Warlock/Enlightened Fist / Nosomatic Chirurgeon

[weckar]

I just want to make sure I get this idea properly.

2 levels of monk and 3 of Warlock allows one access into Enlightened Fist. 3 Levels here. Finally cap it off with 1 level of Nosomatic Chirurgeon.

At this point, it seems that as long as I have Stunning fist attempts available, I can load up every single blow in a full attack routine with Inflict Critical Wounds?

If this is all correct, how can I keep my Monk features on track (it takes a while for flurry to not blow) and maximise the number of Stunning Attempts I get?

[Zaq]

I mean, this feels awkward to say, but if your two biggest priorities are advancing Monk features and gaining daily uses of Stunning Fist, Monk will advance them both.

That said, Monk has that pesky “once you take levels in non-Monk, you can’t take more Monk” clause, unless Enlightened Fist lets you get around that (or your GM ignores it, since it’s dumb). And, you know, Monk is Monk. There’s likely a PrC or something that would be better. Just throwing stuff out there.

[Troacctid]

It does seem like this works, yes. Although personally, I don't like being small-sized as a monk in this edition.


I mean, this feels awkward to say, but if your two biggest priorities are advancing Monk features and gaining daily uses of Stunning Fist, Monk will advance them both.
So will Enlightened Fist. 🤷🏻

[Zaq]

It does seem like this works, yes. Although personally, I don't like being small-sized as a monk in this edition.


So will Enlightened Fist. 🤷🏻

That’s what I get for posting on mobile without checking my books. I guess I had assumed that that wasn’t desirable for some reason. Is there a problem with just taking more EF, weckar?

[weckar]

True, EF gives stunning attempts, but it does not progress flurry - neither does monk belt... Is there any way? The extra attacks would really help going Nova here.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Do any of the various methods of getting all the useful Monk features with few to no levels in the actual class apply here?

Alternately, could one enter EF with Unarmed Swordsage instead and add Inflict Wounds to maneuvers instead?

[weckar]

Alternately, could one enter EF with Unarmed Swordsage instead and add Inflict Wounds to maneuvers instead?
That would not get nearly as many Stunning attempts to fuel it, right? Only 1/4th of em?

If ONLY extra stunning were a Fighter bonus Feat... then that would be a better draw :P

[2gig]

it takes a while for flurry to not blow

I'll never understand why people say this. At level 1, it's usually equivalent to a +2.25 to land at least one attack, ignoring how great a bonus the possibility of landing two is. Sometimes using flurry is worse for your chance to land a single hit, but that's only in cases of extremely high AC, where you would need to roll 16 or greater to hit.

The real problem is the step down in damage you take for using monk weapons (usually UAS), compared to a normal 2H weapon. UAS simply does not scale fast enough to compensate. But this is a universal problem with monks, and it seems odd to pin the blame on flurry. The solution is to multiclass into something like Rogue that adds damage to your attacks. There's also a Fighter variant that ditches Med/Heavy armor for +2 initiative and Dex to damage.

RAW incompatibility with pounce does blow hard, though. The coolest DMs houserule this issue away, because Monk desperately needs the love.

[weckar]

I'll never understand why people say this. At level 1, it's usually equivalent to a +2.25 to land at least one attack, ignoring how great a bonus the possibility of landing two is.
How does the math for that work out? Because I can't get there.

[Telonius]

I'll never understand why people say this. At level 1, it's usually equivalent to a +2.25 to land at least one attack, ignoring how great a bonus the possibility of landing two is. Sometimes using flurry is worse for your chance to land a single hit, but that's only in cases of extremely high AC, where you would need to roll 16 or greater to hit.

The real problem is the step down in damage you take for using monk weapons (usually UAS), compared to a normal 2H weapon. UAS simply does not scale fast enough to compensate. But this is a universal problem with monks, and it seems odd to pin the blame on flurry. The solution is to multiclass into something like Rogue that adds damage to your attacks. There's also a Fighter variant that ditches Med/Heavy armor for +2 initiative and Dex to damage.

RAW incompatibility with pounce does blow hard, though. The coolest DMs houserule this issue away, because Monk desperately needs the love.

Monks have a seriously harsh case of MAD. Unless they've taken some steps to reduce the stats they need to depend on, their starting abilities and stat-improving items tend to be more spread out than something like a Rogue that can go almost all-in on Dex (with Weapon Finesse). This tends to make the total attack bonus lower. There are ways around this, but they're not as obvious or Core-friendly. I think people also tend to compare them more to Full-Attack classes, not other 3/4 BAB classes, and that makes the problem look even worse.

[death390]

i always find it odd that people harp on Flurry? for what it is it quite good. it is basically melee rapid shot. which as long as you hit on 17 or better with a normal strike (19+ for flurry), is better to use every time. (81% chance to hit at least 1 time compared to 80% for 1 hit, with 1% chance to hit twice). it is no different that two weapon fighting with light weapons. (not great without another source of damage but still better than einhander style)

[Thurbane]

It does seem like this works, yes. Although personally, I don't like being small-sized as a monk in this edition.

Could a Changeling do it with racial emulation?

[Deadline]

Could a Changeling do it with racial emulation?

I'm pretty certain that the Dragonmark rules wind up preventing that. Nosomatic Chirurgeon requires a Dragonmark only available to halflings, doesn't it?

[Troacctid]

I'm pretty certain that the Dragonmark rules wind up preventing that. Nosomatic Chirurgeon requires a Dragonmark only available to halflings, doesn't it?
I'm not an expert on Eberron lore but I'm pretty sure Changelings can't manifest dragonmarks. Even if you can emulate being a halfling, it's still hereditary.

[daremetoidareyo]

a couple things.

here is my nosomatic warlock stub: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517606-Nosomatic-Warlock-Build

here is my changeling trying to use a dragonmark, using heal skill and the preserve organ spell:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21014309&postcount=116

here is the judgement about that; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21127670&postcount=228

[weckar]

Being an actual halfling in this scenario is not that bad; you get the + to hit while not suffering a major damage drawback.

@daremetoidareyo I did scour those for research, but I had not seen them combined with Enlightened Fist yet :)

[Grim Reader]

I'm not an expert on Eberron lore but I'm pretty sure Changelings can't manifest dragonmarks. Even if you can emulate being a halfling, it's still hereditary.

Does not Racial Emulation get around this?

Anyway, If you can get Wild Empathy, one level of Abolisher gets you Wild Shape, which qualifies you for Master of Many Forms. A bit feat intensive and it costs 2-3 levels, but you can be a giant.

[Zombimode]

i always find it odd that people harp on Flurry? for what it is it quite good. it is basically melee rapid shot. which as long as you hit on 17 or better with a normal strike (19+ for flurry), is better to use every time. (81% chance to hit at least 1 time compared to 80% for 1 hit, with 1% chance to hit twice). it is no different that two weapon fighting with light weapons. (not great without another source of damage but still better than einhander style)

Exactly. Flurry starts with the universal -2 that applies to almost all sources of extra attacks (Two Weapon Fighting, Whirling Frenzy, Rapid Shot, Agile Shield Fighter - just to Name the most common ones) and gets better.

Yeah, the Monk has problems. But Flurry of Blows by itself is fine, even strong.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Does the Enlightneed Fist's Spellcasting progression advance the warlock's Eldritch Blasts? What about new infusions?

You'd need some Eldritch Essences or what's the name to make your EBs count a higher level spells so you could use higher level inflicts, wouldn't you?

[Troacctid]

Does not Racial Emulation get around this?
It gets around the race requirement, but not the house requirement. You could only get an Aberrant Dragonmark.


Does the Enlightneed Fist's Spellcasting progression advance the warlock's Eldritch Blasts? What about new infusions?
Yes, you get new invocations and upgrade your eldritch blast, just as if you gained a level of Warlock.


You'd need some Eldritch Essences or what's the name to make your EBs count a higher level spells so you could use higher level inflicts, wouldn't you?
Any invocation should do. They're all spell-like abilities.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Any invocation should do. They're all spell-like abilities.
What about the "of the same spell level or lower" part? EBs count as 1st level afaik.

So you'd need to pick up Essences that make it count as higher level, so you can use a higher level Inflict.

[weckar]

What about the "of the same spell level or lower" part? EBs count as 1st level afaik.

So you'd need to pick up Essences that make it count as higher level, so you can use a higher level Inflict.

You don't need to use EB. All invocations have levels, most higher than essence-less EB. (There is even a lv 6 Lesser invocation we dare not speak of).

[TotallyNotEvil]

Ah, oh, of course.

I always get my wires crossed when it comes to warlock.

Anyway, this is super neat. The clan of halfling assassins writes itself.

[Troacctid]

House Jorasco is a clan of healers, so quite the opposite, really. Nosomatic chirurgeons are the ones who go mad after constant exposure to death and disease, turning their powers toward darkness. They tend to keep their abilities secret to avoid the hostile reactions of their House should they be exposed.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I immediately thought of a batman-like story, actually. The Nolan Batman origin, with the mystical training by assassins of the League of Shadows and all of that.

Medicinal knowledge in order to kill more efficiently sounds pretty good for "Assassin Clan" background. It gives a very profitable and trustworthy profession as bonus.