Bard/Rogue build

[PhantomVector]

So I’m still pretty new to 5e but less new to dnd overall. So I need some expert help, please and thank you.

I’m thinking of making a Tiefling Bard/Rogue subclassing into College of Valor and maybe Arcane Trickster(this is Int casting right?) if I roll well enough(we use 4d6 and drop the lowest) or if I don’t have the stats for a Cha/Int/Dex/Con heavy character maybe just assassin or thief.

Is this a workable mutliclass overall? Or is it too MAD to be viable if I roll too low especially if I want Arcane Trickster? What ratio of Bard to Rogue do I want? I want to hit 10 bard for magical secrets or 14 for battle magic, slash and blast baby, but Reliable talent is very hard to pass up. Take 10 if I roll 9 or lower excluding Crit fails(unless reliable talent covers this?) is pretty ridiculous especially since I always seem to roll shoddy. Evasion as well considering how not Tanky I’ll be but that’ll end me up at 13B/7R and I lose battle magic by one level. To be fair we’re apparently playing on deadly difficulty so I might not make it to 20 anyways.

While I’ll probably end up as the face of the party, I do want to be a bit more battle bard then just the pretty face.

Also I could use some advice on feats and how I want to level this character. You like how many levels of bard or rogue should I take before I start to level the other?

[craverguy]

A Bard/Rogue in and of itself is not MAD. A Bard/Arcane Trickster is MAD, though, since you need Charisma to cast Bard Spells, Intelligence for Arcane Trickster spells, and Dexterity and Constitution for everything else. Plus, most of the Arcane Trickster spells worth taking are also Bard spells.

[Ali_face]

Id go Rogue (Swashbuckler) 5/ Bard (Valor or Swords) X

+ Charisma Synergy (You'd only need Dex and Cha to make this work)
+ Uncanny Dodge (Reaction for 1/2 dmg is just great action economy)
+ +3d6 Sneak Attack dice, with an easier to trigger Sneak Attack and half the Mobility feat built in
+ CHA to Init, so you should quickly have an Init bonus of +9/+10
+ Decent Bard abilities (You'll still get your capstone subclass feature and d12 inspiration dice)

If you absolutely need to have lvl 9 spells, then your break point would be Rogue (Swashbuckler) 3/ Bard 17. You'd still get most of the things I listed above, but will miss out on Uncanny Dodge and will have lower SA dice (+2d6)

Like most MC builds with primary casters, you really have to get a lot to justify the lack of spell progression.

Bards are overall a really powerful class with a ton of versatility... conceptually you can do all of those things with just straight Bard 20.

Adding Rogue will help your combat prowess and action economy the most.

[PhantomVector]

Id go Rogue (Swashbuckler) 5/ Bard (Valor or Swords) X

+ Charisma Synergy (You'd only need Dex and Cha to make this work)
+ Uncanny Dodge (Reaction for 1/2 dmg is just great action economy)
+ +3d6 Sneak Attack dice, with an easier to trigger Sneak Attack and half the Mobility feat built in
+ CHA to Init, so you should quickly have an Init bonus of +9/+10
+ Decent Bard abilities (You'll still get your capstone subclass feature and d12 inspiration dice)

If you absolutely need to have lvl 9 spells, then your break point would be Rogue (Swashbuckler) 3/ Bard 17. You'd still get most of the things I listed above, but will miss out on Uncanny Dodge and will have lower SA dice (+2d6)

Like most MC builds with primary casters, you really have to get a lot to justify the lack of spell progression.

Bards are overall a really powerful class with a ton of versatility... conceptually you can do all of those things with just straight Bard 20.

Adding Rogue will help your combat prowess and action economy the most.

How should I level my character as I play? Like should how many levels of bard should I go before I start to level rogue or vice versa? Is sword is xanathar’s? I just ask that typically we just use the books. I had to argue for booming blade since it’s SCAG. But pretty worth. 1D8+1D6+1D8 level three on a sneak attack is pretty awesome. Though my dm is pretty cool, long as it’s not broken he’ll even allow homebrews.

[Spiderguy24]

How should I level my character as I play? Like should how many levels of bard should I go before I start to level rogue or vice versa? Is sword is xanathar’s? I just ask that typically we just use the books. I had to argue for booming blade since it’s SCAG. But pretty worth. 1D8+1D6+1D8 level three on a sneak attack is pretty awesome. Though my dm is pretty cool, long as it’s not broken he’ll even allow homebrews.

Swords is in Xanathar's. It doesn't have battle magic, but it's other offerings is very nice if you want to focus a bit more on sword play.

[PhantomVector]

Swords is in Xanathar's. It doesn't have battle magic, but it's other offerings is very nice if you want to focus a bit more on sword play.

Do you think it’s better then Valor? Don’t have Xanathar’s yet :( ordered through a local shop but I haven’t heard back yet and it’s been a month. So if they had it it’s probably gone, or they just haven’t gotten yet.

Can you use battle magic on both attack actions? I’m not wholly familiar with spell casting in 5e. That seems to be a fair bit of extra damage.

[Spiderguy24]

Do you think it’s better then Valor? Don’t have Xanathar’s yet :( ordered through a local shop but I haven’t heard back yet and it’s been a month. So if they had it it’s probably gone, or they just haven’t gotten yet.

Can you use battle magic on both attack actions? I’m not wholly familiar with spell casting in 5e. That seems to be a fair bit of extra damage.

Sadly I can not say. I haven't played Valor to level 14 yet to properly answer that question. As for which is better, same answer with Swords. Thing with battle magic, is that you can only cast one spell per turn (round?) unless it's a bonus action spell. So you're looking at one weapon attack per turn since a bonus action isn't technically an attack action, so extra attack won't come into play unless your DM allows it.

Swords on the other hand, from what I've read, allows you to make two attacks per round with extra attack, not counting reaction and a bonus action attack if you use dual wielding. That said, you can only use one blade flourish option per turn, but you still get your attacks when you do. So it's up to preference in this case.

[PhantomVector]

Sadly I can not say. I haven't played Valor to level 14 yet to properly answer that question. As for which is better, same answer with Swords. Thing with battle magic, is that you can only cast one spell per turn (round?) unless it's a bonus action spell. So you're looking at one weapon attack per turn since a bonus action isn't technically an attack action, so extra attack won't come into play unless your DM allows it.

Swords on the other hand, from what I've read, allows you to make two attacks per round with extra attack, not counting reaction and a bonus action attack if you use dual wielding. That said, you can only use one blade flourish option per turn, but you still get your attacks when you do. So it's up to preference in this case.

Wonder if bard/sorcerer is good, pretty sure they got quicken spell so they could cast two spells a turn for a few turns.

Hm. I’ll have to look into it. Thanks :3

[Spiderguy24]

Wonder if bard/sorcerer is good, pretty sure they got quicken spell so they could cast two spells a turn for a few turns.

Hm. I’ll have to look into it. Thanks :3

No problem! When you get Xanathar's, definitely take a look at the Swords college. Depending on how far you want to go into Sorcerer, it might be a better option than Valor, especially if you enjoy swordplay. It also helps that Swords gives you a choice of fighting style between Dueling and Two-Weapon fighting. You can also use your weapon as a spellcasting focus.

[Xihirli]

If you like support builds, mastermind 3/ lore bard rest works well. You can use your bonus action to help instead of using bardic inspiration and save those dice for cutting words.

@Sorcerer/Bard combo:
Quickening explicitly does not allow you to cast more than one spell per turn.
Well, one has to be a cantrip, anyway.

[Specter]

You can go Arcane Trickster if you are happy with anaverage INT; you can get some decent spells that require no save at all. Picking Find Familiar or Shield at level 3 gives you a nice spell that Bard wouldn't get.

Also Arcane Trickster gives you Magical Amvush at level 9, which makes your save spells from either class much more powerful.

[RickAsWritten]

I've been planning a similar character, but with the Whispers Bard instead; to keep scaling pseudo-Sneak Attack damage. I think I've narrowed down the level progression to Rogue 2--> Bard 5--> Rogue 5-->Bard x. The damage scales exactly like a regular Rogue(with a Cha-mod limiter), but comes with Bard spellcasting goodies. It seems like it will play like a nice Arcane Trickster alternate.

What I can't decide is which race/subclass choice would be better from a pure mechanics point of view. Half Elf/Swashbuckler or Vuman with Mobile/Mastermind. Half Elf gives me more skills and extra points to raise tertiary stats, but with that level progression, Rakish Audacity won't come online until kinda late. Vuman gives me extra speed, free walkaway from the get-go, and the ranged, bonus-action Help lets me pretend like I didn't waste all my Bardic Inspirations to stab the crap outta someone. Roleplay wise, there's not a lot of difference between the two. Input welcome.

[PhantomVector]

I've been planning a similar character, but with the Whispers Bard instead; to keep scaling pseudo-Sneak Attack damage. I think I've narrowed down the level progression to Rogue 2--> Bard 5--> Rogue 5-->Bard x. The damage scales exactly like a regular Rogue(with a Cha-mod limiter), but comes with Bard spellcasting goodies. It seems like it will play like a nice Arcane Trickster alternate.

What I can't decide is which race/subclass choice would be better from a pure mechanics point of view. Half Elf/Swashbuckler or Vuman with Mobile/Mastermind. Half Elf gives me more skills and extra points to raise tertiary stats, but with that level progression, Rakish Audacity won't come online until kinda late. Vuman gives me extra speed, free walkaway from the get-go, and the ranged, bonus-action Help lets me pretend like I didn't waste all my Bardic Inspirations to stab the crap outta someone. Roleplay wise, there's not a lot of difference between the two. Input welcome.

Personally I don't play humans much, while Vuman(heh I like the name) is strong with that starting feat, not having dark vision kinda kills humans for me. Maybe its just the people that have DM'd for me but generally dungeons are dark, and torches or other light sources are just a way of explaining ambushes lol. Plus its a cantrip that can be used for something else. I feel like Half elf is generally a strong choice. Swashbuckler looks good on paper too, and being able to save that bonus action instead of using it to disengage is pretty wonderful too. But I'm a little selfish in that regard. Cause if you help with mastermind you can't disengage from melee. Now if you're a fully ranged rogue then that doesn't come into play as often. But I generally like to play swordsmen, unless I'm playing a spell caster, and even then there are options like bladesinger, or bladelock is I want to go melee.

[PhantomVector]

You can go Arcane Trickster if you are happy with anaverage INT; you can get some decent spells that require no save at all. Picking Find Familiar or Shield at level 3 gives you a nice spell that Bard wouldn't get.

Also Arcane Trickster gives you Magical Amvush at level 9, which makes your save spells from either class much more powerful.

Are spells with saves worth it? I remember 3.5 at least for my experience any spells with saves just kinda sucked whence you got high enough in level. I eventually just took a couple control spells, utility, and blasters for the rest of my spell slots. Typically I tried to stay with spells that didn't have saves as often times the monsters had some ridiculous save stats.

[PhantomVector]

If you like support builds, mastermind 3/ lore bard rest works well. You can use your bonus action to help instead of using bardic inspiration and save those dice for cutting words.

@Sorcerer/Bard combo:
Quickening explicitly does not allow you to cast more than one spell per turn.
Well, one has to be a cantrip, anyway.

Dunno if I can use mastermind, its a SCAG specific one I think, and generally we've stuck to books. Had to argue a bit for booming blade, but long as its balanced I think its cool so I'll look into it. How effective is help? Is it worth it?

[MxKit]

Dunno if I can use mastermind, its a SCAG specific one I think, and generally we've stuck to books. Had to argue a bit for booming blade, but long as its balanced I think its cool so I'll look into it. How effective is help? Is it worth it?

Mastermind is in Xanathar's Guide now too!

And Help is super good; it's a big part of why people really like find familiar. Since Masterminds can Help as a bonus action and can be up to 30 feet away from the enemy target, you're really going to be able to make your party members love you, and you'll still be able to attack.

That said, if you want to disengage a lot and go melee, Swashbuckler may be your best bet.

[Specter]

Are spells with saves worth it? I remember 3.5 at least for my experience any spells with saves just kinda sucked whence you got high enough in level. I eventually just took a couple control spells, utility, and blasters for the rest of my spell slots. Typically I tried to stay with spells that didn't have saves as often times the monsters had some ridiculous save stats.

Your save DC is 8 + your casting stat + your proficiency bonus. For the sake of argument, let's assume you're a 9th-level Arcane Trickster with 12 INT, so that's 13. If you're casting Tasha's at a 9th-level Cleric with maxed WIS and proficiency on his save, he'd normally have 15% chance of failing his save. Throw in disadvantage, and it's a 27,75% chance.

This is, of course, considering someone good at the save. If you cast it at another Rogue that has only a +1 to WIS, that's 55% chance of failing normally... And 79,75% with Magical Ambush.

Yeah, it's good.

[Chugger]

One lvl in hexblade and you're not MAD. And you get shield spell if you want it.

[Citan]

So I’m still pretty new to 5e but less new to dnd overall. So I need some expert help, please and thank you.

I’m thinking of making a Tiefling Bard/Rogue subclassing into College of Valor and maybe Arcane Trickster(this is Int casting right?) if I roll well enough(we use 4d6 and drop the lowest) or if I don’t have the stats for a Cha/Int/Dex/Con heavy character maybe just assassin or thief.

Is this a workable mutliclass overall? Or is it too MAD to be viable if I roll too low especially if I want Arcane Trickster? What ratio of Bard to Rogue do I want? I want to hit 10 bard for magical secrets or 14 for battle magic, slash and blast baby, but Reliable talent is very hard to pass up. Take 10 if I roll 9 or lower excluding Crit fails(unless reliable talent covers this?) is pretty ridiculous especially since I always seem to roll shoddy. Evasion as well considering how not Tanky I’ll be but that’ll end me up at 13B/7R and I lose battle magic by one level. To be fair we’re apparently playing on deadly difficulty so I might not make it to 20 anyways.

While I’ll probably end up as the face of the party, I do want to be a bit more battle bard then just the pretty face.

Also I could use some advice on feats and how I want to level this character. You like how many levels of bard or rogue should I take before I start to level the other?
Hi :)

A Bard/Rogue in and of itself is not MAD. A Bard/Arcane Trickster is MAD, though, since you need Charisma to cast Bard Spells, Intelligence for Arcane Trickster spells, and Dexterity and Constitution for everything else. Plus, most of the Arcane Trickster spells worth taking are also Bard spells.
Not necessarily: you can perfectly pick only non-INT dependent spells as Rogue to instead get good stats in CHA, CON and DEX. It's not even a multiclass requirement. ;)
Shield, Magic Missile, Sleep, Color Spray, Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility, Longstrider, the new "Blade" spell from Xanathar which I forgot name, etc...
Or you could do the reverse and keep only low CHA... But I'd argue that is more detrimental since CHA also affects the number of Bardic Inspiration and from shallow memories a few other things too.

I'd suggest aiming at...
Rogue 5 / Bard 3 for first "step"
Then either straight Rogue 11 for Evasion, Magical Ambush, Reliable Talent...
Or Bard 6 first for that Extra Attack...

Probable end build would be Rogue between 9 and 12, Bard rest. ;)

[Arkhios]

Personally, I'm quite fond of Rogue 11/Bard 9 split. The levels can be divided so that you get ASI's at exactly same levels as most single classes do: at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th.

It would also make you feel like an arcane half-caster.

Regardless of Bard College or Rogue Archetype really.

I'd probably go with dualwielding Swords/Swashbuckler
Or
Lore/Arcane Trickster

[PhantomVector]

One lvl in hexblade and you're not MAD. And you get shield spell if you want it.

I’m not too familiar with warlocks, hex blade?

[PhantomVector]

Your save DC is 8 + your casting stat + your proficiency bonus. For the sake of argument, let's assume you're a 9th-level Arcane Trickster with 12 INT, so that's 13. If you're casting Tasha's at a 9th-level Cleric with maxed WIS and proficiency on his save, he'd normally have 15% chance of failing his save. Throw in disadvantage, and it's a 27,75% chance.

This is, of course, considering someone good at the save. If you cast it at another Rogue that has only a +1 to WIS, that's 55% chance of failing normally... And 79,75% with Magical Ambush.

Yeah, it's good.

Lol I’ll keep it in mind :3

[Citan]

Personally, I'm quite fond of Rogue 11/Bard 9 split. The levels can be divided so that you get ASI's at exactly same levels as most single classes do: at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th.

It would also make you feel like an arcane half-caster.

Regardless of Bard College or Rogue Archetype really.

I'd probably go with dualwielding Swords/Swashbuckler
Or
Lore/Arcane Trickster
Agreed with you, but I'm very biaised by the fact I'm most often the one using skills the most and in that regard Reliable Talent is the best anyone could hope for.

However, if one would go for a character that dont make skill cjecks intensively, stacking Expertise with an Enhance Ability would be largely sufficient. : )

And AT9 / Bard 11 means access to 6th level spells and lvl5 Magic Secrets which open many nasty tricks when paired with Magical Ambush too. ^^

Anyways these are capstone discussions... IMO the priority is to define the minimum lvl you want in each class and the general orientation of your character to know which class to push first. : )

[PhantomVector]

Agreed with you, but I'm very biaised by the fact I'm most often the one using skills the most and in that regard Reliable Talent is the best anyone could hope for.

However, if one would go for a character that dont make skill cjecks intensively, stacking Expertise with an Enhance Ability would be largely sufficient. : )

And AT9 / Bard 11 means access to 6th level spells and lvl5 Magic Secrets which open many nasty tricks when paired with Magical Ambush too. ^^

Anyways these are capstone discussions... IMO the priority is to define the minimum lvl you want in each class and the general orientation of your character to know which class to push first. : )

I thought magical secrets was level 10 for bard?

Yeah that’s kind of my issue I got pushed a bit into being a skill monkey/trap guy/social face(sort of, we have two paladins but neither are super charismatic.)

So I’m forseeing a lot of skill checks in my future.

Personally I’d like to be more combat oriented but as the guy who’s gonna be walking around with the pole popping traps I want to be as prepared as possible.

[Xihirli]

Dunno if I can use mastermind, its a SCAG specific one I think, and generally we've stuck to books. Had to argue a bit for booming blade, but long as its balanced I think its cool so I'll look into it. How effective is help? Is it worth it?

Depends on your party. The help action gives them advantage on one attack, which can be lethal if you have another party rogue but is pretty good for any member of your party. Your battlemaster who wants to trip their opponent as their opening attack will like the chance to almost definitely hit on their first blow, your Champion will have a 20 to 30% chance of critting depending on the level instead of their usual 10 to 15%, and your wizard will feel confident in throwing an expensively-leveled attack roll spell. It's unlimited use and a bonus action, so you can shoot and then give an ally Help.
It's pretty good for support builds, but what you were describing in your OP wasn't one.

[Specter]

I thought magical secrets was level 10 for bard?.

It is, but Lore subclass gives you two more.

[PhantomVector]

It is, but Lore subclass gives you two more.

Hm, perhaps swashbuckler/lore might be interesting. Guess it’ll depend on what I want to do, be more spellcaster or swordsman.

[PhantomVector]

Depends on your party. The help action gives them advantage on one attack, which can be lethal if you have another party rogue but is pretty good for any member of your party. Your battlemaster who wants to trip their opponent as their opening attack will like the chance to almost definitely hit on their first blow, your Champion will have a 20 to 30% chance of critting depending on the level instead of their usual 10 to 15%, and your wizard will feel confident in throwing an expensively-leveled attack roll spell. It's unlimited use and a bonus action, so you can shoot and then give an ally Help.
It's pretty good for support builds, but what you were describing in your OP wasn't one.

Yeah I typically play more damage type characters, but perhaps a mastermind/lore multiclass would be good. Or perhaps I should grab mastermind/Valor or Swords to bump up my melee ability. I like to be up front for better or worse unless I’m in a dedicated spell caster with no AC lol.

Hm. Maybe Ranged is better, and potentially safer. Plus I’ll be free to help or inspire with my bonus action.

[Citan]

Hm, perhaps swashbuckler/lore might be interesting. Guess it’ll depend on what I want to do, be more spellcaster or swordsman.

If you can wait tomorrow evening I would be glad to help you design the perfect build for your charactrr concept. No time tonight have to work hard for technical demo tomorrow.
As a oneliner though if you want more sustained martial / concentration on control spells Valor is a tad better otherwise with xanathars shadow blade and booming blade you can be very good although dont know if shadow blade is finesse

[PhantomVector]

If you can wait tomorrow evening I would be glad to help you design the perfect build for your charactrr concept. No time tonight have to work hard for technical demo tomorrow.
As a oneliner though if you want more sustained martial / concentration on control spells Valor is a tad better otherwise with xanathars shadow blade and booming blade you can be very good although dont know if shadow blade is finesse

That’d be cool I might be playing dnd with my friends but I can play and post here.

I’m currently running a rogue/fighter but we kind of need a little more offensive spell casting, Druid is pulling double duty between support/healing and some blasting, since our cleric hasn’t had much time to play sadly. And we have a Witch home brew that I’m told is mostly debuff and support magic.

So we need some more offensive magic. But im also the skill monkey, trap and sneaking guy. So bard/Rogue it is lol. I’ll do all the things.

[Ali_face]

If you're going for skilled and combat oriented, Id go Bard 6 (Sword or Valor) to get the extra attack first, and pick up 2WF Style if you're going College of Swords.

You just can't beat the damage potential of that extra attack, and when you pick up Rogue it'll give you another chance to connect with sneak attack.

General rule of MC in 5E, is that you don't want to delay access to 3rd level spells and the second martial attack for too long. Getting these features in the 5/6 level range is a significant power bump. Bards don't initially have access to traditional lvl 3 combat spells like Fireball... but Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, and Stinking Cloud are powerful battlefield control/debuff spells that can wreak havoc on a mob while you dance around the battlefield

After that, focus on Rogue (swashbuckler) until you get Uncanny Dodge @lvl 11.

With Swashbuckler you get a free disengage (which will go live at level 9 for this build), so your bonus action will always be available to use w/ the 2WF style.

At that point, you should have an idea of what works in your party, the playstyle you prefer, etc. Then the question you'll need to ask yourself is do you want to focus on being a spellcaster or being a melee combatant.

This build could be played like old edition Blade Bards; highly mobile with a lot of battlefield control, and consistent single target damage.

The same build could also be accomplished with a Rogue (Swashbuckler)/ Fighter (battlemaster) w/o the spells, or a Rogue (Swashbuckler)/ Paladin if youre looking to be tankier with more Nova potential.

[Ali_face]

If youre looking for more offensive spellcasting, Bard might not be the best choice. Outside of magical secrets, most of the spells they get access to are debuff and support.

Maybe Rogue (Swashbuckler)/ Warlock (Hexblade/ Pact of the Blade) would be a better choice? Its the same Dex/ Cha (or just Cha if youre inclined) build with more offensive spell options.

Also Rogue/ Sorcerer is good for lots of offensive spells on a skilled body. With Dragon Sorcerer, you have permanent Mage Armor, but Shadow Sorcerer is the hotness right now.

[PhantomVector]

If youre looking for more offensive spellcasting, Bard might not be the best choice. Outside of magical secrets, most of the spells they get access to are debuff and support.

Maybe Rogue (Swashbuckler)/ Warlock (Hexblade/ Pact of the Blade) would be a better choice? Its the same Dex/ Cha (or just Cha if youre inclined) build with more offensive spell options.

Also Rogue/ Sorcerer is good for lots of offensive spells on a skilled body. With Dragon Sorcerer, you have permanent Mage Armor, but Shadow Sorcerer is the hotness right now.

I’ll admit my choice in bard is partly based on just wanting to play one as I haven’t had the chance to yet. And that with magical secrets I’ve heard bard is overall a top tier spellcaster. Plus I can take magic intiate for some extra damage cantrips.

I was thinking of Bard/warlock as well. Grabbing pact of the blade. But I dunno how my dm will handle patrons and I’m not sure I want that extra RP burden in a deadly difficult game.

Rogue is very appealing for its uncanny dodge, evasion, and reliable trait for staying alive and passing skill checks, as I said I’m the skills and trap, sneaky guy too. We’ve got two paladins in heavy armor and a barbarian. Except for the Druid maybe I’m the only sneaky guy lol.

[Citan]

Yeah that’s kind of my issue I got pushed a bit into being a skill monkey/trap guy/social face(sort of, we have two paladins but neither are super charismatic.)

So I’m forseeing a lot of skill checks in my future.

Personally I’d like to be more combat oriented but as the guy who’s gonna be walking around with the pole popping traps I want to be as prepared as possible.


Hm, perhaps swashbuckler/lore might be interesting. Guess it’ll depend on what I want to do, be more spellcaster or swordsman.


Yeah I typically play more damage type characters, but perhaps a mastermind/lore multiclass would be good. Or perhaps I should grab mastermind/Valor or Swords to bump up my melee ability. I like to be up front for better or worse unless I’m in a dedicated spell caster with no AC lol.

Hm. Maybe Ranged is better, and potentially safer. Plus I’ll be free to help or inspire with my bonus action.


That’d be cool I might be playing dnd with my friends but I can play and post here.

I’m currently running a rogue/fighter but we kind of need a little more offensive spell casting, Druid is pulling double duty between support/healing and some blasting, since our cleric hasn’t had much time to play sadly. And we have a Witch home brew that I’m told is mostly debuff and support magic.

So we need some more offensive magic. But im also the skill monkey, trap and sneaking guy. So bard/Rogue it is lol. I’ll do all the things.


I’ll admit my choice in bard is partly based on just wanting to play one as I haven’t had the chance to yet. And that with magical secrets I’ve heard bard is overall a top tier spellcaster. Plus I can take magic intiate for some extra damage cantrips.

I was thinking of Bard/warlock as well. Grabbing pact of the blade. But I dunno how my dm will handle patrons and I’m not sure I want that extra RP burden in a deadly difficult game.

Rogue is very appealing for its uncanny dodge, evasion, and reliable for staying alive and passing skill checks, as I said I’m the skills and trap, sneaky guy too. We’ve got two paladins in heavy armor and a barbarian. Except for the Druid maybe I’m the only sneaky guy lol.
Hey, finally I don't have any motivation to work right now (I mean, it's not like I'm gonna compress what's actually required to finish -one day of work- into 2 hours). XD

It seems you actually have a pretty good idea of what you want already.
- "Feel a Rogue": high weapon damage and mobility
- "Good, maybe great at skills"
- Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.
- "Good at magical offense".

From all that, you can already fix that you need to get "Rogue 7" before character level 10-11 at most.

Soo...
IF you have access to Xanathar's AND SCAG, for a 10th level character
Way 1: Arcane Trickster 7 / Lore Bard 3
Way 2: Arcane Trickster 5 / Shadow or Divine Sorcerer 3 (next Bard 2 if you want Jack of All Trades, otherwise one of the two classes)
Way 3: Arcane Trickster 4 / Lore Bard 6 are your target build.
Idea is simple.
- Use Booming Blade or GreenFlame Blade in mundane fights, keeping bonus action for Healing Words or Cunning Action.
- Cast Shadow Blade (which has really been made for Rogues XD) for the toughest fights.
This is costing resources, but your output will be miles beyond Valor Bard's Extra Attack.
As for whatever way to go...

"Near-Pure" AT means you get Shadow Blade the latest, but you get everything else the earliest. I'd probably my first recommendation. You could start Rogue up to 3, take 1 level of Bard for some healing, then immediately back up to Rogue 7, then "finish" Bard for 2nd level goodies (Enhance Ability being first in line) and more Expertise. Or get Bard 3 earlier because the need for skill greatness makes it a priority.

"Sorcerer" way means you get all offensive magic from Sorcerer, and you get it MUCH earlier: basically start Sorcerer 1, then Rogue 2, then Sorcerer 3, then Rogue X.
You get Constitution saves which are very important (especially for a guy that wants to concentrate, *in melee*, on a spell that provides him a good bonus action damage) and more fuel for spells early. More important, because you chose Shadow, you get extra good at avoiding death, you can Extend some spells if you'd like, and you can cast a Darkness with SP through which you can see: potential pain for your allies, but a great boost to your own offense and defense.
Although I just realized that it means you cannot sustain Shadow Blade, since both are concentration.
So in fact I'd recommend Divine Soul Sorcerer instead: that way you can still get the Healing Words party needs, as well as some other nice ones (Sanctuary, Warding Bond, Aid) and you can Extend or Twin them as needed without bothering your Shadow Blade (well, except self-Sanctuary of course ^^). ;)

"Bard" way means you are really enforcing your support role: start Rogue 1 then immediately rush to Bard 6 (maybe getting 2nd level or Rogue early if you don't mind delaying spells).
Offense-wise you will feel kinda weak at first levels because you only have basic two-weapon fighting.
On the other side, you will get better at skills earlier (Expertise + Enhance Ability) Bardic Inspiration, a load of good spells (Healing Words, Shatter, Silence, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Dissonant Whispers) which you can use for offense and utility, as well as Shadow Blade or Healing Spirits and Fireball as suggested Magic Secrets.
And since you looked at Bard because you didn't get a real chance to play it until now, this would be a golden chance to play basically a "normal" Bard with just a few enhancements (basically Cunning Action and even more Expertise).

Note that if you don't mind being stuck with low-level spells, you could build on my suggestions to make your own mix of classes. May work very well too, as long as you get Healing Words, Booming Blade, Enhance Ability and Shadow Blade one way or another.

If you don't have access to both books... I'll come back later in the week to provide another ideas. ^^

[Specter]

Since you're a new player, I'd say don't oveethink this too much. As long as you work out a progression that keeps your build interesting, any bard/rogue combo will do the job.

[Chugger]

I’m not too familiar with warlocks, hex blade?

You need 13 cha but you'd have that for bard (to MC).

Hexblade is a new subclass of lock in XgtE. It lets you use Cha for your melee stat, for plus to hit and plus to damage. It doesn't work so well for Barbs in most situations (they need str). Hexblades get spells like shield and some pal attack spell - and a special curse - and access to lock spells. Their slot recharges on a short rest.

[PhantomVector]

Since you're a new player, I'd say don't oveethink this too much. As long as you work out a progression that keeps your build interesting, any bard/rogue combo will do the job.

Well I don’t want to suck either :3. And like I mentioned before I’m filling more then a couple roles in the party, and if I change out/die into this character I’ll be filling even more by my lonesome :( So I sort of can’t afford to make too many sub optimal choices. I wanna win :3

[Specter]

Well I don’t want to suck either :3. And like I mentioned before I’m filling more then a couple roles in the party, and if I change out/die into this character I’ll be filling even more by my lonesome :( So I sort of can’t afford to make too many sub optimal choices. I wanna win :3

Alright, then here are some basic choices:

- Duelist: Swashbuckler 12/Swords Bard 8
Suggested feat: Sentinel/Mobile
Huge Sneak Attack, flourishes, Extra Attack, great skills all around, enough spells to stay out of trouble, and many defensive abilities from Rogue.

- Trickster: Lore Bard 11/Arcane Trickster 9
Suggested feat: Resilient (CON)
Good sneak attack, Booming Blade to keep your damage scaling, great spells (and higher spell slots), magical secrets and magical ambush.

[ElChad]

Alright, then here are some basic choices:

- Duelist: Swashbuckler 12/Swords Bard 8
Suggested feat: Sentinel/Mobile
Huge Sneak Attack, flourishes, Extra Attack, great skills all around, enough spells to stay out of trouble, and many defensive abilities from Rogue.


What would you recommend the leveling path to be for this? Thanks!

[Arkhios]

What would you recommend the leveling path to be for this? Thanks!

Though I'm not Specter, I'm fairly sure he would recommend the same as I am going to:

Bard 6 from the start. Extra Attack is HUGE, and you want it as soon as possible. In this case that is 6th character level, which is already one level too late, considering that barbarians, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, and even blade pact warlocks get it at 5th level. (Note, there's 7,500 XP to gather between levels 5 and 6. That's going to take a while.)

After that, it's pretty much up to you. You could take the remaining two bard levels and then turn to Rogue, or start taking rogue levels now and take the bard levels later at some point.

[Specter]

What would you recommend the leveling path to be for this? Thanks!


Though I'm not Specter, I'm fairly sure he would recommend the same as I am going to:

Bard 6 from the start. Extra Attack is HUGE, and you want it as soon as possible. In this case that is 6th character level, which is already one level too late, considering that barbarians, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, and even blade pact warlocks get it at 5th level. (Note, there's 7,500 XP to gather between levels 5 and 6. That's going to take a while.)

After that, it's pretty much up to you. You could take the remaining two bard levels and then turn to Rogue, or start taking rogue levels now and take the bard levels later at some point.

Pretty much what Arkhios said, but if you dual wield with Sneak Attack you can afford to delay Extra Attack a bit.