Characters awareness of Negative Level

[WielderofFlame]

Simple: how can a character in game tell they have a negative level? Do they feel that something is wrong or do they have to be observed by someone who would know what to look for or what?

Mostly looking to help limit metagaming.

Thanks!

[legomaster00156]

Like HP, HD and negative levels are abstract concepts. I've seen negative levels likened to "killing someone gently", so your character would feel weaker, more sickly. If down to their last HD, they would likely know themselves to be on the brink of death.

[icefractal]

Given the effect of a negative level, they would feel noticeably weakened. If it was dealt by a hidden method and they haven't experienced negative levels before, they may think it was a curse or disease instead, but they would know something was wrong.

Once they started getting close to death from negative levels (past halfway), I'd say there were even more notable effects - feeling like they might pass out at random times, sudden sensations of dread for no reason, darkness encroaching at the edge of their vision, etc.

Also, I'd think that the moment of taking a negative level would be painful, or at least highly unpleasant.

[Zanos]

Having your life force sapped should definitely be something you can feel, although knowing exactly what it is might require some kind of knowledge check.

[Zaq]

It’s not a hard-coded rule in 3.5, but with certain exceptions (mostly related to mind control), I like 4e’s global rule that “creatures are aware of the effects on them.” It’s not perfect and you can find examples of when it’s not a great rule, but in the aggregate, I think it’s a rule that solves more problems than it causes. Especially with regard to keeping things running smoothly at the table.

[Covenant12]

Negative levels make you worse at everything. A beatstick should be able to swing a metal object back and forth and tell he's not 100%. If you are strict about metagaming, he likely can't tell the difference between 2 and 3 negative levels, but between 0 and 1 should be obvious.

No true RAW answer for 3.5, but I've always felt an adventurer is self-aware of his capabilities.

Also agree the inflicting of a negative level is significant and identifiable event, he isn't going to forget it until completely healed.

[Esprit15]

I tend to fluff it as a general feeling of illness that pervades everything you do. Your limbs ache, your body is heavy feeling, you’re short of breath, your mind is cloudy, you’re jumpy, and irritable, etc. These might be minor (small amount on a high level character) or severe (any amount on a low level character), but they affect everything about you. At maybe half your HD, you would probably just want to curl up and sleep rather than do anything. More than that and you actually feel like you’re dying.

[Tohsaka Rin]

"I feel thin, Gandalf. Like butter scraped over too much bread."

Tolkien to the rescue. :smallbiggrin:

[Quarian Rex]

I like 4e’s global rule that “creatures are aware of the effects on them.”

I've never heard of that (not a fan of 4e) but that is a great rule of thumb to softcode into a game. I've never been a fan of saying that a character is unaware of the effects on them, probably because the only time I've seen it brought up was when the DM was trying to railroad the game. In a world where supernatural events are actually real it is pretty natural to assume that the natives will have an awareness of such things that would border on genre-savviness. In a world where characters have a tangible soul it makes sense for them to understand what is happening when it is being drained/suppressed/whatever, even if only at an instinctive level.

That, and the assumption that the victim doesn't or can't understand what is happening to them adds a disproportionate amount of additional power to the offensive ability. There are entire feats/items/class features/etc. that are devoted to obfuscating spells and abilities so the target doesn't realize what is happening. Assuming that as a default completely devalues all such options.

Characters can be aware of what is happening without devaluing the effects either. A charm spell is still effective even if afterwards the victim realizes that they were being mind-tricked by the creepy guy who was somehow their best friend for a few days and then suddenly... wasn't. Can this be mitigated? Sure. If a charm caster takes his victim for an ale, listens to some jokes, and asks some opinions on world events (you know, putting up the minimum required to maintain a "friendship"), the charm-ee could be left thinking that the charming stranger was a swell guy, and it would be great to hang out the next time he passed through town. And those favors weren't too much trouble after all. If the charm caster just makes some demands, has them met, and is on his way, the charm-ee is left wondering why they thought the rude (and unreasonably demanding) jerk that they had never met before was (suddenly) their best friend (and then not). Once the spell wears off and they are allowed to consider that magic is a thing that exists in the world they get the not so sudden realization that 2+2=mindrape.

Same thing with energy drain. Feeling a slice of your soul being sucked out of you would probably be unmistakable. Saying that the character has no idea what happened, so don't bother looking for someone to cast Restoration on you, is a recipe for permanent negative levels that could have been in the characters power to prevent.

That seems to have turned into more of a rant that I was expecting. It is late/early. Me go now.

[Crake]

I've never heard of that (not a fan of 4e) but that is a great rule of thumb to softcode into a game. I've never been a fan of saying that a character is unaware of the effects on them, probably because the only time I've seen it brought up was when the DM was trying to railroad the game. In a world where supernatural events are actually real it is pretty natural to assume that the natives will have an awareness of such things that would border on genre-savviness. In a world where characters have a tangible soul it makes sense for them to understand what is happening when it is being drained/suppressed/whatever, even if only at an instinctive level.

That, and the assumption that the victim doesn't or can't understand what is happening to them adds a disproportionate amount of additional power to the offensive ability. There are entire feats/items/class features/etc. that are devoted to obfuscating spells and abilities so the target doesn't realize what is happening. Assuming that as a default completely devalues all such options.

Characters can be aware of what is happening without devaluing the effects either. A charm spell is still effective even if afterwards the victim realizes that they were being mind-tricked by the creepy guy who was somehow their best friend for a few days and then suddenly... wasn't. Can this be mitigated? Sure. If a charm caster takes his victim for an ale, listens to some jokes, and asks some opinions on world events (you know, putting up the minimum required to maintain a "friendship"), the charm-ee could be left thinking that the charming stranger was a swell guy, and it would be great to hang out the next time he passed through town. And those favors weren't too much trouble after all. If the charm caster just makes some demands, has them met, and is on his way, the charm-ee is left wondering why they thought the rude (and unreasonably demanding) jerk that they had never met before was (suddenly) their best friend (and then not). Once the spell wears off and they are allowed to consider that magic is a thing that exists in the world they get the not so sudden realization that 2+2=mindrape.

Same thing with energy drain. Feeling a slice of your soul being sucked out of you would probably be unmistakable. Saying that the character has no idea what happened, so don't bother looking for someone to cast Restoration on you, is a recipe for permanent negative levels that could have been in the characters power to prevent.

That seems to have turned into more of a rant that I was expecting. It is late/early. Me go now.

This is generally what knowledge checks and spellcraft checks are for. Imagine for a moment that a caster is charmed. If they are aware that they have been charmed, wouldn't they instantly attempt to dispel the effect? A normal person might instantly avoid contact with others, to avoid being influenced by the spell. Knowing about after the fact is a deduction, not just an instant awareness of the effect on you.

Negative levels can be similar. If you have no idea what a wight is, and you get hit by one, you'll probably feel weaker, sure, but you won't know WHY. As stated by someone else earlier, it could be a curse, it could be a disease, it could be a poison, who knows. Similarly, a succubus giving you a kiss, you'll feel weak at the knees, but you may quite easily just pass it off as the reaction of being kissed by a beautiful woman. Having knowledge (the planes) or knowledge (religion) is what you use to understand what's happening, or in the case of spells, spellcraft. If you lack these skills that are used to identify things, I don't think it's unreasonable to obfuscate the effects on a character.

[Mordaedil]

Doesn't that kinda make Charm spells pointless if the target is aware they are under a Charm effect?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I treat all concepts like this as shorthands for what the character knows or feels. Once the player knows that jump is DC15 the character knows that "it looks a little tricky, but without the distraction from those orcs I could make it easily". Similarly if the player was told that their character has negative levels the character will feel weaker, less up to certain tasks. They can't put abstract numbers on it like the player can, but they do have a good idea of what the effect does.

EDIT:Okay, unless you have a good reason not to do it like that, as in the case of a charm spell. Good point.

[Zaq]

Doesn't that kinda make Charm spells pointless if the target is aware they are under a Charm effect?

Well, yeah. That’s why I put in a statement about how the “creatures are aware of effects on them” rule usually shouldn’t apply in the case of mind control.

Even in 4e (where that’s an actual hard-coded rule), though, there are examples of powers that address this concern. “Instant Friends” is basically a 4eified Charm Person, and it has several clauses about how the target doesn’t realize or remember that the effect is on it (unless you try and fail to get the power to work against someone higher level than you, which honestly seems like a reasonable restriction to me). Or for another example, the Assassin class has an ability called “shrouds,” which basically lets them lay something like a curse on a target to let them do more damage against that target. (It’s problematic for other reasons, but we aren’t talking about that now.) It’s difficult to layer the shrouds multiple layers deep while in combat, but if anyone should be able to sneak up on someone, study them unseen for, oh, about three rounds, and then deliver a big attack with a lot of bonus damage, it should be an Assassin, right? Assassins can gain an ability that says that targets that you’re hidden from aren’t aware of your shrouds, allowing exactly that sort of setup without the universal knowledge rule interfering.

Specific beats general, and we can code specific exceptions into Charm-style effects (and other effects where deceiving the target about what’s happening to them is the whole point of the effect). Sure, it takes a tiny bit more forethought than laying down a one-and-done blanket rule, especially when applying said rule to an existing system rather than building a new system from the ground up with full knowledge of the rule’s intent, but I still say that the baseline assumption is valuable.

[Necroticplague]

Anything that impacts your performance should be noticeable. I like to give little nethack-style messages for such things. For negative levels, I typically go with a deep fatigue, since negative levels usually come from sapping your life forces.

[Quertus]

Level drain impacts everything: attack, saves, skill checks, spells. You can't possibly not notice.

Everyone had been tired before, and can tell that this isn't that. This is something far, far worse.

Any halfway competent adventure will have trained his protege / apprentice about the existence of "life drain" effects. Anyone seeing something that could cause such an effect should get an appropriate knowledge check. Anyone seeing such an effect happen should get an appropriate knowledge check. Anyone seeing someone under the effects of level drain should get an appropriate knowledge check and/or heal check.

In short, just metagame it. It's way easier than the alternative.

[Zanos]

Doesn't that kinda make Charm spells pointless if the target is aware they are under a Charm effect?
IIRC you interpret everything the caster does in the best possible light, so clearly he had a good reason to Charm you.

But yeah, spellcraft will tell you of a charm effect pretty explicitly.

[WielderofFlame]

This is generally what knowledge checks and spellcraft checks are for. Imagine for a moment that a caster is charmed. If they are aware that they have been charmed, wouldn't they instantly attempt to dispel the effect? A normal person might instantly avoid contact with others, to avoid being influenced by the spell. Knowing about after the fact is a deduction, not just an instant awareness of the effect on you.

Negative levels can be similar. If you have no idea what a wight is, and you get hit by one, you'll probably feel weaker, sure, but you won't know WHY. As stated by someone else earlier, it could be a curse, it could be a disease, it could be a poison, who knows. Similarly, a succubus giving you a kiss, you'll feel weak at the knees, but you may quite easily just pass it off as the reaction of being kissed by a beautiful woman. Having knowledge (the planes) or knowledge (religion) is what you use to understand what's happening, or in the case of spells, spellcraft. If you lack these skills that are used to identify things, I don't think it's unreasonable to obfuscate the effects on a character.

This was my thought exactly. I agree that once you gain a negative level a problem would be apparent. I think it makes sense for an applicable knowledge check to determine the exact problem, in this case a negative level. Thanks for the suggestion.