Most Underwhelming Feats You Can't Help But Love

[Rizban]

We all know there are good feats and bad feats and feats that make you wonder what the devs were smoking. Then there's that small group of feats that you look at, think are really cool, but then discard because they're actually pretty useless. They're so close to being worthwhile but never quite make it. You keep coming back to them thinking of ways to work them into a build but never quite getting them to fit. This is a thread for those feats.


For me, it's the line of Combat Form feats from PHB 2: Combat Focus, et al.
The concept is neat to and works to evoke the idea of a mentally focused and deliberate fighter, but they just don't really do much in practice that other feats or options don't accomplish better. Worse, they have atrocious BAB requirements making them unavailable until much later than you'd want to use them. The slight Wisdom focus and theme almost makes them seem like Monk feats, but they're even harder for a Monk to actually take.

I've never actually seen them used in a game but always thought they would be cool if they had been done just a little differently.


So, what are yours?

[ViperMagnum357]

We all know there are good feats and bad feats and feats that make you wonder what the devs were smoking. Then there's that small group of feats that you look at, think are really cool, but then discard because they're actually pretty useless. They're so close to being worthwhile but never quite make it. You keep coming back to them thinking of ways to work them into a build but never quite getting them to fit. This is a thread for those feats.


For me, it's the line of Combat Form feats from PHB 2: Combat Focus, et al.
The concept is neat to and works to evoke the idea of a mentally focused and deliberate fighter, but they just don't really do much in practice that other feats or options don't accomplish better. Worse, they have atrocious BAB requirements making them unavailable until much later than you'd want to use them. The slight Wisdom focus and theme almost makes them seem like Monk feats, but they're even harder for a Monk to actually take.

I've never actually seen them used in a game but always thought they would be cool if they had been done just a little differently.


So, what are yours?

Inhuman Reach, from Lords of Madness. Despite the feat tax of 1, it allows a permanent, natural reach increase that could be so awesome for so many martial builds-but the prerequisite Aberrant Blood requires Humanoid, which is overwritten by almost any inherited template-and pretty much all of my optimized builds use Half-Minotaur or something else that disqualifies. That means pigeonholing into Half-Ogre and almost nothing else, which feels not quite worth it for the extra reach.

[SirNMN]

Spinning Defense: While wielding a pole arm during a total defense action, you receive a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class (that stacks with the bonuses from total defense) and you can use the Deflect Arrows feat any number of times until your next turn (you do not need an open hand to deflect ranged weapons while using this feat). While using this feat, you cannot catch any of the weapons through the Snatch Arrows feat.

while this seem like an awesome Idea for an AOO build, the feat tax is too high requiring the deflect arrow feat, and Combat Expertise. Which you cann't use while taking a total defense action. the feat tax always seems too high

[Pex]

I like Combat Casting. It is a big deal to me to be able to cast defensively and not fail as soon as possible. In 3E, Combat Casting + Skill Focus Concentration + 14 CO + max ranks means I never fail a defensive concentration check on even my highest spell for the rest of the game (edit: Starting at level 4) , barring penalty to skill checks. When I want to cast a spell, I want to cast a spell. I don't necessarily want to or be able to take a 5 ft step back.

In Pathfinder this is harder to do due to the harsher scaling of defensive casting DC of higher level spells. It is possible but requires more investiture in feats, a trait, and casting ability score. That's only if you want it for your highest level spell. If you don't need autosuccess for your highest level spell you can save a feat or two.

I'm also a fan of Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will. Passive abilities do not offend me. I like them. The +2 to the saving throw is significant and important enough for me.

[TheIronGolem]

Dodge. It should be an indispensable keystone for builds themed around mobile/acrobatic fighting styles, which means it should scale with BAB or character level. But even in Pathfinder it's only worthwhile to take if you're paying the feat tax for something else. Still, I end up putting it on a lot of characters who'd probably be better off with a different feat.

[calam]

Any feat that tries to make under used weapons like crossbows useful. I see things like crossbow mastery from pathfinder and think that I can make a cool crossbow build then I realize it has three prerequisite feats including one that might be a dead feat beforehand in order to get a bow with worse scaling.

[Mike Miller]

Wield Oversized Weapon. The -2 to hit is so much worse than the slight increase in damage. But the mental image is so great for any two-handed melee build.

[Troacctid]

Weapon style feats. The prerequisites are just too steep for them to be really good—but they're so cool!

Tactical feats are also really awesome, but rarely good. I particularly like the flavor of Combat Cloak Expert; it's just so awkward, though.

[Jiece18]

Whirlwind Attack
Not really worth the feats to acquire, but it was fun the few times I managed to pull it off.

[Ellrin]

I'm going to say the Possessed Hand family of feats in Pathfinder. Not because they're particularly useless individually; on the contrary, some of them are quite good, and it's a really fun concept. But whoever okayed them being connected to each other was drunk, because for virtually any build that you could use any one of those feats successfully in, most--if not all--the rest would be either useless or even actively detrimental. You have a feat that give boons to TWF while others require you to have a free hand. You have a feat that gives you expanded options for familiars while the base feat gives you a Concentration penalty. It's a conflicted mess.

[Celestia]

Wield Oversized Weapon. The -2 to hit is so much worse than the slight increase in damage. But the mental image is so great for any two-handed melee build.
Even if there was no penalty, the feat would still be completely underwhelming. Though, at least then, you could more easily justify taking it anyway for thematic reasons. At least it wouldn't hurt your build like it does now.

[Mike Miller]

Even if there was no penalty, the feat would still be completely underwhelming. Though, at least then, you could more easily justify taking it anyway for thematic reasons. At least it wouldn't hurt your build like it does now.

You are right....and yet I still take it once in a while just for the fluff

[Zaq]

I agree about tactical feats being full of very disappointing promise.

Gonna go kinda obscure here: Grell Alchemy, from LoM pg. 114. It's weird and pretends to have something to do with alchemy, which I love thematically, but it lets you craft all of, like, three items. There's Grell Crystal, a powder that turns into sheets of crystal—kinda interesting, but hard to base a character around, especially because the rules about how difficult it is to shape the stuff aren't really extant. Oh, and it takes an hour to grow and set, so it's not really something that you can use in the heat of the moment, so it's basically downtime stuff at best. There's Lightning Lances and the greater version thereof, which are expensive and don't have enough charges per day relative to the low damage they do (and require a DC 25 UMD check even if you're the one who made the bloody thing). And there's the Silverspear, which is literally just a +2 silvered shortspear unless you happen to be a grell, which you probably aren't. The feat also gives you a few very niche +2s, but not enough to justify the fact that it purports to be a crafting feat but really doesn't let you craft much of anything.

Lots of reserve feats are kinda disappointing. I understand that they're intentionally trying to be a little bit restrictive because "OMG scary OP at-will powers," but most of the ones that aren't Fiery Burst, Summon Elemental, and Minor Shapeshift are basically never worth the standard action, let alone the reserved spell and the feat. Excellent concept, poor execution. (Also, the range is usually wonky.)

The majority of feats that have a "family," which usually either require that you take a million of them or get better when you take more of them (Heritage feats, Abyssal Heritor feats, Devil-Touched feats, Combat Form feats, Aberrant feats, Host feats, Deformity feats, even Luck feats, etc.) can usually be described as "cool if the GM gives them to you for some reason, but impossible to base a build around when you only get one feat per three levels." Most characters just plain do not have enough feats to sink them into that sort of thing. They take too many feats to get to the good stuff, and you also need to use your feats to do things like not suck at whatever you choose your primary role to be. Even Dragonmark feats fit this description.

[martixy]

Inhuman Reach, from Lords of Madness. Despite the feat tax of 1, it allows a permanent, natural reach increase that could be so awesome for so many martial builds-but the prerequisite Aberrant Blood requires Humanoid, which is overwritten by almost any inherited template-and pretty much all of my optimized builds use Half-Minotaur or something else that disqualifies. That means pigeonholing into Half-Ogre and almost nothing else, which feels not quite worth it for the extra reach.

Boy, do I have good news for you! It's a feat called Mourning Mutate, found in Dragon #359, p.109, which is the non-humanoid version of Aberrant Blood.

Me, I like tactical feats, for the major, but ultimately unfulfilled promise of diversity in combat styles.

[Falontani]

Boy, do I have good news for you! It's a feat called Mourning Mutate, found in Dragon #359, p.109, which is the non-humanoid version of Aberrant Blood.

Me, I like tactical feats, for the major, but ultimately unfulfilled promise of diversity in combat styles.

You could also take Human Heritage from races of destiny

Mine would have to be Craft Rune Circle. I love the concept of rune circles but I just can't figure out a good way to include it on a PC that wont end up being a wasted feat. None of my campaigns have had me actually staying in one place long enough to make use of a rune circle, and I'd have to say this goes towards a lot of the more niche crafting feats.

[death390]

reserve feats are great but funky, i particularly love acidic splatter, fiery burst and summon elemental. i always have 1 of these for my 3.5 games (sometimes 2) just so i have something to do if i don't use a spell. (kinda hard on beguiler though usually have to do some shenanigans to get 1) love that these work with Heighten spell :)


a friend of mine can't get enough of draconic feats, though he is on a massive draconic anything kick.

[Remuko]

I love the reserve feat Winter's Blast. I have a druid in a game I never got to finish who fought almost exclusively with that, she used most of her spells for buffing but always kept a single slot at or near her highest level prepped with an ice spell to spam that whenever she had a spare action.

I also love Slashing Flurry and a lot of the Fighter feats that got introduced in the same book, its a shame theyre fighter only and have such silly and weak prereqs.

[Troacctid]

Oh! Spelltouched feats! Spelltouched feats are a super cool concept, but the effects are really narrow, so it can be hard to justify taking them.


Lots of reserve feats are kinda disappointing. I understand that they're intentionally trying to be a little bit restrictive because "OMG scary OP at-will powers," but most of the ones that aren't Fiery Burst, Summon Elemental, and Minor Shapeshift are basically never worth the standard action, let alone the reserved spell and the feat. Excellent concept, poor execution. (Also, the range is usually wonky.)
Honestly, I think reserve feats are just legitimately good? I often find myself actively wanting them on spellcaster builds. Even the lower-profile ones, like the Detect Magic one.

[ATHATH]

Boy, do I have good news for you! It's a feat called Mourning Mutate, found in Dragon #359, p.109, which is the non-humanoid version of Aberrant Blood.

Me, I like tactical feats, for the major, but ultimately unfulfilled promise of diversity in combat styles.
I was just about to suggest that- here's a link to it: http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Mourning_Mutate

[WhamBamSam]

I really want to like Momentary Alteration. Getting Alter Self on a non-caster allows for some interesting things, even limited to one form. In fact, the way the one form limit is set up could even be considered a selling point, as it allows you to use some sort of temporary type change (ie, Polymorph Scroll followed by Alter Self scroll) to circumvent type restrictions once, then go on circumventing them forever by way of the feat, but the 1 minute duration and 1/day limitation really put a damper on the feat's usefulness.

Savage Species is chock full of feats that fit the bill, but Detach sticks out to me as the one that I really want to construct a functional build around despite the many hurdles that it puts in the way.


Weapon style feats. The prerequisites are just too steep for them to be really good—but they're so cool!

Tactical feats are also really awesome, but rarely good. I particularly like the flavor of Combat Cloak Expert; it's just so awkward, though.Right there with you. I'll also point to Battleshifter Training as one that I find particularly frustrating. It's cool and stylish, but encounters generally don't last long enough for it to really be practical. OA also has a few feats with ridiculous prereqs that are style feats in all but name.


Wield Oversized Weapon. The -2 to hit is so much worse than the slight increase in damage. But the mental image is so great for any two-handed melee build.You mean Monkey Grip? Wield Oversized Weapon doesn't come with penalties, and would be perfectly fine if it were available pre-Epic. Honestly, I could live with the problems of Monkey Grip if it just had the decency to stack with Powerful Build.

[Thurbane]

What, no Blessed By Tem-Et-Nu?

Seriously though, Trophy Collector from PHB2. I really want to like this feat, but the payoff isn't worth it.

[Zaq]

Oh! Spelltouched feats! Spelltouched feats are a super cool concept, but the effects are really narrow, so it can be hard to justify taking them.


Honestly, I think reserve feats are just legitimately good? I often find myself actively wanting them on spellcaster builds. Even the lower-profile ones, like the Detect Magic one.

There's a few that are good, but would you ever spend a feat and a standard action (in melee range on a squishy caster, mind you) on maybe inflicting a –2 for several rounds (with a save to mitigate)? That's Sickening Grasp.

How about a feat and a standard action to maybe impose concealment for a single round, but with a save to negate? Shadow Veil.

Ooh, or how about a feat and a standard action in melee to maybe make someone take, like, five to nine whole damage (that cannot disrupt them) if they cast a spell (again, with a save to mitigate)? Mystic Backlash.

Is it worth a standard action to reduce something's movement speed without immobilizing them? That's Clutch of Earth, and it at least doesn't allow a save, but again, feats are expensive. (It's sorta-kinda worth the action in certain cases, but not often enough to be worth the feat, I'd argue.)

Magic Disruption at least doesn't take a standard action, but any enemy caster who can't make the Concentration check is going to be very vulnerable to, say, a beatstick getting up in their grill, and even a failed check only imposes a trivial penalty. That hardly seems to be worth the feat cost.

Invisible Needle is thematic as hell, but it requires getting up almost in melee range and then making a non-touch attack to do, y'know, not a ton. (It's super classy, but it's hard to defend it as being worth the feat and the action and the reserved spell if you aren't just juicing your caster level with Magic Missile.)

How often would you spend a feat and a standard action to make a ranged bull rush with very few bonuses, with your only reward for success being 5 ft of forced movement? Hurricane Breath.

I personally would never spend a feat for the ability to spend a standard action to impose a –2 on a single attack roll (which will be the one at their best attack bonus, of course) or Reflex save, but that's what Touch of Distraction offers. I might take the ability for free, but never for a feat.

Fiery Burst is good, Minor Shapeshift is good, Summon Elemental is good. Winter's Blast, Storm Bolt, Clap of Thunder, and Acidic Splatter require the caster to be way closer to the target than I like my low-level mages to be, but they're otherwise acceptable. (Storm Bolt is a bit better than the others, but it's also available later.) Wind-Guided Arrows is amusing, though it's a bit niche. Sunlight Eyes seems a bit weaksauce, though I had forgotten that it allows you to see in magical darkness. Magic Sensitive is inferior to Vatic Gaze except that it comes online a bit earlier, though I'd prefer to use actual spell slots (what else are your cantrip slots for?) or a magic item (I don't feel like the problem it solves is a feat-grade problem). Face-Changer is decent, but a Hat of Disguise is cheap. Drowning Glance is almost decent, but it comes online late and is unlikely to be your best standard action if you've got 4th level slots available. The number of cases where Dimensional Reach will solve a problem that Mage Hand cannot solve is smaller than the number of cases I consider to be worth a feat. Dimensional Jaunt isn't awful, but Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt comes online earlier. Borne Aloft is a late game effect and is probably better handled by a magic item. Blade of Force is pretty trivial damage and is difficult to use (gishes rarely have force spells of the appropriate level, and non-gishes rarely care about doing a small amount of extra damage with a weapon). Aquatic Breath probably has its uses.

Overall, there's more passable options than many feat descriptors, but there's an awful lot of clunkers. Especially if you're a spontaneous caster or otherwise a level behind. The effects are often mildly interesting, but the combination of a feat and a standard action is usually a higher cost than I want to pay.

I 100% agree about spelltouched feats.

[Barbarian Horde]

Fling Ally

Goliath staring at the gnome: "someone should scout that cave"
Gnome: your right, not me though.

Gnome is thrown into goblin cave with encouragement from the goliath to do a good job.

[timeeater14]

Energy Gestalt, from CArc. I've always wanted to figure out a good build based around spamming Acid Splash or Jolt or something at people, but it's so bad. Despite that, every time I see it I want to make all the people nauseated or shoot Rays of Frost at swords for no reason.

[Akal Saris]

A few of the weaker feats/feat themes that I really like:

Reserve feats are awesome, I especially like Summon Elemental Reserve - it's not bad but really just good for mainly non-combat situations
'Vile' feats from BoVD and Elder Evils are really neat, I love Insane Defiance
Elusive Target always seemed like a nifty way to use Dodge
Poison Spell! Very cool, thematic ability, but surprisingly hard to use (you need to be casting touch spells and also have poison immunity & lots of poisons...)
Fey Heritage feat line
Luck feats from Complete Scoundrel - I once made a diviner who went full luck feats with the Unlock spell as her main attack, it was...not great. The Witch in PF ended up being able to pull off the diceroll buff/debuffer concept much better :P
Draconic Aura feat - cool idea, not usually worthwhile

[Troacctid]

There's a few that are good, but would you ever spend a feat and a standard action (in melee range on a squishy caster, mind you) on maybe inflicting a –2 for several rounds (with a save to mitigate)? That's Sickening Grasp.
Hey, it's a guaranteed -2 to saving throws for at least a round. That's not too shabby if your buddy has a wombo combo save-or-lose waiting in the wings. Plus skill and ability checks—touch someone before telling them a lie and they'll be at -2 to Sense Motive, for example. And it's not actually standard action, technically, it's a rider effect whenever you hit a living creature with a melee touch attack. Unload a chill touch and give them a -2 penalty to save against the ability damage.

It also adds +1 to necromancy spells, so that's an extra attack with that chill touch, not to mention controlling additional HD of undead. I'm a fan.

A lot of them look a lot more desirable when you factor in the +1 CL. It often equates to extra damage, higher bonuses, etc.

[DrMotives]

The sicking grasp always seemed to me to be for a necromancy gish. It's also gravy for anyone who uses the inflict wounds line of spells, since the feat is powered by those spells, boosts the CL by 1, and adds it's rider effect onto any use of them.

[Troacctid]

Chill Touch is better, since you get to make all the attacks as part of the same standard action.

[death390]

that is an interesting reading of chill touch, i thought you could only make 1 touch attack with the casting of the spell and the rest were later rounds.

[Zaq]

Huh. I hadn't noticed that bit about Sickening Grasp arguably not costing its own action. Pg. 37 of Complete Mage says "unless stated otherwise, it [a reserve feat] requires a standard action to activate," and there's the global rule about supernatural abilities costing a standard action in the absence of anything else, but there's an argument to be made either way here, I think. It's very similar to Soul Eater, now that I think about it. If it doesn't cost its own action, then yeah, I agree that Sickening Grasp is pretty good. If it does cost its own action, though, I maintain that it's not sufficiently useful to warrant the feat cost. Making someone fail a save to impose a –2 penalty on another save rarely works out, and if you're sufficiently sturdy/gishy/full of touch attacks to want to be in melee, you should probably just be attacking or using your own touch attacks. (They don't have to fail a save if you're setting up for someone else to use the SoD effect, true, but I've never seen a game where that's a common enough set of scenarios where it'd be worth the feat cost and action cost.)

The bonus to CL is nice in the right build, which is true for any of them. But it's a niche build indeed where +1 CL is going to be the best bang for your buck you can get for a whole feat. I understand that it's part of the package deal, but I still feel like it makes the good ones better rather than making the weak ones good.

I agree that reserve feats are cool. I just feel like most of them are disappointing when the full set of costs (feat slot, actions used, opportunity cost of spells known and/or reserved, and danger cost getting your squishy caster butt into range) is considered. Which is why we're discussing them in a thread about "feats that are cool but disappointing."

[Troacctid]

that is an interesting reading of chill touch, i thought you could only make 1 touch attack with the casting of the spell and the rest were later rounds.
I thought so too, but RC is clear that if a spell with a casting time of a standard action lets you make multiple attacks, you make all those attacks as part of that standard action.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Born of the Three Thunders is mine.
It'd be quite nice on a blaster, but aside from requiring Energy Substitution as a feat tax ES also needs 5 ranks in knowledge:arcana AND another metamagic feat, which makes it awkward as hell to fit into a build. Especially non-wizard ones.
Not to mention that there's no Searing Spell/Piercing Cold equivalent for lightning/sonic damage and it splits the spells damage into half lightning half sonic, so even minor amounts of resistance screw you over. That's in addition to the daze effect (which you can get around, but that still costs you additional resources).

The idea of combining blasting and BFC is quite nice, but the number of hoops you have to jump through for BotTT is ridiculous.


I thought so too, but RC is clear that if a spell with a casting time of a standard action lets you make multiple attacks, you make all those attacks as part of that standard action.

Wow, that rule makes spells like Storm Touch, Scalding Touch and the like a lot more powerful. Especially if you combine it with Reach Spell or something similar.

[umbergod]

I think any and all of the reserve feats. They arent fantastic, but ive always been one to sacrifice power for thematic style. At low levels it gives a caster a blasting option that isnt just fire heavy xbow/reload heavy xbow

[death390]

I thought so too, but RC is clear that if a spell with a casting time of a standard action lets you make multiple attacks, you make all those attacks as part of that standard action.

god that makes improved unarmed strike 10x more powerful when paired. since as long as you have that feat you can use a unarmed attack (at normal AC) instead of a touch attack to deliver touch attacks, gaining the unarmed strike damage on top of it.

so since you can make all attacks when you cast its a quick way to do a "flurry of blows" esc thing with a monk. thinking duskblade with supirior unarmed strike or so.

[ManicOppressive]

Honestly, I think reserve feats are just legitimately good? I often find myself actively wanting them on spellcaster builds. Even the lower-profile ones, like the Detect Magic one.

Yeah, especially on spontaneous casters I quite like the reserve feats. I was thinking about mentioning them myself but I think they're more like something I consider the community to underrate. Dimensional Jaunt is my favorite--a standard action teleport isn't always the best in combat but it's wildly useful outside of it. Even the ones that just give you a quick elemental damage attack like Storm Bolt are pretty fun if nothing else for the sake of always having a damage curve option.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, there's the follow-up feat to Wedded to History (Golden Ager), Master's Voice. It allows you to use a standard action to use UMD to take over control of a mindless undead or construct for one round (the real master cannot be present). It's almost entirely useless in combat, has very limited out-of-combat utility (when do you see non-hostile mindless undead/constructs that you didn't create yourself?), and comes online well after command undead, but it's one of my favourite flavour feats. The parallels it suggests between magic item creation and undead creation are very powerful worldbuilding tools.

[The Viscount]

Savage Species is chock full of feats that fit the bill, but Detach sticks out to me as the one that I really want to construct a functional build around despite the many hurdles that it puts in the way.

Detach was on my list of things to center a build around for the longest time. I knew I wanted to do something duskblade related with it, but I couldn't actually get anything to congeal until the multiheaded villainous competition, and I'm sure that's about as good as I'm going to get with it, and I still don't have a great way around the piles of nonlethal damage I take doing my shtick.
Detach as a PC is so much more frustrating. The only way I can easily think of is via Flux Adept, and that class is not good enough to really use.

On the topic of the thread at large, I really love the idea of the feat Heads Up from Dragon Compendium. That being said the number of times it would actually come up in a game are so few that I'm not even sure it's worth taking as a Chameleon's free floating feat. But if that time ever did come up you would feel so cool...

[RaiKirah]

and I still don't have a great way around the piles of nonlethal damage I take doing my shtick.


Probably not actually a good idea, but I believe that 10 levels of Green Star Adept would do the trick


Edit: That or start with a Warforged

[Drelua]

Funny, I was just reading the combat trance feats the other day. They're so cool, but I would never take them. Maybe if the bonuses were bigger and uses of the feats that end your trance only ended it until your next turn or something they'd be good, but as they are... no.

Mine would be Cartwheel Dodge from PF, I wouldn't necessarily say it's bad, but it's got some pretty high level pre-reqs - improved evasion and 13 ranks acrobatics I think - and it's only good for certain characters. It lets you move half your speed as an immediate any time you succeed on a reflex save against an AoE, which is decent when you're a monk with a speed of 70 or 80, maybe you can move right up to whoever cast that fireball, but if your speed is 30 it's not as impressive. Maybe if someone in your party casts haste a lot? Anyway, I just love the image of a character dodging a fireball and cartwheeling across the map, right at a very surprised wizard

[Rizban]

Probably not actually a good idea, but I believe that 10 levels of Green Star Adept would do the trick


Edit: That or start with a WarforgedWarforged aren't immune to nonlethal damage.

[RaiKirah]

Warforged aren't immune to nonlethal damage.

Indeed sir, you are correct - just checked that again. Pesky little 'Unlike other constructs' phrase...

[P.F.]

Monkey Grip. Strictly not worth it if you want to use an oversized spear or be Cloud Strife--it ends up being a rubbish version of power attack that nets you an average +1 or 2 damage and you can't turn it off without switching weapons. Doesn't let you wield a staff one-handed, so you can't Galdalf dual wield either. Most disappointing, it doesn't allow you to use the full length of a too-big reach weapon, which would have rocketed this feat from disappointing to awesome.

And of course monkey grip always makes me think of brachiation which seems like it would be fun, but comes up too rarely to be worth a feat on its own.

[WhamBamSam]

Energy Gestalt, from CArc. I've always wanted to figure out a good build based around spamming Acid Splash or Jolt or something at people, but it's so bad. Despite that, every time I see it I want to make all the people nauseated or shoot Rays of Frost at swords for no reason.Kauper's Quickblast (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a) might help a bit, especially if your DM rules it to be a free action that just eats your potential Quickened Spell for the round (the Web Article is after the 3.5 transition, so if it says free action it should mean free action, but it does say that it's "a free action, like a quickened spell," and Quickened Spells aren't free actions).


A few of the weaker feats/feat themes that I really like:

Reserve feats are awesome, I especially like Summon Elemental Reserve - it's not bad but really just good for mainly non-combat situations
'Vile' feats from BoVD and Elder Evils are really neat, I love Insane Defiance
Elusive Target always seemed like a nifty way to use Dodge
Poison Spell! Very cool, thematic ability, but surprisingly hard to use (you need to be casting touch spells and also have poison immunity & lots of poisons...)
Fey Heritage feat line
Luck feats from Complete Scoundrel - I once made a diviner who went full luck feats with the Unlock spell as her main attack, it was...not great. The Witch in PF ended up being able to pull off the diceroll buff/debuffer concept much better :P
Draconic Aura feat - cool idea, not usually worthwhile
I'll occasionally find myself in need of a Vile feat for a build, but can never bring myself to spend a real feat on it. After all, once you're already committed to that level of cartoonish villainy, what's Dedication to an Elder Evil, really?

I really like Elusive Target. You can use Dodge and Midnight Dodge together to have two dodge targets, and generally get up to some wacky hijinks. Deceptive Dodge is another similar, albeit less good, feat in a similar vein that I feel compelled to break out every now and again.

Poison Spell I really like as well. It does put some hurdles up that make it difficult to use, but they're largely solvable problems. Jungle Halfling and various flavors of Necropolitan offer caster-friendly ways of avoiding the risk of poisoning yourself. Minor Creation (or Psionic Minor Creation through Hidden Talent) can pump out Black Lotus Extract on the cheap. Being restricted to touch spells is slightly bothersome, but not the end of the world. I've thought for a while that a Duskblade with Poison Spell poisoning both his sword and channeled spell would be cool.


Detach was on my list of things to center a build around for the longest time. I knew I wanted to do something duskblade related with it, but I couldn't actually get anything to congeal until the multiheaded villainous competition, and I'm sure that's about as good as I'm going to get with it, and I still don't have a great way around the piles of nonlethal damage I take doing my shtick.
Detach as a PC is so much more frustrating. The only way I can easily think of is via Flux Adept, and that class is not good enough to really use.

On the topic of the thread at large, I really love the idea of the feat Heads Up from Dragon Compendium. That being said the number of times it would actually come up in a game are so few that I'm not even sure it's worth taking as a Chameleon's free floating feat. But if that time ever did come up you would feel so cool...I've always thought that the way to go optimizing Detach was to have a stockpile of limbs to throw at people. I thought about a Detach thrower in the Flux Adept round, but was stymied by the seeming inability to keep my stockpile of Detached Bitter Tides claws from reverting to normal hands and decomposing (in retrospect, Preserve Organ might have actually solved both problems). I agree though, Flux Adept isn't really good enough. My choice for Regeneration source on a PC would probably be the Shriver (FCII), though it has some problems as well.

Is the idea with Duskblade that Arcane Channeling counts as a special attack that deals damage? My thought (following from my stockpile idea) was to make a bunch of claw attacks and trigger some manner of Rend ability.

It's worth remembering at least, in the Chameleon case. If you know you're going to fight something with a collectible head that you are confident in your party's ability to beat (or are fighting something with a collectible head that you think you can incapacitate and save for later), then as you say, it's a pretty snazzy little back pocket trick.



I'll offer up another feat in Hurling Charge. It seems cool, but is obviously overshadowed by Pounce most of the time.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Doesn't let you wield a staff one-handed, so you can't Galdalf dual wield either.
You can already wield a staff one-handed. You can do that with all double weapons (though you can only use one side of it per round).


Poison Spell I really like as well. It does put some hurdles up that make it difficult to use, but they're largely solvable problems. Jungle Halfling and various flavors of Necropolitan offer caster-friendly ways of avoiding the risk of poisoning yourself. Minor Creation (or Psionic Minor Creation through Hidden Talent) can pump out Black Lotus Extract on the cheap. Being restricted to touch spells is slightly bothersome, but not the end of the world. I've thought for a while that a Duskblade with Poison Spell poisoning both his sword and channeled spell would be cool.

You can't use poison created with (Psionic) Minor Creation for Poison Spell. Poison Spell turns the poison in question into a material component, and items created with Minor Creation explicitly can't be used as material components.

Your best bet is a poisonous familiar, animal companion or Wild Cohort and ranks in craft:poisonmaking to make your own poison cheaply. Sadly druids don't have any good multi-attack touch spells and wizards don't want to use theirs.
It could work on a gish though. Something like Storm Touch combined with a nice DC-boosted poison and the rule about standard action spells making all their attacks in the same action that was mentioned above could be nasty as hell.
Even just Parching Touch or Chill Touch is already pretty nasty when you get CL attacks at your highest AB.
Or for maximum nastyness use Poison Spell Storm Touch on an Arcane Hierophant wildshaped into an Ironmaw (which has a natural reach of 60ft). That's an encounter ender right there.

[Rizban]

I'll offer up another feat in Hurling Charge. It seems cool, but is obviously overshadowed by Pounce most of the time.I actually rather like Hurling Charge in the right build. It's pretty gimpy, but I do like it.
Combining it with Roof-Jumper and Spring Attack/Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz and a level of Lion Totem Barbarian allows you to make multiple charges per round with pouncing plus making a thrown weapon attack too. It's a very niche build but fun. It's the only time I've found Hurling Charge to be worthwhile though.

[Jormengand]

What, no Blessed By Tem-Et-Nu?

I was gonna mention it if no-one else did.

[WhamBamSam]

You can't use poison created with (Psionic) Minor Creation for Poison Spell. Poison Spell turns the poison in question into a material component, and items created with Minor Creation explicitly can't be used as material components.

Your best bet is a poisonous familiar, animal companion or Wild Cohort and ranks in craft:poisonmaking to make your own poison cheaply. Sadly druids don't have any good multi-attack touch spells and wizards don't want to use theirs.
It could work on a gish though. Something like Storm Touch combined with a nice DC-boosted poison and the rule about standard action spells making all their attacks in the same action that was mentioned above could be nasty as hell.
Even just Parching Touch or Chill Touch is already pretty nasty when you get CL attacks at your highest AB.
Or for maximum nastyness use Poison Spell Storm Touch on an Arcane Hierophant wildshaped into an Ironmaw (which has a natural reach of 60ft). That's an encounter ender right there.Ahh. I actually ran into that issue the last time I tried using Poison Spell, back in the Shadowsmith round of Iron Chef, but I just remembered it as being an issue with Shadowsmith's Shadow Craft ability. Makes sense that Minor Creation would have a similar stipulation.

If there's a good poison producing familiar, the Duskblade idea could still have legs. It'll be a considerable step down from Black Lotus Extract, but you can still Full Attack Channel it plus add some to your weapon, and don't have to rely on the cheese of making 10 touch attacks as a standard action. In your Storm Touch+Ironmaw example, poison is unlikely to make much difference as to whether it ends the encounter or not. Either enemies will have a way to counter it, and live, or they'll take the damage, and die.

[Rizban]

A Shinomen Naga Greensnake is only a +1 LA and has an at will poison that does 1d3 Con/1d3 Con. That could maybe work?

[Troacctid]

Sea snakes from Stormwrack have the best poison of any familiar.

[ShurikVch]

Kauper's Quickblast (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a) might help a bit, especially if your DM rules it to be a free action that just eats your potential Quickened Spell for the round (the Web Article is after the 3.5 transition, so if it says free action it should mean free action, but it does say that it's "a free action, like a quickened spell," and Quickened Spells aren't free actions).FYI, Swift and Immediate actions aren't in Core;
In the true "Core-only" game, Quickened Spell is still a free action

[WhamBamSam]

I actually rather like Hurling Charge in the right build. It's pretty gimpy, but I do like it.
Combining it with Roof-Jumper and Spring Attack/Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz and a level of Lion Totem Barbarian allows you to make multiple charges per round with pouncing plus making a thrown weapon attack too. It's a very niche build but fun. It's the only time I've found Hurling Charge to be worthwhile though.Hurling Charge says the following.
If you have the ability to make multiple attacks on a charge, you may make only one attack in addition to the thrown weapon attack. So you can't combine it with Pounce. The only way you can make use of it is if you have something that precludes Pouncing, but does allow for Hurling Charge.


Sea snakes from Stormwrack have the best poison of any familiar.Does that include Improved Familiars? If so, that's a little disappointing. Not that 1d6 Con is bad, it's just nowhere near the level of the better poisons.


FYI, Swift and Immediate actions aren't in Core;
In the true "Core-only" game, Quickened Spell is still a free actionI'm not sure how to apply this bit of information, if indeed that is the case. The Kauper's Quick Book web article is clearly non-Core, so swift actions should still exist.

[Troacctid]

Does that include Improved Familiars?
It does not.

[Starbuck_II]

I liked Deadly Defense. Sure, only +1d6 damage while fighting defensively but it just grabs me in for thematic reasons.
If it wasn't for other limits, it might be great (can't use heavier than light/WFinesse weapons only).

[Thurbane]

...and I still don't have a great way around the piles of nonlethal damage I take doing my shtick.


Probably not actually a good idea, but I believe that 10 levels of Green Star Adept would do the trick

Crimson Scourge 8 will do it.

[The Viscount]

Probably not actually a good idea, but I believe that 10 levels of Green Star Adept would do the trick


Edit: That or start with a Warforged
Green star Adept is unfortunately out because creatures without a Con score cannot have regeneration.
It would be possible to use Warforged Juggernaut to gain immunity to nonlethal, but having that with regeneration would make the character immune to hitpoint damage (except the type that pierces regen) and that's an overkill solution for a build that's mostly about silly fun. I suppose I could always repurpose one of my feats for Martial Spirit for a bit faster. It was never a huge problem, since having regen means the damage goes away on its own, it just means watching how many times you use it in one combat. Then again I could always nab arcane disciple for refreshment...


I've always thought that the way to go optimizing Detach was to have a stockpile of limbs to throw at people. I thought about a Detach thrower in the Flux Adept round, but was stymied by the seeming inability to keep my stockpile of Detached Bitter Tides claws from reverting to normal hands and decomposing (in retrospect, Preserve Organ might have actually solved both problems). I agree though, Flux Adept isn't really good enough. My choice for Regeneration source on a PC would probably be the Shriver (FCII), though it has some problems as well.

Is the idea with Duskblade that Arcane Channeling counts as a special attack that deals damage? My thought (following from my stockpile idea) was to make a bunch of claw attacks and trigger some manner of Rend ability.

I'm always wary of making a stockpile of limbs since the text of the feat refers to tearing off to make the attack, and some might rule to only allow you to throw in the same round you ripped of a body part.
The Shriver is a really neat source of regeneration, but I can never work myself up to using it in competitions because the character would have to be strong enough to reach it, survive the damage, and pass the saves, and any character who could do this likely has something stronger than regeneration and detach at their disposal.

Rend would be a great idea for throwing claws, but devilishly hard to get reliably. I can only think of Black Blood Cultist if you aren't changing forms.

The idea for the build that I made is somewhat complicated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425436&postcount=65). I thought about saying that Duskblade Channeling was a special attack, but I wanted to make my build rules legal, so I actually went a different path. I used bloodstorm blade's thunderous throw to get my thrown attacks with detach to count as melee, and then used that as a platform to place channel onto. Then I used lightning ricochet to put the part back into my hand, so that I could reattach it by holding it against the stump. For this reason I used troll, who has that specific clause in its regeneration. I used heads since it was a head-focused round, but the build could be repurposed for claws. Duskblade's arcane channel here restricts me to a standard action when I'm doing this, because I couldn't cram enough levels for the version on a full attack.

There's a simpler though much weaker argument that could be made using the rules for "holding a charge" which state that the charge remains in your hand. One might argue that the charge would remain in your hand even after detaching and throwing, because it discharges when you make a natural attack.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm always wary of making a stockpile of limbs since the text of the feat refers to tearing off to make the attack, and some might rule to only allow you to throw in the same round you ripped of a body part.I guess.



The Shriver is a really neat source of regeneration, but I can never work myself up to using it in competitions because the character would have to be strong enough to reach it, survive the damage, and pass the saves, and any character who could do this likely has something stronger than regeneration and detach at their disposal.With a party's worth of help, a relatively modest sum of money, and/or a backstory of some evil cabal wanting to create a regenerating warrior, it seems like it shouldn't be too big of a problem, though I suppose all of those things do present problems if we want the build to be self-reliant.


Rend would be a great idea for throwing claws, but devilishly hard to get reliably. I can only think of Black Blood Cultist if you aren't changing forms.Rend is a feat if you're Huge (like many PsyWars and Psionic Duergar with 1-2 of the Duergar Expansion feat can reliably be). There's the Great Rend Shifter feat as well, though its damage is underwhelming and it's not clear how the phrase "both claw attacks" should be parsed in this case. Girallon Arms bound to the arms chakra gets you a rend ability. That's all I've got without form shifting at least to the level of being some sort of Lycanthrope (or Divine Minion of Anhur if you like cheese, though that precludes use of the Shriver).


The idea for the build that I made is somewhat complicated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425436&postcount=65). I thought about saying that Duskblade Channeling was a special attack, but I wanted to make my build rules legal, so I actually went a different path. I used bloodstorm blade's thunderous throw to get my thrown attacks with detach to count as melee, and then used that as a platform to place channel onto. Then I used lightning ricochet to put the part back into my hand, so that I could reattach it by holding it against the stump. For this reason I used troll, who has that specific clause in its regeneration. I used heads since it was a head-focused round, but the build could be repurposed for claws. Duskblade's arcane channel here restricts me to a standard action when I'm doing this, because I couldn't cram enough levels for the version on a full attack.Interesting. Telekinetic Boomerang would seem to serve the same purpose as Lightning Ricochet, which might tie in with my Expansion+Rend suggestion above, though without Troll regeneration I suppose maybe it doesn't matter.

[Goaty14]

Not a feat, but the total defense action could use some love.

[atemu1234]

The feats from Drow of the Underdark that let the person with them see in magical darkness; sadly useless now that I've switched to pathfinder...

[Nebuul]

Vow of (Poverty/Peace)

So disruptive and useless, but er meh gerd do they have some kind of crazy appeal.

[SirNMN]

The majority of feats that have a "family," which usually either require that you take a million of them or get better when you take more of them (Heritage feats, Abyssal Heritor feats, Devil-Touched feats, Combat Form feats, Aberrant feats, Host feats, Deformity feats, even Luck feats, etc.) .

I think there are 2 or 3 Luck feats can be gotten through location so you can get enough to make it worth while with that since lets you get around the 1 per 3 levels. If you want to make the use of the devil-touched feats play a hellbred of the body 3 devil touch feat + any you pick out make for fun especially along side vow of poverty feats for days.


Fling Ally

Goliath staring at the gnome: "someone should scout that cave"
Gnome: your right, not me though.

Gnome is thrown into goblin cave with encouragement from the goliath to do a good job.

I have seen this played on someone who was acting as a body guard and would throw his charge to safety when things got to hot


Vow of (Poverty/Peace)

So disruptive and useless, but er meh gerd do they have some kind of crazy appeal.

I fear I use this quite a bit so I can just take my share of the gold and use it to make friends with the downtrodden in what ever city we go to. Get it at level one them take nymphs kiss and you can have loads of skill points.

[Ravens_cry]

Except for a few cases *coughspikedchaincough* Exotic Weapon Proficiency is soooo not worth it, and yet . . . and yet I can't help but love it all the same to help your character stand out from the crowd a little and perhaps get some lacklustre extra combat options in the process, or maybe not.

[KillingAScarab]

Not a feat, but the total defense action could use some love.

Except for a few cases *coughspikedchaincough* Exotic Weapon Proficiency is soooo not worth it, and yet . . . and yet I can't help but love it all the same to help your character stand out from the crowd a little and perhaps get some lacklustre extra combat options in the process, or maybe not.These two go together with the broadblade short sword from Complete Adventurer. Along similar lines, I like the idea of melee evasion from Player's Handbook II, since unlike Neverwinter Nights' parry mode you can still try to attack.