Did I make the right call: Paladin/Fighter/Dwarven Defender (3.5)?

[Arkhios]

Here's the deal.

A friend of mine had this idea to run through every Pathfinder Adventure Path in chronological order, starting with The Rise of the Runelords.
I said to him that I would be willing to run it instead of him, because I have played this adventure once before, albeit with the Anniversary Edition (the Pathfinder version of it).
He insisted that he'd run it, so I let it be. However, since his group of players would've been one short had I not joined them, and they pretty much asked me to be there, so how could I say no?

So, at first we discussed with the DM that maybe I should play a "retard" character to better allow doing decisions that might not be the most effective towards the adventure's goal, but I couldn't justify that decision. I mean, I know how to play "stupid" and sometimes it's even fun. However, after learning what the other players were going to play, I figured someone had to play a dedicated "meatshield" a.k.a. tank - a role I know very well as I've been there plenty of times. At first I thought that a barbarian with lots of hit points would be perfect for that, but then I realized that a retard barbarian who failed his saving throws in the wrong situation would be a loose cannon that could do serious harm to rest of the group, so I chose to drop that idea.

After a few preliminary builds for a different kind of character, I ended up trying to create "the perfect" Dwarven Defender. The prestige class has always intrigued me and I love playing dwarves almost as much as I love playing humans. If only Dwarven Defenders could be humans I might've made a human instead. Anyway, I rolled pretty well, and I thought that maybe I'd be the most useful to the party as one who would become immune to fear early on, and would survive more saves than most, so I decided I'd make something not entirely optimal for a dwarf: A Paladin.

However, weighing in the 3.5 Paladin features (I've never played a Paladin before Pathfinder and I was kinda "shocked" how crappy Smite Evil actually was), I figured that I'd just take 3 levels in paladin, and then 4 levels in Fighter before I'd begin to take Dwarven Defender levels.

I guess I'm asking whether I made the right call. I mean, four levels in fighter is required for taking Weapon Specialization eventually and I don't like the idea of being able to cast so few spells as a paladin can. It would basically be better if I didn't at all. Also, because I find it odd that a dwarf would be riding a horse and the DM already said no to the idea to have something more "bad-ass" for a dwarf, like a boar or the like, Special Mount class feature would also go to waste. Likewise, Remove Disease as once per week seems just lame to me...

Currently at 4th level, my character's stats (racials and 4th-level increase (+1 str) included) are as follows if you're interested:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 13
Levels: Paladin 3/Fighter 1
Feats: Dodge, Toughness, Endurance (all of which are required for Dwarven Defender, along with BAB +7 at minimum).

I'm also wondering which feats I should take next, and if I should take weapon focus/specialization, when? And whether I should increase Charisma to 14 (or further) or keep increasing strength or constitution instead?

We are allowed to use Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, and Deities and Demigods (or whatever it was called). As we're allowed to use UA variants, I chose the paladin variant that gave me Favored Enemy (I chose Giants because I know it's going to be needed in the campaign later, and because it's fitting for a dwarf to hate giants)

[Troacctid]

Dwarven Defender is highly underpowered. It forces you to take some of the weakest feats in the PHB, and then pays you off with a weaksauce defensive ability a couple times a day. The class is garbo, IMO. I'd never take it.

You have access to XPH, so what I would take instead is War Mind. Now there's a real tank class. Gives you basically the same abilities as Dwarven Defender, but with more daily uses, no restriction on movement, and some extra stuff on top of it, like the ability to boost your Will saves or grapple checks as an immediate action, or gain temporary hit points, or heal yourself, or get energy resistance, etc. And it's easier to get in.

[Arkhios]

Dwarven Defender is highly underpowered. It forces you to take some of the weakest feats in the PHB, and then pays you off with a weaksauce defensive ability a couple times a day. The class is garbo, IMO. I'd never take it.

You have access to XPH, so what I would take instead is War Mind. Now there's a real tank class. Gives you basically the same abilities as Dwarven Defender, but with more daily uses, no restriction on movement, and some extra stuff on top of it, like the ability to boost your Will saves or grapple checks as an immediate action, or gain temporary hit points, or heal yourself, or get energy resistance, etc. And it's easier to get in.

Soldier of Light is also pretty decent.

Hmm. Would my character's stats be worth going War Mind then? I mean, I know without asking that I can't change them, and I probably can't change the feats (or skills for that matter) either.

[Acanous]

when playing any melee spot in 3.5, I always recommend Crusader from the book of nine swords. It's got a lot of what you'd want from a paladin, but more beef! And you get martial manoeuvres. From lv 1, so you have a lot more utility in combat than the standard oaf.

Also it opens up Ruby Knight Vindicator, which is like an incantatrix but melee.

[Arkhios]

when playing any melee spot in 3.5, I always recommend Crusader from the book of nine swords. It's got a lot of what you'd want from a paladin, but more beef! And you get martial manoeuvres. From lv 1, so you have a lot more utility in combat than the standard oaf.

Also it opens up Ruby Knight Vindicator, which is like an incantatrix but melee.

Welp, that's not helpful for me, as I already listed the books that are available, and book of nine swords isn't one of them.

[Troacctid]

Hmm. Would my character's stats be worth going War Mind then? I mean, I know without asking that I can't change them, and I probably can't change the feats (or skills for that matter) either.
You don't need much Wisdom for it to be better than Dwarven Defender. I'd say if you can get the Knowledge (Psionics) ranks, you should go for it. You'll want a Wisdom-booster at some point in order to use higher-level powers, but that shouldn't be too hard.

[Arkhios]

You don't need much Wisdom for it to be better than Dwarven Defender. I'd say if you can get the Knowledge (Psionics) ranks, you should go for it. You'll want a Wisdom-booster at some point in order to use higher-level powers, but that shouldn't be too hard.

As I'm looking at it, it would also require for me to take Wild Talent feat, because I would need "a power point reserve of at least 1 power point", which I don't have otherwise.

And then there's the question whether I can find another war mind to instruct my character. Last time I checked, my DM isn't going to handwave these requirements.

Beyond that, assuming that I can find a war mind instructor, our group's wizard is quite likely going to take magic item creation feats, so a +2 wisdom item shouldn't be a problem.

Edit: actually, I might have to forget War Mind, because Knowledge (psionics) is a cross-class skill for my character so I wouldn't be able to get 8 ranks until 13th level. At which point, the campaign is almost over.

[Troacctid]

As I'm looking at it, it would also require for me to take Wild Talent feat, because I would need "a power point reserve of at least 1 power point", which I don't have otherwise.

And then there's the question whether I can find another war mind to instruct my character. Last time I checked, my DM isn't going to handwave these requirements.
Well, if your game doesn't use multiclass penalties, you could multiclass into a psionic class—that would get you the PP as well as Knowledge (Psionics) as a class skill. If multiclass penalties are in play, then that 3rd level of Paladin makes it awkward.

You don't need instruction by another war mind if you have access to Talariic texts or belong to an organization that has access to Talariic texts. Perhaps there is some scholarly organization that you could join.

If you end up not being able to do War Mind, you could try Horizon Walker or Soldier of Light.

[Arkhios]

Well, if your game doesn't use multiclass penalties, you could multiclass into a psionic class—that would get you the PP as well as Knowledge (Psionics) as a class skill. If multiclass penalties are in play, then that 3rd level of Paladin makes it awkward.

You don't need instruction by another war mind if you have access to Talariic texts or belong to an organization that has access to Talariic texts. Perhaps there is some scholarly organization that you could join.

If you end up not being able to do War Mind, you could try Horizon Walker or Soldier of Light.

We are playing this game as close to RAW as possible, due to nostalgic reasons, so XP penalties are used as normal. Soldier of Light is out of question entirely because it's tied to a specific mythology that doesn't exist in the setting (Golarion).

Horizon Walker I hadn't thought about yet, but it could be interesting. Although, if I won't continue with Dwarven Defender, I have a feeling that it might be best if I just stick with Fighter from now on.

[Eldariel]

You sadly managed to pick 3 of the worst classes in the sources. Dwarven Defender is quite weak. Defensive stance is almost unusable outside chokepoints and even there, anything with more reach than you can attack you with impunity while you have no way of hitting back. Mobile Defense helps a bit but that's ECL 15 earliest. Yeah, the level where Wizards are binding Pit Fiends and forcing them into obedience. All the class gives you is Uncanny Dodge, which is nice but much easier to get through Barbarian or Rogue, and the scaling AC bonus, which is decent, but not worth class levels (if you want AC, be a spellcaster. Fighter isn't worth playing in core 3.5 - weapon specialization is a weak feat and there aren't enough good feats overall to vindicate Fighter over the alternatives. Getting +1 to hit and +4 to damage with one weapon over others pales in comparison to Rage, spells, mounted charge, or any such. Barbarian is generally just better at the same job and Dwarven Barbarian is actually not bad at all. Though you're playing Core + Psionics + Deities & Demigods making martials in general rather weak. You know what I'd recommend? Battle Cleric. Just get in there, smack things in the face and cast the odd control/summon spell as needed. Paladin with poor Charisma and Wisdom is also quite mediocre. Paladin in general needs a superb array and, as you said, preferably a non-Dwarf race (hard to go wrong with Human). And even then, Paladin is basically just a bad Cleric, but in this case you get none of the payoffs from the class due to mediocre Charisma and no spells/mount.

Honestly, if the party needs help and you want to be sure to be able to bail them out, the best classes are Cleric, Wizard, Psion, Druid, Psychic Warrior. For your concept (the ultimate dwarf tank), simply be a Cleric (bonus: incredible Will-saves). Dwarf Clerics are right up there as the most iconic characters and just about no class packs a defensive/control punch like a Cleric. You get the Paladinny stuff, you get to be a superb fighter and you can build for area control (get a reach weapon, cast Righteous Might once you hit 9, take AoO feats and profit). Negative energy channeling Cleric with undead minions is stronger, but a positive energy channeling classic good Cleric is also more than sufficient.


Cleric 4 would be able to already cast some of the good buffs though the next five levels are really where Cleric hits their stride. 3rd, 4th and eventually 5th level spells, caster level for Divine Favor to make a difference, etc. But on this level, take Strength-domain to be able to cast and use scrolls of Enlarge Person, Enlarge yourself for each fight, use Bull's Strength if you have the chance to buff before fighting, profit. Shield Other allows splitting damage with e.g. mounts, companions, summoned creatures or between teammates. Protection from Evil is obviously a superb buff, not only mind control-wise but also for the stats. Far as offensive casting goes, Shatter (destroy enemy Warriors' weapon)/Silence (AOE offers no save, cast on a rock near enemy casters as a readied actions and watch their spell fizzle as they mumble the last half of it), Spiritual Weapon, Command. Once you level up, stuff gets better too

You have absolutely superb stats to do something like this. I gather the array is 17, 16, 15, 14, 14, 12. Thus you could go:
16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con [14+2], 15 Int, 18 [17+1] Wis, 10 [12-2] Cha

This would qualify you for Combat Expertise > Improved Trip, which you can use with a reach weapon (on level 6, you could take your choice of Exotic Weapon Proficiency). Of course, if you have War-domain and an appropriate Deity or ideal, you could also get a martial reach tripping weapon that way. Guisarme seems to be the only option; Exotic Weapon Proficiency would get you the ever-popular Spiked Chain if the style appealed to you.

This would make for a rather powerful AoO zone controller particularly with Enlarge Person and later Righteous Might. With spells and all the goodies that entails, and a couple of domains and their granted powers and all the perks of being a Cleric. Of course, domains like Travel, Luck and Trickery are always good but they feel a bit weird here.

I'd just go Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 5 and use Contingent Summons/Planar Ally to get something to ride, while using a reach weapon for area control and Cleric spells to buff myself, debuff the enemies and control the battle.

[Arkhios]

You sadly managed to pick 3 of the worst classes in the sources. Dwarven Defender is quite weak. Defensive stance is almost unusable outside chokepoints and even there, anything with more reach than you can attack you with impunity while you have no way of hitting back. Mobile Defense helps a bit but that's ECL 15 earliest. Yeah, the level where Wizards are binding Pit Fiends and forcing them into obedience. All the class gives you is Uncanny Dodge, which is nice but much easier to get through Barbarian or Rogue, and the scaling AC bonus, which is decent, but not worth class levels (if you want AC, be a spellcaster. Fighter isn't worth playing in core 3.5 - weapon specialization is a weak feat and there aren't enough good feats overall to vindicate Fighter over the alternatives. Getting +1 to hit and +4 to damage with one weapon over others pales in comparison to Rage, spells, mounted charge, or any such. Barbarian is generally just better at the same job and Dwarven Barbarian is actually not bad at all. Though you're playing Core + Psionics + Deities & Demigods making martials in general rather weak. You know what I'd recommend? Battle Cleric. Just get in there, smack things in the face and cast the odd control/summon spell as needed. Paladin with poor Charisma and Wisdom is also quite mediocre. Paladin in general needs a superb array and, as you said, preferably a non-Dwarf race (hard to go wrong with Human). And even then, Paladin is basically just a bad Cleric, but in this case you get none of the payoffs from the class due to mediocre Charisma and no spells/mount.

Honestly, if the party needs help and you want to be sure to be able to bail them out, the best classes are Cleric, Wizard, Psion, Druid, Psychic Warrior. For your concept (the ultimate dwarf tank), simply be a Cleric (bonus: incredible Will-saves). Dwarf Clerics are right up there as the most iconic characters and just about no class packs a defensive/control punch like a Cleric. You get the Paladinny stuff, you get to be a superb fighter and you can build for area control (get a reach weapon, cast Righteous Might once you hit 9, take AoO feats and profit). Negative energy channeling Cleric with undead minions is stronger, but a positive energy channeling classic good Cleric is also more than sufficient.


Cleric 4 would be able to already cast some of the good buffs though the next five levels are really where Cleric hits their stride. 3rd, 4th and eventually 5th level spells, caster level for Divine Favor to make a difference, etc. But on this level, take Strength-domain to be able to cast and use scrolls of Enlarge Person, Enlarge yourself for each fight, use Bull's Strength if you have the chance to buff before fighting, profit. Shield Other allows splitting damage with e.g. mounts, companions, summoned creatures or between teammates. Protection from Evil is obviously a superb buff, not only mind control-wise but also for the stats. Far as offensive casting goes, Shatter (destroy enemy Warriors' weapon)/Silence (AOE offers no save, cast on a rock near enemy casters as a readied actions and watch their spell fizzle as they mumble the last half of it), Spiritual Weapon, Command. Once you level up, stuff gets better too

You have absolutely superb stats to do something like this. I gather the array is 17, 16, 15, 14, 14, 12. Thus you could go:
16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con [14+2], 15 Int, 18 [17+1] Wis, 10 [12-2] Cha

This would qualify you for Combat Expertise > Improved Trip, which you can use with a reach weapon (on level 6, you could take your choice of Exotic Weapon Proficiency). Of course, if you have War-domain and an appropriate Deity or ideal, you could also get a martial reach tripping weapon that way. Guisarme seems to be the only option; Exotic Weapon Proficiency would get you the ever-popular Spiked Chain if the style appealed to you.

This would make for a rather powerful AoO zone controller particularly with Enlarge Person and later Righteous Might. With spells and all the goodies that entails, and a couple of domains and their granted powers and all the perks of being a Cleric. Of course, domains like Travel, Luck and Trickery are always good but they feel a bit weird here.

I'd just go Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 5 and use Contingent Summons/Planar Ally to get something to ride, while using a reach weapon for area control and Cleric spells to buff myself, debuff the enemies and control the battle.

Sadly our group already has one cleric and I really don't want to step on others' toes.

Also, the stats and race are set in stone as well, as regrettable as it is.

For reference, the whole group consists of:
Dwarf Paladin 3/Fighter 1 (me)
Human Evoker 4
Human Cleric 4
Half-Elf Ranger 3/Rogue 1

[Boci]

Sadly our group already has one cleric and I really don't want to step on others' toes.

Also, the stats and race are set in stone as well, as regrettable as it is.

For reference, the whole group consists of:
Dwarf Paladin 3/Fighter 1
Human Evoker 4
Human Cleric 4
Half-Elf Ranger 3/Rogue 1

They already have an arcane caster, a divine caster, a melee dude and a skill monkey, those are the 4 basic rolls covered. Unless you take monk or bard, the "5th class" role, you're going to be doubling up. Clerics are pretty versatile classes, you can have two without stepping on eachothers toes.

[Anthrowhale]

Expanded Psionics has Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) which allows you to reformat skills & feats down to first level. You should be able to contract for a casting of this via the spell services (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) rules since the cost would be less than the 3K gp limit for routine services.

If you take two levels of Psion(Egoist) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), you'll have no long term XP penalty and can easily go into Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) to become a Psionic-based paladin. A Psion(Egoist) can choose exclusively powers that just affect themselves like Inertial Armor, Vigor, Precognition, Prescience, and Thicken Skin, which can make them quite effective in a tank role. In addition, some psionic feats like Deep Impact can work well on a tank. Psion is fully compatible with heavy armor, so the long term consequence of this is losing BAB+1 from the first level of Psion in return for becoming much tougher. You'll be significantly behind a pure Psion in terms of psionic power, but start your next level rivaling a Paladin 5 in capability and build to be well beyond a Paladin.

[Arkhios]

They already have an arcane caster, a divine caster, a melee dude and a skill monkey, those are the 4 basic rolls covered. Unless you take monk or bard, the "5th class" role, you're going to be doubling up. Clerics are pretty versatile classes, you can have two without stepping on eachothers toes.

That melee dude is my character.

[Boci]

That melee dude is my character.

Ah, my bad. Still, clerics can make good melee dudes. They have armour, can get a good weapon, and buff themselves with spells.

[Arkhios]

Ah, my bad. Still, clerics can make good melee dudes. They have armour, can get a good weapon, and buff themselves with spells.

Yeah, I know. I've played one to 15th level. Even though it was in pathfinder, the principles are same.

I guess I could just suck it up and take the 20% xp-penalty by becoming a cleric after 2nd level in Fighter (bonus feats are nice to have)

Or continue straight in fighter and take all the feats that would help me as a tank.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I know. I've played one to 15th level. Even though it was in pathfinder, the principles are same.

I guess I could just suck it up and take the 20% xp-penalty by becoming a cleric after 2nd level in Fighter (bonus feats are nice to have)

Or continue straight in fighter and take all the feats that would help me as a tank.

The problem is, there just aren't any useful feats. Dodge is a situational +1 AC, Mobility basically does nothing ever, and that's about it. If you can't retrain though, yeah, it might be better to continue as Fighter into Horizon Walker or such. Just straight-up Paladin could've been better.

[PrismCat21]

If you do go the Psionic route, the Feat Stand Still in the Expanded Psionic Handbook would work very well for you. When you are allowed an AoO due to foe's movement, you instead attack them before they move, and they must then make a save to move at all.

You said y'all are playing this game as close to RAW as possible, so remind your DM that the DMG pages 204-205 gives rules and suggestions for alternative Paladin mounts. It may sway him to allowing a different kind of mount than warhorse, and will make advancing Paladin more worthwhile choice for you.

I'll second War Mind for you. A level or two of Psychic Warrior will make entry easier an greatly improve your defensive/offensive capabilities.

[Malroth]

Serenity feat to go from Cha based to Wis based paladin or Grab from Smite to Song to give yourself Bardic music as an equal leveled bard to give yourself an actual party role besides "has HP"

[Arkhios]

actually, stand still is a general feat, not psionic, so I could take it even without power point reserves.

Serenity hardly helps now, since I can't change the stats and my charisma is higher than wisdom.

What if I took 2 levels in Wilder and then take Slayer? Charismatic psionics user would at least in theory work pretty well with Paladin, I think.

[Eldariel]

actually, stand still is a general feat, not psionic, so I could take it even without power point reserves.

Serenity hardly helps now, since I can't change the stats and my charisma is higher than wisdom.

What if I took 2 levels in Wilder and then take Slayer? Charismatic psionics user would at least in theory work pretty well with Paladin, I think.

It would, but losing 4 levels of manifesting and then having the weaker manifesting progression seems unfortunate. Plus your Int is higher than your Cha anyways; I might be inclined to just go Psion 2 and then enter Slayer. Or straight Psychic Warrior, though your Wisdom of course leaves something to be desired. But War Mind is definitely an interesting option too, since it is "fast progression" in a sense, just with a low cap. War Mind 10 would get 5th level powers much faster than going straight Psy War and it has some decent abilities too. It's not very powerful and would force you to pump Wisdom straight-up from now on and you need power point reserve somehow to enter (Hidden/Wild Talent would be the best but I guess you don't have access to feat retraining either) but once in, it would provide you with a rather good chassis.

[Red Fel]

Or continue straight in fighter and take all the feats that would help me as a tank.

Here's the thing - D&D doesn't do "tank" stuff well. It just doesn't. Being able to stand around and soak hits is pointless without some way to incentivize enemies focusing on you - and in a game where there are no aggro mechanics, that's hard. There are basically three ways to do it.
Don't use mechanics. Use good RP, like taunting or provoking an opponent. Use the fact that your character is a threat that needs to go down fast. Use whatever non-mechanics you can to make enemies want to hit you first, and focus on you until you drop. The problem, of course, is that this is no guaranty - no mechanics means no way to actually enforce this.
Use mechanics that allow saves. For example, the Knight class has the Knight's Challenge ability, which can force an enemy to engage you one-on-one. For various reasons, this is stupid and terrible. Short version is that these things have limited utility, can be resisted, and don't do what they need to even when they work.
Use mechanics that don't allow saves. I'm speaking, of course, of the Crusader, who has a number of abilities that impose absolute penalties - either numeric or in terms of provoking AoOs - anytime your opponent goes after someone who isn't you. This sort of thing is probably the closest the game comes to proper tanking, but unfortunately, Tome of Battle doesn't appear to be on your list of permitted texts.
The key to effective tanking is ensuring that enemies hit you, not your allies, and the sources you've listed, alone, don't have enough to support all that.

Really, instead of going the pure tank, consider pursuing a pure lockdown build, designed to disable an enemy. Admittedly, the best way to protect your allies is to destroy your enemies before they can cause harm, but the second best way is to disable them until they can be killed. There are feats that have been mentioned. Stand Still or Knock Down are both good options, as are Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. You can find a good lockdown handbook here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=13426.0) - it might have something you can use.

[PrismCat21]

actually, stand still is a general feat, not psionic, so I could take it even without power point reserves.

My bad. I was looking at the old version.

I've been detecting a bit of attitude in your responses to people... You could just say thank you instead of nit picking, ya know?
*insert meme of Kermit drinking his tea*

[Troacctid]

It might be worth eating a multiclass penalty for one level to get into a better prestige class. You won't be the only one in the party who's a little behind on xp if the wizard is doing crafting, so maybe it's not too bad. Basically, grab a level of Psion or Psychic Warrior, deal with a slower trek to the next level, and then you can get the second level to remove the penalty. Then prestige into Slayer. It'll sting for that one level, but I think you'll be in much better shape afterwards. And you can even take Knowledge (Psionics) ranks too, to open up War Mind as an option just in case you ever manage to find a library of sufficient size.

[ngilop]

I am just going to pop in here and reall emphasize going 4 levels into paladin. that way you get acess to paladin spell casting, and paladin spells are pretty amazing.

If for nothing else, at least you get the ability to use wands, scrolls and the like without having to resort to UMD rolls.

you are giving up a lot, in my opinion, when you give up your access to spells.

But i concur with anthrowhale go paladin 4 then psion(egoist)2 then slayer 10, then finish your psion.

[Troacctid]

If you go Paladin 4, then you have to go Psion 3 to avoid multiclass penalties.

[Gnaeus]

I am just going to pop in here and reall emphasize going 4 levels into paladin. that way you get acess to paladin spell casting, and paladin spells are pretty amazing.

If for nothing else, at least you get the ability to use wands, scrolls and the like without having to resort to UMD rolls.

Spell trigger items like wands can be used by paladins before they hit 4th level without UMD (see rules on spell trigger)

Also, remember they are core. There’s not a huge pile of sexy in the spells that paladins can get core as compared with psy warrior powers.

[ngilop]

Spell trigger items like wands can be used by paladins before they hit 4th level without UMD (see rules on spell trigger)

Also, remember they are core. There’s not a huge pile of sexy in the spells that paladins can get core as compared with psy warrior powers.

Psionics is not core in and of itself.. so I do not see the reason to point out the really sweet paladin spells are not in core.

[Remuko]

Psionics is not core in and of itself.. so I do not see the reason to point out the really sweet paladin spells are not in core.

some people (correct or not) consider it core because its OGL and on the SRD.

[Arkhios]

some people (correct or not) consider it core because its OGL and on the SRD.


Psionics is not core in and of itself.. so I do not see the reason to point out the really sweet paladin spells are not in core.

For the record, I never said we were using "core" rules. I simply stated which books are allowed, but that just happens to be because they are indeed included in the SRD.

As for the 4th paladin level to gain spells, I don't want them. 1 spell per day is damn close to useless. If I wanted divine spells, I would much rather play a cleric than a paladin. My reasons to take paladin was solely for the features gained from the first three levels (which are better than the rest). Turn Undead and Next-to-none spells per day really don't interest me that much.

As stated, spell trigger items such as wands can be used even before you have caster level as long as those spells are on your class spell list.

I can't get Psychic Reformation since psionics is uncommon in the region and therefore spellcasting services are lacking.

I'll have to live with the feats I have taken, but thanks to you all I have some ideas on how to progress:

1) take two levels in psychic warrior for access to knowledge (psionics) and some powers, but most importantly two bonus feats, and then one more level in fighter for yet another bonus feat. Beyond that, if I can find an instructor, I'll become War Mind. If not, then Slayer.

2) take two levels in psion (egoist) and follow up with Slayer.

3) take two levels in wilder and follow up with Slayer.

4) or just stick with the current plan and see how it goes.

[Troacctid]

if I can find an instructor
Or a book! Book is an option too! It's not in the SRD version of the class, but it is in the original source!


2) take two levels in psion (egoist) and follow up with Slayer.
Honestly, Egoist has Metamorphosis, which is very good, but there are strong powers in the other disciplines too. Kineticist has some very nice telekinetic abilities and can break the enemies' weapons while also blasting them in the face. Seer has unparalleled scrying abilities. Shaper has Astral Construct. Telepath can mind-control people, which is quite powerful against enemies that are susceptible to such things. And Nomad...well, okay, I guess Nomad is pretty meh.


3) take two levels in wilder and follow up with Slayer.
Ehhhh Wilder is basically just a worse version of Psion, so I'd cross this one out.

[Arkhios]

Or a book! Book is an option too! It's not in the SRD version of the class, but it is in the original source!


Honestly, Egoist has Metamorphosis, which is very good, but there are strong powers in the other disciplines too. Kineticist has some very nice telekinetic abilities and can break the enemies' weapons while also blasting them in the face. Seer has unparalleled scrying abilities. Shaper has Astral Construct. Telepath can mind-control people, which is quite powerful against enemies that are susceptible to such things. And Nomad...well, okay, I guess Nomad is pretty meh.


Ehhhh Wilder is basically just a worse version of Psion, so I'd cross this one out.

I really doubt that I'll find the book instead of an instructor. I'm not even sure if my DM knows about the book because he didn't even know (for some reason) that War Mind existed. I could mention it to him of course, but it would still probably be a little meta-gamey if my character went to search for a book he would have had no knowledge of before.

Yeah, I looked over the other disciplines as well but found that Egoist had the "best" defensive powers which have a priority for me.

Aside from Wilder flavor (which admittedly doesn't really fit the character) Elude Touch is actually pretty cool. Especially after increasing Charisma further.

[Anthrowhale]

The powers known limit for a Wilder is quite harsh. You'll want to use all the rest of your feats on Expanded Knowledge if you go that path.

[Arkhios]

The powers known limit for a Wilder is quite harsh. You'll want to use all the rest of your feats on Expanded Knowledge if you go that path.

Aww, hell. I forgot that. (My very first D&D character was a Wilder, but that was 16 years ago xD)

Looking back at my character's backstory, I think I'll go with the Psion/Slayer idea. My Constitution is so high that I can afford taking a few levels in a HD d4 class.

I forgot to mention that the character has an extra feat from the campaign called Big Game Hunter (+1 to attack rolls and +2 to damage rolls against Large or larger creatures) and if I'm reading Slayer's Favored Enemy right, it applies to only one type of creature?

[Anthrowhale]

I forgot to mention that the character has an extra feat from the campaign called Big Game Hunter (+1 to attack rolls and +2 to damage rolls against Large or larger creatures) and if I'm reading Slayer's Favored Enemy right, it applies to only one type of creature?
If you are actually using the book, then it only applies to Illithid and Illithid kin. If you are using the srd, then probably any one monster here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicMonsters.htm). The best choice is campaign dependent.

Slayer is a pretty good class for melee types even without Psionics advancement (which is fantastic). The Cerebral Blind class feature at Slayer 6 is half of mind blank and Cerebral Immunity at level 9 is the other half of mindblank except better since beneficial mind-affecting effects work. You also get several good skills (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive). Altogether, it closes gaping holes in a typical tank's defenses.

[Troacctid]

I really doubt that I'll find the book instead of an instructor. I'm not even sure if my DM knows about the book because he didn't even know (for some reason) that War Mind existed. I could mention it to him of course, but it would still probably be a little meta-gamey if my character went to search for a book he would have had no knowledge of before.
I think that's represented by the ranks in Knowledge (Psionics).

I'm not, like, super familiar with Rise of the Runelords, but the Player's Guide packet thingy for it says there's a lot of uncovering ancient lore, right? It could happen.

[Arkhios]

I'm not, like, super familiar with Rise of the Runelords, but the Player's Guide packet thingy for it says there's a lot of uncovering ancient lore, right? It could happen.

That's true. Let's see if it's ok.

[Arkhios]

Okay, what the hell...?

Psychic Warrior learns one power at first level but has 0 power points unless they have high enough (read: higher than 12) Wisdom Score (or take a feat that grants extra power points, such as Psionic/Wild Talent)?
That's just ridiculous...

[Anthrowhale]

Okay, what the hell...?

Psychic Warrior learns one power at first level but has 0 power points unless they have high enough (read: higher than 12) Wisdom Score (or take a feat that grants extra power points, such as Psionic/Wild Talent)?
That's just ridiculous...

Psychic Warrior has never seemed that convincing to me as a class. If you want to melee as a power user with a high BAB, you want to go into Slayer or War Mind. Both can be entered at level 6, but War Mind has a separate progression implying base class psionics contribute little. The Slayer can be entered with Full BAB 1/Psychic Warrior 4 or Full BAB 3/Psion(Egoist) 2. A Psion 2 has more power points and powers known than a Psychic Warrior 4. The only advantage that Psychic Warrior 4 has is a higher manifester level, but due to the lower power points/day it's not very relevant in the 4 encounters/day default of d&d. The situation is even worse in your case, since Psion(Egoist) 2 is better than Psychic Warrior 2 in all ways except 4 hit points and an extra feat. The feat has some real value, but it doesn't compare well to all the extra PP and powers known.

[Eldariel]

Okay, what the hell...?

Psychic Warrior learns one power at first level but has 0 power points unless they have high enough (read: higher than 12) Wisdom Score (or take a feat that grants extra power points, such as Psionic/Wild Talent)?
That's just ridiculous...

Psy Wars generally rely heavily on a high manifesting stat for their power points (they get just as much bonus as everyone else), but they can also get more mileage out of the various tricks (+1 Manifester Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#manifesterWeapon) are really cheap due to arrows costing only 1/50 of a full weapon's price each, Torc of Power Preservation is just awesome, etc.). But yeah, in your case Psion seems like your best bet.

[Arkhios]

Welp, I've got that much confirmed that we definitely won't encounter another War Mind, so if the DM deems it likely that the Talariic Codex doesn't exist in Golarion, there goes the War Mind.

Edit: Actually, call me stubborn, but I'm going to try out the Dwarven Defender anyway. I just don't think it's going to be that bad as you guys seem to be so convinced about. I made a slight change to the character build though. We are allowed to choose one variant for each class our characters have, and Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting includes a cleric variant Holy Warrior which trades domains entirely for Hit Die d10 and BAB equal to Cleric level.

Below, inside the spoiler, is an image of the new build.

https://i.imgur.com/DUwcief.png
The idea is pretty simple, actually. I'll drive the foes to a good spot where I can "jam" myself in with the Defensive Stance and keep it up as long as possible, while simultaneously lock the enemies down next to me.
When I can't to do that, I'm able to do pretty solid damage with Divine Might (adding my charisma to damage for one full round at a time by expending a Turn Undead use each time. Since the amount of Turn Undead uses depend on my Charisma, I'll be increasing it from now on. Which is obviously beneficial in other ways as well.) A few cleric spells is basically just gravy, Turn undead and better will saves are the main reason for taking those levels.