Is dd 5th moving to fast

[Whit]

Does anyone think that wizards is pushing subclasses , spells etc out to fast without more play testing?
Personally, I would like to see a slowdown and move towards expanding FR or dragonlance Eberon etc.

[Naanomi]

It is monumentally glacial compared to 3.X; even a bit slower than the Complete series in 2e... and more public about their playtesting process than ever. There are some products I would like to have seen by now that are not out, but overall I’m pretty satisfied at the pace and quality

[Aett_Thorn]

I'd say that the classes/races are coming out at a good pace, but the worlds section is pretty far behind.

[the_brazenburn]

I'd say that the classes/races are coming out at a good pace, but the worlds section is pretty far behind.

I definitely agree here. Personally, I'd like a few UAs to come out about things other than new subclasses.

Anything other than new subclasses.

[Waterdeep Merch]

This is the first time I think I've ever heard anyone say that 5e's putting out material too quickly. Compared to past editions it appears to be just shy of suspended animation. Compared to its primary contemporary competitor, Pathfinder, it's also unusually slow.

Though yes, I would like to see them focus a bit on releasing setting detail books outside of FR. While I can (and do) use older setting books and adjust old mechanics and creatures to fit 5e, I'd prefer to have that work done for me.

[DivisibleByZero]

I definitely agree here. Personally, I'd like a few UAs to come out about things other than new subclasses.

Anything other than new subclasses.

Any time there's a UA dealing with literally anything other than player options the masses grab their pitchforks and light their torches.

[Aett_Thorn]

Any time there's a UA dealing with literally anything other than player options the masses grab their pitchforks and light their torches.

Well, I think that it could be because many of the DM tool UAs were just bad. The alternative, clunky initiative thing; the mass combat rules; etc. The traps were interesting, and made its way into Xanathar's Guide as well.

But the new class options (Mystic and Artificer) may have had their issues, but they were fairly well received. No new subclasses =/= no new character options.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Does anyone think that wizards is pushing subclasses , spells etc out to fast without more play testing?
Personally, I would like to see a slowdown and move towards expanding FR or dragonlance Eberon etc.
Ha. Ha. Hahahahaha!

No.

They're moving preposterously slowly for a large company employing full-time writers. Heck, they're moving slowly for one amateur writing homebrew for fun nights and weekends. If I had multiple writers turning out content at this slow a rate, I'd fire them.

[KorvinStarmast]

If I had multiple writers turning out content at this slow a rate, I'd fire them.
Glad you are not in charge. :smallbiggrin: (I seem to recall that once 5e was released, about 80% of that team was let go ... but I am not sure how much meat is on the bone of that rumor). Part of what Crawford and Mearl do isn't writing, it's keeping touch with the fan base actively. I have a feeling that this is part of the 21st century marketing concept that tries to apply social media based leverage to any product line, but that's a guess.

[jas61292]

Honestly, I actually agree. There is really no need for new player options, and while they can be fun, they also have already started stepping on each others toes. I'd much rather see a greater focus on DM material and let classes and other player stuff remain as is.

[Unoriginal]

We got what, two books with new spells and two books with new player options? Since the beginning of this edition?

How is it too fast?

[KorvinStarmast]

We got what, two books with new spells and two books with new player options? Since the beginning of this edition? Honestly, I'd rather see more adventure material, and that they take their time with the Mystic (which is coming, at some point) and really work on getting it right. While I am not a big fan of psionics, there are lots of players who are. I'd like to see their desires met with a well scrubbed and well balanced (with the rest of the game) Mystic.

Oh, yeah, and Dark Sun. (Sorry, I'm like a broken record on that).

[strangebloke]

Ha. Ha. Hahahahaha!

No.

They're moving preposterously slowly for a large company employing full-time writers. Heck, they're moving slowly for one amateur writing homebrew for fun nights and weekends. If I had multiple writers turning out content at this slow a rate, I'd fire them.

Well, at least as far as splatbooks are concerned, you're right.

They've released a fair number of adventure modules though, and those things have a level of detail much from a homebrewer.

But it's just an issue of branding and quality. They could easily dump a million splats like they did in 3x, but even if everything was relatively balanced (and you know it wouldn't be) it would murder the main appeal that 5e has right now: accessibility. I'm pretty new to the DnD scene, but I vividly remember DMing in the 3x days where some player would show up with a super strange build that probably didn't work like he thought it did, pulled from a dozen different source books which neither you nor he owned. You could either read everything, be a grouchy DM from session 0 and just say "No weird splats! Play something normal!"

Meanwhile everything they've come out with has been good. Like really good. Everything's sorta balanced, there are lots of fun archetypes to try out and its all relatively intuitive. I've been very happy with each of my purchases, and I've dumped more into 5e than I ever did into 3x. That is what makes this a good strategy for them.

[Davrix]

to fas... hahahahahahahaha.... sorry, to fast....hahahahahahahahahaha oh god my sides hurt. I think I'm crying here.

Dnd 5th was launched what? 2 years ago one and a half years? and we JUST NOW got our first expansion book with new official sub classes?

Oh this post... *walks off clutching his sides, crying tears as his laughter echoes long after he is out of sight*

[DivisibleByZero]

to fas... hahahahahahahaha.... sorry, to fast....hahahahahahahahahaha oh god my sides hurt. I think I'm crying here.

Dnd 5th was launched what? 2 years ago one and a half years? and we JUST NOW got our first second expansion book with new official sub classes?

Oh this post... *walks off clutching his sides, crying tears as his laughter echoes long after he is out of sight*

Fixed it for you.

[Beechgnome]

Any time there's a UA dealing with literally anything other than player options the masses grab their pitchforks and light their torches.

I think it is just that they themselves haven't put the effort into the non-player tools. (Likely because most players are Players, not DMs).

I think the traps UA (now in Xanathar) and the recent Diabolic/Demonic cult variants that were part of the Tieflings UA were well done and well received. Because it's cool toys we (DMs) can use, right out of the box.

If UA let's me make an encounter with Slimy Juiblex cultists in a room slowly filling with green slime, Awesome! If it an alternative to a thing that works well enough like awarding experience, I have absolutely no need for that.

[Davrix]

Fixed it for you.

sword coast adventures was not an expansion book as it was 80 percent recycled players handbook rules and classes :P

[Aett_Thorn]

sword coast adventures was not an expansion book as it was 80 percent recycled players handbook rules and classes :P

Also, we got what...3 viable subclasses out of it? Arcana Cleric, Swashbuckler, and Bladesinger?

[the_brazenburn]

Also, we got what...3 viable subclasses out of it? Arcana Cleric, Swashbuckler, and Bladesinger?

And Battlerager.

[Waterdeep Merch]

And Battlerager.

Long death monk's quite good. And the subraces for half-elves, tieflings, halflings, and gnomes were all pretty great.

And while the spell section was anemic by anyone's measure, the cantrips on tap completely changed how some classes function and allowed for builds that had never existed before then. There might not have been a lot of space given to the crunchy parts of SCAG, but what was there carried a lot of weight.

[DivisibleByZero]

Also, we got what...3 viable subclasses out of it? Arcana Cleric, Swashbuckler, and Bladesinger?


And Battlerager.


Long death monk's quite good. And the subraces for half-elves, tieflings, halflings, and gnomes were all pretty great.

And while the spell section was anemic by anyone's measure, the cantrips on tap completely changed how some classes function and allowed for builds that had never existed before then. There might not have been a lot of space given to the crunchy parts of SCAG, but what was there carried a lot of weight.

So what you're all saying is that it was an expansion book with lots of player options tossed in?
Exactly.
Xan's was the second one, not the first.

[Davrix]

Long death monk's quite good. And the subraces for half-elves, tieflings, halflings, and gnomes were all pretty great.

And while the spell section was anemic by anyone's measure, the cantrips on tap completely changed how some classes function and allowed for builds that had never existed before then. There might not have been a lot of space given to the crunchy parts of SCAG, but what was there carried a lot of weight.

were there some good things in it yes? did it justify the price they tacked on it? HELLLL NO

XGTE was a proper expansion book and yes i realized some of the things included were published in other small things but well over 70 percent of the book was new content I'd say and it gave stuff to players and DM's which was very nice.

[Waterdeep Merch]

were there some good things in it yes? did it justify the price they tacked on it? HELLLL NO

XGTE was a proper expansion book and yes i realized some of the things included were published in other small things but well over 70 percent of the book was new content I'd say and it gave stuff to players and DM's which was very nice.
Oh, don't get me wrong, SCAG overall wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination. It didn't go into enough detail to really work as an FR setting guide, the player options section, while well done for its size, was paltry, and the book cost way too much considering both points.

That said, it did have a sizeable impact on players going forward. If only the entire book had been up to the quality of (most of) the player options section and it had been roughly 50% larger, it would've been a classic.

[Vaz]

Does anyone think that wizards is pushing subclasses , spells etc out to fast without more play testing?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha.

TL:DR. No.

[Davrix]

Oh, don't get me wrong, SCAG overall wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination. It didn't go into enough detail to really work as an FR setting guide, the player options section, while well done for its size, was paltry, and the book cost way too much considering both points.

That said, it did have a sizeable impact on players going forward. If only the entire book had been up to the quality of (most of) the player options section and it had been roughly 50% larger, it would've been a classic.

I guess I can agree that its kind of an expansion book but... it was so half baked, felt rushed in so many places and utterly lacking and recycled material for so much of it and then charging 60 for it when it first came out? it felt like the worst kind of half finished game you would by for a PC thats stuffed full of bloatware without real substance but in book form so I tend to refuse to acknowledge its existence because its insulting to us as players that this was presented as published content and full price.

[mephnick]

I'm fine with the pace, but I wish everything they release actually went through public play-testing. Instead they play-test some stuff then alongside it they randomly release stuff like Healing Spirit which one day of public play-testing would have fixed. I'm assuming the poor job they did of the SCAG subclasses are what triggered the public play-test of Xanathar's material, but that really should have been gone over as well.

[Jama7301]

I'm torn on public play-testing.

On one hand, everything will fall into a closer range of each other, or be tighter tuned.

On the other, a lot of the information could leak early and get spoiled, which can ruin some of the fun of a new book and the sense of discovery.

[2D8HP]

Are you asking as a DM or a player?

As a DM?

I'd say sure, it should just be the Starter set, the free on-line content, DMG, MM, and a PHB with half of the content removed, because I'm just that lazy!

As a player?

More, more, MORE!

Gimme, gimme, gimme!

I want it NOW!

DAMN IT! I SAID NOW!!!


In practice, I've liked some of the extra backgrounds and sub-classes from the Adventures, the Swashbuckler from the SCAG, the Gloom Stalker and Scout from Xanathar's look like sub-classes for me to try, and I pretty much ignore the rest.

So it's cool.

I'd like to see a 5e Dark Sun setting book (based on the 2e version), and a 5e Nentir Vale (the 4e "Points of Light") setting book most.

[GlenSmash!]

Any time there's a UA dealing with literally anything other than player options the masses grab their pitchforks and light their torches.

Stupid masses.


I guess I can agree that its kind of an expansion book but... it was so half baked, felt rushed in so many places and utterly lacking and recycled material for so much of it and then charging 60 for it when it first came out? it felt like the worst kind of half finished game you would by for a PC thats stuffed full of bloatware without real substance but in book form so I tend to refuse to acknowledge its existence because its insulting to us as players that this was presented as published content and full price.

Being a "bad' book doesn't mean it didn't exist. It seems to me like they learned from the experience before publishing their second book with more player character options.

And while I have gripes about it. I found SCAG to be a valuable resource for new players playing in FR. I can hand those players that book and say, here is some general information your character would know about lands and peoples and such, and some options that you could take for them regarding Backround and Subclass. Which is what I think it's purpose was as a Guide to players having Adventures in the Sword Coast.

The problem was it was a book that while it's useful to me and maybe some others, no one really asked for this type of book. Those that wanted a new FRCS didn't get it. XGtE is proving to me far more useful as a book of plaer options. Most Adventures contain enough setting detail to run that Adventure and perhaps some homebrew FR adventures too.

I'm mostly dislike the fact that it's artwork was not up to other 5e books.

[Theodoxus]

Do I think it comes out too fast without proper playtesting? Yeah, in some cases. Hexblade is a great example. It's ridiculously overtuned compared to other warlocks. It makes dipping for any charisma based character who wants to do any melee at all, a no brainer. But the masses wanted a gish they didn't need to think about how to properly build, so they just pushed the patron out the door sans any real QA.

A number of spells likewise didn't appear to get much QA before publishing - I don't know if it was in the hopes of not ruining the discovery or whatever, but Healing Spirit was a surprise!

Overall, I like SCAG (it's Sword Coast, not FR, so you know, it's not gonna be the FRAG like 3E had)... and I enjoy XGtE, but both books had a ton of material I don't care about and haven't really gotten around to read. As an avid player of FR since it was an official setting, I know everything in the first half of SCAG so it was meh - for me. But I'm sure it was new to a lot of players, so I'm ok with it being there.

But the back of XGtE with name tables? WTF. A google search will get you anything those tables have, and a ton more. You could get an image of a phone book from anywhere in the world if you wanted to know proper names... Reprinting Elemental Evil spells is nice from an AL standpoint - you get two books in 1! But for those of us who don't play AL, it was again essentially a waste of space (and the three AL DMs I've met are pretty loose with the whole '+1' thing when it comes to EE, since it's pretty tiny).

I'm about at the end of what I need regarding player options. Anything else can be homebrewed. It does make the game lose a little replay value as a player of specific builds. But for me, it's meeting new players and the combinations the party brings that makes it more fun... Plus the side projects of rules revision for the sake of rules revision.

[ad_hoc]

Does anyone think that wizards is pushing subclasses , spells etc out to fast without more play testing?
Personally, I would like to see a slowdown and move towards expanding FR or dragonlance Eberon etc.

I wouldn't say so yet but I think we're close to it. I hope this year's non-adventure book isn't another XgtE or SCAG. I hope the pattern is to do one every other year.

[Luccan]

In terms of official, in-print stuff? No way. Maybe with UA stuff (and that is at best a maybe), but that has also slowed significantly. As others have said, there has been more much faster in the past. There have been three additional non-adventure books since 5e came out. The adventure books don't really matter if you aren't in a group that uses them, and if you are, I figure you want them coming out at a good pace. Plenty of SCAG is unusable if you aren't playing in Faerun. So I'd say the current rate of fully published, official content is fine (and if UA makes it too overwhelming, just ban it. Nothing requires you to play with it).

[mephnick]

As others have said, there has been more much faster in the past.

Which was a mechanical mess and nearly bankrupted the brand. I know you're not, but no one should use the publishing pace of prior editions as any sort of benchmark.

[Luccan]

Which was a mechanical mess and nearly bankrupted the brand. I know you're not, but no one should use the publishing pace of prior editions as any sort of benchmark.

Actually, I am, but somewhat differently. I think the current pace is perfect. Faster and you get bloat and rules mess. Slower and some people start to lose interest.

[Tanarii]

No, they're doing just fine on player content. One general expansion doubling subclasses & adding new DM options is fine.
(I'm ignoring SCAG because it's campaign setting specific.) Player content doesn't need to expand too fast, in fact it can't under their evergreen policy. Although we'll see how long that lasts.

What I want is new DM-oriented adventuring content, especially adaptions of older material. But WoTC isn't going to provide stuff that specific too often, although obviously Tales was amazing. It just can't sell as well as new player content or new world content. Players, especially those who love their character-building pr0n, will eat that up. And 'readers' (people without enough time to play, which is many middle aged former gamers) will buy world content, even if they don't use it. But adventuring content only sells to a small subset of DMs, unless it's an entire campaign arc like they've been selling.

Which is why they set up the DM Guild. So other DMs that have worked their ass off on content can sell it to lazy bums like me who are too busy running games to make up their own stuff.


This is the first time I think I've ever heard anyone say that 5e's putting out material too quickly.

Ha. Ha. Hahahahaha!

No.

to fas... hahahahahahahaha.... sorry, to fast....hahahahahahahahahaha oh god my sides hurt. I think I'm crying here.
I'm reminded of Bender: "Oh wait, you were serious? Let me laugh harder!" :smallamused:

[2D8HP]

And 'readers' (people without enough time to play, which is many middle aged former gamers) will buy world content, even if they don't use it..
'tis true, to my certain knowledge.

[Biggstick]

I'm absolutely on board with the idea of 5th Edition expanding too far too quickly. I've played hundreds of hours of 5th Edition, with 2-4 weekly games being played ever week since November of 2014. I haven't even played half of the archetypes prior to the release of Xanathar's, and now I have enough Player content to last me another few years!

I especially think they're coming out with Player content too quickly. One of the best parts about the game was being able to hand a new Player a PHB and that's all they'd need to be on the same level as someone who'd been playing the game for a couple years. Now, there are 4 books a Player can viable pull content from, and that's a stack of books to throw in front of a new Player. They're going to get overwhelmed, and that's not what I'm looking for in trying to introduce the game to new Players.

I would like more DM content though. Things exclusively for DM's, like adventures or setting guides.

[Unoriginal]

They're going to get overwhelmed

You're really underestimating people here.

[MxKit]

One of the best parts about the game was being able to hand a new Player a PHB and that's all they'd need to be on the same level as someone who'd been playing the game for a couple years. Now, there are 4 books a Player can viable pull content from, and that's a stack of books to throw in front of a new Player. They're going to get overwhelmed, and that's not what I'm looking for in trying to introduce the game to new players.

Eh, I do think you're conflating two different things here, though. There are four books of options that a player can use, and they all have viable content, yes. But you can still hand a new player just the PHB, and they can still be on the same level as everyone else. I don't actually think even the new Ranger subclasses or the Hexblade are actually necessary for a player to not feel really behind the curve. There are several books of options, but pretty much every single option is within the same power tier, and that makes a big difference.

[HidesHisEyes]

I'd like to see more modular content for DMs. Something like the delves book from 4E, some fleshed out dungeons, adventures and settlements that can be dropped into a campaign, that kind of thing. So far the actual game content side of things has been a choice between "big, long, expensive adventure paths" and, erm, nothing.

[Tanarii]

.
'tis true, to my certain knowledge.All my gaming buddies from my college years fall into this category, as well as many geeky coworkers I have had over the years. Which is a lot of them since I work in tech. They have family and work and can't or are just unwilling to make the time to play. Lots of them read purchase gaming releases despite they'll never play just for reading it, as they can easily afford it. Meanwhile majority of my players are college-age players, and often can't afford their own PHB.


I'd like to see more modular content for DMs. Something like the delves book from 4E, some fleshed out dungeons, adventures and settlements that can be dropped into a campaign, that kind of thing. So far the actual game content side of things has been a choice between "big, long, expensive adventure paths" and, erm, nothing.
Expeditions material is pretty good if you can get your hands on it. Or DMs Guild.

[Strangways]

Any time there's a UA dealing with literally anything other than player options the masses grab their pitchforks and light their torches.

Or their tridents and Light cantrips . . .

[furby076]

Glad you are not in charge. :smallbiggrin: (I seem to recall that once 5e was released, about 80% of that team was let go ... but I am not sure how much meat is on the bone of that rumor). Part of what Crawford and Mearl do isn't writing, it's keeping touch with the fan base actively. I have a feeling that this is part of the 21st century marketing concept that tries to apply social media based leverage to any product line, but that's a guess.
For what purpose? So mearls and crawford keeping putting out press releases. That doesnt make money. Selling stuff makes money.

They are moving way too slow with content. They need to narrow their focus. Instead of monthly UA that is not tied together, they should focus on say 4 to 5 UA. Example: month 1: mystic, Month 2: artificer, Month3: ranger, etc....then month 6 comes around and they repeat the cycle for the same first 5 months, refining the work. The idea is they publish month 1 (mystic) after a few iterations.

They definitely need more world building. Heck, thats just upgrading old story elements to 5e. Bring out dragonlance, darksun, spelljammer, etc. Then bringnout complete spells, magic items, etc. Xanathars is great. I think 2 to 3 non world specific releases per year, and 2 to 3 world releases (and supplement world releases) is good too. The name of the game for a company is to sell stuff. Hopefully quality stuff

[furby076]

Well, at least as far as splatbooks are concerned, you're right.

They've released a fair number of adventure modules though, and those things have a level of detail much from a homebrewer.

But it's just an issue of branding and quality. They could easily dump a million splats like they did in 3x, but even if everything was relatively balanced (and you know it wouldn't be) it would murder the main appeal that 5e has right now: accessibility. I'm pretty new to the DnD scene, but I vividly remember DMing in the 3x days where some player would show up with a super strange build that probably didn't work like he thought it did, pulled from a dozen different source books which neither you nor he owned. You could either read everything, be a grouchy DM from session 0 and just say "No weird splats! Play something normal!"

Meanwhile everything they've come out with has been good. Like really good. Everything's sorta balanced, there are lots of fun archetypes to try out and its all relatively intuitive. I've been very happy with each of my purchases, and I've dumped more into 5e than I ever did into 3x. That is what makes this a good strategy for them.

But here is the thing. Many folks want options. Player and dm can figure out what is allowed. People make it sound like everytime a player wants something, and a DM says no, then its an OMFG WW3 ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE scenario. In all my years, ive never seen anyone get bent when a dm said "no". Disappointed, sure....but they made something else. Do players out there get bent? Sure, but thats not a reason to deny joy to other players and dms who ARE reasonable,


Given that. I want quality. The pace needs to pick up.

Heck...they could make a harpers book. Id love it :)

[ad_hoc]

I'm absolutely on board with the idea of 5th Edition expanding too far too quickly. I've played hundreds of hours of 5th Edition, with 2-4 weekly games being played ever week since November of 2014. I haven't even played half of the archetypes prior to the release of Xanathar's, and now I have enough Player content to last me another few years!

I especially think they're coming out with Player content too quickly. One of the best parts about the game was being able to hand a new Player a PHB and that's all they'd need to be on the same level as someone who'd been playing the game for a couple years. Now, there are 4 books a Player can viable pull content from, and that's a stack of books to throw in front of a new Player. They're going to get overwhelmed, and that's not what I'm looking for in trying to introduce the game to new Players.

I would like more DM content though. Things exclusively for DM's, like adventures or setting guides.

I think it's more about entire new groups coming to the game.

The Starter Set is an easy sell.

Core books plus adventure books make sense.

Put too many options books out there though and people will be turned off.

The 5e core books are still selling very well. A lot of new players are coming to the game, and with a movie set to come out in a couple years I don't think that will slow down.

[Regitnui]

Heck...they could make a harpers book. Id love it :)

Have the previous setting books gone anywhere? No? Great, them we don't need more FR-specific stuff.

I'm not grouch, but I'd much rather see the game spread out to its different settings, kept as separate worlds rather than Mearls' half-baked "genres" idea (he is not stuffing Dark Sun and Eberron into FR. I won't stand for it.). I'd like to see a few more settings released this year, opening up DMs Guild for those creators and homebrewers who would love to build for those settings, instead of Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft.

[TrinculoLives]

Dnd 5th was launched what? 2 years ago one and a half years? and we JUST NOW got our first expansion book with new official sub classes?
The free Basic Rules PDF was released on July 3rd, the Starter Kit July 15th, and the PHB August 19th, of 2014. It's currently January 2018, so the game is almost 3 and a half years old.

[XmonkTad]

Actually, I am, but somewhat differently. I think the current pace is perfect. Faster and you get bloat and rules mess. Slower and some people start to lose interest.

My thoughts exactly. I feel like the pace is pretty much perfect. I wish they had re-printed the EE races in XGtE, like they did with the spells. I like the pace because as long as the +1 rule is going to stick around each book should feel super impactful and enabling.
Trying to keep up with 3.5 was difficult. My favorite time with that edition was after 4e came out and we could pour over the books and look at the series as a whole.

[GlenSmash!]

Put too many options books out there though and people will be turned off.

I was in this situation. For years I wanted to get into D&D, but found the amount of classes, options, and books to be overwhelming so while I read some stuff on forums, I never played.

When 5e was announced it was easy. I read the Basic rules, bought the Starter Set, and got friends together to play. Later I bought the PHB, then more adventures.

[Sigreid]

I think it's at a good pace. Plenty of time to assimilate and use the new data and a pace that makes it fairly easy to keep up on purchases.

[baticeer]

“If there are too many options, people will be put off” doesn’t make sense to me as an argument when Pathfinder is still out there being one of the most popular rpg systems (as far as I’m aware). Some people will be put off by a lack of options, too. I think they should keep putting out things at the same pace until we at least have enough player options to cover the major character archetypes that aren’t yet supported. Things like alchemist/artificer, a Warlord type martial character, a witch class, an unarmed fighting character that isn’t a monk... et cetera

[KorvinStarmast]

Given that. I want quality. The pace needs to pick up.
I am far more interested in quality, the pace can be slow as long as quality standards are kept up.

[GlenSmash!]

“If there are too many options, people will be put off” doesn’t make sense to me as an argument when Pathfinder is still out there being one of the most popular rpg systems (as far as I’m aware). Some people will be put off by a lack of options, too. I think they should keep putting out things at the same pace until we at least have enough player options to cover the major character archetypes that aren’t yet supported. Things like alchemist/artificer, a Warlord type martial character, a witch class, an unarmed fighting character that isn’t a monk... et cetera

People who are already in the hobby might be put of by a lack of options, but new people to the hobby won't even know there are fewer options, but could be put off my a plethora of them.

I was.

So do you think more brand new RPG players are getting into Pathfinder right now or 5e?

[strangebloke]

“If there are too many options, people will be put off” doesn’t make sense to me as an argument when Pathfinder is still out there being one of the most popular rpg systems (as far as I’m aware). Some people will be put off by a lack of options, too. I think they should keep putting out things at the same pace until we at least have enough player options to cover the major character archetypes that aren’t yet supported. Things like alchemist/artificer, a Warlord type martial character, a witch class, an unarmed fighting character that isn’t a monk... et cetera

Every release they make adds something to keep the old players in the game.

Every release they make adds a higher cost to entry for new players.

Clearly, once you reach a certain point, new players will stop showing up to play your game. At that point your game is basically dead. So by controlling your release schedule you extend the life of your game. Pathfinder is 8-9 years old, but at least anecdotally, it's losing a lot of new players to 5e. I've talked to a large number of people who wanted to play dnd and started in Pathfinder but then "Heard about 5e." and jumped ship. When compared with 3e, Pathfinder had a much more conservative release schedule, but even then, they're starting to burn out.

5e's schedule ensures they'll be around for a looong time. That's good news for my wallet in more ways than one.

[baticeer]

People who are already in the hobby might be put of by a lack of options, but new people to the hobby won't even know there are fewer options, but could be put off my a plethora of them.

I was.

So do you think more brand new RPG players are getting into Pathfinder right now or 5e?

Let me be clear, I think my post may have been badly worded. I’m not saying that having a ton of options is a net good thing, or even that “many options” appeals to MORE people than “few options”. I’m just saying that there are SOME people for whom a great deal of options flexibility is a plus.

People new to the hobby could certainly find a lack of options offputting, like:
DM: “What kind of character do you want to be?”
New Player: “Can I make a guy who summons a spirit companion?”
DM: “Well, that’s not really in the rules for 5E, although there are rules for that in Pathfinder and 4E...”

Does that make sense? I’m not arguing for an increase in the pace of 5e’s publishing, at all, just saying that I think “more options = bad” is more of a personal taste thing than some people treat it as. I don’t even play Pathfinder, but I primarily hear “there are lots of options which lets you create almost any character type you can imagine” cited as one of the positives of the system.

[GlenSmash!]

Let me be clear, I think my post may have been badly worded. I’m not saying that having a ton of options is a net good thing, or even that “many options” appeals to MORE people than “few options”. I’m just saying that there are SOME people for whom a great deal of options flexibility is a plus.

People new to the hobby could certainly find a lack of options offputting, like:
DM: “What kind of character do you want to be?”
New Player: “Can I make a guy who summons a spirit companion?”
DM: “Well, that’s not really in the rules for 5E, although there are rules for that in Pathfinder and 4E...”

Does that make sense? I’m not arguing for an increase in the pace of 5e’s publishing, at all, just saying that I think “more options = bad” is more of a personal taste thing than some people treat it as. I don’t even play Pathfinder, but I primarily hear “there are lots of options which lets you create almost any character type you can imagine” cited as one of the positives of the system.

I see your point now. Thanks for clarifying.

[Tanarii]

For what purpose? So mearls and crawford keeping putting out press releases. That doesnt make money. Selling stuff makes money.If you can't make the connection between Social Media marketing and selling stuff, don't ever go into marketing.

Furthermore, given the apparent marketing strategy of expanding the player base, a strong social media presence is one of the best tools WotC can use.

Also in line with that strategy, putting new content out isn't the only way to sell stuff. In fact, it can actively hurt selling stuff, if the primary goal is expanding the player base and selling more of the core stuff. Putting out too much content is a known factor in making it harder to bring entirely new players into a game.

Edit: Also keep in mind D&D is an ever "expanding" player market. Or rather, it's super-high turn-over. Players constantly leave the player-base as they leave college and start working and raising kids. New players are constantly entering the market, typically during high school or college.

[GlenSmash!]

If you can't make the connection between Social Media marketing and selling stuff, don't ever go into marketing.

Furthermore, given the apparent marketing strategy of expanding the player base, a strong social media presence is one of the best tools WotC can use.

Also in line with that strategy, putting new content out isn't the only way to sell stuff. In fact, it can actively hurt selling stuff, if the primary goal is expanding the player base and selling more of the core stuff. Putting out too much content is a known factor in making it harder to bring entirely new players into a game.

Edit: Also keep in mind D&D is an ever "expanding" player market. Or rather, it's super-high turn-over. Players constantly leave the player-base as they leave college and start working and raising kids. New players are constantly entering the market, typically during high school or college.

Seriously. When have you seen an add for D&D on TV, Hulu, YouTube or even a webpage you visit. This is a game that is spread by Word of Mouth and in this day and age Word of Mouth is Social Media.

To sell more products they tweet, hoping that those tweets will be retweeted by people who want to get their friends into the game. Or retweeted by the twitter page for the shows people watch like Stranger Things or Critical Role.

[Whit]

Things I don’t want to see
1. Rushed anything. Sub classes spells etc
2. I’ll die if I see the complete guide to each class book all classes and sub classes in it
3. To many sub classes that are scattered as well

What I would like to see
Limited number of books with all the content
Give us time to play all the sub classes before sending out more.
Get feedback in those classes like next
More world content

[bc56]

Let's put it this way. I don't want more player options, because I don't want to have to buy a billion sourcebooks just to keep up with the possible options that my players could choose. (Option bloat)

However, more DM tools, especially like what is in Volo's, info about monsters or races and their place in the world, is really useful to me, and I want more of that, especially for dragons and fiends.
(Volo's is my favorite sourcebook)

[Celcey]

As I've never played any other edition, I have nothing to compare it to, so I'd actually say yes. Mainly because one of the best things about 5e is how heavily play tested it is. I know a lot of this stuff is UA, so there's whatever testing and surveys they get from that, but I don't want 5e to lose that balance.

That being said, I don't actually mind the timeline, just the lack of playtesting. I do mind the lack of settings though, because even though I've never played them, I do know a good bit around them. Ebberon particularly is a setting I'd like to play around with, because I like magic heavy worlds but don't always have time to do all the world building that entails. Or figure out how to work it in an economy based on goats.

[Regitnui]

We don't need player options. Well, the artificer and the psionics class, and then the other concepts can be shelved under the various core classes as subclass options (summoner on the druid chassis, example). What we do need are wider worlds. Forgotten Realms lends itself to a narrower kind of adventure than what D&D is capable of. Ravenloft is even more limited. Opening up the various settings D&D has created over the years would widen the player base and DM Options dramatically.

Eberron has expanded vehicles, magic item economy, more aberrations and positive energy undead.

Dark Sun has thri-keen, defiling and preserving magic, survival mechanics and many monstrous beasts.

Spelljammer opens up "space" travel, interplanetary shenanigans, miniature giant space hamsters and all sorts of strange things.

Planescape is just all sorts of strange and wild. It should be among the last released, because it links a lot of the settings.

[furby076]

Have the previous setting books gone anywhere? No? Great, them we don't need more FR-specific stuff.

I'm not grouch, but I'd much rather see the game spread out to its different settings, kept as separate worlds rather than Mearls' half-baked "genres" idea (he is not stuffing Dark Sun and Eberron into FR. I won't stand for it.). I'd like to see a few more settings released this year, opening up DMs Guild for those creators and homebrewers who would love to build for those settings, instead of Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft.

Sound like a grinch to me :) they need to update the old content. Also, why r u getting bent, in my last sentence, that just gave my preference for something you dont like? Why woild DS and eberron go to into FR? Dude, chill a bit. And i love DS and eberron. I played in 10 year eberron campaign

[furby076]

If you can't make the connection between Social Media marketing and selling stuff, don't ever go into marketing.

Furthermore, given the apparent marketing strategy of expanding the player base, a strong social media presence is one of the best tools WotC can use.

Also in line with that strategy, putting new content out isn't the only way to sell stuff. In fact, it can actively hurt selling stuff, if the primary goal is expanding the player base and selling more of the core stuff. Putting out too much content is a known factor in making it harder to bring entirely new players into a game.

Edit: Also keep in mind D&D is an ever "expanding" player market. Or rather, it's super-high turn-over. Players constantly leave the player-base as they leave college and start working and raising kids. New players are constantly entering the market, typically during high school or college.

Nah. You need to produce more stuff so your existing base will buy more. Would you rather sell the same books to 5000 new players per year, or sell those same 5000 books plus sell 50k books to your existing players (making up numbers). As a company 55k books is way better than 5k. So, marketing, with no product = unpaid youtuber

[Tanarii]

So far from all reports, in this day and age their marketing strategy is paying off in spades. The proof is in the pudding.

[ad_hoc]

“If there are too many options, people will be put off” doesn’t make sense to me as an argument when Pathfinder is still out there being one of the most popular rpg systems (as far as I’m aware).

Even though Pathfinder is currently the 2nd most popular RPG, it is nowhere close to 5e.

5e is the most popular RPG ever.

The highest the Pathfinder Core Rulebook got on Amazon was #678. The highest the 5e PHB got was #1.

There are over 10 million people actively playing 5e and it had its best sales month in Nov. 2017. It is gaining momentum and there is a movie slated for 2021. The worst thing WotC can do is flood the game with books and both scare away new players and shorten the live span of the edition.

[ad_hoc]

Nah. You need to produce more stuff so your existing base will buy more. Would you rather sell the same books to 5000 new players per year, or sell those same 5000 books plus sell 50k books to your existing players (making up numbers). As a company 55k books is way better than 5k. So, marketing, with no product = unpaid youtuber

This isn't true. The 5e PHB is doing better than ever.

https://i.imgur.com/dOBwVzW.png

[Regitnui]

Sound like a grinch to me :) they need to update the old content. Also, why r u getting bent, in my last sentence, that just gave my preference for something you dont like? Why woild DS and eberron go to into FR? Dude, chill a bit. And i love DS and eberron. I played in 10 year eberron campaign

I am worried that Mike Mearls, the Uncreative Director, may try to make Dark Sun and Eberron "fit into AL". Which is to say, a continuous string of adventures. It's a solid possibility that we will not get any setting book unless you can get there in FR, like Ravenloft was only released after CoS, which begins and ends with being in the Forgotten Realms.

How does MM or WotC move people to Eberron, Dark Sun or any other wildly different to FR setting without calling an end to adventure league's continuous story? Any method I can think of goes against established lore in both other settings. I have heard that Keith Baker is working with WotC this year. Maybe he'll keep Eberron's setting integrity intact if we do end up there this year in a book or adventure.

For the uninitiated, Eberron is on a completely different planar system to The Great Wheel, with no evidence of gods, and Dark Sun was intentionally cut off from the greater multiverse for being just that dangerous. Wholesale moving of 5e's established flavour as is, with no adaption, to either would be horrible.

[strangebloke]

If you're GE, you're selling appliances to everyone, the only question is: how can you get more money out of everyone? So they make as many appliances as they can and intentionally design them to break after a few years.

If you're wotc, you can either pump a small group for money (which 3e and Pathfinder did) or you can broaden your horizons. Get the youths in, make it accessible.

[ad_hoc]

For the uninitiated, Eberron is on a completely different planar system to The Great Wheel, with no evidence of gods, and Dark Sun was intentionally cut off from the greater multiverse for being just that dangerous. Wholesale moving of 5e's established flavour to either would be horrible.

Ravenloft exists in the Deep Ethereal, also cut off from the gods. The only gods to your pleas are The Dark Powers (and possibly Ezra).

Yet, there was an Adventure Path set in Ravenloft.

Ideally I'd like an adventure book with 32 pages or so on the setting.

[Luccan]

Ravenloft exists in the Deep Ethereal, also cut off from the gods. The only gods to your pleas are The Dark Powers (and possibly Ezra).

Yet, there was an Adventure Path set in Ravenloft.

Ideally I'd like an adventure book with 32 pages or so on the setting.

Ravenloft specifically pulls in people from outside, does it not? Eberron and Athal Athas (that's the planet in Dark Sun, right?) are both cut off from other D&D worlds, in order to prevent cross-over and distilling what makes those settings unique. Ravenloft does this by chewing up everyone who enters and (occasionally) spitting them back out. Yes, one canon adventure took place there, but that's it. And not much in Ravenloft tends to work differently from the more "generic" D&D worlds, AFAIK. It's just harsher there. Eberron, meanwhile, is a magi-tech world with hundreds of mystic inventions that would change the face of FR, while in Dark Sun, magic doesn't even work the same way. If they attempt to homogenize the settings with AL, it could rip out everything that makes them unique in the name of consistency.

Edit: Which is not to say you couldn't write adventures for them, but it wouldn't make as much money if it needed to be separated from AL. Though I could see some fun from parallel AL, EAL, and DSAL games, it would probably split the market instead, as players would likely choose a world they wanted to play in and there's only so many adventures being put out. Someone's games would suffer, and it would probably be Dark Sun first, then Eberron, to go.

[ad_hoc]

Edit: Which is not to say you couldn't write adventures for them, but it wouldn't make as much money if it needed to be separated from AL. Though I could see some fun from parallel AL, EAL, and DSAL games, it would probably split the market instead, as players would likely choose a world they wanted to play in and there's only so many adventures being put out. Someone's games would suffer, and it would probably be Dark Sun first, then Eberron, to go.

Do you think AL makes them a lot of money?

Does anyone (publicly) have the numbers on that?

[Luccan]

Do you think AL makes them a lot of money?

Does anyone (publicly) have the numbers on that?

I think it contributes significantly enough. Having a standardized series of continuous adventures players can drop in and out of makes the game more approachable for newcomers. Having three separate adventure series would not be nearly as approachable, if you want to keep the settings unique. Again, Athas just has different rules for magic, both it and Eberron have races not found in Faerun, and Eberron has items that don't keep with Faerun's maintained middle ages setting.

So their options, as far as I can tell, are:

A: Homogenize settings. Annoy fans of those settings and possibly not do enough different to spark interest in those settings from newcomers.

B: Release two (at least, if they only use one other setting) different AL adventure paths. This splits AL players and means newcomers don't necessarily know what rules they're playing with. I'd hate to find out I could've been a living suit of armor, but didn't get to be because human fighter works in all potential settings so that's what I rolled up.

C: Release a setting book for different settings. Maybe each includes one adventure, but it isn't AL. You'd have to clearly mark what in these books is AL legal, of course.

I favor C, though I'd like B if I thought it wouldn't harm sales (and thus is unlikely to be chosen anyway). B and C do the most damage, either having too many separate paths for newcomers or releasing a book that isn't as useful to AL. Oh, or they could do

D:No official setting material outside Faerun and occasional incursions into other worlds

[Naanomi]

Athal (that's the planet in Dark Sun, right?) are both cut off from other D&D worlds, in order to prevent cross-over and distilling what makes those settings unique.
Athas actually, and not fully cut off like Ebberon appears to be. Darksun had an adventure path involving an old crashed Gith ship, which connects it to Spelljammer (and thus everytnging else)... Darksun NPCs were also occasionally found in other settings (one of the Planescape Factols was a Darksun Elemental Cleric; and Baldur’s Gate has Athasian Halflings in the planar sphere)

Eberron is almost definitively a separate Cosmology which makes it... not impossible to get to from The Great Wheel, but as challenging as it is possible to be

[Luccan]

Athas actually, and not fully cut off like Ebberon appears to be. Darksun had an adventure path involving an old crashed Gith ship, which connects it to Spelljammer (and thus everytnging else)... Darksun NPCs were also occasionally found in other settings (one of the Planescape Factols was a Darksun Elemental Cleric; and Baldur’s Gate has Athasian Halflings in the planar sphere)

Eberron is almost definitively a separate Cosmology which makes it... not impossible to get to from The Great Wheel, but as challenging as it is possible to be

Ah, dang, I'll edit that.

Also, I thought their Sphere was cut-off. Go figure.

Doesn't necessarily change the fact that Dark Sun is fairly different beast from more traditional FR, though, which is the main thing. Though I hope they do Planescape before potentially crossing the two over, in that case. Or if they do put out Dark Sun first, Planescapse could be advertised partially as a chance to cross the two over.

[Naanomi]

Even though it is in the Great Wheel, it is still relatively isolated... not on the Greater Arcane Flow (so hard to get to Spelljamming); has a sort of hostile Demi-Plane surrounding it that prevents all contact through the Astral/Outer Planes; and the Deep Ethereal only reachable through small unstable elemental gates. Athasian dead also don’t make it to the afterlife (they are ground up to oblivion in the Grey)

[Luccan]

Even though it is in the Great Wheel, it is still relatively isolated... not on the Greater Arcane Flow (so hard to get to Spelljamming); has a sort of hostile Demi-Plane surrounding it that prevents all contact through the Astral/Outer Planes; and the Deep Ethereal only reachable through small unstable elemental gates. Athasian dead also don’t make it to the afterlife (they are ground up to oblivion in the Grey)

This inspired an idea for a game in my head. Some semi-benevolent magical power deciding "screw it, our world is dying anyway. I'm using up everything we have left to shunt us all through the gates". Essentially displacing the entire population of Athas into a different part of the Great Wheel. The players are among the people that have to deal with their tough, territorial, sometimes cannibalistic new neighbors and the potential alliances that form between groups simply because they're all Athasians. Athas vs. whichever part of the Great Wheel, basically. Could be fun.

I realize there's probably a lot of reasons that wouldn't work, but it could be cool.

[Ignimortis]

How is 4 splatbooks in 3 years "fast"? That's not "fast" by any tabletop's standards. UA is basically playtesting outsourced to players, and most of it gets into the next splatbook with some changes. We've had two classes added since 2014, and even then they're in dire need of revision, being a beta version of a proper class. So, no. 5e is moving too slow.
The thing is, content isn't exhausted when the players have tried everything. It's exhausted when players have tried everything they wanted to. And that's a much narrower range, which needs much more effort to expand.

[ad_hoc]

I think it contributes significantly enough.

Does it though? I'd like to see some numbers.


Having a standardized series of continuous adventures players can drop in and out of makes the game more approachable for newcomers. Having three separate adventure series would not be nearly as approachable, if you want to keep the settings unique.

While I haven't played AL, I don't think characters would be able to jump in and out of Ravenloft. That's the main thing, the characters are trapped.

I can see the value of AL from a marketing standpoint. I doubt that it would be highly affected by having characters contained to one storyline. They operate in seasons right based on whatever the newest book is? I think the greater importance to WotC would be how popular the adventure is in general.

I think the biggest factor against another setting is that it will muddy the waters about is to the public. FR is a general fantasy setting. They tested the waters with Ravenloft, a horror fantasy setting. I could see them doing one FR and one other adventure book in a year, but not 2.

The biggest factor in favour of an adventure in another setting would be for something fresh. They have a release schedule of 2 big adventure books per year.

[Luccan]

Does it though? I'd like to see some numbers.



While I haven't played AL, I don't think characters would be able to jump in and out of Ravenloft. That's the main thing, the characters are trapped.

I can see the value of AL from a marketing standpoint. I doubt that it would be highly affected by having characters contained to one storyline. They operate in seasons right based on whatever the newest book is? I think the greater importance to WotC would be how popular the adventure is in general.

I think the biggest factor against another setting is that it will muddy the waters about is to the public. FR is a general fantasy setting. They tested the waters with Ravenloft, a horror fantasy setting. I could see them doing one FR and one other adventure book in a year, but not 2.

The biggest factor in favour of an adventure in another setting would be for something fresh. They have a release schedule of 2 big adventure books per year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, that adventure ends with leaving Ravenloft, does it not? Because it's tied in with all the FR stuff. And because Ravenloft can do that, unlike some other settings. Getting caught in Ravenloft is actually the easy part and I assume in AL games if a player just doesn't show up, well, you have to keep going without them.

I suppose you're right though, they may decide to test things with a big adventure book not set in FR this year. That'd be nice, I'd be interested in playing it were that the case.

[Regitnui]

Eberron is almost definitively a separate Cosmology which makes it... not impossible to get to from The Great Wheel, but as challenging as it is possible to be

I actually brought this up with Keith Baker, and his most accepting idea when it came to FR characters ending up on Eberron was "They don't". By any method. The eventual answer was that the will of the three creator Primordial Dragons keeps Eberron separate from other deities and planar interference.


Even though it is in the Great Wheel, it is still relatively isolated... not on the Greater Arcane Flow (so hard to get to Spelljamming); has a sort of hostile Demi-Plane surrounding it that prevents all contact through the Astral/Outer Planes; and the Deep Ethereal only reachable through small unstable elemental gates. Athasian dead also don’t make it to the afterlife (they are ground up to oblivion in the Grey)

And Eberron was never included in those 2e "everything is linked" settings by virtue of not being created yet.

[ad_hoc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, that adventure ends with leaving Ravenloft, does it not? Because it's tied in with all the FR stuff. And because Ravenloft can do that, unlike some other settings. Getting caught in Ravenloft is actually the easy part and I assume in AL games if a player just doesn't show up, well, you have to keep going without them.

I suppose you're right though, they may decide to test things with a big adventure book not set in FR this year. That'd be nice, I'd be interested in playing it were that the case.

The game also ends at around 10th level.

Are high level games common in AL?

Also, once a player has played a character to 10th level are they still a new player? I think AL has done its job at that point.

[Naanomi]

I actually brought this up with Keith Baker, and his most accepting idea when it came to FR characters ending up on Eberron was "They don't". By any method. The eventual answer was that the will of the three creator Primordial Dragons keeps Eberron separate from other deities and planar interference.

And Eberron was never included in those 2e "everything is linked" settings by virtue of not being created yet.
A part of the Greater setting is that alternate Cosmologies away from the Great Wheel are all reachable through rare gateways and travel through the Deep Shadow Plane... our Earth, Eberron, Middle Earth, the MCU... all possible places of existence.

So Eberron may say no contact possible, but DnD says it is possible (though possibly only technically so)

[Unoriginal]

Mike Mearls went on record, in an unofficial Q&A, saying that Eberron did exist in the 5e Material Plane, but in it's own crystal sphere (the spheres holding each world of the Material) way distant from the others, and noted it was incredibly difficult to reach. Each crystal sphere having different relationships with the planes and the background magic field.

Honestly, Mearls Bashing is really starting to piss me off. The guy isn't the best at consistancy or mechanics, but he doesn't deserve all that ****.

[DivisibleByZero]

Correct me if I'm wrong, that adventure ends with leaving Ravenloft, does it not? Because it's tied in with all the FR stuff. And because Ravenloft can do that, unlike some other settings.

The adventure does not technically end that way.

If Strahd is killed in his coffin, the Mists part and people can leave Barovia of their own free will. Barovia does not leave Ravenloft. So people can travel to other Domains within Ravenloft, but cannot leave it.
Then again, that requires knowledge of Ravenloft outside of the 5e adventure (meaning prior knowledge), and DM Fiat is a thing.
It even says that Strahd's defeat is temporary due to his curse, and that this is but a small reprieve before Strahd and the Mists eventually return.

The Waffle Crew DnD Vodcast ended that way, by virtue of DM Fiat.

[Naanomi]

Mike Mearls went on record, in an unofficial Q&A, saying that Eberron did exist in the 5e Material Plane, but in it's own crystal sphere (the spheres holding each world of the Material) way distant from the others, and noted it was incredibly difficult to reach. Each crystal sphere having different relationships with the planes and the background magic field.
You can make that work pretty easy, yes. Much like Athas is surrounded by the Grey that interferes with Planar Travel; Eberron could have a similar blockage, one that is breached by allowing extra-Planar energies to filter through the ‘orbiting Demi-Planes’ (akin to Athas’ elemental Gates).

Relatively unique, but not outside of what the Great Wheel can handle

[Regitnui]

You can make that work pretty easy, yes. Much like Athas is surrounded by the Grey that interferes with Planar Travel; Eberron could have a similar blockage, one that is breached by allowing extra-Planar energies to filter through the ‘orbiting Demi-Planes’ (akin to Athas’ elemental Gates).

Relatively unique, but not outside of what the Great Wheel can handle

What I came up with was the Primordial Dragons intentionally blocking off planar travelers but for Syrania, the plane of Peace and Air. It's nigh-impossible to start a fight there intentionally, but the plane is also inhabited by solars, just in case. From Eberron, you can reach Syrania, but not any further into the crystal spheres. Sort of a two-layer shield from the meddling beings of outside worlds.

[Tanarii]

Do you think AL makes them a lot of money?

Does anyone (publicly) have the numbers on that?
No numbers, but anecdotally, you have to see what AL is like to believe it in gaming stores near colleges in major US cities. Which is where the most successful ones try to locate themselves. It's huge, and it must bring WoTC tons of money from the "brand new players" market.

If you want new players, game stores near colleges are the easiest way to find them. Even in the Internet era.

[opaopajr]

I'm rather burnt out on player options, and very tired waiting for new settings and setting-based gear ideas. Also those large hardcover campaigns... I'd rather some variety with smaller adventures, in the 20 pages or less variety.

Y'know, I'd totally be down if they did a cross-promo of D&D comics with small adventures. Maybe like a quarterly or bi-monthly thing. Something like a $4-$5 comic-format adventure, perhaps a top selling D&D DMs Guild adventure, getting a pulp print with some cool art added. Later, if they're popular enough, you could do a compilation like Tales of the Yawning Portal or something. It'd be cooler if there's decent pull outs, like mini-maps or adventure handouts inside, which can just be ripped out and ready to play.

However the collector's market might ruin everything... And new art can be expensive. Yet I can readily see fan-creators on D&D DMs Guild losing their minds that they got their adventure published and illustrated as a comic. :smallcool:

[the_brazenburn]

I'm rather burnt out on player options, and very tired waiting for new settings and setting-based gear ideas. Also those large hardcover campaigns... I'd rather some variety with smaller adventures, in the 20 pages or less variety.

Y'know, I'd totally be down if they did a cross-promo of D&D comics with small adventures. Maybe like a quarterly or bi-monthly thing. Something like a $4-$5 comic-format adventure, perhaps a top selling D&D DMs Guild adventure, getting a pulp print with some cool art added. Later, if they're popular enough, you could do a compilation like Tales of the Yawning Portal or something. It'd be cooler if there's decent pull outs, like mini-maps or adventure handouts inside, which can just be ripped out and ready to play.

However the collector's market might ruin everything... And new art can be expensive. Yet I can readily see fan-creators on D&D DMs Guild losing their minds that they got their adventure published and illustrated as a comic. :smallcool:

Something like the OD&D Dragon magazines, then?

I can see that.

[strangebloke]

I'm rather burnt out on player options, and very tired waiting for new settings and setting-based gear ideas.

....How? We just got over twenty new subclasses, and the vast majority of them are good. There's very few mechanical niches that haven't been explored yet. (fist-fighter who isn't a monk, grappler... And there's tons of good homebrew and homebrewed settings.

I mean I've played like 3? 4? campaigns since release counting campaigns that aborted before session 3. That's like 5 or six characters I've played, which isn't half of the base classes.

[Tanarii]

....How? We just got over twenty new subclasses, and the vast majority of them are good. There's very few mechanical niches that haven't been explored yet. (fist-fighter who isn't a monk, grappler... And there's tons of good homebrew and homebrewed settings.

I mean I've played like 3? 4? campaigns since release counting campaigns that aborted before session 3. That's like 5 or six characters I've played, which isn't half of the base classes.
Didn't you know? A Half-Orc Berserker Barbarian Soldier is pretty much the same thing as a High Elf EK Fighter Sage. They both hit things with a two handed weapon

[Luccan]

Though I still think the pace is fine, someone pointed out it's easier to burn out on what you want to play. In my case, for instance, I could play all the subclasses, but that doesn't mean I want to be an Inquisitive Rogue. Now, in reality, I'm not burned out, but there are definitely options I don't care for. Of course, if you use multiclassing rules, I imagine that increases your options a fair amount, so in that case it's a bit hard to think of how you could already be done, especially given we just got a ton of new material to play with.

[Ignimortis]

....How? We just got over twenty new subclasses, and the vast majority of them are good. There's very few mechanical niches that haven't been explored yet. (fist-fighter who isn't a monk, grappler... And there's tons of good homebrew and homebrewed settings.

I mean I've played like 3? 4? campaigns since release counting campaigns that aborted before session 3. That's like 5 or six characters I've played, which isn't half of the base classes.


Didn't you know? A Half-Orc Berserker Barbarian Soldier is pretty much the same thing as a High Elf EK Fighter Sage. They both hit things with a two handed weapon

It doesn't mean all of those options seem attractive to all the players. Personally, I don't even care about half the base classes. Barbarian is pigeonholed into his own stereotype, which holds no interest to me. Bard, Cleric, Druid - not interested at all. Fighter - I'm playing a Battlemaster currently, every other archetype is a downgrade for me (less options), thus I don't want to play any more Fighters. I have some passing interest in Shadow Monks and Paladins, I've played a Hunter Ranger. Rogue might be some fun with Arcane Trickster, Sorcerer was a disappointment, Warlock is only good because of Hexblade which I'm mixing with Battlemaster, and I dislike Wizards.

There. I've played three/four base classes, I've some small interest in two specific subclasses and another base class. If I were to play shorter games, which would be over in, say, half a year, I probably would've played everything I even remotely like by now, and my group might've gone through all the classes and most archetypes at least once. Therefore, I can understand perfectly when people say "there's nothing left to play".

[Scripten]

It doesn't mean all of those options seem attractive to all the players. Personally, I don't even care about half the base classes.

-snip-

Therefore, I can understand perfectly when people say "there's nothing left to play".

Not that there's anything wrong with it, but this is such a strange perspective for me. Maybe it's because I'm usually a DM, but I have run at least eight or nine characters through various one-shots and short campaigns and I've never felt like I'm running out of options or interesting roleplaying experiences. Even just among martials you can end up with vastly different characters by picking different ability score layouts, backgrounds, and skill focus.

[Tanarii]

Therefore, I can understand perfectly when people say "there's nothing left to play".
Sounds to me like what's actually being said is: I've played everything I'm interested in playing in D&D 5e. Which is a completely fair but not matching statement. And certainly from that perspective, wanting something new makes sense.

Maybe it's time to experiment with some new RPGs? I mean, I love D&D 5e game play, so I can totally understand the desire to keep using the rules to play, but with new options that appeal. So don't get me wrong on that, or take it as an insult ignoring your desire for new content. But in your case, it sounds like they'd need to invent some radically different new classes. And it might be better to get that by just switching to a different rule set.

Or try running games? Although personally that's what I do when I start to get burnt out on playing, not wanting more but not having any options that appeal. :smallwink:

[Ignimortis]

Sounds to me like what's actually being said is: I've played everything I'm interested in playing in D&D 5e. Which is a completely fair but not matching statement. And certainly from that perspective, wanting something new makes sense.

Maybe it's time to experiment with some new RPGs? I mean, I love D&D 5e game play, so I can totally understand the desire to keep using the rules to play, but with new options that appeal. So don't get me wrong on that, or take it as an insult ignoring your desire for new content. But in your case, it sounds like they'd need to invent some radically different new classes. And it might be better to get that by just switching to a different rule set.

Or try running games? Although personally that's what I do when I start to get burnt out on playing, not wanting more but not having any options that appeal. :smallwink:

Well, I'm running a 3.5e game. And I'm planning to play in a PF game, and currently play in a VtM chronicle. So it's pretty much fine for me personally, but my 5e DM is planning the next campaign already, and I don't think I'm gonna play in that. Maybe I'm just too picky about how my characters feel, both mechanically and in presentation.

[strangebloke]

It doesn't mean all of those options seem attractive to all the players. Personally, I don't even care about half the base classes. Barbarian is pigeonholed into his own stereotype, which holds no interest to me. Bard, Cleric, Druid - not interested at all. Fighter - I'm playing a Battlemaster currently, every other archetype is a downgrade for me (less options), thus I don't want to play any more Fighters. I have some passing interest in Shadow Monks and Paladins, I've played a Hunter Ranger. Rogue might be some fun with Arcane Trickster, Sorcerer was a disappointment, Warlock is only good because of Hexblade which I'm mixing with Battlemaster, and I dislike Wizards.

There. I've played three/four base classes, I've some small interest in two specific subclasses and another base class. If I were to play shorter games, which would be over in, say, half a year, I probably would've played everything I even remotely like by now, and my group might've gone through all the classes and most archetypes at least once. Therefore, I can understand perfectly when people say "there's nothing left to play".

So you straight-up dislike half of the base classes. More archetypes and splats, therefore, wouldn't help retain your interest all that efficiently. Even then, the 'acceptable options' you've described leave you with a dozen options to play as. That's not touching on multiclass builds, switching up backgrounds, using different weapon loadouts, playing the same character at different tiers of play, or in a very different environment... I mean, if you're playing only six months at a time, do you really have time to get sick of a single character concept?

And all of this is predicated on the assumption that playing the game is enjoyable because of fresh mechanics. DnD is fun because of the tactical cooperation, the roleplay, and because you get to hang out and eat pizza with your friends. I've played three clerics, and had fun each time. Half their spell lists overlapped, but it didn't matter because the characters were very fresh and they were reacting to very different situations.

[strangebloke]

Well, I'm running a 3.5e game. And I'm planning to play in a PF game, and currently play in a VtM chronicle. So it's pretty much fine for me personally, but my 5e DM is planning the next campaign already, and I don't think I'm gonna play in that. Maybe I'm just too picky about how my characters feel, both mechanically and in presentation.

Nobody is ever too picky. Sometimes, they just need a different game to work from. 5e DnD certainly isn't for everyone from a design perspective. But that's a different critique from saying 'They haven't published enough material.'

[Ignimortis]

So you straight-up dislike half of the base classes. More archetypes and splats, therefore, wouldn't help retain your interest all that efficiently. Even then, the 'acceptable options' you've described leave you with a dozen options to play as. That's not touching on multiclass builds, switching up backgrounds, using different weapon loadouts, playing the same character at different tiers of play, or in a very different environment... I mean, if you're playing only six months at a time, do you really have time to get sick of a single character concept?

And all of this is predicated on the assumption that playing the game is enjoyable because of fresh mechanics. DnD is fun because of the tactical cooperation, the roleplay, and because you get to hang out and eat pizza with your friends. I've played three clerics, and had fun each time. Half their spell lists overlapped, but it didn't matter because the characters were very fresh and they were reacting to very different situations.

Oh, but other games did retain my interest exactly by that. I haven't played even half of what I would like to play in 3.PF so far. I won't list all the classes I haven't tried and would like to, based on how they look mechanically, because those are in low double digits by now.

Backgrounds only provide different skill selection and roleplay hooks, their mechanical impact is rather negligible.
Weapon selection is at most six different options (twohander, DEX dualwield, STR dualwield, DEX S&B/einhander, STR S&B/einhander, ranged) and they're not that different in play aside from melee/ranged.
As for tiers of play, we usually go through 1 and 2, maybe early 3. I'm not sure what you mean by "a different environment" - is it about setting or a different group of players, or a different group of characters?

[Clistenes]

Honestly, I'd rather see more adventure material, and that they take their time with the Mystic (which is coming, at some point) and really work on getting it right. While I am not a big fan of psionics, there are lots of players who are. I'd like to see their desires met with a well scrubbed and well balanced (with the rest of the game) Mystic.

Oh, yeah, and Dark Sun. (Sorry, I'm like a broken record on that).

It would be nice if they wrote some sourcebooks for Planescape. They have changed too many stuff to just use the old lore. I mean, there aren't even Archons and Eladrins as Alignment Exemplars anymore...

Eberron needs a book too. They should publish that 5th Edition Eberron Sourcebook Keith Baker has repeatly implied he basically has already written and keeps in under his bed because Eberron isn't his property and he couldn't sell it for money...

Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun and Spelljammer stuff would be nice too, but I have about zero hopes they will do that. Forgotten Realms' stuff is easy to convert to Greyhawk with little effort, but the Krynn after the War of the Souls needs to be fleshed out, and Dark Sun and Spelljammer are different enough that you can't play them without homebrewing almost everything...


Ravenloft exists in the Deep Ethereal, also cut off from the gods. The only gods to your pleas are The Dark Powers (and possibly Ezra).

Yet, there was an Adventure Path set in Ravenloft.

Ideally I'd like an adventure book with 32 pages or so on the setting.

5th edition's Barovia is in the Shadowfell. I'm okay with that, Barovia precedes the Plane of Dread, and 3.5's Barovia isn't in the Plane of Dread, either...

I think I would be okay if they changed all the Domains of the Plane of Dread into countries in the Deep Shadowfell... It would make easier for characters to go there, have a few adventures, and kill he Lord of the Domain, getting their release...

The 2nd edition Ravenloft setting was an unescapable place, but lots of modules had the players getting trapped there and going out at the end of the adventure... That's kind of awkward because, well, is Ravenloft an unescapable prision, or just a place for a weekend's adventure?

[ad_hoc]

No numbers, but anecdotally, you have to see what AL is like to believe it in gaming stores near colleges in major US cities. Which is where the most successful ones try to locate themselves. It's huge, and it must bring WoTC tons of money from the "brand new players" market.

If you want new players, game stores near colleges are the easiest way to find them. Even in the Internet era.

Fair enough.

I live in a major city and the people I know who just started playing have done so through friends and friends of friends recommending the game to them, not AL. We also have gaming groups through Meetup.com that host open gaming nights where people can try it.

There are AL games that are run here, I just don't know anything about them. My instinct is that they cater to the converted. People who frequent hobby game stores would already be inclined to try it out and it looks like a lot of the success of 5e is coming from people who were not previously into hobby games.

As you said, it's entirely possible that it is through AL that those people are coming to the game.

[Tanarii]

There are AL games that are run here, I just don't know anything about them. My instinct is that they cater to the converted. People who frequent hobby game stores would already be inclined to try it out and it looks like a lot of the success of 5e is coming from people who were not previously into hobby games.For game stores not near colleges, that probably would be true.

I will say using online arrangements to meet (such as meetup.com) for AL at stores is very common. But most common in my experiences is one player in the know brings a couple of buddies, who then bring a couple of buddies, etc. And when I say near colleges, two of the stores I frequent are across the street from a campus, and the third is just down the street from a campus. I've also visited several in other cities similarly located when I was traveling and looking for a AL game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying official play is where all the newcomers are coming from. But anecdotally, it certainly appears to me to be a big thing in strategically located stores.

[Regitnui]

It would be nice if they wrote some sourcebooks for Planescape. They have changed too many stuff to just use the old lore. I mean, there aren't even Archons and Eladrins as Alignment Exemplars anymore...

Eberron needs a book too. They should publish that 5th Edition Eberron Sourcebook Keith Baker has repeatly implied he basically has already written and keeps in under his bed because Eberron isn't his property and he couldn't sell it for money...

Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun and Spelljammer stuff would be nice too, but I have about zero hopes they will do that. Forgotten Realms' stuff is easy to convert to Greyhawk with little effort, but the Krynn after the War of the Souls needs to be fleshed out, and Dark Sun and Spelljammer are different enough that you can't play them without homebrewing almost everything...

D&D 5e is not moving fast. Want to see explosive growth, watch DMs Guild just after one or more of those settings are released. Ravenloft had nothing compared to some of them. There will be third-party sourcebooks for those settings in a few days.

[ad_hoc]

For game stores not near colleges, that probably would be true.

I will say using online arrangements to meet (such as meetup.com) for AL at stores is very common. But most common in my experiences is one player in the know brings a couple of buddies, who then bring a couple of buddies, etc. And when I say near colleges, two of the stores I frequent are across the street from a campus, and the third is just down the street from a campus. I've also visited several in other cities similarly located when I was traveling and looking for a AL game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying official play is where all the newcomers are coming from. But anecdotally, it certainly appears to me to be a big thing in strategically located stores.

The store I frequent is essentially in the middle of a couple universities. I'm sure AL is successful there, and is successful in general.

I just wonder what that success actually means.

There are over 10 million active 5e players, just how many are in AL or are playing the game because of AL?

While I know AL doesn't need to be played at a store, I think that is the most common place to do it. So this is probably a broader question of how important hobby game stores are to D&D? The stores have been there all along, I don't think the growth is due to the stores. Indeed, there are probably fewer hobby game stores than ever right now. Amazon sales are high.

Obviously WotC feels that AL is worthwhile enough to keep going. It's successful at what its trying to do.

I wonder how important it is for D&D to have adventurer seasons carry over characters. If a player has a character in a Dark Sun season and can't carry that character over to a different setting, is that player going to stop playing D&D or not recommend D&D to their friends?

That was the original question being posed. I think the answer is no.

[strangebloke]

Oh, but other games did retain my interest exactly by that. I haven't played even half of what I would like to play in 3.PF so far. I won't list all the classes I haven't tried and would like to, based on how they look mechanically, because those are in low double digits by now.

Backgrounds only provide different skill selection and roleplay hooks, their mechanical impact is rather negligible.
Weapon selection is at most six different options (twohander, DEX dualwield, STR dualwield, DEX S&B/einhander, STR S&B/einhander, ranged) and they're not that different in play aside from melee/ranged.
As for tiers of play, we usually go through 1 and 2, maybe early 3. I'm not sure what you mean by "a different environment" - is it about setting or a different group of players, or a different group of characters?

See, I think we're just having a disconnect about priorities here. To my mind, a STR-based goliath zealot barbarian with the pirate background is a totally different character from a Mountain Dwarf BattleRager with the acolyte background. Yes, they're both religious barbarians, but I'd play them very differently. I've seriously played a reskin of a previous character with nothing changed but roleplay features... and it's great!

I get to hang out with friends, I get to play in a new adventure, I get to see new sights, I get to put on a different persona... Even if the mechanics are only slightly different, I'm still going to be having a great time. There's so much fodder for roleplay fun built-in to backgrounds, races, and different campaign settings that I never lack for entertainment.

I optimize, but for me weapon choice is mostly about aesthetic. Greatsword wielding Ranger! Wizard in Plate! Stuff like really changes how I view my character.

Conversely, I felt that the mechanical complexity in 3x was mostly... thematically empty. Oooh I persisted Elation on my allies which means they now get a +2 to their STR and DEX and +5 feet of movement! That's potent, but, really, looking back I can't see why I bothered. Two levels of Divine Oracle for... slight improvements to my divination magic... swap out after those two levels for some Sacred Exorcist. Not that I'm particularly likely to exorcise anything, but you know, extra pool of turn undead attempts to fuel my metamagic to persist more flavorless mechanical buffs...

There's options in 3e, but I care about the flavor of the food I'm chewing and the flavor of classes in 3x boils down to "Does skills," "Hits things hardsucks at everything," or "Is a God."

I enjoyed the minigame, learning tons of mechanics and finding out how to abuse each new subsystem (psionics, magic, martial adepts, incarnum, etc.) but 5e has way more options where it matters.

[Biggstick]

-Snip-

5e has way more options where it matters.

They seriously need a thumbs up/like button, or something along those lines on the forums. I agree with everything you said, 100 percent.

[Ignimortis]

-snip-

I enjoyed the minigame, learning tons of mechanics and finding out how to abuse each new subsystem (psionics, magic, martial adepts, incarnum, etc.) but 5e has way more options where it matters.

And I feel that all those subsystems provided much more depth.
Martial Adepts in particular are my favourite, and I staunchly maintain that ToB/PoW are the best thing that ever happened to D&D. Strikes, counters, boosts - it's what "guys who hit stuff" lacked all along. The ability to say "no" to that save-or-die. The ability to move and still hit like a truck. The ability to do something different with your actions, like teleport or fly or grant people extra actions. It's like spellcasting without being all-encompassing and overpowered in utility (which I think is still an issue in 5e, if a bit less so). And to be honest, playing Warblade at low double digit levels (11-13) was exhilarating. That was one of the few times I felt, in a D&D game, like I played a demigod of war. Move, leap, unleash hell, cleave someone atwain, smirk at the horrified (IC and OOC, fear effects are still a thing) enemies next turn, refresh from that, make another grand move...

Maybe that was because there was no God Wizard, but I've never seen a real one in play, the boogieman whose name is whispered on these forums, who breaks campaigns by level 11 because he's got Planar Binding and he's bored. Either people did some crowd-control or buffs or just wanted to throw fireballs and picked evoker to throw more.

It's just a difference in perception, I guess. I can roleplay whatever I want, the question is whether the system supports that mechanically, and therefore I put mechanics in any system first and then consider what kind of character I want to create with that particular skillset and how they should fit into the game. Therefore, more mechanical content equals more possible characters as I envision them.

[strangebloke]

And I feel that all those subsystems provided much more depth.
Martial Adepts in particular are my favourite, and I staunchly maintain that ToB/PoW are the best thing that ever happened to D&D. Strikes, counters, boosts - it's what "guys who hit stuff" lacked all along. The ability to say "no" to that save-or-die. The ability to move and still hit like a truck. The ability to do something different with your actions, like teleport or fly or grant people extra actions. It's like spellcasting without being all-encompassing and overpowered in utility (which I think is still an issue in 5e, if a bit less so). And to be honest, playing Warblade at low double digit levels (11-13) was exhilarating. That was one of the few times I felt, in a D&D game, like I played a demigod of war. Move, leap, unleash hell, cleave someone atwain, smirk at the horrified (IC and OOC, fear effects are still a thing) enemies next turn, refresh from that, make another grand move...

I never saw the 'God' wizard either. But the first campaign I played in showcased a druid. By fifth level her animal companion could eat my fighter. We didn't know what we were doing. Later campaign I built the most absurdly overpowered barbarian I could, DM gave me free LA buy off, waived a lot of PRC requirements... And by tenth I was still lackluster compared to the summons the wizard could call up.

Anyway, not really my point.

Tob was, mechanically, the most beautiful thing to happen in 3x. But it's also the worst example of bland flavor. What the heck is my character doing when he performs 'white Raven tactics?' A warblade is a guy who wars? it's completely divorced from the conventions of the material that inspired DND, and the mechanics have no tie to anything concrete. The distinguishing mechanical factors between the classes come down to how they refresh their maneuvers how much HP they have, etc.

Anyway, this is my last word on the topic. Don't want to start an edition war.

[opaopajr]

....How? We just got over twenty new subclasses, and the vast majority of them are good. There's very few mechanical niches that haven't been explored yet. (fist-fighter who isn't a monk, grappler... And there's tons of good homebrew and homebrewed settings.

I mean I've played like 3? 4? campaigns since release counting campaigns that aborted before session 3. That's like 5 or six characters I've played, which isn't half of the base classes.

I was talking about burnout from the perspective of disinterest about new PC splat content. You do not need to exhaustively play new content that does not interest you to end up not being served by receiving more of the same. I am perfectly fine running Basic 5e from here on out, yup, just the four base classes, with maybe a few Setting-specific Backgrounds and Gear. So extra player options is mostly widget cruft to me because I won't likely be using it in play.

(That said, I've played over half the 12 core classes, and several archetypes for some classes. And I've played a few Class>Archetype repeats with different Backgrounds and Races. I've played my fair share, I think.)

I rode this train before with other companies, like White Wolf, and promptly got back off once I started to see where this Player Option splat treadmill was going. It's nice if you want it, but too often ends up bleeding edge, corner case, specificity. It doesn't end up in my games unless I work my setting around it. And sure such content may be used in another's campaign but it does not incentivize me to buy my own copy.

Getting older I'd rather have tools that save me GM time, or are inspiring setting pieces to run or port into my campaigns. Crafting ever more detailed PCs by juggling new options is a game that holds much less return on fun for me than it used to. So more player-sided content is mostly extraneous to me and just takes up my living space. :smallcool:

(That's why I think the cheap, small, and disposability of comics might be a decent one-shot adventure format. :smallamused: )

[Tanarii]

So this is probably a broader question of how important hobby game stores are to D&D? The stores have been there all along, I don't think the growth is due to the stores. Indeed, there are probably fewer hobby game stores than ever right now. Amazon sales are high.
Oh right. I think they, and AL, and a somewhat small vector in terms of giving people a place to play for the first time. By which I mean find a DM, not find space. Although for youngsters living at home or in dorms, the latter is no small thing.

Otoh I know at two different groups of high school kids that did it the "traditional" way: one of them grabbed a bunch of friends, and started DMing in his parents living room. (Actually I know the parents. And had to assure them their kids are only going a little bit crazy. Not completely insane. :smallamused: )

[mephnick]

Oh right. I think they, and AL, and a somewhat small vector in terms of giving people a place to play for the first time. By which I mean find a DM, not find space. Although for youngsters living at home or in dorms, the latter is no small thing.

Or for groups of parents with young kids. In one of my groups none of us can host so we play at a game store.

I guess we could play at home, but quietly playing D&D seems impossible to me.

[the_brazenburn]

Don't forget that a lot of high schools have organized D&D clubs, most of which are student-led and thus 5e, since the students don't have experience with 3.5 or 4e like us (semi)-old grognards. They're probably cheaper and more accessible for young gamers than AL. Thus, these are likely the new generation's first exposé to the world of D&D.