Making a Mega-Monk

[Trey Bright]

I'm planning out a character for a game here in the future that my GM is moving towards, and I'm planning on playing a monk. I'm looking at two paths and I'm not sure which to go by. I'm looking at three prestige classes:
Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Defender of Sealtiel
Apostle of Peace

I'll be taking the vow of poverty and possibly vow of chastity and abstinence. I might take vow of non-violence and peace, but I'm not sure. Getting in to IoPS will be easy because the vow of poverty gives sacred feats for free as part of progression. I also really want to get in to DoS because it would make me tough and able to defend my party from particularly troublesome enemies.

AoP seems really interesting and seems like it might be a fun twist to try and play.

Any advice from the Playground I should know? Anyone have a lot of experience with the Book of Exalted Deeds?

Oh yeah, btw, I'm shooting for Saint as an end goal for this character. My DM likes long games and plans on running our current characters past epic to mythic levels, so anything I should know/plan for that with a character like this?

EDIT:
So the background for this character is that in a past life, he started as a monk (or something similar), but had his life ruined when a dragon destroyed his monastery (because it was full of pretty things and the dragon wanted it). He decided that he wanted power, so he became a Dragon Shaman to emulate dragons and gain their power. He then discovered Dracolitches, and decided he could become more powerful through undeath. He took levels in either Death Master or Dread Necromancer and became what is essentially a dragon priest from skyrim. After some time, he was slain and he was supposed to pass on to the afterlife for judgement, but he refused. His will was so great that his spirit lost itself in the void between worlds. Thousands and thousands of years pass and Samson (my characters name) reawakens to find the world is completely different. Many different eras have come and gone and he's lost all his power. He decides that he will redeem himself for all the evil he has done and set out to help change/save the world.

So I'd like to stick to as close to monk as possible, and I'll probably take the vow of poverty to signify his change of heart. He used to lust after wealth and power like a dragon, and now he's vowed to change his ways, so he shall take nothing more then he needs.

[AnimeTheCat]

I can let you know really quick that you're going to get many many responses thrown at you that talk about monk being really bad and Vow of Poverty being really bad and even worse on a monk.

That out of the way, I disagree with all of that only because not every game is the same as another. If you've talked to the DM and the rest of the party and your Vow of Poverty Monk won't be too far behind or too far ahead of the rest of the party, you'll be fine. You've just got to make sure the idea will work in the campaign. Also, with the Saint template, make sure your DM knows that. Saint isn't just a thing that happens, the DM has to grant it to you through the will of the deities.

On the note of the Vows, if you're doing this I can't recommend playing a human, azurin, strongheart halfling, or some other race that grants a bonus feat enough. This lets you get Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Vow of Non-Violence at level 1 and Vow of Peace at level 2. These two levels will accelerate your AC to pretty outrageous levels early on and improve things like stunning fist pretty well. I like all of the Vows personally, they are cool to me. Be careful about Vow of Purity, because punching an undead means you have to stop and purify yourself and without being a cleric you'll have no easy way to make holy water to perform the cleansing ritual and you are a Vow of Poverty character so you can't exactly carry around vials of holy water to purify yourself soooo.... just be careful, or work it out with your DM.

You will likely hit a point where you feel like you don't have options with this character and you're still going to have basic monk problems like needing pretty much every ability score to be as high as possible (except Charisma, but even that you'll probably want pretty high if you're wanting to try and redeem bad guys via the rules in BoED).

Take Aways: Make sure your VoP Character will fit in with the group (flavor and power) and make sure you're aware that you're probably going to miss even the most mundane of items, like rope, at some point.

[Red Fel]

I'm not going to crap on Monk, because honestly, with some good system mastery you can have some fun with them. And I'm not going to crap on Vow of Poverty because, with the right team, you can still do something. Not a lot, mind you, but something.

No, I'm here to warn you about Vow of Nonviolence. I mean, have you read it? Have you actually read it? I'll give you a minute.

Back? Okay. Do you see the part about how it influences those around you? Let me dig the quotes up. First, how it affects them indirectly: "If you leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies, you have broken your vow." Translation - you have to actively discourage your allies from killing helpless foes. If they kill a helpless foe, you lose this feat forever. So you have to indirectly lean on them.

Now, let's talk about how it directly affects them: "Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum equal to your character level. The duration of the increased penalty starts from the latest slaying." Literally holy crap. Any ally who slays a helpless foe is penalized because they keep you around. The stronger you are, the longer that penalty lasts. You're talking about going into epic levels, as in above level 20 - that means all day.

This isn't a Paladin who has complicated relationships with Evil characters. This is your character choices forcing other players to make character choices.

Now, you haven't said whether the other PCs will be Exalted characters. Maybe they will. Maybe this is not a problem. Maybe you're all on a journey of peace, spreading a message of love and joy to the world. But if you're not, your character's presence actively harms the party. Not just that your character is useless - he's actively penalizing the party unless they comport their actions to fit your choices.

Keep in mind also that this is a prerequisite for Apostle of Peace. So if you want to go with AoP, you're going to need to work that out with the other players before gameplay starts. Nobody wants that sprung on them.

Here's the bottom line - Vows, at their best, are an exchange. You give up power and potential, and you get RP potential. Because at the end of the day, Vows are a nerf - what you get out of them just doesn't make up for what you lose. I didn't take potshots at Vow of Poverty specifically, but the criticism applies there, too - any class dependent on items (which is to say, any class that doesn't have spells or the like) is going to lose out hard, and not get as much as you'd think to make up for it. Vows are best suited to a game where everyone is onboard - a game where everyone is holding themselves to this kind of standard. Otherwise, your character will, at best, fall behind in a major way - and at worst constitute an active detriment to the party.

Despite what it sounds like, I'm not saying that Vows are inherently, absolutely bad. But they take some major understanding with both the DM and other players. They also take some major understanding from the player - that is, from you - of how they work and interact with other things. For example, wanting to mix Vow of Poverty with Defender of Sealtiel - a class which, at best, means you'll be taking a lot of abuse - is basically suicidal. Not to mention that the whole idea of "tanking" falls apart in a tabletop game, where a character who deals no damage and is wearing no armor is about as threatening as a chinchilla, and as high a priority target. (Also, standing completely still? Not a great way to protect people.) It suggests that, just maybe, you might want to become more familiar with the material in BoED before you dive in whole hog like that.

[Trey Bright]

I can let you know really quick that you're going to get many many responses thrown at you that talk about monk being really bad and Vow of Poverty being really bad and even worse on a monk.

That out of the way, I disagree with all of that only because not every game is the same as another. If you've talked to the DM and the rest of the party and your Vow of Poverty Monk won't be too far behind or too far ahead of the rest of the party, you'll be fine. You've just got to make sure the idea will work in the campaign. Also, with the Saint template, make sure your DM knows that. Saint isn't just a thing that happens, the DM has to grant it to you through the will of the deities.

On the note of the Vows, if you're doing this I can't recommend playing a human, azurin, strongheart halfling, or some other race that grants a bonus feat enough. This lets you get Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Vow of Non-Violence at level 1 and Vow of Peace at level 2. These two levels will accelerate your AC to pretty outrageous levels early on and improve things like stunning fist pretty well. I like all of the Vows personally, they are cool to me. Be careful about Vow of Purity, because punching an undead means you have to stop and purify yourself and without being a cleric you'll have no easy way to make holy water to perform the cleansing ritual and you are a Vow of Poverty character so you can't exactly carry around vials of holy water to purify yourself soooo.... just be careful, or work it out with your DM.

You will likely hit a point where you feel like you don't have options with this character and you're still going to have basic monk problems like needing pretty much every ability score to be as high as possible (except Charisma, but even that you'll probably want pretty high if you're wanting to try and redeem bad guys via the rules in BoED).

Take Aways: Make sure your VoP Character will fit in with the group (flavor and power) and make sure you're aware that you're probably going to miss even the most mundane of items, like rope, at some point.

I was planning on playing human, but is it worth it to take VoNV? Or should I take a different feat like a nimbus of light?

[Trey Bright]

I'm not going to crap on Monk, because honestly, with some good system mastery you can have some fun with them. And I'm not going to crap on Vow of Poverty because, with the right team, you can still do something. Not a lot, mind you, but something.

No, I'm here to warn you about Vow of Nonviolence. I mean, have you read it? Have you actually read it? I'll give you a minute.

Back? Okay. Do you see the part about how it influences those around you? Let me dig the quotes up. First, how it affects them indirectly: "If you leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies, you have broken your vow." Translation - you have to actively discourage your allies from killing helpless foes. If they kill a helpless foe, you lose this feat forever. So you have to indirectly lean on them.

Now, let's talk about how it directly affects them: "Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes a -1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum equal to your character level. The duration of the increased penalty starts from the latest slaying." Literally holy crap. Any ally who slays a helpless foe is penalized because they keep you around. The stronger you are, the longer that penalty lasts. You're talking about going into epic levels, as in above level 20 - that means all day.

This isn't a Paladin who has complicated relationships with Evil characters. This is your character choices forcing other players to make character choices.

Now, you haven't said whether the other PCs will be Exalted characters. Maybe they will. Maybe this is not a problem. Maybe you're all on a journey of peace, spreading a message of love and joy to the world. But if you're not, your character's presence actively harms the party. Not just that your character is useless - he's actively penalizing the party unless they comport their actions to fit your choices.

Keep in mind also that this is a prerequisite for Apostle of Peace. So if you want to go with AoP, you're going to need to work that out with the other players before gameplay starts. Nobody wants that sprung on them.

Here's the bottom line - Vows, at their best, are an exchange. You give up power and potential, and you get RP potential. Because at the end of the day, Vows are a nerf - what you get out of them just doesn't make up for what you lose. I didn't take potshots at Vow of Poverty specifically, but the criticism applies there, too - any class dependent on items (which is to say, any class that doesn't have spells or the like) is going to lose out hard, and not get as much as you'd think to make up for it. Vows are best suited to a game where everyone is onboard - a game where everyone is holding themselves to this kind of standard. Otherwise, your character will, at best, fall behind in a major way - and at worst constitute an active detriment to the party.

Despite what it sounds like, I'm not saying that Vows are inherently, absolutely bad. But they take some major understanding with both the DM and other players. They also take some major understanding from the player - that is, from you - of how they work and interact with other things. For example, wanting to mix Vow of Poverty with Defender of Sealtiel - a class which, at best, means you'll be taking a lot of abuse - is basically suicidal. Not to mention that the whole idea of "tanking" falls apart in a tabletop game, where a character who deals no damage and is wearing no armor is about as threatening as a chinchilla, and as high a priority target. (Also, standing completely still? Not a great way to protect people.) It suggests that, just maybe, you might want to become more familiar with the material in BoED before you dive in whole hog like that.

That's all fair. Would playing DoS be better for something like a Paladin then? I'm not too familiar with the material and want to make a character that can function well, but still be fun to play.

[daremetoidareyo]

if you take human, nymphs kiss is the best first level bonus exalted feat you can take. after blowing the rest of your human feats on sacred vow and VOP.
On a monk, intuitive attack is the second best exalted feat you can take, you can dump strength. Peace and non violence can be added on at later levels.

The monk multiclass feats offer some neat additions also. Ascetic mage moves your monk stat to charisma, which pairs really well with warmage, bard, or favored soul with southern magician feat.

[Red Fel]

That's all fair. Would playing DoS be better for something like a Paladin then? I'm not too familiar with the material and want to make a character that can function well, but still be fun to play.

The better question is, "What do you want to do?" There are ways to make a Paladin function at certain tasks, and ways to make a DoS function at certain tasks, but it helps to know if what you want to do aligns with those tasks.

For example, a Paladin into Fist of Raziel becomes a smiting machine. But if smiting isn't your aim, Fist of Raziel isn't your game.

So let's look at how DoS works with a Paladin. In concept, it should work well. DoS is, according to lore, the defensive counterpart to the more offensive Fist of Raziel. That said?

First off, DoS does not progress casting. Paladin casting is middling at best, but with DoS you're giving it up entirely. In exchange, it gets:
Defensive Stance: It's basically an anti-Rage. Stay in one place and get a bunch of defensive buffs. Not bad, but let's face it, unless the space you're blocking is literally the only way to get through, you have just rendered yourself a pointless obstacle to be avoided, not engaged with. Fine if you're blocking a doorway, kind of rubbish otherwise.
SLAs:
Shield of Faith 3/day: A touch spell that grants a Deflection bonus to AC. That's nice, and it's on the Cleric list, not Paladin. Worth noting, however, that if you actually took Cleric levels, you'd have way more uses of it. (Also, Prestige Paladin is totally a thing.)
Shield Other 1/day: This is literally a Paladin spell. A spell your Paladin can already cast. Or could, if you let him progress his casting. Which DoS does not. Admittedly, it's a 2nd-level spell for Paladins, so he can only cast it starting at 8th level, but assuming you've specced for Wis, it's not too tough for him to use this at least once per day.
Blood of the Martyr 1/day: Also a Paladin spell. As above, but this is a 4th-level Paladin spell, which means level 14 at a minimum. But again, putting it out there - you can already cast it.
Protective Aura 1/day, later 3/day: This is likely a typo, and probably refers to Bastion of Good, which is a 7th-level Cleric spell. Being able to 1/day SLA a 7th-level spell is kind of a big deal, and this is a pretty solid spell.
Glory of the Martyr 1/day: This is a Paladin 4 spell, like Blood of the Martyr; potent, yes, but again, something you can already do.
Magic Circle: Having a constant Magic Circle Against Evil is admittedly pretty useful. Points for this.
So, in total, what does this class give you that you can't already do as a Paladin? Shield of Faith 3/day, Bastion of Good 3/day, and a constant Magic Circle effect, basically. Which is, you know, not bad, but is it worth ten class levels?

Now, getting these abilities as, say, a Fighter, is basically a strict upgrade - sure, you miss out on feats, but gain SLAs that you just can't get otherwise. But on a Paladin, it's not amazing.

Contrast that with the Fist of Raziel, who gets 9/10 levels of casting progression, gets the always-on Magic Circle at first level, and gets a whole series of upgrades to normal attacks and Smites. Those are great class features that do wonders for the underappreciated Paladin.

And that's the point. If the goal is "Make a powerful character," there are plenty of ways to do that. If the goal is "Make a powerful character using classes from BoED," we can do that too. If the goal is still narrower, we can do that, but you need to know the goal.

So, chief. What'll it be?

[Trey Bright]

My goal was originally to make a monk. They're pretty cool in 5e and a friend of mine recommends them pretty highly. I like all the content in the BoED and even though I've played about 3 years of 3.x dnd, I've never done a monk before. Now though, I suppose I'm not too sure. I'd still like to make a monk with the saint template, I'm just not sure what the best way to get there is. I've noticed most peoold here have ignored the Initiate of Pistis Sophia in their posts. Is there something wrong with that prestige?

[Jormengand]

I've noticed most peoold here have ignored the Initiate of Pistis Sophia in their posts. Is there something wrong with that prestige?

It's basically a better version of monk, which isn't saying a great deal. It works fine with what you're going for, I'd think.

[Telonius]

I've actually played a Vow of Poverty Monk from levels 1-20, way back when Shackled City first came out. Unarmed combat can be fun, but Monk is very, very weak mechanically and VoP tends to make that worse, especially as you go up in level.

You can absolutely have fun with a Monk, even a VoP one; good ol' Mordechai is still one of my favorites, years after the fact. But that fun came mostly from out-of-combat things, not from dealing loads of damage. His best options on the battlefield were usually to flank with the Rogue, and avoid being hit.

If you're looking to build a stronger, more versatile version of an unarmed combatant, I would suggest Tome of Battle's Swordsage (unarmed variant). But if Tome of Battle is off the table, and you're dead set on Monk and BoED prestige classes, Apostle of Peace will probably be your mechanically strongest choice. The reason being, is that it gets spellcasting and 9th-level spells.

[Red Fel]

It's basically a better version of monk, which isn't saying a great deal. It works fine with what you're going for, I'd think.

I'll actually take this one. Yeah, it's sort of an upgraded Monk - sort of a Monk/Paladin theurge, actually, what with the Detecting and Smiting and the advancing Monk abilities. One of the key features is that you gain Vows as bonus feats, which - hey, if that's something you actually want on your character - could be useful.

But here's the thing. As you've mentioned, Monks are pretty cool in 5e. (I can't confirm that; haven't played 5e.) In 3.5e, though, they're pretty widely mocked. Others (and I) have noted that it's possible to make a very solid Monk, but that takes a lot of system mastery and available texts; absent that, it's an awkwardly designed class with more flavor than utility. Frankly, you could make a "Monk" just by grabbing a Fighter and slapping IUS (and maybe SUS) on him.

And then, Initiate of Pistis Sophia comes along and (1) combines the less-than-amazing-by-default Monk with the similarly-not-nearly-as-cool-as-it-sounded Paladin, and (2) gives you a bunch of bonus feats (yay!) that are actually really narrow in scope and tend to hurt more than help your character (boo).

It's also worth noting that if you want to combine Monk and Paladin, that concept exists as a feat. It's called Ascetic Knight, it's in Complete Adventurer, it lets your Monk and Paladin levels stack for the purpose of unarmed damage and Smite Evil damage, and it lets you freely multiclass between Monk and Paladin classes. And let's be honest - if you took a two-level dip of Paladin, you're already getting a lot of what IoPS gets you (Smite, Detect) and more (Divine Grace, Lay on Hands).

I mean, as Jormengand says, it's something of an upgrade over Monk; it progresses your Monk basics while also giving you some Paladin treats. But ultimately, it's still a Monk-plus, and anything with a core component of Monk has disappointment at its heart.

Can a Monk-based build be good? Yes. Is it by default? Not hardly.

[Troacctid]

If it were me, I'd go Fist of Zuoken. Now that's a real Monk prestige class. Pair it with one of the human variants from Complete Psionic. 👌

I also like the Master of the X Wind prestige classes from Dragon Magazine. They're kind of offbeat, but they have cool flavor.

Enlightened Fist and Sacred Fist are probably the most powerful options, and can lead to a nice gish build.

Oh, and Jaunter. It's not a "Monk" class per se, but it is easy to enter as a Monk (since you can get the feats as bonus feats), and it adds a ton of utility to an otherwise boring build.

I don't like Initiate of Pistis Sophia. I think it's underwhelming for the level you enter it. It's not powerful and it's not really interesting either.

[MeimuHakurei]

Are you dead set on the monk class in particular? There's a couple of other unarmed combat classes that could fulfill the role while having not as many flaws:

-Swordsage, Unarmed Variant
Gains some of the basic features and trades the passive benefits for manuevers to counter opponent's attacks, do precise hits and make use of high Concentration, wildly leap and tear into enemies, slip through shadows and delibitate foes, stand firm and endure punishment or to imbue your strikes with fire.

-Psychic Warrior
The most martially inclined psionic class. The Tashalatora feat allows you to gain unarmored AC and unarmed attacks like a monk, though you'll have to wait until Level 3 to get it.

Both martial manuevers and psionic powers also fit the mystical wuxia-like flair of the monk.

Either way, Flurry of Blows is compatible with two-weapon fighting, so you can grab a quarterstaff (Vow of Poverty does permit a single, nonmagical weapon), pack TWF feats and spam attacks as a rampaging helicopter.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

[SNIP]See, this is how you know Red Fel is evil. That's how he draws you in. He's helpful, and he's nice about it.

Also check out Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial) for some seriously optimized monks. They're designed to solo the most powerfully designed monsters in 3e: the elder evils.

If you have any questions about how the builds work, feel free to ask about 'em.

[Trey Bright]

I'll actually take this one. Yeah, it's sort of an upgraded Monk - sort of a Monk/Paladin theurge, actually, what with the Detecting and Smiting and the advancing Monk abilities. One of the key features is that you gain Vows as bonus feats, which - hey, if that's something you actually want on your character - could be useful.

But here's the thing. As you've mentioned, Monks are pretty cool in 5e. (I can't confirm that; haven't played 5e.) In 3.5e, though, they're pretty widely mocked. Others (and I) have noted that it's possible to make a very solid Monk, but that takes a lot of system mastery and available texts; absent that, it's an awkwardly designed class with more flavor than utility. Frankly, you could make a "Monk" just by grabbing a Fighter and slapping IUS (and maybe SUS) on him.

And then, Initiate of Pistis Sophia comes along and (1) combines the less-than-amazing-by-default Monk with the similarly-not-nearly-as-cool-as-it-sounded Paladin, and (2) gives you a bunch of bonus feats (yay!) that are actually really narrow in scope and tend to hurt more than help your character (boo).

It's also worth noting that if you want to combine Monk and Paladin, that concept exists as a feat. It's called Ascetic Knight, it's in Complete Adventurer, it lets your Monk and Paladin levels stack for the purpose of unarmed damage and Smite Evil damage, and it lets you freely multiclass between Monk and Paladin classes. And let's be honest - if you took a two-level dip of Paladin, you're already getting a lot of what IoPS gets you (Smite, Detect) and more (Divine Grace, Lay on Hands).

I mean, as Jormengand says, it's something of an upgrade over Monk; it progresses your Monk basics while also giving you some Paladin treats. But ultimately, it's still a Monk-plus, and anything with a core component of Monk has disappointment at its heart.

Can a Monk-based build be good? Yes. Is it by default? Not hardly.

I've played 3.5 for a good 3 years and the DM has stated that any published official source is okay, so I have a lot of resources at my disposal. I just don't know where to start. The reason I made the jump from 3.5 to 5e is because it's like comparing the ocean to a hot tub. Sure the ocean is fun, but its hard to know where to look for what you want. That's my biggest problem. From the sounds of the other posts on here, I'll be looking in to sword sage and also in to ascetic knight. I'm not 100% dead set on monk, but it's where I'm starting with this character. I don't know if I said it earlier, but I'm also shooting for the Saint Template from BoED. I'm hoping that will give me a nice little boost of power I'll need to survive.

[AnimeTheCat]

I thought I had replied earlier, but I guess I didn't.

I've played both a Monk and a Healer with Vow of Poverty, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Peace. In my experience it didn't negatively impact the party at all. I was the face of the party in both situations, I made it clear that I wanted to try the diplomatic solution whenever possible. I would regularly try to get the opponents to swear vows of non-interference. If they denied (a topic not covered by the text of the feat) the DM ruled it was as if they had broken the vow and my allies could act with impunity. If the accepted, there was never any need to kill them and we gained XP as normal for solving the encounter. Also, our DM decided that an ally killing a helpless foe only effecte them as you did not willingly break your vow, the ally willingly killed a helpless foe knowing what your desires and code of conduct were. If I turned a blind eye to it and just let the ally haphazardly slaughter innocent helpless characters, then I would lose my vow. That was that particular DM's interpretation of vow, specifically about the parts where you lose it if you intentionally break it. Specifically, Vow of Non-Violence only applies to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids, so you can still deal real damage to Animals, Aberrations, Magical Beasts, Fey, Vermin, Outsiders, Elementals, Dragons, Giants, etc. You get the picture. It's not nearly as limiting as some seem to think. Just use your brain first and try to figure out a way of solving things before they go to blows. Even after they go to blows, figure out how to solve it with as little harm as possible. If you have Vow of Peace, you also get an aura of Calm Emotions (which, consequently, has it's Will Save DC boosted by 4 from your Vow of Non-Violence). The ONLY caveat to Vow of Peace is that you can't deal real damage or ability damage to any living creature (you can still punch the crap out of undead and constructs though). Depending on how much of a jerk your DM is, this can be taken to extremes. If your DM pulls the "you drank water from that stream? There were really tiny creatures in that water, you've lost your Vow of Peace" just leave the game, that DM is not your friend.

The payoffs to these feats are awesome. You get added Defensive options (like shattering manufactured weapons on your body) increased defensive capabilities in the form of deflection, sacred, and natural armor bonuses that explicitly stack with those from Vow of Poverty. I enjoyed being a stellar diplomat and essentially solving problems without violence (go figure, that was the idea behind the character). My only exception (in both cases) was undead, which I slaughtered without remorse because they were awful.

Depending on the starting level of your game, you can take something like Nymph's kiss or nimbus of light at level 1, in fact Nymph's Kiss is best taken at level 1. Nimbus of light is kind of meh, in my opinion. You get a small bonus to diplomacy and sense motive with good aligned creatures and you get a lightbulb over your head. That means, unless you're soley tramping around good aligned cities, you're not super likely to get those bonuses. Also, it's a circumstance bonus so it won't stack with Nymph's kiss or Masterwork Items. Ultimately, Nymph's Kiss is just better, granting you additional skill points AND a +2 to ALL charisma based skills against ALL targets. I suggested taking Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace early because that gets you those benefits quicker and at lower levels those benefits make you outstanding. Your pick though, pick your ravage (see what I did there... :smallwink:)


Back? Okay. Do you see the part about how it influences those around you? Let me dig the quotes up. First, how it affects them indirectly: "If you leave a helpless foe to be killed by your allies, you have broken your vow." Translation - you have to actively discourage your allies from killing helpless foes. If they kill a helpless foe, you lose this feat forever. So you have to indirectly lean on them.

I talked about it briefly above, but it doesn't seem to me (or the DMs that I had when I played either of my vow characters) that whenever an ally kills ANY helpless or defenseless foe you lose your vow. Leaving a helpless foe to be killed by your allies is basically you pulling the trigger yourself. Speaking out an telling your allies to leave the unconcious/helpless/defenseless foe alone is enough to satisfy your requirement of no leaving a helpless foe to be killed by your allies. You're actively working towards it. Also, going into the game with the party understanding your limitations is important. Should the other players be very opposed to it, go ahead and don't go for the non-violent route. If the party is ameable to it there's no reason not to try it out. Nobody can predict the outcome of events at someone else's table through lines of text in a book and on the internet, so there's a chance that this could work well for his party's dynamic. We just can't know that from this post.

I think that if you, the DM, and the Party are all willing, you should give the vows a chance, and even apostle of peace. It can be fun, but it really depends on your group.

EDIT:
About the saint template, I said it before but it bears repeating; Make sure your DM knows you want to do this and make sure your party does too. It's a LA +2 template so, while it's easy enough to apply mid-game, it will mean you will get XP as if you were 2 levels higher than the party. Eventually they will catch up again and your character will not feel as powerful and that may feel bad, so this is just a fair warning message about that particular template. Aside from the warning, I do really like the template and it is loads of fun. It's all fun really.

[Trey Bright]

See, this is how you know Red Fel is evil. That's how he draws you in. He's helpful, and he's nice about it.

Also check out Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial) for some seriously optimized monks. They're designed to solo the most powerfully designed monsters in 3e: the elder evils.

If you have any questions about how the builds work, feel free to ask about 'em.

Reading through it...theres a lot to read...and it really /really/ crazy! I love it.

[Trey Bright]

-snip-


Awesome! Thank you so much for the input. This is making me want to lean towards the peace path again XD. I know I'll be playing a human if I do go this path to grab as many of the vows as possible at first level. What level did you play to? Did you max the Apostle of Peace and Monk both? And if I do run out of vows/feats to take mid way through, are there any other books that go well with the BoED that you'd recommend I look through for material as well?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I thought I had replied earlier, but I guess I didn't.

I've played both a Monk and a Healer with Vow of Poverty, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Peace. In my experience it didn't negatively impact the party at all.So, "If your DM uses houserules, VoNV and VoPe won't negatively affect the party." News at 11:00.

[Troacctid]

Vow of Nonviolence only ties your allies' hands if the foe is helpless or defenseless. It doesn't stop them killing the enemy in combat. It should be pretty rare for it to be a problem. Vow of Peace is the more problematic one, since it nails all your allies with calm emotions and prevents you casting any spells against the enemies.

[AnimeTheCat]

Awesome! Thank you so much for the input. This is making me want to lean towards the peace path again XD. I know I'll be playing a human if I do go this path to grab as many of the vows as possible at first level. What level did you play to? Did you max the Apostle of Peace and Monk both? And if I do run out of vows/feats to take mid way through, are there any other books that go well with the BoED that you'd recommend I look through for material as well?

I wasn't too interested in the class features, just accelerated casting so I switched to sacred fist at level 2 so as to continue monk things while also improving the important apostle of peace features. The specifying touch ability is just like your calm emotion aura, just targeted and a roll from you to succeed.

As for feats, intuitive attack is pretty great and let's you focus on wisdom over dex a bit and can help reduce MADness a little. Touch of golden ice means you can flurry touch attacks and possibly afflict a target with golden ice multiple times as a full attack. It's pretty neat. Bear in mind that you can only use it on undead and you'll need to keep your body covered otherwise. It's risky. Sanctify no strike is neat, but requires level 10 monk so probably a no go. It's really not very useful and fist of the heavens isn't all that great either.

I don't know of any other sources for exalted feat aside from BoED.

[Troacctid]

I don't know of any other sources for exalted feat aside from BoED.
Champions of Valor and Player's Guide to Faerun offer additional exalted feats.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, "If your DM uses houserules, VoNV and VoPe won't negatively affect the party." News at 11:00.

Haha, funny home. Last time I checked, if the party didn't slaughter defenseless opponents nothing negative happened to anyone. Also, if the target is unconscious or defenseless is it a threat? The VoNV character just keeps them unconscious if it's really an issue.

There were no houserules in how I explained how the DM ran the game.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Haha, funny home. Last time I checked, if the party didn't slaughter defenseless opponents nothing negative happened to anyone. Also, if the target is unconscious or defenseless is it a threat? The VoNV character just keeps them unconscious if it's really an issue.

There were no houserules in how I explained how the DM ran the game.O RLY?


I thought I had replied earlier, but I guess I didn't.

I've played both a Monk and a Healer with Vow of Poverty, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Peace. In my experience it didn't negatively impact the party at all. I was the face of the party in both situations, I made it clear that I wanted to try the diplomatic solution whenever possible. I would regularly try to get the opponents to swear vows of non-interference. If they denied (a topic not covered by the text of the feat) the DM ruled it was as if they had broken the vow and my allies could act with impunity. If the accepted, there was never any need to kill them and we gained XP as normal for solving the encounter. Also, our DM decided that an ally killing a helpless foe only affected them as you did not willingly break your vow, the ally willingly killed a helpless foe knowing what your desires and code of conduct were. If I turned a blind eye to it and just let the ally haphazardly slaughter innocent helpless characters, then I would lose my vow. That was that particular DM's interpretation of vow, specifically about the parts where you lose it if you intentionally break it. Specifically, Vow of Non-Violence only applies to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids, so you can still deal real damage to Animals, Aberrations, Magical Beasts, Fey, Vermin, Outsiders, Elementals, Dragons, Giants, etc. You get the picture. It's not nearly as limiting as some seem to think. Just use your brain first and try to figure out a way of solving things before they go to blows. Even after they go to blows, figure out how to solve it with as little harm as possible. If you have Vow of Peace, you also get an aura of Calm Emotions (which, consequently, has it's Will Save DC boosted by 4 from your Vow of Non-Violence). The ONLY caveat to Vow of Peace is that you can't deal real damage or ability damage to any living creature (you can still punch the crap out of undead and constructs though). Depending on how much of a jerk your DM is, this can be taken to extremes. If your DM pulls the "you drank water from that stream? There were really tiny creatures in that water, you've lost your Vow of Peace" just leave the game, that DM is not your friend.Looks like houserules to me.

[skunk3]

Vow of Poverty blows, period. Not only does it have a feat tax, the end result isn't very good. On top of that you're using a base class that is well-known for being kinda crappy, so flavor-wise it could be a fun character to play, but mechanically it's gonna suck and shoehorn you into a lot of decisions that you don't really have any say in unless you want to break your vow, and adding other vows on top of it binds you up even more, and is also a real PITA for your party. I've looked into VoP quite a few times and for the life of me I cannot see why anyone would take it aside from theme/flavor. If you're optimizing even in the slightest it's just plain bad.

[emeraldstreak]

So I'd like to stick to as close to monk as possible, and I'll probably take the vow of poverty to signify his change of heart. He used to lust after wealth and power like a dragon, and now he's vowed to change his ways, so he shall take nothing more then he needs.

He needs his equipment if he's going to oppose evil. The greed of dragons isn't in the amount of gold they have, but in they way they hoard it and not really use it for anything.

[AnimeTheCat]

O RLY?

Looks like houserules to me.

So a DM making a determination about abiguous wording or about something not covered by the text is houserulling?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So a DM making a determination about abiguous wording or about something not covered by the text is houserulling?Exactly that, yes.

[lord_khaine]

So a DM making a determination about abiguous wording or about something not covered by the text is houserulling?

Its not even that ambigous. But that person just clearly have a very strong BoED bias.
But the feat clearly says "if you -leave- downed enemies to be killed" As long as you dont actively move away to let your allies out of your aura. Then your not leaving anyone. No house ruling in place.

Not that i think its a good idea to take that feat myself. But thats another thing.

Personally i would second the suggestion for Sacret Fist myself. Chose LG as your aligment and i think this is as good a paladin monk as you can make.
And you could even go VoP on one, since you got spellcasting to cover a lot of your bases.

[CharonsHelper]

From the sounds of it - you just want to play an effective monk style character.

See if your GM will let you play a Pathfinder Unchained Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained/). It actually does what you want effectively and without too much hassle.

It's far from OP (if nothing else - it's still a martial in a 3.x world) but you'll pull your weight.

[Lans]

What are the best ACFs for the monk? Invisible fist, martial monk, holy strike, maybe decisive strike, there is one that gives you concealment if your not in daylight. Did I miss any?

[Troacctid]

What are the best ACFs for the monk? Invisible fist, martial monk, holy strike, maybe decisive strike, there is one that gives you concealment if your not in daylight. Did I miss any?
Planar Monk to get resistance is also good. Fighting styles are good. The one that gives Lay on Hands is decent. The Stunning Fist variant that nauseates instead of stunning is fine. Kalashtar Monk if you're a Kalashtar. Phoenix Disciple at 3rd. Halfling Monk for skirmish. Standing Jump and Wall Walker are marginal improvements. Holy Strike is actually quite good if you plan on primarily using weapons, or if you plan on using unarmed strikes but already have a way to make them count as magical (such as Vow of Poverty).

Let's see, what else. Holy Monk and Raging Monk from Dragon #310. Illuminated Monk 6th level substitution from Dragon #349. Sacred Strike and Wholeness of Others from Dragon #346. Chaos Monk from Dragon #335.