[3.5] Eberron: extra demiplane cosmology

[mattie_p]

So I managed to wrangle my players up from level 1 to level 5 and they took the hook that went down the "Eyes of the Lich Queen" adventure. So we're set until level 10. The thing is, there's very little in the way of published 3.5 adventures in Eberron beyond that level.

So I'm crowdsourcing a little creativity and asking for help.

Their current patron is working on behalf of the prince of Cyre, and I'm using that adventure path to ultimately suggest they might find the cause (and maybe cure) the Day of Mourning. I've done a lot of online reading for theories and ideas on that one singular day.

In 4e, the Day somehow corresponds with the appearance of Baator in the Astral Sea. I'm a stickler in some ways, but the idea that the Day caused it's appearance, or that it's manifestation caused the Day, is appealing to me.

However, I dislike the appearance of only one demiplane. If we're doing Eberron, there should be a Baker's dozen, 12 that are somehow available and 1 that is not.

I'm asking for suggestions for "traditional" planes that are otherwise omitted in some way from the cosmology of Eberron and might be suitable for introduction at the same time.

I do believe that somehow, in some fashion, in my version of Eberron, the demiplane eruption is integrally linked to the disappearance of Cyre, and it's resolution might be found there.

I like Baator, and I like Sigil. What other planes could be introduced to fill perceived gaps in the cosmos?

[Falontani]

Ravenloft is one that I've always though should have been a demiplane rather than a land in Greyhawk.

You could easily contain one or more of the demon lords in their own personal domains.

Paraelemental planes.

An Incarnum plane

[timeeater14]

MotP had the Plane of Mirrors.
Demonweb Pits.
Elder Evil's Serpent Reliquary, possibly merged with that abyssal layer with the snake demons.

[Nifft]

In terms of 4e cosmology, I'd note that many 4e innovations were simplifications of what Eberron had already done, so I don't recommend using 4e cosmology in Eberron.

In terms of Eberron's own cosmology, one nice thing about Eberron is that you don't need to leave the planet at high levels -- the big evils & biggest forces for good are on Eberron with you -- and there's no "enforced mundane stasis" which is preserved by putting all the fun high-level stuff on other planes.


High-level play in Eberron could be:

- Delving into Khyber, where Daelkyr and Overlords are imprisoned. The worst fiends in the planet's history were natives.

- Visiting Sarlona, where you're up against an evil empire ruled by nightmares.

- Exploring Xen'Drik, where epic cosmology-shaking magic was most recently used (and might be unearthed).

- Acting like a tourist in Argonnessen, where there's a literal army of dragons. Maybe some of them don't want the PCs to discover whatever it is that caused the Mourning.


If you want to do demi-planes anyway, then I'd suggest using the 12 moons (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050307a) as starting points -- perhaps Ravenloft is actually the lost 13th moon, somehow corrupted by an Overlord in an attempt to escape from the depths of Khyber.

If demiplanes are somehow linked to the 12 moons, then perhaps the "Astral Sea" is actually Siberys -- when you astral project, you're actually visiting a magical representation of the ring that surrounds Eberron.

Alternately, perhaps demiplanes are stagnant dreams -- a Quori experiment, attempting to create a self-sustaining independent dreamscape, which they'd considered using to escape their next turning of the Age. Perhaps Ravenloft is the nightmare demiplane of several dreaming Overlords.

[unseenmage]

There's the counterpoint to the Plane of Shadow called the Plane of Radiance in one of the Dragon Magazines.

Check out the back of the Manual of the Planes you'll find a Plane of Spirit as found in Rokugan.

I've always been partial to the Plane of Mirrors and Plane of Dreams myself, though it is my understanding that Eberron already has a dream plane.

There's an article off the old WotC site that details the Blood Elemental from a quasielemental demiplane of blood.

[mattie_p]

I thank everyone who has contributed their opinions so far.

I personally own 0 dragon or dungeon magazines, I hope to rectify this in the future. So maybe in the future?

I'm not using 4e generic cosmology. I'm, instead, drawing from a 4e source to inspire 3.5. the base source is Eberron, which is weird anyway.

The moons already have significance, and I hesitate to add demiplanes directly associated with the moons, but I think that they indirectly play with things.

In my opinion, Cyre is stuck in the 13th demiplane which is only accessible through another of the new 12.

This is not set in stone, I'm looking for big picture at this point in

[Nifft]

In my opinion, Cyre is stuck in the 13th demiplane which is only accessible through another of the new 12.

This is not set in stone, I'm looking for big picture at this point in

Yours is the opinion that matters, after all. :smallwink:

Here's a question which might inform your demiplanes: if regular planes orbit Eberron, what do the demiplanes orbit around?

[mattie_p]

Yours is the opinion that matters, after all. :smallwink:

Here's a question which might inform your demiplanes: if regular planes orbit Eberron, what do the demiplanes orbit around?

perhaps each demiplane is a moon for each plane?

That would offer some symmetry

[Nifft]

perhaps each demiplane is a moon for each plane?

That would offer some symmetry

That's a cool idea.

For peak Eberronic™, you'd probably want 12 known demi-planes orbiting around each proper plane, and also one lost demi-plane each.

... and then since there are 12 lost demi-planes, you'd probably want a 13th double-lost demi-plane, maybe that's Ravenloft and maybe that's where the Traveler's from... or just where the Traveler's gifts tend to send people.


Baator might be a demi-plane orbiting Shavarath (the battleground).

Sigil might be a demi-plane orbiting Daanvi (the perfect order), given how ruthlessly lawful its Lady seems to be, how regular its days are, and how its geometric form is a perfect torus.

The Demi-Plane of Wood might be a demi-plane orbiting Lamannia (the twilight forest).

The Demi-Plane of Mirrors might be a demi-plane orbiting ... hmm, where would it be? I can think of several viable possibilities.

Neth might be a demi-plane orbiting Xoriat (the plane of madness). Perhaps Neth is the personification of the stunted morality & conscience that Xoriat lacks.



... hmm, or perhaps a demi-plane is a glob of planar matter that oscillates around two or more proper planes?

The Demi-Plane of Ectoplasm (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030725a) might orbit both Dal Quor and Dolurrh, since ectoplasm is associated with both psionic powers and the dead.

Baator might orbit both Shavarath and Fernia.

The Plane of Shadow might be a demi-plane which orbits Mabar and Thelanis, a place of dark trickery which can be used by mortals but at great risk.

Quasi / Para Elemental planes might also be demi-planes in this cosmology: Radiance (Irian + Fernia), Ash (Fernia + Mabar), etc.

[mattie_p]

Nifft, that post if full of awesomeness. Love where you are at.

I'll have to do some rough sketches of laying this out but that's an afternoons chore and I'd be done.

I'm not going to worry too much about orbital mechanics and the like, Eberron is pretty vague about the details anyway and basically presumes that if the plot requires Fernia to be coterminous, then it simply is. Or if the DM needs a manifest zone somewhere, lo and behold, there it is.

Reason I'm sketching it out this way is that it's just possible for Cyre to have survived and have been translocated entire to another plane, perhaps that double lost demiplane, and requires unusual magic to contact. The players might want to continue to investigate Cyre, or maybe not. Either way I'll be a step ahead of them like I always try to be.

[Clistenes]

Mount Celestia could be a demiplane created by beings who wanted to trascend their natures and go beyond the Eberronian cosmology. Keith Baker mentioned that now and them some Outsiders can go beyond their natures and become something else (hence fallen Celestials like those in Sharn and rogue fiends like the Succubus and Pit Fiend members of the Lords of Dust)... what if some of those exceptional Celestials created a demiplane that is a literal Ascension Machine? If you even feel like you can Be More, you go to Mount Celestia, and start climbing the Mountain...

Carceri could be a prision for defeated powerful beings... sort of like Baator, but it works better at keeping the immates restrained... So you want to get rid of an Overlord forever, beyond even the reach of the Draconic Prophecy? That's the place to put it. Same for fallen Celestials, defeated powerful Fiends, Daelkyr invaders,...etc.

Elysium could have been created as an artificial afterlife. An artificial Heaven created from a slice teared away from Dolurrh, infused with Syberian power syphoned from the Ring and transformed into a paradise... that still is a Lotus Eating Machine of sorts...

I would suggest that, in addition to the regular Demiplane-creating spells from 3.5 you make the Demiplanes function as permanent Manifest Zones to more than one Plane, syphoning power from them... for example, you could use the combined energies of Irian, Syrania an Lammania to power the Elysium demiplane, or the combined energies of Irian, Syrania and Daanvi to power the Mount Celestia demiplane...

[Afgncaap5]

If you need a filler demiplane, you might pick up Bytopia from Greyhawk as a model. Two planes that fit over each other always struck me as very book-like. Perhaps a real book of this sort must be opened to reach Bytopia, maybe in a lost library in the faerie castles of Thelanis or feyspires (since a bit of 4e is on the table), or for something more approachable, perhaps in a library in Zilargo or one that was lost in Cyre.

[Nifft]

Nifft, that post if full of awesomeness. Love where you are at.

I'll have to do some rough sketches of laying this out but that's an afternoons chore and I'd be done.

I'm not going to worry too much about orbital mechanics and the like, Eberron is pretty vague about the details anyway and basically presumes that if the plot requires Fernia to be coterminous, then it simply is. Or if the DM needs a manifest zone somewhere, lo and behold, there it is.

Reason I'm sketching it out this way is that it's just possible for Cyre to have survived and have been translocated entire to another plane, perhaps that double lost demiplane, and requires unusual magic to contact. The players might want to continue to investigate Cyre, or maybe not. Either way I'll be a step ahead of them like I always try to be.

Delighted to assist.

In terms of orbital mechanics, the value isn't that you as a DM need any such thing -- it's so you can drop hints for your players, so they can work out whatever puzzle you end up designing for them. Eberron already thinks of planes as "orbiting" the real world, so it's conceptually easy to fold demi-planes into that somehow.

Having demi-planes orbiting the real planes means you can do stuff like:
- Demi-planes are reachable on the day(s) when the parent plane is furthest from Eberron, since the orbit around the parent plane is roughly the same "size".
- Demi-planes which orbit two parent planes can be reached when one of the parents is manifesting, but from a manifest zone of the other parent plane.
- Every plane has manifest zones of its own, where you can jump off into a shared demi-plane. The spells & tools that you used to find the first manifest zone are still relevant, and you can get to planes that aren't currently manifesting by jumping through other planes.
... or similar.


In terms of Cyre being swapped with another demi-plane, the mist and healing suppression seems a bit like Hades.