second, useful in battle is more than to hit and damage. A fighter who fails a will save is either useless or an enemy, and bravery is half as useful as a good will progression assuming it applies. Can you use scent to avoid ambushes or pinpoint invisible attackers? The Druid can. Can you fight underwater? The Druid can. Grab on days that grapples are useful? Touch attacks on high AC enemies? Energy resistance? Wind wall to make the ranged enemy close to greataxe range? Druid, Druid, Druid, Druid, all stuff that helps your job as primary melee and all before level 6.

[MindTheGap97]

Well, first off I think you are wrong. A half orc Goliath Druid can make 22 strength and be hitting targets for 3d6 +9 damage with 10 foot reach at level 1, plus either a flanker or smites, before spending his feat. At 6 you get 1 iterative and the Druid is a 28 strength troll with secondary bite attack. By 8 he’s raging like a Barbarian. Against really high AC foes he has tricks like true strike + power attack.

Second, useful in battle is more than to hit and damage. A fighter who fails a will save is either useless or an enemy, and bravery is half as useful as a good will progression assuming it applies. Can you use scent to avoid ambushes or pinpoint invisible attackers? The Druid can. Can you fight underwater? The Druid can. Grab on days that grapples are useful? Touch attacks on high AC enemies? Energy resistance? Wind wall to make the ranged enemy close to greataxe range? Druid, Druid, Druid, Druid, all stuff that helps your job as primary melee and all before level 6.

Well, as I said a Druid surely has more utility but if you start with a 20 Str the Mutation Fighter VMC Barbarian can get a 28 Strenght at level 3 and still have 3 or 4 feats free (depending if he is human), so at level 6 you have 29 Str and the Troll has 28, your BAB is full though, so you actually have better chances to hit, if we are talking raw damage I still think the fighter is superior

EDIT: To make things clear, I think that Druid is a superior option, just not in a damage comparison

[Gnaeus]

Well, as I said a Druid surely has more utility but if you start with a 20 Str the Mutation Fighter VMC Barbarian can get a 28 Strenght at level 3 and still have 3 or 4 feats free (depending if he is human), so at level 6 you have 29 Str and the Troll has 28, your BAB is full though, so you actually have better chances to hit, if we are talking raw damage I still think the fighter is superior

1. I can take VMC Barbarian also. It stacks nicely with rage domain. However, I don’t think that using optional rules that are encouraged not to be used with regular multiclassing is a good benchmark for even an optimized fighter.

2. I still have either a flanker or true strike + smites. Either one should compare favorably to 2 BAB.

3. All that just means you are a bigger threat to the party after the dominate person. The problem with fighter isn’t that they can’t do damage. They can. Looks like your VMC mutation Warrior is pretty close to equal to the Goliath Druid. Problem is, damage doesn’t make you a good fighter. You said out of combat utility, and Druid certainly has more of that also. But Fighter is T5 because it lacks in combat utility, and mutation warrior/VMC Barbarian doesn’t help that. If you can’t fight invisible creatures, in multiple environments, don’t have defenses against grapple or level drain or energy damage or mind control or poison or fliers etc. you are worse at being a fighter. Yeah, the Druid also gets travel benefits and divinations and all that other stuff. But more importantly he can actually do the melee job with a much higher degree of effectiveness.

[Florian]

EDIT: To make things clear, I think that Druid is a superior option, just not in a damage comparison

Martial classes have access to some stuff that caster classes simply cannot replicate, at least in PF. For example, the ability to flat out deny "defensive casting" or directly target and take down certain spells can and will be worth more than "raw damage" and "sword/arrow to face" can be more powerful than "Wish", in the sense that you didn't have to invest a 9th love slot in the first place and can keep repeating it over and over again.

[MindTheGap97]

1. I can take VMC Barbarian also. It stacks nicely with rage domain. However, I don’t think that using optional rules that are encouraged not to be used with regular multiclassing is a good benchmark for even an optimized fighter.

2. I still have either a flanker or true strike + smites. Either one should compare favorably to 2 BAB.

3. All that just means you are a bigger threat to the party after the dominate person. The problem with fighter isn’t that they can’t do damage. They can. Looks like your VMC mutation Warrior is pretty close to equal to the Goliath Druid. Problem is, damage doesn’t make you a good fighter. You said out of combat utility, and Druid certainly has more of that also. But Fighter is T5 because it lacks in combat utility, and mutation warrior/VMC Barbarian doesn’t help that. If you can’t fight invisible creatures, in multiple environments, don’t have defenses against grapple or level drain or energy damage or mind control or poison or fliers etc. you are worse at being a fighter. Yeah, the Druid also gets travel benefits and divinations and all that other stuff. But more importantly he can actually do the melee job with a much higher degree of effectiveness.

Some of those problems can be fixed even with a fighter build, certainly not all of them but some, if you introduce the Eldritch Guardian archetype you can get a flanking buddy (that also happens to share your combat feats) and a pretty decent Will save vs. mind affecting adding Iron Will helps too, you also already have a way to deal with fliers in the form of the wings discovery from level 7 onwards, certainly a druid gets it before that level, but you still get a way of dealing with a good degree of menaces, fighting invisible creatures can be a pain but a good deal of familiars do have scent, so some issues can be worked out, others can't really, still think that a good fighter can poke his head into T4 category without too many issues.

But I do think that we are straying a little bit too much from the topic at hand here, this is not a matter to be discussed here I feel

[Miko_Kira]

But I do think that we are straying a little bit too much from the topic at hand here, this is not a matter to be discussed here I feel

You're absolutely right. My main goal was to get a short list of what I need to prepare first thing in the day. My list so far is Shillelagh, Barkskin, and Greater Longstrider. I'll use Longstrider before an adventure, and Barkskin before a dungeon. My focus is to clear the area of threats before Barkskin expires, but I'll prepare it twice just in case.

Are there any other long duration spells that I could work with at level 6? Resinous Skin?

[MindTheGap97]

You're absolutely right. My main goal was to get a short list of what I need to prepare first thing in the day. My list so far is Shillelagh, Barkskin, and Greater Longstrider. I'll use Longstrider before an adventure, and Barkskin before a dungeon. My focus is to clear the area of threats before Barkskin expires, but I'll prepare it twice just in case.

Are there any other long duration spells that I could work with at level 6? Resinous Skin?


Greater Magic Fang has a good duration and makes your bite better, might be worth it

[Ellrin]

Greater Magic Fang has a good duration and makes your bite better, might be worth it

The only problem I have with GMF is that it only works on a single natural weapon per cast, and since natural weapons don't inherently get iteratives, this makes it a pretty poor alternative to GMW without a source of permanency.

Though I suppose it's not much of a problem if you're making a vital strike style build anyway.

[MindTheGap97]

The only problem I have with GMF is that it only works on a single natural weapon per cast, and since natural weapons don't inherently get iteratives, this makes it a pretty poor alternative to GMW without a source of permanency.

Though I suppose it's not much of a problem if you're making a vital strike style build anyway.

I was thinking more of a Greatsword/bite thing.

[Miko_Kira]

Nah, My weapons are the Falchion, Quarterstaff, and maybe throwing rocks.

[MindTheGap97]

Nah, My weapons are the Falchion, Quarterstaff, and maybe throwing rocks.

Still you can tack the bite, it counts as a secondary attack so it is at a -5 penalty but if you full attack you can have a Falchion/Bite routine

[Khedrac]

The only problem I have with GMF is that it only works on a single natural weapon per cast, and since natural weapons don't inherently get iteratives, this makes it a pretty poor alternative to GMW without a source of permanency.

Though I suppose it's not much of a problem if you're making a vital strike style build anyway.

That is one way of using greater magic fang, but in many ways it is the less useful way. The other way is to enhance all of the recipient's natural attacks (admittedly only to +1).

Alternatively, you may imbue all of the creature’s natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level).
OK you don't get the exta N to hit and damage, but with enough attacks the +1 to all of them will work out to be a bigger total to attack and damage in the round.

[Miko_Kira]

None of the forms I choose will grant a bite attack though, I don't know where you guys are getting that information. Is there something I'm missing?

[vasilidor]

you should look at battle field control spells, in general practice I have noticed that if you try to use more than one or two buffs at the start of a fight, the battle will be half over by the time you actually start fighting.

[Miko_Kira]

you should look at battle field control spells, in general practice I have noticed that if you try to use more than one or two buffs at the start of a fight, the battle will be half over by the time you actually start fighting.

That's why you apply any long duration buffs at the start of the day, or before you go into a potentially dangerous area.