A Paladin Pugilist?

[Ironsmith]

So, I'm looking to create a new character for a friend's campaign, and this was a concept that came up as a result of the whole "nonlethal damage" ruleset. I wanted to create a Paladin who went a bit further than usual and was actually a pacifist for the most part (focusing mostly on healing and support, and/or diplomacy, instead of being a frontline combatant), and I got the idea to have him use fisticuffs as his primary melee tool on the grounds that it's nonlethal according to the rules, and that would be a relatively easy way to get around any "thou shalt not kill" policies if need be ("I only broke his nose. He'll live.").

So, the trouble here is that, from what I remember, unarmed combat comes with a plethora of penalties without the "Improved Unarmed Strike" feat, but I can't remember what all they are. Basically, the short question here is, how bad would it be if I passed up this feat in favor of something else?

[Telonius]

Just from the concept, it sounds like you're aiming more towards a Sacred Fist (a Monk/Cleric multiclass prestige class) than a Paladin specifically. Possibly Sacred Vow/Vow of Nonviolence, as well.

[Ironsmith]

Maybe. Unfortunately, I've never seen the supplements for that, and the friend I mentioned requested that we stick to the vanilla game for the most part, anyway...

[Telonius]

If you're going PHB-only, it's going to be very tough to pull this off. Unarmed combat in general is hard to do without a lot of splatbook support, and Paladin is one of the weaker classes. The biggest penalty about attacking unarmed can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack):


Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity
Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

Those are some pretty horrible penalties. Having to eat an Attack of Opportunity each time you attack an enemy is a good way to get killed quickly, and not being able to use attacks of opportunity means that enemies can just walk around you to get to the squishy casters behind. Because of this, having Improved Unarmed Strike is basically required for doing what you're planning to do; IUS removes the penalties and lets you count as armed while unarmed.

If I had to build this kind of a character from Core-only sources, I'd probably take two levels of Monk first. (Beg your DM to allow you to use the Overwhelming Assault variant Monk. It's from Unearthed Arcana, is part of the open game license material, and can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les)). You'll be trading off a single point of Base Attack Bonus for two extra feats, a bunch of class skills, more skill points, better saves, and Evasion. If the DM allows Overwhelming Assault, you'll be getting a feat you would have wanted anyway (Power Attack) and one that might be situationally useful (Improved Bull Rush). Otherwise, take Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes.

[Ironsmith]

Part of the gameplan in putting this guy together was going to be focusing heavily on defense (high AC, magic items that assist in recovery, etc), which would hopefully help mitigate the worst of the Attack of Opportunity problems, but yeah, it definitely looks like IUS is the saner option.

Sadly, I don't think even the Overwhelming Assault Monk is going to be an option, since again, the DM here wants to keep this PHB-only. The trouble also with what you're suggesting is that it's a little too combat-focused; the goal here is to create a support character that can hold his own if it comes down to brass tacks (but generally avoids fighting in the first place), not one that will beat the ever-loving crap out of anything that enters a five-foot radius.

What I've got going right now is a Paladin with ability scores of [16,10,12,8,14,18] (fortunately, our DM is lenient with ability scores, and this is basically standard operating procedure as far as he's concerned). The high Charisma is meant to fuel Lay On Hands (to make the healing role more plausible), Divine Grace (reducing vulnerability to any number of pesky special abilities/traps), and out-of-combat skills like Diplomacy or Intimidate, and while Strength is a useful asset for any melee fighter, here, it's just meant to keep the worst of things like Armor Check Penalties at bay (and if it helps carry that tiny 1d3 in nonlethal damage a bit further, so much the better). Beyond that, any advice along those lines?

[Psyren]

If you're sticking to core this is tough to pull off as Paladins are weak already, and unarmed combat is a similarly weak fighting style without support.

If you can convince your DM to let you take some prestige classes, consider Argent Fist (which lets you be a monk/paladin multiclass, and wear armor while still getting your monk bonus to AC) or that one Paladin PrC that is focused around beating people up and hogtieing them. Peacefully.

[Sian]

Also, it's kinda difficult to play any type of Support character unless you're an all out caster (or Bard), unless you stack splat-book support the height of a building ... there is no good (and only a sparse handful of 'not terrible', all of which are varying grades of splat-book intensive as well) ways to force opponents to attack you instead of simply ignoring you and beeline your healer or other squishes.

[Telonius]

I would move that Wisdom score to something else. You won't be casting any spells until Paladin 4 anyway; by that time you ought to have the resources to get at least a +1 to allow you to cast spells (either from the level-up at 4 or from an item). Swapping it out with Dex will give you a bit of extra AC. On the other hand, if you put the 14 into Intelligence, you open up some possibilities on the Combat Expertise line of feats. Improved Disarm and Improved Trip sound like things you guy might be interested in. If you carry a Quarterstaff, you can use that to trip or disarm, and switch to unarmed if you need to.

[Ironsmith]

Also, it's kinda difficult to play any type of Support character unless you're an all out caster (or Bard), unless you stack splat-book support the height of a building ... there is no good (and only a sparse handful of 'not terrible', all of which are varying grades of splat-book intensive as well) ways to force opponents to attack you instead of simply ignoring you and beeline your healer or other squishes.

This is getting closer to what I'm looking for. The point is to sort of be the support you'd normally expect from a lower-level cleric or bard, but not as easy to put down. The point is less "shield for the medic" and more "medic in adamantine-laminated kevlar with some boxing experience".

[Drelua]

There's a lot of ways to make an unarmed fighting Paladin, but unfortunately there's not really anything you can do in core to make them more support focused. If you want to roleplay a Paladin while playing a support/healing character, I'd just play a Cleric and take a monk level. Maybe ask your DM to use fractional BAB so you're not going two levels without any.

There is a feat that would help for an unarmed Paladin, called Ascetic Knight. It makes your monk and paladin levels stack for unarmed damage, but that doesn't seem like it's going to be allowed.

[Red Fel]

This is getting closer to what I'm looking for. The point is to sort of be the support you'd normally expect from a lower-level cleric or bard, but not as easy to put down. The point is less "shield for the medic" and more "medic in adamantine-laminated kevlar with some boxing experience".

Then the answer to that is to simply be a healing class, full stop. You've made the point that you want this character to be bad at hurting people - fine, let him engage in unarmed combat, at penalty and dealing nonlethal damage, no Monk required. Alternatively, pick up a Merciful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#merciful) weapon, and become really good at knocking people out non-lethally that way.

Heck, just go straight-up Cleric if you really want to be healer-in-armor. Spontaneously cast healing spells, buff the party, and just get a Merciful mace and you're set. For what you describe, Cleric is honestly a better choice - you're not going to Smite things, and two good saves are more in line with what you describe than one.

Going down the IUS road is a bit inconsistent - if the goal is for him to be bad at hurting things, and the solution is to make him unarmed, why go on to make him good at unarmed?

[Ironsmith]

There's a lot of ways to make an unarmed fighting Paladin, but unfortunately there's not really anything you can do in core to make them more support focused. If you want to roleplay a Paladin while playing a support/healing character, I'd just play a Cleric and take a monk level. Maybe ask your DM to use fractional BAB so you're not going two levels without any.

There is a feat that would help for an unarmed Paladin, called Ascetic Knight. It makes your monk and paladin levels stack for unarmed damage, but that doesn't seem like it's going to be allowed

Yeah, I don't think Ascetic Knight is going to be allowed. Again, we're running a pretty vanilla game... maybe I should consider a reclass to Cleric, though.


Then the answer to that is to simply be a healing class, full stop. You've made the point that you want this character to be bad at hurting people - fine, let him engage in unarmed combat, at penalty and dealing nonlethal damage, no Monk required. Alternatively, pick up a Merciful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#merciful) weapon, and become really good at knocking people out non-lethally that way.

Heck, just go straight-up Cleric if you really want to be healer-in-armor. Spontaneously cast healing spells, buff the party, and just get a Merciful mace and you're set. For what you describe, Cleric is honestly a better choice - you're not going to Smite things, and two good saves are more in line with what you describe than one.

Going down the IUS road is a bit inconsistent - if the goal is for him to be bad at hurting things, and the solution is to make him unarmed, why go on to make him good at unarmed?

The point isn't so much for him to be bad at hurting people so much as bad at killing them. IUS still allows a nonlethal option, but does so without those annoying attacks of opportunity or denial of the same, which holds a lot more appeal than spending a level on Monk and trying to make sense of/negotiate the cross-classing rules with my DM, especially given how many class features a first-level monk has that just don't fit here. As for not taking a merciful weapon, it saves the trouble of picking up a 2,300+ gp mace/dagger/stick/whatever, when the funds could be better used solidifying defense/support- a wand of Cure Light Wounds costs less than a third as much but already expands the support potential quite a bit past normal capabilities.

[Lapak]

Be a Cleric, get a Wand of Cure Light so you can use your spell selection to do the ‘nonlethal takedowns’ aspect. Start with Command and build from there; maybe use it to make them vulnerable to grappling attempts by making them disarm, for example. Don’t hit anybody until you can afford a merciful weapon.

It’s going to be much easier to build out a ‘subdue without killing’ Cleric build based on spells than it is to do the unarmed Paladin thing - core-only that’s going to be rough.

[Telonius]

Yeah, I don't think Ascetic Knight is going to be allowed. Again, we're running a pretty vanilla game... maybe I should consider a reclass to Cleric, though.



The point isn't so much for him to be bad at hurting people so much as bad at killing them. IUS still allows a nonlethal option, but does so without those annoying attacks of opportunity or denial of the same, which holds a lot more appeal than spending a level on Monk and trying to make sense of/negotiate the cross-classing rules with my DM, especially given how many class features a first-level monk has that just don't fit here. As for not taking a merciful weapon, it saves the trouble of picking up a 2,300+ gp mace/dagger/stick/whatever, when the funds could be better used solidifying defense/support- a wand of Cure Light Wounds costs less than a third as much but already expands the support potential quite a bit past normal capabilities.

Yikes, there's PHB-only and then there's just inhumane. So seriously by-the-book in all regards, including the multiclassing XP rules (which should be excluded from any game, ever, yes even then).

If you're human, and take the two levels of Monk before Paladin, multiclass rules won't matter at all. Human gives you a single class to ignore the multiclass XP penalty; so you have nothing to worry about there. (That's if you actually go the Monk/Paladin route. Personally I'd prefer to go Cleric, but it sounded like you were dead set on Paladin).

[Ironsmith]

All right, I think I've just about figured out what I'm gonna do here. Thanks for the help, guys.

[Arkhios]

PHB only IUS Paladin eh?

Since you haven't said whether this game used 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder rules, I'm going to assume 3.5.

Bear in mind that unarmed strike's base damage is pretty horrible (1d3 for a medium creature). Not only because it's quite low but also because d3 isn't a standard die. I know you can use d6, but why couldn't it just be 1d4 instead?

To start with monk isn't terribly bad idea to get IUS, because you also get more decent damage with unarmed strikes, although with those stats, many of the monk's features will go to waste if you wear any kind of armor, which you probably will.

To be fair, though, without at least 4 levels of monk, your unarmed strikes will be pretty bad, because I don't recall any "core" magic items that would make your unarmed strikes magic weapons otherwise (trust me, it'll become frustrating later if you can't penetrate DR/magic).

Also, since you seem to be fairly adamant about non-violent combat, You'll want Improved Grapple which you can get as a bonus from monk, and later also Improved Disarm. Disarm is a rather rarely used trick, but it can really put your opponents into bad odds when their primary means to deal damage are stripped away from them. But, to get it most painlessly, you need 6 levels in monk. I get it that you want paladin levels, probably ASAP, but Monk has similar restriction to multiclassing as paladin, and imho, you definitely should take monk levels first.

Or...if you're up for it... consider taking only 3 levels in paladin but take them first. That way you get the best class features paladin has to offer: Divine Grace, Divine Health, and Aura of Courage. Honestly, Smite Evil sucks balls in 3.5. Don't fret about losing more uses for it. Lay on Hands is decent, though not that necessary. Keep it only as a back-up means to prevent your fallen allies from dying.
Of course, this will delay IUS and Improved Grapple until 4th character level, but it's not that bad. You can use sap until then to deal non-lethal damage without penalties.

[Ellrin]

To be fair, though, without at least 4 levels of monk, your unarmed strikes will be pretty bad, because I don't recall any "core" magic items that would make your unarmed strikes magic weapons otherwise (trust me, it'll become frustrating later if you can't penetrate DR/magic).

Amulet of mighty fists?

[Arkhios]

Amulet of mighty fists?

Huh. I could've sworn that was added in Pathfinder. But I had to double check my facts... so, my bad, I guess? Anyway, 6000 gp even for +1 is pretty steep cost just for making your unarmed strikes magical. Even compared to 4 levels in monk. And even if I could afford that, I'd much rather take Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and that would still leave 4000 gp to get something more useful, like, any +1 weapon, cloak of resistance +1, and bracers of armor +1... Assuming I could even buy magic items. Just because something can be done by RAW doesn't mean you can count on your DM to let you.

[Ellrin]

Huh. I could've sworn that was added in Pathfinder. But I had to double check my facts... so, my bad, I guess? Anyway, 6000 gp even for +1 is pretty steep cost just for making your unarmed strikes magical. Even compared to 4 levels in monk. And even if I could afford that, I'd much rather take Amulet of Natural Armor +1 or add 2000gp and take the +2 version instead... Assuming I could even buy magic items. Just because something can be done by RAW doesn't mean you can count on your DM to let you.

While it's always possible that the DM can restrict access to specific items, he'd have to be giving the party way, WAY under suggested WBL for me to consider 2 or more levels out of a build to be worth less than 6K gp and a body slot.

[Ironsmith]

PHB only IUS Paladin eh?

Since you haven't said whether this game used 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder rules, I'm going to assume 3.5.

Bear in mind that unarmed strike's base damage is pretty horrible (1d3 for a medium creature). Not only because it's quite low but also because d3 isn't a standard die. I know you can use d6, but why couldn't it just be 1d4 instead?

To start with monk isn't terribly bad idea to get IUS, because you also get more decent damage with unarmed strikes, although with those stats, many of the monk's features will go to waste if you wear any kind of armor, which you probably will.

To be fair, though, without at least 4 levels of monk, your unarmed strikes will be pretty bad, because I don't recall any "core" magic items that would make your unarmed strikes magic weapons otherwise (trust me, it'll become frustrating later if you can't penetrate DR/magic).

Also, since you seem to be fairly adamant about non-violent combat, You'll want Improved Grapple which you can get as a bonus from monk, and later also Improved Disarm. Disarm is a rather rarely used trick, but it can really put your opponents into bad odds when their primary means to deal damage are stripped away from them. But, to get it most painlessly, you need 6 levels in monk. I get it that you want paladin levels, probably ASAP, but Monk has similar restriction to multiclassing as paladin, and imho, you definitely should take monk levels first.

Or...if you're up for it... consider taking only 3 levels in paladin but take them first. That way you get the best class features paladin has to offer: Divine Grace, Divine Health, and Aura of Courage. Honestly, Smite Evil sucks balls in 3.5. Don't fret about losing more uses for it. Lay on Hands is decent, though not that necessary. Keep it only as a back-up means to prevent your fallen allies from dying.
Of course, this will delay IUS and Improved Grapple until 4th character level, but it's not that bad. You can use sap until then to deal non-lethal damage without penalties.

My bad; yes, this is 3.5. Now would probably also be a good time to mention that the target level is pretty low (party level 3rd, but said party was originally going to be much bigger, so I wouldn't be surprised if the DM decides to push it up; for now, though, still running with the assumption that it's gonna be low).

Anyway, yeah, I'm well aware that the damage on an unarmed strike is... less-than-great, we'll say. But at the same time, damage isn't a high priority here; I'll be satisfied with having a means for the time being that doesn't make the character extremely vulnerable in the meantime.

The monk idea's basically off the table for what I have in mind: armor. Lots and lots and holy-hell-how-did-a-3rd-level-character-get-a-base-AC-of-20 kinds of armor. I'm going to be running either a paladin, a cleric, or an eventual mix (taking Paladin levels first, since again, all the good stuff sans spells come in the first few levels). Additionally, while there's not many items that make unarmed strikes better, there is indeed a set of rules in the core books that allows for enchanted gauntlets, which would still benefit from IUS, since while they can be used lethally, they're still considered unarmed attacks.

Improved Grapple sounds like a good idea, but I'll need to re-spec if I'm going to take it. In the meantime, Power Attack holds some appeal as a prerequisite to Improved Sunder, which could be pretty useful for the purposes of forcing an opponent to resort to unarmed combat, even if I have to wait another couple levels to actually get it. (Not to mention, the mental image is hilarious; a bugbear charges up to the guy in heavy armor, then ends up having to fistfight because the guy nope'd his weapon.)

Also, in another level, the Paladin option has the capability to cast Cure Light Wounds without the use of a wand (and being a divine spellcaster, unless I'm mistaken about how the rules work, is unaffected by how much armor they're wearing). In the meantime, having a sufficiently high Wisdom and with it being on everybody's spell list, a Paladin could supplement healing with a wand. Lay On Hands and Smite Evil would also still have their uses, especially if the DM sends any undead our way (which would be exempt from the pacifist conduct I had in mind, for many of the same reasons a malevolent sandbag would be).

In addition to this, regardless of which class option I end up going with, I'm going to be keeping a small supply of Potions of Mage Armor on hand. With the +4 those give tacked onto the +8 from full plate and +2 from a shield, that brings AC up to 24 in emergency situations; by comparison, a Ghast (CR 3) gets only +5 on its best attacks, meaning it needs a 19-20 to hit under those circumstances (and needs to be close enough to get smote/cure'd). Alternatively, these could be handed out to particularly vulnerable party members... perhaps not the most traditional form of support role, but still likely to be of help.

[Lapak]

I like the concept of what you’re trying to do, but the mechanics don’t support it; for example, Mage Armor won’t stack with actual armor - they both give an Armor bonus, so you just use the better one.

[Bohandas]

Then the answer to that is to simply be a healing class, full stop. You've made the point that you want this character to be bad at hurting people - fine, let him engage in unarmed combat, at penalty and dealing nonlethal damage, no Monk required. Alternatively, pick up a Merciful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#merciful) weapon, and become really good at knocking people out non-lethally that way.

Heck, just go straight-up Cleric if you really want to be healer-in-armor. Spontaneously cast healing spells, buff the party, and just get a Merciful mace and you're set. For what you describe, Cleric is honestly a better choice - you're not going to Smite things, and two good saves are more in line with what you describe than one.

Going down the IUS road is a bit inconsistent - if the goal is for him to be bad at hurting things, and the solution is to make him unarmed, why go on to make him good at unarmed?

Paladin is the combat healing class. Unlike cure wounds, lay on hands doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity (plus it isn't a spell and thus can't be disrupted like one anyway)

[Ironsmith]

I like the concept of what you’re trying to do, but the mechanics don’t support it; for example, Mage Armor won’t stack with actual armor - they both give an Armor bonus, so you just use the better one.

...Dammit, thought I had something going there. I'm sure I can find something equally useful, though.

EDIT: Took literally a minute of searching: potions of Protection From Evil still grant a +2 to AC, as well as bonuses to saves and a few other useful effects, for the same price.

[KillingAScarab]

I like the concept of what you’re trying to do, but the mechanics don’t support it; for example, Mage Armor won’t stack with actual armor - they both give an Armor bonus, so you just use the better one.Correct. If you want potions that will still increase your AC, you're looking for barkskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/barkskin.htm). You could get magic vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm) in oil form. Mage armor would work better with a monk.

Edit: forgot about shield of faith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOfFaith.htm), also available as a potion.

[Ellrin]

In the meantime, Power Attack holds some appeal as a prerequisite to Improved Sunder, which could be pretty useful for the purposes of forcing an opponent to resort to unarmed combat, even if I have to wait another couple levels to actually get it. (Not to mention, the mental image is hilarious; a bugbear charges up to the guy in heavy armor, then ends up having to fistfight because the guy nope'd his weapon.)

It's been said many times over the years, but I'd just like to point out as a reminder that sunder is a less than ideal option mechanically, since if it works, it removes potentially valuable loot from the drop table. It's also likely to be harder to succeed at than disarm for a core-only non-monk unarmed striker, since you're going to have a hell of a time just doing enough damage to get through hardness at pretty much any level.

The idea is sound, but with the available material, mechanically it just seems underwhelming.

[KillingAScarab]

It's been said many times over the years, but I'd just like to point out as a reminder that sunder is a less than ideal option mechanically, since if it works, it removes potentially valuable loot from the drop table. It's also likely to be harder to succeed at than disarm for a core-only non-monk unarmed striker, since you're going to have a hell of a time just doing enough damage to get through hardness at pretty much any level.

The idea is sound, but with the available material, mechanically it just seems underwhelming.Even leather has a hardness of 2, but hardness isn't even the main problem with an unarmed sunder attempt. Without improved unarmed strike, you normally do nonlethal damage, with which you cannot even damage an object. So, you need to take a further -4 penalty to the attack roll to try to damage an object, when you could have just picked up a club or even put on a gauntlet. It is arguably better to attempt an unarmed disarm, even though you're still going to have the same -4 penalty for using a light weapon as you do during a sunder. If you surprise everyone at the table and succeed, then you can just take the weapon away.

[Sapreaver]

Has anyone mentioned merciful spiked gauntlet yet?
Merciful spiked gauntlets
Merciful armour spikes.
And a minor focus on grappling.
Makes decent use of the 16 strength bypasses magic dr and can be further enchanted. And it bypasses the penalties for unarmed strike while providing better dpr with no feat investment.

Is also hilarious. You would look intimidating as all heck hopefully making them attack you but you deal no real damage.
Also does merciful overrride generic damage increases such as vicious? If so why not?

[Ironsmith]

It's been said many times over the years, but I'd just like to point out as a reminder that sunder is a less than ideal option mechanically, since if it works, it removes potentially valuable loot from the drop table. It's also likely to be harder to succeed at than disarm for a core-only non-monk unarmed striker, since you're going to have a hell of a time just doing enough damage to get through hardness at pretty much any level.

The idea is sound, but with the available material, mechanically it just seems underwhelming.

Just a point of comparison here...

Average Steel Longsword: Hardness 10, HP 5, resell value of 7 gp
Steel Longsword with a +1 bonus: Hardness 12, HP 15, resell value of 1,157 gp

Average Steel Flail: Hardness 5, HP 5, resell value of 4 gp
Steel Flail with a +1 bonus: Hardness 7, HP 15, resell value of 1,154 gp

Average Steel Dagger: Hardness 10, HP 2, resell value of 1 gp
Steel Dagger with a +1 bonus: Hardness 12, HP 12, resell value of 1,151 gp

Basically, what I'm getting at here is that the "valuable loot" you mentioned would be the stuff I generally don't have to worry about breaking (breaking mundane weapons would be hard enough). Additionally, getting this feat is still another 3 levels (and about 10,000 gp) away, so it's not inconceivable that I could get my hands on/commission a magic item that would help with sundering (something that could replicate the effects of Shatter, for example, would make a phenomenal choice, especially since the spell description itself states that it doesn't work on those oh-so-valuable magic weapons, shields, and armor).

[Falontani]

How about a Sap?

[Bohandas]

The Monk's Belt wondrous item grants the unarmed damage of a fifth level monk