My problem with the Ancestral Guardian

[Waazraath]

Xanathar's barbarian subclass "path of the ancestral guardian" looks like great fun. Both mechanicly as in flavor, it's the most fun barbarian subclass in the book, for me. But I do have a problem with the 'special effects' that accompany the class.

At level three, when you rage, "spectral warriors appear" which start to hinder the first creature you hit with an attack. Whoa!

Ok, so we have this cliché low level barfight.
- a level 3 bear warrior gets punched in the face, he gets really angry, start hitting people, fighting commences.
- a level 3 frenzied barbarian gets punched in the face, he gets extremely angry, and starts punching people really fast.
- a level 3 ancestral guardian gets punhed in the face, he gets really angry, punches somebody; and a whole bunch of spectral ancestors appear, who start to harrass the unlucky guy that was punched. Panic commences. People run for their lives, jump out of the windows of the taverns. Someone falls to his knees to beg for mercy. A wizard who was drinking in the corner prepares a some high explosive violence, because a bunch of ghosts appear out of nowhere.

What I'm trying to say: a bunch of spectral people appearing out of nowhere should be bloody special in most settings. The only such creatures that are known to be like that are powerful undead. Which most normal folks only know from myth. Having something like this suddenly appear, is not in line with the rest of the game. As far as I can see.

If I remember well, Diablo 3 (it's some time ago I played it) had a similair effect for the barbarian. Which is fine, because the entire game is overloaded with huge, impressive, visual effects, as is logical for a computer game. The paladin had spectral cavelary that charged over the field, and at the higher levels the entire screen was often one big meteor shower / explosion whatever. But for me, the standard D&D world is not like that! Not even a high level setting like Forgotten Realms. If it has a place, it's at the highest levels, not at level 3.

Thoughts?

[JackPhoenix]

If the barbarian gets into murderous rage the moment someone punches him in a bar fight, you've got bigger problems than the spirits. Barbarian Rage isn't "I'm a bit angry right now", it's "OK, that's it, someone's gonna die". It's like if a wizard started punching people with fists charged with Shocking Grasp...he's willingly letting his inhibitions drop and turns a harmless brawl into life-or-death battle.

[Waazraath]

That's a Role Play decesion, isn't it? I mean, under the rule of cool, a barbarian should be able to get into a barfight, rage, get resistance, and knock out half a dozen of other brawlers, right? And there is nothing in the RAW that says that if a bbn start raging, it can't knock somebody unconsious when at 0hp.

[Unoriginal]

It's not really more supernatural-looking than a Wizard casting an illusion spell or a druid summoning a bunch of animals.

Heck, even not more supernatural-looking than what a 3rd level Monk can do.

[BobZan]

How rare are Ancestral Barbarians in the world? If it's not rare and barbarians rage on tavern brawls, I'm pretty sure tavern ppl got used to the spirits already.

[JackPhoenix]

That's a Role Play decesion, isn't it? I mean, under the rule of cool, a barbarian should be able to get into a barfight, rage, get resistance, and knock out half a dozen of other brawlers, right? And there is nothing in the RAW that says that if a bbn start raging, it can't knock somebody unconsious when at 0hp.

So can the wizard with Shocking Grasp or cleric with Inflict Wounds... or a fighter with a greatsword, for that matter. That doesn't mean any of that is appropriate in tavern brawl.

Barbarian is already suited to win a pub fight even without rage, he's got more hp than commoners, so he can take more hits, better AC even unarmored, so even less of those hits will hurt him in the first place, and he's got (most likely) better strength, so he can drop them down fast... Str 16, which is a standard for level 1 barbarians, is enough to knockout a commoner in one punch, while 14 or so HP means he can take 14 of their punches himself, if they even get through his AC in the first place.

[Vaz]

That's a Role Play decesion, isn't it? I mean, under the rule of cool, a barbarian should be able to get into a barfight, rage, get resistance, and knock out half a dozen of other brawlers, right? And there is nothing in the RAW that says that if a bbn start raging, it can't knock somebody unconsious when at 0hp.

No more than a Barbarian can have such an intimidating rage that he commands attention. No need to fluff Ancestral Guardians as having Undead appear. If people are also aware of Magic raising the Undead, then surely they're going to be capable of understanding that Raging prevents people from concentrating on casting spells? Or are we doing a schroedinger's scenario where only the most opportune scenario for your argument is being considered?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So refluff it. It's not like the third level ability in particular needs any special effects or supernatural-ness to function. Have the spirits be invisible, or barely-perceptible at low levels. Have it be pure martial skill. Ya got options.

[Dr. Cliché]

Could you not rule that only the barbarian and his target can actually see the spirits?

[Crgaston]

Could you not rule that only the barbarian and his target can actually see the spirits?

Good point. You could go even further and say that they aren’t necessarily visible to the target or even the barbarian himself. “Appear” can also mean “arrive” or “come into being,” and invisible spirits are totally a thing.

[Unoriginal]

Just make sure to have one of the brawlers says "It must be the work of an enemy Stand!"

[strangebloke]

Seriously though, you have a problem with this but not the storm herald?

Rage is meant to be a "Scream so loud you pierce the heavens" kinda deal. It's like, an emotional force so raw and primal that it baffles the understanding of even wizards. If you're using it in a barfight, everyone should seriously be pissing themselves. A raging barbarian can tear a guard limb from limb in just a few rounds.

And who is punching a level 3 Barbarian? The guy has 16 strength, scars, and probably has a fricking greataxe on his back.

And of course, you can refluff it.

[Tanarii]

That's a Role Play decesion, isn't it?Absolutely, deciding when to do stuff is the core of role playing. But actions should have appropriate consequences.

Also a player choice is what the primary primal ferocity of a Rage looks like, within the bounds of being clearly labeled "primal ferocity" by the PHB. It can't be some kind of zen-state or super focus or whatever without a DM house-rule changing it.

Spectral Warriors is a problem if you're in AL and you don't want your rage to be visible or extremely noticeable. Because RAW, the spirits appear. Changing that is a house-rule.

But if you're in a home game ask the DM ask your DM to house-rule they are invisible or only visible to the target, as described by others above. Or running a home game do it yourself.

As to how people react ... how are they likely to a highly visible & flashy 1st or 2nd level spell being cast? Color Spray, Fog Cloud, Silent Image of something flashy, Mirror Image all jump to mind, and that's without going into spells that go BooM!

[Crgaston]

Spectral Warriors is a problem if you're in AL and you don't want your rage to be visible or extremely noticeable. Because RAW, the spirits appear. Changing that is a house-rule.



"Become visible" is not the only possible definition of the word "appear." It is strongly implied, but not exclusively so.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thoughts? With some tough guys and gang members, if you mess with them you just messed with their whole gang/posse and you get a multiperson beat down laid upon thee.

This feature isn't too far from that social construct, it just uses spirits since this world has magic.

Lesson? Don't screw with an ancestral guardian unless you have a posse too.

[Tanarii]

"Become visible" is not the only possible definition of the word "appear." It is strongly implied, but not exclusively so.
Okay, you might be able to argue an edge-meaning. But trying to do so is likely to get you smacked with a DMG for attempting to rules-lawyer it.

Probably better to try the argument that "it's just refluffing" and hope your DM believes in a mechanical/fluff model for rules divide, and agrees with you on which side this part of the game rule falls.

[Unoriginal]

With some tough guys and gang members, if you mess with them you just messed with their whole gang/posse and you get a multiperson beat down laid upon thee.

This feature isn't too far from that social construct, it just uses spirits since this world has magic.

Lesson? Don't screw with an ancestral guardian unless you have a posse too.


This makes me think of a goblin Ancestral Guardian whose ancestral spirits go grab the arms of the opponent to hold them still, bully beatdown style.

[Ralanr]

Honestly I can see the issue (I also have slight issue that it doesn’t benefit the Barbarian directly until later. AFB). Thematically you’re basically having ghosts haunt a guy at level 3, when such things like ghosts are actually really scary (even though the spirits don’t harm people at level 3).

Arguably the elemental rager has the same “problem” of the effects being too epic/flashy at level 3 compared to the other Barbarian subclasses.

But that’s just thematically/fluffwise. Fluff can be twisted to anything.

[GlenSmash!]

To me it boils down to what your narrative definition of Rage is.

And for me that changes by subclass.


Totem Warriors channel a Primal Survival Instinct from the animal world.
Storm Heralds channel the Elemental Energy of a Storm.
Zealots channel a divine power.
Ancestral Guardians Channel the spirits of their ancestors
Berserkers and Battleragers dig deep within themselves and channel inner reserves.



Anger might be a part of channeling this Rage especially for Berserkers and Battleragers, but it doesn't have to be unless that's what you and your DM agree on.

I could see an Ancestral Guardian that doesn't get Angry but instead gets possessed by the spirits of his ancestors. Doing more damage because he swings with the force of all there spirits. Having Advantage on Strength Checks because he now literally has the strength of more than one man. Gaining Resistance as he gets their Health and Vitality.

And yes, some of them go and hinder his foes. That last part doesn't seem like a stretch if you frame it this way.

[Tanarii]

But that’s just thematically/fluffwise. Fluff can be twisted to anything.Usually "fluff" seems to be used to mean "stuff the rules don't describe how it works in-universe, so you can describe it however you want". Not "stuff RAW says it works a specific way in-universe, and so takes a house-rule to change".

But I can never be sure. Since it's not a defined / actual thing, just a way certain people want to divide up rules, it's one of those things that gets used a bunch of different ways.

[Ralanr]

Usually "fluff" seems to be used to mean "stuff the rules don't describe how it works in-universe, so you can describe it however you want". Not "stuff RAW says it works a specific way in-universe, and so takes a house-rule to change".

But I can never be sure. Since it's not a defined / actual thing, just a way certain people want to divide up rules, it's one of those things that gets used a bunch of different ways.

I see fluff as just the thematic parts of it. Like changing bear totem to be a whale or something.

[Dr. Cliché]

Anger might be a part of channeling this Rage especially for Berserkers and Battleragers, but it doesn't have to be

You're right, who says rage has to involve anger?

Besides the dictionary. :smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

You're right, who says rage has to involve anger?

Besides the dictionary. :smallbiggrin:

Battle Focus? Zen Serenity. All of those descriptors equally provide Adv on Str Checks and Saves, Bonus to damage with Str Attacks, and Resistance to damage, but prevent you from casting spells.

[Dr. Cliché]

Battle Focus? Zen Serenity. All of those descriptors equally provide Adv on Str Checks and Saves, Bonus to damage with Str Attacks, and Resistance to damage, but prevent you from casting spells.

Sorry but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. :smallconfused:

[Ralanr]

Battle Focus? Zen Serenity. All of those descriptors equally provide Adv on Str Checks and Saves, Bonus to damage with Str Attacks, and Resistance to damage, but prevent you from casting spells.

Idk, I feel Zen Serenity should still allow you to cast spells.

[Tanarii]

You're right, who says rage has to involve anger?

Besides the dictionary. :smallbiggrin:
The PHB says it's "primal ferocity" in the description. But yeah, the name of the feature does imply a certain level of losing one's temper a little bit. :smallbiggrin:

[strangebloke]

Battle Focus? Zen Serenity. All of those descriptors equally provide Adv on Str Checks and Saves, Bonus to damage with Str Attacks, and Resistance to damage, but prevent you from casting spells.

Ehhhh...

I can still use swordplay but can't remember my incantation? I can only benefit from the extra damage with STR-based attacks? I only get advantage on STR saves? Why not DEX? or WIS? or INT?

I get what you're saying, but there are better ways to simulate battle focus or zen. By design Rage is as closely tied to anger as is possible. Even a calm fury is kind of weird way to justify the mechanics.

I've seen someone justify it as hopeless desperation. That character's whole tribe had been slaughtered in front of her, and the ancestral spirits that showed up were her children, friends, and lover, showing up to aid her in her time of despair.

[Dr. Cliché]

The PHB says it's "primal ferocity" in the description. But yeah, the name of the feature does imply a certain level of losing one's temper a little bit. :smallbiggrin:

The thing is, I don't mind people trying to refluff it a bit to better suit their characters. What I find odd is the idea that anger isn't the default form of rage.


Ehhhh...

I can still use swordplay but can't remember my incantation? I can only benefit from the extra damage with STR-based attacks? I only get advantage on STR saves? Why not DEX? or WIS? or INT?

I get what you're saying, but there are better ways to simulate battle focus or zen. By design Rage is as closely tied to anger as is possible. Even a calm fury is kind of weird way to justify the mechanics.

I've seen someone justify it as hopeless desperation. That character's whole tribe had been slaughtered in front of her, and the ancestral spirits that showed up were her children, friends, and lover, showing up to aid her in her time of despair.

It would certainly be weird if an ability called 'Battle Focus' actually prevented you from concentrating in battle. :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

Ehhhh...

I can still use swordplay but can't remember my incantation? I can only benefit from the extra damage with STR-based attacks? I only get advantage on STR saves? Why not DEX? or WIS? or INT?

I get what you're saying, but there are better ways to simulate battle focus or zen. By design Rage is as closely tied to anger as is possible. Even a calm fury is kind of weird way to justify the mechanics.

I've seen someone justify it as hopeless desperation. That character's whole tribe had been slaughtered in front of her, and the ancestral spirits that showed up were her children, friends, and lover, showing up to aid her in her time of despair.
I don't think having depression is something that makes you hit harder.

[Ralanr]

I don't think having depression is something that makes you hit harder.

Well the anger that can come from depression helps.

Depression is weird.

[some guy]

Totem barbarians have the option to " gain minor physical attributes that are reminiscent of [their] totem spirit". This could lead them being mistaken for lycanthropes. I'd say lycanthropes are on the same threat level as spectral warriors for common folk.

[strangebloke]

I don't think having depression is something that makes you hit harder.

despair =/= depression.
desperation =/= depression.

Despair is to give up hope, and it's mostly external. If you despair of getting a job, and then you get one, the despair is gone. Desperation is something different, but it can be born of despair. "I need to do this thing I recognize as hopeless, RIGHT NOW." A person who despairs of surviving a fight might just push himself that much harder. Or he might give up. For the character in question it was definitely the former. She despaired of saving her last living child who had been taken by the BBeG, but that only spurred her to feats of ludicrous strength and endurance. You know, like those mothers you hear about who lift cars to get at their kids.

Depression, in my experience, is a cloud you can't get out from under where everything is muted, dreary, and unsatisfying.

Obviously these things tend to go hand in hand. But I wasn't casting depression as a superpower. I've been there.

[GlenSmash!]

a bunch of spectral people appearing out of nowhere should be bloody special in most settings. The only such creatures that are known to be like that are powerful undead. Which most normal folks only know from myth. Having something like this suddenly appear, is not in line with the rest of the game. As far as I can see.


I think this will vary by setting.

I'm watching the latest Berserk anime right now so I'll use this as an example. At the start of the series, there are definitely Demons and Spirits around like Zodd or the other Apostles, but since they are somewhat rare and tend to slaughter everything that sees their demonic form, they mostly are considered myths. After the Tower of conviction, such phenomena are far more widespread. No one really considered them wives tales any more. Ghosts would still be frightening to a common man, but no longer a surprise.

Or let me put it this way. Are ghosts being summoned buy a level 3 Barbarian more or less surprising than a level 1 Wizard throwing Lighting and Fire from his hands? Or even a Dragonborn walking into a tavern? It will depend on which is more common in the setting.

[Vaz]

despair =/= depression.
desperation =/= depression.

Despair is to give up hope, and it's mostly external. If you despair of getting a job, and then you get one, the despair is gone. Desperation is something different, but it can be born of despair. "I need to do this thing I recognize as hopeless, RIGHT NOW." A person who despairs of surviving a fight might just push himself that much harder. Or he might give up. For the character in question it was definitely the former. She despaired of saving her last living child who had been taken by the BBeG, but that only spurred her to feats of ludicrous strength and endurance. You know, like those mothers you hear about who lift cars to get at their kids.

Depression, in my experience, is a cloud you can't get out from under where everything is muted, dreary, and unsatisfying.

Obviously these things tend to go hand in hand. But I wasn't casting depression as a superpower. I've been there.

Go speak to a psychiatrist if you want to talk that **** out. Not going to lie, I don't really care, and couldn't help even if I wanted to.

Meanwhile, being depressed doesn't make you hit harder, in the same way as singlemindedly focusing on your battle focus or your inner peace doesn't prevent you from casting spells. Or does it? Because that's the backstory you're going with, and it's all ****ing voodoo.

Point is fluff is what you make of it. The dude who wrote the Adv on Str ch/sv, bonus str damage, and inability to cast spells went with Anger, and put it, and a lot of other mechanics on a chassis that was sold as stupid man hits with big stick.

All you are doing when you adopt some mechanics, is using those mechanics to represents your characters abilities. If one set of class abilities don't match what your characters abilities to be, then multiclass. Or rather than fluffing a Kensei's Sharpen the Blade, fluff it is a goddamn lightsaber. Go a little bit further if you want to, and say that it's not just magic, but Psychic or whatever.

[Waazraath]

No more than a Barbarian can have such an intimidating rage that he commands attention. No need to fluff Ancestral Guardians as having Undead appear. If people are also aware of Magic raising the Undead, then surely they're going to be capable of understanding that Raging prevents people from concentrating on casting spells? Or are we doing a schroedinger's scenario where only the most opportune scenario for your argument is being considered?

Eh... it's not me who fluffs the Ancestral Guardians as undead; the fluff in the book describes spectral warriors, being dead ancestors, and besides the only spectral warriors that appear in the MM (you know, RAW and all that) are undead. Please keep your needlessly antagonistic comments to yourself, or take 'em elsewhere..

As for the other comments:
- yes, refluffing is an option of course. Having them to be invisible for everybody but the bbn and the target is a nice suggestion.
- yes, there are other abilities that are are obvioursly magical. But for me (and I understand this differs from person to person and setting to setting) most are less so a problem. Summoning (as was mentioned) is later level; flashy evocation spells are that: spells. Somebody casts a spell, and some (minor) damage happens (at low level in any case). That's more or less to be expected in a world with wizards. Ymmv, but for me that's less impressive then a bunch of spirits showing up from out of nowhere, without anybody casting, and joining a fray. But in a setting where low level bards and wizards are making money in taverns with illusions, the spirits will be less impressive, truth.
- good to see that some people feel the same.
- thnx for the contributions.

[strangebloke]

Go speak to a psychiatrist if you want to talk that **** out. Not going to lie, I don't really care, and couldn't help even if I wanted to.

Meanwhile, being depressed doesn't make you hit harder, in the same way as singlemindedly focusing on your battle focus or your inner peace doesn't prevent you from casting spells. Or does it? Because that's the backstory you're going with, and it's all ****ing voodoo.

Point is fluff is what you make of it. The dude who wrote the Adv on Str ch/sv, bonus str damage, and inability to cast spells went with Anger, and put it, and a lot of other mechanics on a chassis that was sold as stupid man hits with big stick.

All you are doing when you adopt some mechanics, is using those mechanics to represents your characters abilities. If one set of class abilities don't match what your characters abilities to be, then multiclass. Or rather than fluffing a Kensei's Sharpen the Blade, fluff it is a goddamn lightsaber. Go a little bit further if you want to, and say that it's not just magic, but Psychic or whatever.

You read my post as talking about depression, and I inferred that this had offended you, so I clarified. I wasn't trying to start a pity party.

Fluff can broadly be defined as 'anything that isn't a rule,' and yes, you can reinterpret that. But if you change the fluff too much, you'll create weird rule interactions that don't make sense. "Not being able to cast while serene" is a weird rules interaction. I think that "Desperation driving you to extraordinary feats of strength" is less weird, but then, YMMV.

Stay Classy

[JackPhoenix]

Eh... it's not me who fluffs the Ancestral Guardians as undead; the fluff in the book describes spectral warriors, being dead ancestors, and besides the only spectral warriors that appear in the MM (you know, RAW and all that) are undead. Please keep your needlessly antagonistic comments to yourself, or take 'em elsewhere..


That's the problem: you're looking into wrong book. Don't look into MM, but into PHB: Spirit Guardians, illusions, arguably Spiritual Weapon... there are your spectral warriors.

[Beelzebubba]

Or let me put it this way. Are ghosts being summoned buy a level 3 Barbarian more or less surprising than a level 1 Wizard throwing Lighting and Fire from his hands? Or even a Dragonborn walking into a tavern? It will depend on which is more common in the setting.

Intelligent familiars, Unseen Servant, Mage Hand, and all sorts of other things that are easily conflated with spirits are all available to 1st level characters. D&D is a high-fantasy, high-magic setting by default. Even the idea of an 'ignorant backwoods' doesn't work when forests are infested with Pixies, Sprites, and the like. The idea that these things would utterly blow people away is kinda silly - or the result of a 'low magic' home brew.

If it were a low-magic home brew, I'd imagine the DM would dissuade that archetype to begin with, or inform them that they will be a target when they show themselves.

The idea that a primarily melee character can't have something cool and magical is also pretty grognard-ey. This isn't Conan's Cimmeria - magic isn't subtle and strange and secretive. It has all the subtlety of a Thunderwave.

If anything, a Barbarian from that tribe would be a heated topic of conversation throughout every tavern. That's the stuff that drunk people love to brag about, openly doubt, theorize about, etcetera. If anything, a setting with consistency and verisimilitude would mean that Barbarian walking into a bar would be granted as wide a berth as a group of Hell's Angels. IMO and all that.

[NOMster]

I could see an Ancestral Guardian that doesn't get Angry but instead gets possessed by the spirits of his ancestors. Doing more damage because he swings with the force of all there spirits. Having Advantage on Strength Checks because he now literally has the strength of more than one man. Gaining Resistance as he gets their Health and Vitality.

And yes, some of them go and hinder his foes. That last part doesn't seem like a stretch if you frame it this way.


Man I was really into the AG before. Now I just wish this is what the path actually did.

[Aett_Thorn]

Thread necro, ahoy!

[NOMster]

Shoot I'm sorry. I thought it said last month

[Aett_Thorn]

Shoot I'm sorry. I thought it said last month

Not a huge problem, since you didn't really quote anyone or make any sort of claim that people were wrong based on information that has come out since last year or anything. I just wanted people that might have responded to know. Cheers!

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread Necromancy is generally prohibited on this Forum.