What spells would be Black Magic ?

[Grim Reader]

I was wondering... what kind of spells would be considered Black Magic based on effect ?

I mean, everything with [Evil] obviously, but based on effect which spells would be on the list of No! ?

I am thinking things that overrule a persons sanctity of mind, primarily exist to cause pain, and raising undead. Charm Person, Inflicts, Animate Dead etc?

[Mordaedil]

All arcane spells are by definition black magic. It's a meaningless denotion for D&D mostly, but in the past, a lot of people separated necromancy into black, grey and white necromancy.

[Jormengand]

This depends on your ethics and the specification of the setting. For example, if there's no real reason why forcing someone's body to serve you after death is evil (3.5's animate with the spirit spell was not just good, but special-super-awesome-good, and forces someone's body to serve you) then it might not make the cut. It depends a lot on whether you want spells which actually do awful things (like fireball roasting the targets alive and inflicting horrifying collateral damage) or "Icky" spells like animate dead.

[Grim Reader]

Well, in my case I am building a world where the Inquisition has a heavy presence. They are charged with keeping supernatural nasties away, such as undead, devils, demons, anything that possesses people, etc. Individual Inquisitors have no problem working with Arcane casters, its a good survival strategy (There is a certain middle-of-the-food-chain-blues for humans, and the inquisition has terrible rates of attrition).

So I am thinking, what kind of spells is a christian-faith based Inquisition going to have a problem with? They are organized, well acquainted with Arcane magic, have a history, and at some point they will have sat down and made a list of spells that are a no-no.

(And from a DMing point of view, I am going to put a few spells that can be problems on the list. Got there as political compromises, you know:) Better than banning them, just adding a little consequence. )

I am thinking: Spells that interfere with the sanctity of mind. Charm person, major mind-reading etc. Spells that cause Undead, because undead are going to be hostile abominations that kill their friends to the Inquisition. Some spells that mess with extra dimensions, because of campaign setting.

And finally and most difficult: Spells whose purpose in the main seem evil or unethical. This does not include fireball, because it is a "tool" spell. It can kill people, or undead, or sterilize a plague pit, or clear off undergrowth ec. It does include the Inflict line which seem only useful to harm living things or heal undead.

[Darth Ultron]

And finally and most difficult: Spells whose purpose in the main seem evil or unethical. This does not include fireball, because it is a "tool" spell. It can kill people, or undead, or sterilize a plague pit, or clear off undergrowth ec. It does include the Inflict line which seem only useful to harm living things or heal undead.

But just about all spells are ''tool'' spells...even a lot of the EVIL ones.

How is inflict wounds ''wrong'', but ''fireball'' is ''right''?

Is it really so ''wrong'' to charm someone? Like if someone is in a rage, is it wrong to use a charm type spell to calm them down?

Is hold person wrong as it violates the sanctity of the body?

[Jormengand]

christian-faith based

This may not be a good forum to ask questions about organisations based on a real-world religion.

[Grim Reader]

This may not be a good forum to ask questions about organisations based on a real-world religion.

Its mostly to indicate which ethical framework the organisation is based on.


But just about all spells are ''tool'' spells...even a lot of the EVIL ones.

How is inflict wounds ''wrong'', but ''fireball'' is ''right''?

Is it really so ''wrong'' to charm someone? Like if someone is in a rage, is it wrong to use a charm type spell to calm them down?

Is hold person wrong as it violates the sanctity of the body?

This is part of what makes it complicated. As far as I can see, Hold Person is really analogous to restraints or handcuffs, things which may be considered necessary at times but are accepted. Charm Person has no such analogy. The Inflict line does not really have any kind of normal use outside of hurting living things or healing udead. I think such uses would be very corner case. Fireball on the other hand, has a large number of uses outside of combat, and from a worlbuilding perspective may not primarily be seen as a combat spell.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

That depends, is there only black magic and white magic?

[Grim Reader]

Generally, the Inquisition is going to be mostly concerned with what is black magic. White magic is generally going to be healing and cure spells, as well as protection from Evil etc.

It is probably worth noting that this is not going to be an Inquisition identical to our historical one. The actual presence of undead, demons, devils aberrations, supernatural apex predators etc, leads to a rather enormous shift of focus.

[Sheogoroth]

BOVD has some spells that explicitly torture people and another one that makes people addicted to drugs.
I guess if you want to divy it up into an inherently good and evil sort of Arthurian split, anything that is cast with the intent to cause pain, control the mind, or create some kind of abomination would be evil. It would be easier to create “Laws of Magic” general rules of what can be done with magic and everything outside of that is considered evil, with certain spells spells(I’m looking at you, Symbol of Pain) being always evil.

[Malroth]

Have an Insane elder thing that should not be randomly decide what spells he likes and doesn't like every morning and randomly decide if he's enforcing this preference today or not. This will give you pretty much the same results.

[Grim Reader]

I am not sure my question is coming through here.

Which spells would an independent observer be likely to consider to have the greatest potential for breaking the social contract, or mostly harmful uses?

Its not so much making up laws of magic as an enforcement organization enumerating stuff they won't stand for.

[Jormengand]

I am not sure my question is coming through here.

Which spells would an independent observer be likely to consider to have the greatest potential for breaking the social contract, or mostly harmful uses?

If that independent observer were mostly rational, they would be looking at damaging evocations and charm/compulsion enchantments more than they would be looking at traditionally "Eeeevilll~~~" spells like animate dead. If they were mostly visceral in their decisions, they would make the opposite decision. That's sorta the problem.

[Grim Reader]

If that independent observer were mostly rational, they would be looking at damaging evocations and charm/compulsion enchantments more than they would be looking at traditionally "Eeeevilll~~~" spells like animate dead. If they were mostly visceral in their decisions, they would make the opposite decision. That's sorta the problem.

Rational but not really opposed to explosions:)

While damage-causing evocations can do a great deal of harm in the wrong hands, so can a catapult. Also, the Inquisitors often work with arcane casters on challenging situations. There should be little incentive to list some of the more useful tools as forbidden. (Sterilizing things are very useful in the campaign).

Undead, on the other hand will be among the more prolific opposition, and Inquisitors won't really get in contact with any non-hostile undead. Given their general ickiness the leap to assuming they are to be abominated is short.

In general, they will be looking at spells that raise red flags either rationally or viscerally.

Obviously, anything which is [Evil] or explicitly called out as evil will trigger a Detect Evil. But there are spells that are skewy ethically even without that tag. The bribes and seductions of the Abyss can be subtle.

[Psyren]

How do you define "black magic?" I mean, in Final Fantasy, "black" just means "arcane."

[Malimar]

Any [evil] spell (yes, even the people like to claim are supposedly "harmless" -- every [evil] spell calls upon dark forces and taints the user and probably the vicinity). Probably any [chaotic] spell, if we're talking social contract. Any spell that violates any person's autonomy (so, charms and compulsions and so on).

Probably spells that can only be used to cause damage in combat should be regulated but not necessarily banned (depending on how zealous you want the inquisitors to get), much like a certain class of object that is the source of much political angst in the real world and is thus verboten to discuss.


How do you define "black magic?" I mean, in Final Fantasy, "black" just means "arcane."
My sense was that black magic damages things and white magic heals things and that's the only difference. But then, I only ever played the first 6 FFs, they might have polished the lore a bit since then.

[Eldariel]

How do you define "black magic?" I mean, in Final Fantasy, "black" just means "arcane."

This is the big one. Is it offensive magic? Magic dealing with death? Non-divine magic? Harmful magic? Immoral magic? The term has approximately a thousand definitions and it really depends on what you want to do with it.

[Jormengand]

The spells bleed, infernal healing, aphasia, charm person, delusional pride, memory lapse, cause fear, interrogation, repair undead, sculpt corpse, blood money, poisoned egg, polypurpose panacea, arrow eruption, blood transcription, compulsive liar, hideous laughter, unnatural lust, ghostly disguise, blindness/deafness, bloodbath... okay, not gonna lie, most second-level necromancy spells... adhesive blood, disfiguring touch... these seem to be the kinds of spells you're looking for? Spells which either intrude on the target's mind, mess around with blood or undead, or are just kinda nasty.

[Anymage]

Remember that plenty of real world places did - and some still do - consider homosexuality to be a deep moral failing. I say this not to discuss the specifics of any of those places, so much as to highlight that what an organization considers morally wrong often boils down to "it makes the wrong people feel icky".

Necromancy, spells with an Evil tag, and spells that deal with negative energy and/or lower planar forces are a good starting place for spells that make people feel icky. If you want to have a more involved discussion as to the morality of every spell in the spell list from a strict consequentialist perspective, best of luck trying to have an alignment debate that doesn't fall apart under needless nitpicking.

[Zanos]

It depends on your own settings metaphysics, and what Black Magic actually is.

Does using Black Magic actually corrupt your soul or mind in some supernatural way, or are the spells just nasty and nasty people are drawn to use them?

Are they learned by making deals with dark powers?

What inherent in such spells makes them corrupting?

Does it just get a bad rap?

[Arkhios]

I would say it's fairly simple to determine:

Black Magic destroys and corrupts.
White Magic restores and protects.

Anything that does neither is Neutral or "Grey" Magic.

Obviously this way of determining which is which has nothing to do with the schools of magic, because there are necromancy spells that destroy life and necromancy spells that restore life.

Likewise, there are some exceptions as well:
Positive Energy is White Magic just as Negative Energy is Black Magic, because even though Positive Energy can harm or destroy undead creatures it's (mostly*) harmless to living things, and vice versa for Negative Energy.


*Staying too long in the Positive Energy plane can cause anyone to explode, but that's the only case when Positive Energy is harmful for the living.

[Red Fel]

Honestly, I'd go along with the arcane/divine divide.

Look, if this is an Inquisition - setting aside any real-world comparisons - it's probably affiliated with a powerful organization, such as a religious organization, right? Unless this organization in inherently, purely altruistic and incorruptible, there will be abuses of power. And the easiest way to handle those is through the persecution of the other. Arcane magic is the other - divine casters draw their power from the gods, and their conduct is therefore subject to divine mandate. But arcane casters pervert nature by drawing power without the gods' consent. That can only cause problems in the long run.

Go with a the reductio ad absurdum argument. Even spells which are not harmful - spells which are actually helpful - draw people away from the Church. They make people turn their backs on the gods. Unacceptable! Magic that would cause people to turn against the gods is blasphemous, it is black magic!

You know. Unless your Inquisition is completely, utterly Good Guys, there was probably somebody somewhere who came up with this line. Because let's be completely honest, it's an arbitrary divide, so the line falls pretty much wherever. And if the person drawing the line is part of the Inquisition, the line will be drawn in a manner convenient to the Inquisition.

[Vhaidara]

Likewise, there are some exceptions as well:
Positive Energy is White Magic just as Negative Energy is Black Magic, because even though Positive Energy can harm or destroy undead creatures it's harmless to living things, and vice versa for Negative Energy.

The Positive Energy Plane's tendency to make people explode disagrees with it being harmless to living things.

[Arkhios]

The Positive Energy Plane's tendency to make people explode disagrees with it being harmless to living things.

Noted. Although, that is pretty much the only situation when Positive Energy can be harmful even for a living creature.

[grarrrg]

Just look at an existing magic setting and see how they do things. Then steal and tweak as needed.

*spins wheel o' inspiration*

Dresden Files has 7 Laws of Magic that carry the death penalty if broken:
1 Murder
2 Shapeshifting others
3 Invading another mind
4 Dominating another mind
5 Necromancy
6 Time travel
7 Contacting Outsiders

Seems like a solid enough place to start.
1 Obviously since D&D is heavy on combat most/some general 'damage' spells should still be allowed, but anything approaching 'instant death' should be a firm NO.
2 Could upgrade this to "no shapeshifting period" if desired
3 & 4 Good enough. Note that simple communication is fine.
5 Good enough. Note there is a loophole regarding 'non-human' undead being borderline OK. Probably a straight ban on all undead would fit best
6 There isn't a ton of this in D&D to begin with so, whatever
7 Maybe contacting non-good-aligned outsiders is banned, but going full Angel Summoner would be OK?

[Mordaedil]

Alright, so if you want to segregate spells as outlined, the first thing that will happen is that some broad strokes are going to be made.

First of all, they are going to label everything necromancy, enchantment, illusion and conjuration as "black magic". Reasoning being that too many spells in these schools deal with risky elements. Raising of the dead, decaying of flesh, deception, tricking the mind and making deals with devils or enslaving celestial beings to perform duties for you. They can trust arcane casters as much as they want, these are domains they will perceive as untrusted by anyone not of the church. Furthermore, give a good lookover for transmutation and you'll find several spells that also "breaks" the divide, but isn't wide enough to bar the entire school. Abjuration, divination are mostly fine, but consider divination spells that expose the hypocricy of the church as labeled "black".

When it comes to teleportation, you are probably wondering if you should make an exception for it. I would suggest either making it a transmutation spell or have it be black for "temptation of falling into consorting with demons".

You could also give evocation a once-over.

[Florian]

I think Horror Adventures and Blood of the Coven are actually good sources to figure this out. Hexes and anything with the Evil, Curse or Pain descriptor seems to be "black" magic, archetypes that are build around that concept are generally provided a means to Remove Curse and Break Enchantment.

[Malroth]

If this is an Inquisition run Theoracy then you should go the opposite approach. Charm Suggestion and Dominate spells are the Purview of the clergy since they help you hear the word of "God" as would Detect Lies, Detect Thought, Animate Dead, Disguise, self Glibness, Symbol of Pain and perhaps the Mother Cyst line if you really feared Heresey. Protection from () spells, Mind blank, Nondetection, Freedom of Movement, Contact other Plane spells would be the "Black" magic since they prevent the "Holy" spells the church uses to run the nation.

[ngilop]

typically 'black magic' is messing 'round with souls and curses.