Why is the Celestial Warlock not getting as much praise?

[Dudewithknives]

I know that in the current state of the game, the Hexblade is by far the most powerful and talked about subclass.
People are just looking over the Celestial, the subclass has some VERY solid potential.

1. The bonus cantrips are nothing special but hey it is free.

2. Their bonus spells are great choices for a warlock, especially when you get them back on a short rest and can fix up the party as needed.

3. Your level + 1 in D6s that can be used to heal from 60 feet away, and it is a bonus action. That is amazing.

4. Radiant resistance is not going to come up like ever, but Cha to damage on a fire or radiant spell is great if used correctly.

5. Level + Cha in temp hp for you after a short rest and 1/2 level + cha to the rest of the group. Definitely nice.

6. Lastly, the first time each long rest when you have to make a death save you get half your Hp back, stand up free, and no save everyone you choose in 30 feet takes 2d8 + cha radiant and is blinded for one turn.


There is a lot of potential here, but it is not getting much talk.

Blade pact could use GFB to add CHA to damage again. So at like 12 you could: 1d8 weapon + 2d8 fire + Dex/Str + Cha + Cha, that is pretty nice.

Chain pact could bonus heal at 60 ft, can channel all the other nice patron spells through the invisible familiar to apply the touch spells from range, and can take the invocation to max the heals on themselves.

Tome could take shillelagh to hit GFB with Cha to hit and damage x2 and whatever other cantrips you take.

[Mikal]

Main reasons why Hexblade is fiercely discussed is that it patches the weaknesses in playing a Blade Pact (mainly that the best melee Warlock before this was Tomepact with Shillelagh and GFB/Booming Blade), but does it such a way that it polarizes people into love it or hate it camps.

Celestial Warlock is just meh. Healing is nice, but most healing is optimal out of combat, when you may be using short rests to augment it anyway, and the druid spell that came out in Xanathar's does it much better anyway out of combat wise.

Cha to spell damage is nice, but Dragon Sorcerers do it better.

All in all it's an ok patron, but it's not going to have the same level of discussion as what Hexblade brings.

[Waazraath]

You're correct. It's a very nice subclass. But it goes for more warlock subclasses, that are also underrated imo. Telepathy at level 1 (Great Old One) can be absolutely great as well. (Though that's a bit campaign dependent mabye).

[Millstone85]

Telepathy at level 1 (Great Old One) can be absolutely great as well.Half-telepathy, which makes it a bit underwhelming.

[Specter]

Probably because a lot of people prefer munchkining and min-maxing over being an all-around good character. Which is why I also suspect people praise Moon Druids and not Land, and Lore over Valor.

[Chunkosaurus]

Probably because a lot of people prefer munchkining and min-maxing over being an all-around good character. Which is why I also suspect people praise Moon Druids and not Land, and Lore over Valor.

Eh as far a lore vs valor I think most people find the combat inspiration mostly pointless especially compare to the awesomeness of cutting words. Swords remedies this problem

[Easy_Lee]

Healing Light is great for yo-yoing people and, since it isn't a spell, can be used in the same round as casting a spell. This is particularly effective on a ranged build as archers often have no good use for their bonus action. Celestial may not have as much individual DPR as a Hexblade, but its effective DPR is often greater due to bringing allies back into the fight.

Also, short rest Revivify.

[Boci]

Probably because a lot of people prefer munchkining and min-maxing over being an all-around good character. Which is why I also suspect people praise Moon Druids and not Land, and Lore over Valor.

Alternativly people don't post good characters, because well a good character doesn't need imput from other people, its good, you like it, you play it. Where as a minmaxed build on the otherhand can always be improved upon.

[Specter]

Eh as far a lore vs valor I think most people find the combat inspiration mostly pointless especially compare to the awesomeness of cutting words. Swords remedies this problem

Cutting Words is indeed good, but it draws from the same pool as Bardic Inspiration. So every time you prevent a hit, it's one less inapiration for your allies. Valor gets an improvement over his inspiration, meaning he will inspire just as many people, except better. It's not as big a difference as people make it to be, and if you have heavy hitters in the group you really want Valor because they can throw your inspiration in a crit.


Alternativly people don't post good characters, because well a good character doesn't need imput from other people, its good, you like it, you play it. Where as a minmaxed build on the otherhand can always be improved upon.

Yeah, but I meant the subclasses in general, not builds.

[BobZan]

I made a V. Human Celestial Bladelock Archer with Healer feat. It's veeeeery good support. You can deploy good damage from basic Hex+attack and some nova with Eldritch Smite, while yo-yoing your peers and solid OoC short rest heals (healer+spells). With Eldritch Smite + Improved Pact Weapon + Thirsting Blade Invocations by lv 5.

Sadly Celestial + GFB isn't AL-legal, but would be a good way to go.

[Naanomi]

Celestial Tomelock is among to best utility characters possible I think... healing, rituals, face, consistent damage... nothing flashy perhaps but a lot to offer a party

[jaappleton]

Celestial is nice. I like it, it’s something I’ve wanted for a long time, it enables you to almost be a short rest based Paladin if you take the right Invocations.

But it’s not amazing.

I don’t like the Patron spell list or how the lv6 only targets one creature. Additionally, every feature is combat focused, there’s no real utility to it at all.

It works. It’s fine. To give it a grade, it’s a very solid B. I don’t think any table would object to having a Celestial in their game, especially with that bonus action Healing.

But it’s not amazing.

[Tanarii]

Because healing is never as talked about in forums as smashing face? At best, it's acknowledged by people in the know.

(Edit: exception if it's truly broken. Healing Spirit for example.)


Half-telepathy, which makes it a bit underwhelming.
Still insanely useful if you're part of a scout detachment, or working with a Face character, or giving a teammates suggestions in battle without the enemy overhearing.

The last is why the best team leader I've ever seen for a 5e party was a GoO warlock. (The player was a natural, obviously that's a prerequisite.)

[Dudewithknives]

Because healing is never as talked about in forums as smashing face? At best, it's acknowledged by people in the know.


Still insanely useful if you're part of a scout detachment, or working with a Face character, or giving a teammates suggestions in battle without the enemy overhearing.

The last is why the best team leader I've ever seen for a 5e party was a GoO warlock. (The player was a natural, obviously that's a prerequisite.)

When I looked at the healing of the Celestial Warlock the first thing I noticed was that it was a bonus action and could me maximized on themselves with a simple invocation from pact of the chain.

Invisible scout, delivering touch spells like restorations or heals, and bonus action of healing 6hp/classlevel+1.

Assuming level 20 just to be crazy.

Normal HP: 160 lets say.
First death save, auto heal for 80
Can max self heal for 6hp, 21 times... that is bonus action self healing of another 126, in chunks of up to 30 each bonus action.

That could be an effective 366 HP, and never spending a single spell level or even an action to heal with.

In perspective a fighter with an 18 Con would not even have 200 more than likely.

That is of course if they use all their healing on themselves, which is not likely, still 5d6 bonus action healing, at 60 feet, if needed for a little over 4 rounds per long rest is definitely amazing.

[KorvinStarmast]

People are just looking over the Celestial, the subclass has some VERY solid potential.

1. The bonus cantrips are nothing special but hey it is free.
2. Their bonus spells are great choices for a warlock, especially when you get them back on a short rest and can fix up the party as needed.
3. Your level + 1 in D6s that can be used to heal from 60 feet away, and it is a bonus action. That is amazing.
4. Radiant resistance is not going to come up like ever, but Cha to damage on a fire or radiant spell is great if used correctly.
5. Level + Cha in temp hp for you after a short rest and 1/2 level + cha to the rest of the group. Definitely nice.
6. Lastly, the first time each long rest when you have to make a death save you get half your Hp back, stand up free, and no save everyone you choose in 30 feet takes 2d8 + cha radiant and is blinded for one turn.

There is a lot of potential here, but it is not getting much talk.
I have been waiting for Celestial to come out of UA and into official material for some time. It is my number one warlock pick (if our party agrees to having a warlock) in our upcoming ToA group. (My other choice is a monk).

I love it. Not sure what Pact I'll be going for ... all choices look good to me.

[Dudewithknives]

I have been waiting for Celestial to come out of UA and into official material for some time. It is my number one warlock pick (if our party agrees to having a warlock) in our upcoming ToA group. (My other choice is a monk).

I love it. Not sure what Pact I'll be going for ... all choices look good to me.

Pact to me is either Chain or Blade, but chain seems better to me in the long run.

Blade:
You can Green Flame Blade after level 6 for cha to damage, at 12 cha to damage twice with their invocation.
Too bad the smite invocation is not considered a spell, or that would be even better.

But, like all blade pacts that are not hex blades, your ac is going to be low and no shield unless you spend a feat or multi class.

Chain:
Invisible super scout
Deliver touch spells like most of their nice patron spells.
Voice of the chain master is also pretty neat especially if it is a tiny celestial angel or something, (just have a sprite with a little celestial flavor)
Invocation for maximizing all healing on you is great, especially great considering it counts all sources. Even spending HD, other's spells, or whatever.

[Dr. Cliché]

My thoughts in Red.


I know that in the current state of the game, the Hexblade is by far the most powerful and talked about subclass.
People are just looking over the Celestial, the subclass has some VERY solid potential.

I think people like the Hexblade because it opens up a lot of builds that people have wanted to play for ages, but haven't been able to because Pact of the Blade was objectively inferior. It also offers more opportunities for multiclassing, since Hex Warrior can make you less MAD. Also also, it has some nice flavour, without actually locking people into restrictive patrons.

Don't get me wrong - the Celestial is a nice class, but I think it's a lot more niche. And, unlike the Hexblade, it's not filling a niche that people have wanted for ages (namely a Gish). I mean, I think the appeal for a lot of people is playing someone who has sold their soul/services to a dark power. If you want to sell your soul to a good power, why not just be a cleric? :smallwink:

What's more, Xanathar's Guide also released a similar subclass in the Favoured Soul, which probably diminished the impact of the Celestial Warlock somewhat.

1. The bonus cantrips are nothing special but hey it is free. The thing is, Warlocks are probably the worst class to give a damage Cantrip to. Especially one that's significantly worse than the damage cantrip they already have.

2. Their bonus spells are great choices for a warlock, especially when you get them back on a short rest and can fix up the party as needed. I'm not convinced.
- Cure Wounds isn't a great spell - and vastly worse on a class with so few spell slots. Same goes for Guiding Bolt.
- Flaming Sphere might be alright with your lv6 bonus. Lesser Restoration is garbage.
- Given that you need to cast it within 1 minute of the character dying, Revify is almost certainly going to be better on a class that can afford to save a spell slot for it. Daylight is very specific, but I guess it might be alright if you're facing a lot of vampires or such. Certainly not a spell you'd want on the average list.
- Guardian of Faith seems okay, though rather specific. Shame it doesn't benefit from being cast at lv5. Wall of Fire is good.
- Greater Restoration seems too specific, and Flame Strike seems like a poor man's fireball (though since you're casting at lv5 anyway, it's not that bad).

Really, only the 4th level spells (and maybe the other fire spells) seem like they might be worthwhile.

3. Your level + 1 in D6s that can be used to heal from 60 feet away, and it is a bonus action. That is amazing. The thing is, in the same book, Druids got the Circle of Dreams - which has an almost identical class feature (1 fewer d6, but 120ft range and each d6 spent also gives the target 1 temporary hp). Don't get me wrong - it's a great ability, but not one that's unique to the Celestial.

4. Radiant resistance is not going to come up like ever, but Cha to damage on a fire or radiant spell is great if used correctly. It is . . . just not for a Warlock. :smallwink:

The issue is that, unlike the sorcerer, you're not getting the benefit of this for your Cantrips - because you already have access to a much better version. What's more, you can only add the extra damage against one creature,
yet most of your fire/radiant spells are AoEs. And, of course, most of the time you'll only have 2 such spells between rests.

5. Level + Cha in temp hp for you after a short rest and 1/2 level + cha to the rest of the group. Definitely nice. No argument from me here.

6. Lastly, the first time each long rest when you have to make a death save you get half your Hp back, stand up free, and no save everyone you choose in 30 feet takes 2d8 + cha radiant and is blinded for one turn. I like this ability. However, I can see some people not wanting to have to die just to use their lv14 class feature. :smallwink:

But yeah, it's a fun ability.


There is a lot of potential here, but it is not getting much talk.

Blade pact could use GFB to add CHA to damage again. So at like 12 you could: 1d8 weapon + 2d8 fire + Dex/Str + Cha + Cha, that is pretty nice. Just a point but GFB doesn't add your Cha bonus to the initial damage. It's only the secondary target that takes Cha damage.

Also, while you definitely can do this, a Hexblade can do something similar. You don't get the extra Cha to damage,
but you get to use it for your normal attack roll and damage (in place of Str/Dex, which will usually be lower). You'd also get proficiency with medium armour, shields and martial weapons.

Again, I'm not trying to diminish the Celestial Warlock here - I'm just saying that they're not doing anything really unique, and are almost certainly a worse choice for melee than the other Warlock patron in the book.

Chain pact could bonus heal at 60 ft, can channel all the other nice patron spells through the invisible familiar to apply the touch spells from range, and can take the invocation to max the heals on themselves. Delivering the touch spells from range would have been more useful if they were worth delivering in the first place.

Tome could take shillelagh to hit GFB with Cha to hit and damage x2 and whatever other cantrips you take.

TL:DR I think the Celestial is a nice subclass, though I think you might be giving it a little too much credit (particularly with regard to its lv6 ability and the usefulness of the extra spells).

However, I think the reason it doesn't get talked about is because:
- It's pretty niche in terms of fluff.
- It's mechanics, whilst not bad, aren't particularly interesting either.
- I think it compares unfavourably (hah!) to the Favoured Soul - which also has cleric abilities, but actually has the spell slots to use them effectively, as well as metamagic to bring another dimension to some spells. Meanwhile, the Celestial's abilities don't really seem to gel with one another (you can only do +cha to one target, but most of your spells are AoEs; you get a free damage cantrip, but it's objectively worse than the one you'll have anyway, you get some cleric spells to pick from, but most of them are terrible on a class with so few spell slots etc.).

Speaking personally - and I say this as someone who loves Warlocks - there's just nothing that draws me to this particular subclass.

[KorvinStarmast]

Chain:
Invisible super scout
Deliver touch spells like most of their nice patron spells.
Voice of the chain master is also pretty neat especially if it is a tiny celestial angel or something, (just have a sprite with a little celestial flavor)
Invocation for maximizing all healing on you is great, especially great considering it counts all sources. Even spending HD, other's spells, or whatever.
Because I cannot help but think tactically in D&D (comes from my wargamer roots and my career in the military) and because I know how important the Recon / Scouting / Intel function is, Chain is what I tend to play with a Warlock. I just do. (Maybe I am in a rut?)

Your other points taken aboard and agreed with.

[DivisibleByZero]

Blade pact could use GFB to add CHA to damage again. So at like 12 you could: 1d8 weapon + 2d8 fire + Dex/Str + Cha + Cha, that is pretty nice. Just a point but GFB doesn't add your Cha bonus to the initial damage. It's only the secondary target that takes Cha damage.

He had the right of it.
"So at like 12 you could: 1d8 weapon [weapon] + 2d8 fire [GFB] + Dex/Str [mod to weapon] + Cha [Lifedrinker] + Cha [Radiant Soul]"
Lifedrinker. That's why he said level 12.
Then you're also doing 2d8+mod to a secondary target.

[rbstr]

I really like the Celestial Patron. I tend to view it as one of the more fun and capable "combat medic" classes largely because Healing Light works pretty seamlessly with most Warlock combat capabilities. Of course it's not suited well to forum-calculation "optimization" play - it doesn't give you a massive power boost with a one-level dip so it isn't talked about much.

What it does do is work pretty dang well when you're not just dipping Warlock:
"Pop-up" healing with good action economy. Doesn't consume spell slots.
The spell list is half "meh" and half "exactly what a medic needs" with the restoration spells and revivify.
The not-Inspiring-Leader feature isn't the most powerful but it's useful.
It's pretty much the hardest Warlock to kill. Partly because they simply don't die when they're killed.

I think the powered-up green flame blade enables some unique neat single-class gish build options with it too. Like using the Chain boon and the new invocation could make for a weird and fun hp-tank.
Adding a some fighter makes for a neat alternative paladin.

Of course some of the stuff it seems to be going for doesn't work out that well. Sacred Flame isn't powered up enough with the level 6 feature to come close to EB+Agonizing.
The other half of the expanded spell list isn't great.
The level 6 damage feature just doesn't amount to much. It's best use is on a GFB cantriper. It just doesn't do enough to actually get a Celestial warlock to do things mush differently from any other warlock. If it was more like "once per turn when you deal fire/radiant damage" rather than "cast a spell that does.." Flaming sphere would be really cool. If it worked on multiple targets. IMO it should give Sacred Flame half-damage on a made save, I think that'd at least make it a bit interesting over EB.

[Dr. Cliché]

He had the right of it.
"So at like 12 you could: 1d8 weapon [weapon] + 2d8 fire [GFB] + Dex/Str [mod to weapon] + Cha [Lifedrinker] + Cha [Radiant Soul]"
Lifedrinker. That's why he said level 12.
Then you're also doing 2d8+mod to a secondary target.

Ah, gotcha. I'd forgotten about Lifedrinker.

[Jerrykhor]

Because Divine Soul Sorcerer is leagues better. Being able to cherry pick the best spells from both cleric and sorcerer list completely trumps it.

[Waazraath]

Because Divine Soul Sorcerer is leagues better. Being able to cherry pick the best spells from both cleric and sorcerer list completely trumps it.

This is a very strange comparison. It are subclasses to a different class. Some classes have more powerful abilities in the base class, others more in the subclass. So you really can't compare.

And even then: the Celestial Warlock and the Divine Soul Sorcerer can both replace the cleric, when one is absent in a party. But I'd argue the celestial warlock can do so a lot easier. It gets a large pool of healing without having to use spells known / spel slots to do. Bonus action healing, which is great (the Divine Soul needs to spend one of his precious spells known on healing word to get that ability). The Warlock has a stronger chassis (better hd, light armor); can use invocations to easily upgrade his defenses (while, again, the Divine Soul needs precious spells known for that). The Warlock has always stronger at will damage available with eldritch blast.

So no, the Divine Soul does not "completely trumps it" - even though it has a few very nice abilities in his own right, like Otherworldly Wings and Unearthly Recovery.

[Dr. Cliché]

This is a very strange comparison. It are subclasses to a different class.

They're for different subclasses, sure, but the flavour is very similar and the mechanics are definitely comparable (both are based around mixing in cleric spells and divine abilities into their respective classes).

[Waazraath]

They're for different subclasses, sure, but the flavour is very similar and the mechanics are definitely comparable (both are based around mixing in cleric spells and divine abilities into their respective classes).

Yes. See the rest of my post ;-)

In addition: a (small) problem that I have with the Divine Soul is that mixing in cleric spells has a huge opportunity cost. The sorcerer is already a class with a lot of great spells available, on all levels, but very few spells known. A subclass that makes the pool to choose from even larger, feels a bit wrong. It would have been better (more fun) imo if it would have gained cleric spell known (of all spell levels, or maybe 1-5
), depending on alignment.

[Dr. Cliché]

In addition: a (small) problem that I have with the Divine Soul is that mixing in cleric spells has a huge opportunity cost. The sorcerer is already a class with a lot of great spells available, on all levels, but very few spells known. A subclass that makes the pool to choose from even larger, feels a bit wrong. It would have been better (more fun) imo if it would have gained cleric spell known (of all spell levels, or maybe 1-5), depending on alignment.

I agree, though I think this is more an issue with sorcerers in general than with Divine Souls.

You're right in that Sorcerers have a very limited spell selection anyway, but since they basically have to find the 1-2 most versatile spells for each level, access to Divine spells doesn't hurt.

Still, it would have been better if, as you say, they'd been given some Cleric spells in addition to the ones they'd get normally. Maybe let them pick a Divine Domain and get those spells as extra ones?

The thing is though, I'd say the same for *every* sorcerer subclass. I think they should all give the sorcerer some extra spells known (with the Favoured Soul simply giving extra Cleric ones instead of extra Sorcerer ones).

[Specter]

This is a very strange comparison. It are subclasses to a different class. Some classes have more powerful abilities in the base class, others more in the subclass. So you really can't compare.

And even then: the Celestial Warlock and the Divine Soul Sorcerer can both replace the cleric, when one is absent in a party. But I'd argue the celestial warlock can do so a lot easier. It gets a large pool of healing without having to use spells known / spel slots to do. Bonus action healing, which is great (the Divine Soul needs to spend one of his precious spells known on healing word to get that ability). The Warlock has a stronger chassis (better hd, light armor); can use invocations to easily upgrade his defenses (while, again, the Divine Soul needs precious spells known for that). The Warlock has always stronger at will damage available with eldritch blast.

So no, the Divine Soul does not "completely trumps it" - even though it has a few very nice abilities in his own right, like Otherworldly Wings and Unearthly Recovery.

Yeah, no argument there. The only thing they have in common is they heal. DS spends precious spells known to do so, and Celestial gets a pool of healing. Otherwise, it's Warlock and Sorcerer.

[Asmotherion]

Overshadowed by the Hexblade.

If it got out before the Hexblade, it would probably have been the most popular patron around. However, the Hexblade is much more effective at what he does that the Celestial, wile the Celestial got a lot of Nerf from his UA version (exactly because people over-hyped on how amazing he would be, and were on the crytisizing end of the hype). I mean, there is specific text added in to make their abilities more luckluster (you add your charisma modifier on one targer per turn for radiant/fire spells?)

On the other hand, you have the Hexblade, the most straight-forwardly effective Gish Option this game has to offer, be it via Single Class, Multiclass or Dipping in and Out a few levels. It's only natural it would Overshadow/Steal the spotlight from the other new Patron.

[samcifer]

I find myself wishing I'd taken Celestial instead of Hexlade on my mc-ed divine soul sorc. I have too few HP to engage in melee, the extra AC hasn't really been that helpful as I hardly ever get attacked, the normal HB spells have been bleah other than Shield and the DM shot down my request to have access to the Flaming Sphere spell for my pyromaniac-style combat caster. :( Celestial would've worked much better for me in the end.

[Rebonack]

Celestial has a really solid team niche (combat medic) and ties with Fiend (tanky dude) in terms of Patrons that feel coherent both in terms of crunch and fluff.

Problem is, Hexblade just blows them out of the water while also being multi-class bait like no one's business. And many topics here are about multiclass builds.

My inclination is strip Hexblade of the Hexwarrior feature and give it to Blade Boon. Then rename Hexblade 'The Psychopomp'. Solve two problems at once.