How to stat out an animal pc with animal hd level loss?

[Matrota]

I have a player in an upcoming (3.5e) campaign that wishes to play as an awakened wolf druid, and wants to get rid of the racial hit dice through permanent level-loss by paying a wizard to cast energy drain on him (choosing to deal minimum negative levels and purposefully failing the saves after 24h). How would losing the racial hit dice affect the wolf? Does he get to keep the bonus feats, special qualities, and attacks? Obviously his hit points, skill points, BaB and saves go down, but does he lose anything else?

The campaign starts at 4th ECL, so he would start this way with two levels in druid.

[noob]

If he does that and only lose the 2 bonus magical beast hit dice from awaken(the spell gives 2 bonus hd) he would lose nothing other than those hit dice.
If he lose more than 2 hd from that he would start losing class features from the wolf class.(such as stat increases or stuff like trip depending on which levels the wolf get those class features)
basically for knowing what would happen(if you use the savage species rules) you would need homebrew.
If you do not have savage species then there is no such thing as a wolf class and so the lost hit dice would not result in any loss other than the loss of the appropriate saves,hit points and bab.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It doesn't work that way. Your levels are drained in reversed order of gaining them, so class levels are drained before racial levels that are part of your starting race.
You can drain the bonus HD from Awaken, but draining all the wolf levels would just kill the character as normal for being drained below 1st level because the druid levels are drained first.
If it did work that way you wouldn't lose anything that's a function of race since those things are unrelated to HD (though you might want to houserule that for balance reasons).

You could drain all but one wolf level and then apply the "replace racial level with class level for 1HD creatures" rule. It's a little ambiguous because that case is never explored in the rules, but it's not outright against them. And even if it was if you, the DM, are fine with it you could just houserule it.
Do keep in mind that an awakened wolf has significantly better stats and abilities than other no-LA races, so the racial HD are kinda the price you pay for that. 4HD are a little steep, but one racial HD isn't imo.

There's also the question how that low-level wolf druid can afford to pay a wizard to cast a 9th level spell on him.

You also can't choose to do minimum damage with a spell that does random damage. Though there are more controllable sources of negative levels, so that's just a nitpick.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An adult wolf has two racial hit dice, if it loses them it would need to spend 'levels' regaining them before it could gain any class levels. Trying to use negative levels to get rid of/replace racial HD has absolutely zero RAW support, it cannot be done apart from a DM creating house rules to allow it, which is not recommended.

Awakened animals have "Level Adjustment: —" i.e. it's a nonability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities), i.e. it has no ECL and thus it's incapable of improving its ECL, such as by gaining character levels.

Furthermore, a wolf lacks the proper appendages to perform somatic components of spells, so he wouldn't be a very effective druid.

[Hellpyre]

Furthermore, a wolf lacks the proper appendages to perform somatic components of spells, so he wouldn't be a very effective druid.

Well, once they pick up natural spell, that will generally stop being an issue, although they would need to be in wild shape in order to cast.

Oddly enough, such a druid could not cast a spell with somatic components in their natural shape, but could do so wild shaped into a wolf.

[Telonius]

Well, once they pick up natural spell, that will generally stop being an issue, although they would need to be in wild shape in order to cast.

Oddly enough, such a druid could not cast a spell with somatic components in their natural shape, but could do so wild shaped into a wolf.

I'm imagining the Wild-shaped wolf to look exactly like the original, except with a mask and cape.

[flappeercraft]

Furthermore, a wolf lacks the proper appendages to perform somatic components of spells, so he wouldn't be a very effective druid.

Surrogate spellcasting works and debatably also for Wild Shape

[sleepyphoenixx]

An adult wolf has two racial hit dice, if it loses them it would need to spend 'levels' regaining them before it could gain any class levels. Trying to use negative levels to get rid of/replace racial HD has absolutely zero RAW support, it cannot be done apart from a DM creating house rules to allow it, which is not recommended.
Having to regain lost racial levels (or the same levels you had before the drain in general) before you can pick something else also has zero RAW support afaik.
Using level drain as a beneficial effect is completely unintended by the rules, so it's houserule territory either way.


Awakened animals have "Level Adjustment: —" i.e. it's a nonability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities), i.e. it has no ECL and thus it's incapable of improving its ECL, such as by gaining character levels.
Nonabilities refers specifically to ability scores. Level Adjustment isn't an ability score, so it can't be a nonability.
A "-" in LA just means "not suitable for use as a player character or cohort". If there is any RAW beyond that - about creatures with that not being able to level up specifically - i'd like a quote or page reference, because i can't recall anything of the sort. Because as i recall the rules are, again, silent on this specific issue.

And if you're allowing a player to play an awakened animal the ability to level up is kind of implied, even if it's not strictly RAW, so this line of reasoning is rather useless to the OP.

Furthermore, a wolf lacks the proper appendages to perform somatic components of spells, so he wouldn't be a very effective druid.
There's a feat for that in Savage Species. Or you could just houserule it if you allow awakened animal PCs in the first place.

[Falontani]

There's also the question how that low-level wolf druid can afford to pay a wizard to cast a 9th level spell on him.
Enervation is a fourth level spell and well within reasonable price, and a fell drain acid splash is even lower level.


You also can't choose to do minimum damage with a spell that does random damage. Though there are more controllable sources of negative levels, so that's just a nitpick.


Spells with any energy descriptor, the force descriptor, or the shadow descriptor are voluntarily “pulled,” dealing
half normal damage.
Proof that a spellcaster can at least do half damage on purpose, and while not RAW does eschew that one has control over their spell to a degree that they could voluntarily cast it weaker and do minimum.

[ShurikVch]

Firstly - mere level drain wouldn't got you rid of racial HD - they would come back at the next level-ups
To remove them completely, you will need to be killed and raised - because "This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means"

And secondly: how about the Dire Reincarnation spell (Dungeon #100)?
Example creature - Lone Tooth, the dire lion monk 12 - doesn't have any monstrous HD...

[sleepyphoenixx]

Enervation is a fourth level spell and well within reasonable price, and a fell drain acid splash is even lower level.
The negative levels from Enervation and Fell Drain can't become permanent (which is probably why the player specified Energy Drain).
And as i noted there are other options (you can just tangle with a suitable undead under controlled circumstances), so it was merely a nitpick.
As in, you could theoretically drain levels permanently at ECL 4 with another method, but not like that.
The main reason it doesn't work is that you can't drain your first racial HD without dying. There's no way around that.


Proof that a spellcaster can at least do half damage on purpose, and while not RAW does eschew that one has control over their spell to a degree that they could voluntarily cast it weaker and do minimum.
Energy Drain has none of those descriptors. If that level of control was intended the rule you quoted wouldn't have the restrictions it has, so my point stands.


Firstly - mere level drain wouldn't got you rid of racial HD - they would come back at the next level-ups
To remove them completely, you will need to be killed and raised - because "This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means"

A negative level that becomes permanent can't be restored either. It's lost permanently. It's not actually a status effect that can be removed.

On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one.
Since getting raised doesn't prevent you from levelling up the situation is exactly the same in either case, so unless you can back up that "come back at the next level-up" with RAW i'll have to disagree.

[Falontani]

Snip
I stand corrected; I always thought that all negative levels could permanently level drain. And I'll admit, I had the post all written up and I pulled the quote for support, only to realize that it was descriptor based, albeit nearly every spell type that does hit point damage short of necromancy spells.

[Celestia]

Since you're already in houserule territory for allowing a wolf, you may as well go all the way. There's no reason to make your player jump through hoops, especially not when the end result is so horribly mediocre, anyways. Just drop the animal HD without fuss, and let the player be a wolf with four druid levels. They won't break the game any more than a regular druid would because wolves kinda suck.

Anyways, to answer your question, if you get rid of all the HD, you'd lose the Weapon Focus feat but keep Track as it's explicitly a bonus feat. You'd keep the Trip, Low-Light Vision, Scent, and racial bonus on Survival checks as those are racial traits.

As far as being able to cast spells goes, I remember reading somewhere that non-humanoid creatures can fulfil somatic components in their base forms, even without hands. However, I cannot seem to find that anywhere now. :/

[sleepyphoenixx]

They won't break the game any more than a regular druid would because wolves kinda suck.
Wolves suck because of their racial HD and low int. Awakened wolves with no racial HD are pretty much top tier, race-wise. Not quite Antropromorphic Bat level for a caster druid, but pretty damn close.


As far as being able to cast spells goes, I remember reading somewhere that non-humanoid creatures can fulfil somatic components in their base forms, even without hands. However, I cannot seem to find that anywhere now. :/
That's for creatures with innate spellcasting. It's in the MM iirc, among other places.

[Remuko]

Wolves suck because of their racial HD and low int. Awakened wolves with no racial HD are pretty much top tier, race-wise. Not quite Antropromorphic Bat level for a caster druid, but pretty damn close.


That's for creatures with innate spellcasting. It's in the MM iirc, among other places.

inevitability's thread on playable monsters i think would disagree with you on the wolf bit.

[sleepyphoenixx]

inevitability's thread on playable monsters i think would disagree with you on the wolf bit.

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, 3d6 Int, -2 Cha with no racial levels or LA doesn't say suck to me. And that's not counting the 50ft move speed, natural armor, Trip ability, bonus feat, skill bonus and scent.
It may not be ideal stats for a druid, but that's pretty clearly not ECL 1/LA 0 abilities.

[Celestia]

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, 3d6 Int, -2 Cha with no racial levels or LA doesn't say suck to me. And that's not counting the 50ft move speed, natural armor, Trip ability, bonus feat, skill bonus and scent.
It may not be ideal stats for a druid, but that's pretty clearly not ECL 1/LA 0 abilities.
An awakened wolf doesn't get new stats with modifiers. You get 13 strength, 15 dexterity and constitution, 3d6 intelligence, 12 wisdom, and 6+1d3 charisma. Those are your stats. You may note that a mere 12 wisdom on a druid is damn near crippling to spellcasting.

[Bronk]

An awakened wolf doesn't get new stats with modifiers. You get 13 strength, 15 dexterity and constitution, 3d6 intelligence, 12 wisdom, and 6+1d3 charisma. Those are your stats. You may note that a mere 12 wisdom on a druid is damn near crippling to spellcasting.

Those are definitely horrendous druid stats. I think he'd be much better off playing an awakened topiary guardian wolf, possibly with the awaken spell cast either empowered, maximized, or both, level drained, then, when regaining levels, take the level 7 fangshield substitution level to be able to wildshape into a humanoid form.

That way you'd get an improvement to all your mental stats, and still be able to hang out in town after a few levels, and if he ever wanted to feel even wolfier, he could cast 'aspect of the wolf' and be all set.

Second choice would be an anthropomorphic wolf...

[Tohsaka Rin]

Is it too late to be cheeky and suggest playing a Were-Human? :smallbiggrin:

[sleepyphoenixx]

An awakened wolf doesn't get new stats with modifiers. You get 13 strength, 15 dexterity and constitution, 3d6 intelligence, 12 wisdom, and 6+1d3 charisma. Those are your stats. You may note that a mere 12 wisdom on a druid is damn near crippling to spellcasting.

I'd assumed that he'd get player stats since he's a player character.
If that's not the case then you're right, but i can't fathom why anyone would want to play a character like that, which leads to my assumption.

[DrMotives]

An awakened wolf cohort would have those base stats. But as a PC, you would take the racial adjustments and apply them to whatever stat method used in your current campaign, dice or point buy, as normal.

[Celestia]

An awakened wolf cohort would have those base stats. But as a PC, you would take the racial adjustments and apply them to whatever stat method used in your current campaign, dice or point buy, as normal.
Nowhere in the description of the Awaken spell does it say that stats are rerolled.

[DrMotives]

Nowhere in the description of the Awaken spell does it say that stats are rerolled.

Right, but this is starting as a PC. Unless the wolf was met as an NPC, someone awakened it, and a player wanted to use it as their PC. In the goblin description in the MM it doesn't say goblins have their stats rerolled if used as a PC. Do you insist that a player wanting to play one have all 10s & 11s plus racial modifiers at first level? Of course not, that's silly. I don't know why you're requiring the same for an awakened animal.

[Celestia]

Right, but this is starting as a PC. Unless the wolf was met as an NPC, someone awakened it, and a player wanted to use it as their PC. In the goblin description in the MM it doesn't say goblins have their stats rerolled if used as a PC. Do you insist that a player wanting to play one have all 10s & 11s plus racial modifiers at first level? Of course not, that's silly. I don't know why you're requiring the same for an awakened animal.
Because goblins don't need a spell to be cast on a different creature to exist. Goblins go through standard character creation and, thus, gain rolled stats. Awakened wolves are normal wolves that already exist and then become the target of a spell. There is no character creation. That's precisely why, under normal circumstances, they aren't even playable.

[DrMotives]

Because goblins don't need a spell to be cast on a different creature to exist. Goblins go through standard character creation and, thus, gain rolled stats. Awakened wolves are normal wolves that already exist and then become the target of a spell. There is no character creation. That's precisely why, under normal circumstances, they aren't even playable.

Ok, but that argument doesn't logically lead to "if you houserule to allow awakened animal PCs, they can't roll stats and have to use generic, typical animal stats." There's no reason to insist on that, it doesn't follow. A PC by definition is not a typical member of whatever race, it is an unusual specimen who becomes an adventurer. An awakened wolf being ruled to always be a plain vanilla generic animal, where normal character generation rules don't apply, isn't a very logical ruling. It's not as bad as the nonsense in the kobold thread, but it's not given as RAW just because someone houseruled in an awakened PC. The mechanics to turn one from an animal into an intellegent creature are frankly backstory at this point. Handicapping a character who already has no thumbs is both senseless and cruel.

[noob]

Ok, but that argument doesn't logically lead to "if you houserule to allow awakened animal PCs, they can't roll stats and have to use generic, typical animal stats." There's no reason to insist on that, it doesn't follow. A PC by definition is not a typical member of whatever race, it is an unusual specimen who becomes an adventurer. An awakened wolf being ruled to always be a plain vanilla generic animal, where normal character generation rules don't apply, isn't a very logical ruling. It's not as bad as the nonsense in the kobold thread, but it's not given as RAW just because someone houseruled in an awakened PC. The mechanics to turn one from an animal into an intellegent creature are frankly backstory at this point. Handicapping a character who already has no thumbs is both senseless and cruel.
I believe there is a dragon magazine which defined the la of some awakened animals.
some people considers dragon magazine is not the same as homebrew.

[Blue Jay]

I agree mostly with Celestia: just let them play without racial hit dice. Maybe drop one or two of their stat boosts or something, if you think it's overpowered.

If you really want to follow WotC rules, you could use this source (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) from the WotC website as a guideline. If you scroll down about 3/4's of the way, you'll see that they've created a 2-level progression for a wolf. It's meant to be used together with the lycanthrope template, but it seems perfectly reasonable to use it here. Maybe just give him the 1st level of that progression? It's still weak, so maybe add Scent and Trip to the 1st level, and he can just play with 1 racial HD?