Warblade+Master of the Nine Build Help.

[Master of None]

I'm looking to play a Warblade in an upcoming campaign as it is the most interesting of the three classes of that book imo, and possibly my favorite class theme wise. I want to aim for going into Master of the Nine but I'm not sure where I should begin to start optimizing my build. I would prefer to stay Warblade/Master of the Nine as much as possible.

[GrayDeath]

What matter/Level of optimization are we talking about here? And is Mot9 the only Prestige CLass you want to have?

I mean the obvious path is taking a Level of Swordsage to get the additional Disciplines (I`d suggest Shadow Hand and depending on the aim of the class a second non Warblade Discipline).

With that and taking the necessary feats you can enter Mot9 at your earliest convenience.

Now as soon as you tell me what your aim with the build is, I can make more than general maneuver suggestions.

General: Diamond Mind main Discipline (Save replacers and Touch AC Attacks), Iron heart SSUrge (obviously), Shadow Hand Concealment and Shadow Teleports, some Desert Wind as Ranged alternative, rest as you like it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I recommend going Warblade 2/ Crusader 1/ Warblade 4/ Master of Nine, to use the Idiot Crusader method to be able to use a few powerful maneuvers learned from Master of Nine every round.

Crusader only has six 1st level maneuvers it can learn, and you can't learn the same maneuver twice. Your first four Warblade maneuvers should be all four 1st level Stone Dragon and White Raven maneuvers, so you'll only be able to learn the two 1st level Devoted Spirit maneuvers with Crusader. Those two Crusader maneuvers will be refreshed and re-granted every round of combat.

Pick up Extra Granted Maneuver and apply both of the Master of Nine +1 known/+1 readied and one of the +2 known/+1 readied toward Crusader maneuvers known/readied. Every time a Crusader's readied maneuvers increases, their granted maneuvers increase, so you'll eventually have six Crusader maneuvers known, two of which are 1st level Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and all six will be refreshed and granted every round.

You'll probably need to go Human with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Dragon Magazine has some good ones (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) to have enough feats to do everything. You can use the Warblade 5 bonus feat on either Improved Initiative or Blind-Fight, you can spend your Human feat, two flaw feats, and 6th level feat on the other four Master of Nine prerequisites, you'll want Item Familiar at 3rd (see below), you'll need to get Extra Granted Maneuver at 9th, so that leaves your 1st level feat for Power Attack or similar and your 12th+ level feats for whatever else you want.

This build is actually the method used to cut fireballs in half, make your sword hum so loud it disrupts a Wail of the Banshee, and similar extraordinary feats of martial prowess. This is one of the least powerful gimmicks to use the Master of Nine Idiot Crusader trick on, but it also happens to be one of the coolest things any character can ever do. Use Master of Nine to gain Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body as Crusader maneuvers usable every round, get an item that grants a continuous effect of the spell Undersong (SC) so you can use a Perform check in place of a Concentration check, and max out Perform: Weapon Drill (CW) so you can succeed at any saving throw by flourishing your weapon (but only one save each round). You can use an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)'s invest skill ranks ability to get an absurd bonus toward that skill, and as an intelligent item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm) you can add Undersong continually active priced as the Deathwatch continually active lesser power (same level, same duration). Of course your item familiar would be your weapon, and spend an extra 50 gp on it to make it a masterwork tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) that gives you +2 on Perform: Weapon Drill checks made with it.

That leaves you with one more Crusader maneuver known (from any discipline) that's usable every round, which can be a 4th level maneuver if you apply Master of Nine's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels toward Crusader maneuvers known/readied, or 5th level if you apply Master of Nine's 2nd, 4th, and 5th levels toward Crusader. I'd definitely pick Dancing Mongoose for that, so apply the 2nd, 4th, and 5th levels of Master of Nine toward Crusader.

If you're able to use Dancing Mongoose every round (from 12th level), you'll want to fight with two weapons, so either a two-handed weapon and armor spikes, or a two-handed weapon and a natural weapon such as a bite or gore attack. I'd take TWF at 12th level if using armor spikes as an offhand weapon, and pick up Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) by then, which can have an Enhancement bonus to Str and/or Dex added per MIC p234. That way you'll be making four attacks with your primary weapon (five with haste), and four attacks with your armor spikes (or two with a natural weapon). If you'd rather have EWP instead of Power Attack at 1st, use a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer in MM IV p101.

[Long_shanks]

One level in Swordsage is almost compulsory for Master of Nine. The prereqs are insane (you need five feats, four of them being taxes..., forty skill ranks and maneuvers or stances in six disciplines) and swordsage helps with the skills and maneuvers.

I would go Swordsage at level 1 for the x4 skills, grab some shadow hand and either desert wind or setting sun maneuvers, then warblade until you fulfill the prereqs.
So, Swordsage 1/ Warblade 6/ Master of Nine 10/ Warblade 7-9 would be a decent starting block. Or you can always take Warblade 7 before entering Master of Nine if you have a decent Int score to get Battle cunning at level 8 instead of 18.

[Malimar]

I would go Swordsage at level 1 for the x4 skills
You mean the x6 skills.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Crusader only has six 1st level maneuvers it can learn, and you can't learn the same maneuver twice. Your first four Warblade maneuvers should be all four 1st level Stone Dragon and White Raven maneuvers, so you'll only be able to learn the two 1st level Devoted Spirit maneuvers with Crusader. Those two Crusader maneuvers will be refreshed and re-granted every round of combat.

It doesn't work that way. Much like spellcasters every initiator class has a separate list of maneuvers known.


Every time a Crusader's readied maneuvers increases, their granted maneuvers increase
This is not quite right. A Crusader's granted maneuvers start at 2 and increase by +1 each at level 10 and 20.
If a PrC adds maneuvers readied it also adds the same number of granted maneuvers though, so it's more of a nitpick in this case.


and all six will be refreshed and granted every round.
Also wrong. You only get more than 1 granted maneuver at the start of the encounter. It's always only 1 per round after that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It doesn't work that way. Much like spellcasters every initiator class has a separate list of maneuvers known.

Yes it does. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060830a)


Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?

A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

[Pex]

Ask your DM if he would allow the unarmored variant of Swordsage. That saves you a feat because that gives you Unarmed Strike for free upon multiclassing. It would be good to multiclass two levels in Swordsage for the feat, lots of maneuvers for the prerequisite to Master of Nine, and fix your stance progression so that the level you get a new stance corresponds to the maneuver level a stance exists of your highest maneuver level you can take. Use Master of Nine to increase your Warblade maneuvers since Warblade has a better recovery system. Swordsage would be for maneuvers you'd likely only want to use once in a combat anyway.

[Master of None]

A little more information, (didn't expect this to explode so quickly) I'm making a level 8 character. The goal for this character is to essentially be THE Master of the Nine. I've talked to my DM and we've come up with some homebrew stuff mostly for RP flair, (like a tenth legacy weapon.) I would like to be able to use as many disciplines as possible and as effective as possible along with that. I'm not too fond of the Crusader but I am fully willing to multiclass. I am able to go with the Swordsage variant if need be. I would like it to be optimized but at the same time understand when enough is enough and don't want to go too overkill. Thanks for all the suggestions and help and for the quick replies! You guys are awesome and I look forward to read what else you have to say!

[Master of None]

Character is looking to be a "master" of each disciplines weapons. I guess lore wise I'm basically making Reshar.

[Nifft]

Idiot Crusader doesn't work at all outside of TO, and this thread isn't TO so Idiot Crusader seems a bit off-topic.


A little more information, (didn't expect this to explode so quickly) I'm making a level 8 character. The goal for this character is to essentially be THE Master of the Nine. I've talked to my DM and we've come up with some homebrew stuff mostly for RP flair, (like a tenth legacy weapon.) I would like to be able to use as many disciplines as possible and as effective as possible along with that. I'm not too fond of the Crusader but I am fully willing to multiclass. I am able to go with the Swordsage variant if need be. I would like it to be optimized but at the same time understand when enough is enough and don't want to go too overkill. Thanks for all the suggestions and help and for the quick replies! You guys are awesome and I look forward to read what else you have to say!

Warblade gets access to 5 disciplines, so you'd just need a feat or two to get into Master of Nine, but you won't have many prereqs for the other 4 disciplines.

Warblade / Crusader gets access to 6 disciplines, so you've got access to Mo9, but there's a lot of overlap -- still, you get both Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit, which can be quite good. Also, with just 4 Crusader levels you've got Steely Resolve 10, which is a perfect match for Stone Power and effectively reduces the damage you take by 10 each round.

Warblade / Swordsage gets access to 8 disciplines, which is most of them. Two to four levels of Swordsage gets you Wis to AC in light armor, plus 9 maneuvers -- more than enough to stock up on prereqs in their 3 exclusive disciplines. Five levels of Swordsage would get you another +1 to Initiative (which is nice), and a third Stance, but it would cost you -2 BAB instead of just -1, and you get the best value from having EVEN levels of foreign classes... but you must have an odd number of levels in one of your two classes, since Mo9 is 5 levels long, so maybe it's not that bad.


IMHO the best prefix is Swordsage 2 / Warblade 4, then add either more Swordsage or more Warblade depending on what maneuvers you want for level 8. Eventually you probably want to take +2 levels of Swordsage, but delaying them can get you better maneuvers, so pace yourself accordingly.

[Voltage]

I know you're trying not to multi class too much, but Mo9 pretty much demands a multi class character.
If your DM OKs it, a level of Cloistered Cleric with the Time and Shadow or Darkness domains will get you both Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight as well as 8 skill points and let you snag Knowledge Devotion for free which IMO, is one of the most powerful feats in 3.5. Delaying Swordsage until level 5 also let's you start out with all 2nd lvl Swordsage maneuvers. You do loose out on another BAB this way, but Knowledge Devotion helps with that.

Cloistered Cleric1/Warblade3/Swordsage1/Warblade2 is how I would do that.

[Fizban]

A little more information, (didn't expect this to explode so quickly) I'm making a level 8 character. The goal for this character is to essentially be THE Master of the Nine.
I believe the phrase "true master of nine" has generally been adopted as the title for builds that get the 9th level maneuvers from all the nine disciplines. Which is basically impossible outside of certain builds with what I would call questionable rulings at least.

The easy mode entry is to use a Swordsage dip to fill out the prerequisites. I seem to remember it just barely being possible with pure Warblade to do the job with only feats, but it probably delayed entry. Other than that, it's really just a question of what you think are the best maneuvers and where to strike the balance of character synergy vs "having all the best maneuvers." Because if you try to focus on the standalone maneuvers that makes you visibly look like you've "mastered" everything, you're not going to have much synergy.

[Eldariel]

Djinn in Tonic built the Master of the Nine (http://web.archive.org/web/20080215000703/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897344) (all 9th level maneuvers) using item-based prerequisites while Darrin built one (http://web.archive.org/web/20151027211238/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1124486?page=3) that barely gets everything in time with PRC stacking and multiclassing. Neither is especially powerful and they spend basically all their build resources getting all the 9th level maneuvers, but they do a good job of getting some good stuff out of each school.

Of course, that may not be what you're going for. However, to enter Mot9 reasonably, you do need some multiclassing. It costs enough feats without burning extras on taking Martial Study a bunch of times. Mot9 itself is quite powerful; Counter Stance combines well with e.g. Stance of Alacrity and indeed, Immortal Fortitude, Aura of Perfect Order and company. Of course Stance of Alacrity itself is one of the best ways to use Counter Stance and of course both bleed into Dual Stance just fine.

[Darrin]

Djinn in Tonic built the Master of the Nine (http://web.archive.org/web/20080215000703/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897344) (all 9th level maneuvers) using item-based prerequisites while Darrin built one (http://web.archive.org/web/20151027211238/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1124486?page=3) that barely gets everything in time with PRC stacking and multiclassing. Neither is especially powerful and they spend basically all their build resources getting all the 9th level maneuvers, but they do a good job of getting some good stuff out of each school.


Gah! That's very old link. Heaven of Nine had to use flaws. I have an updated version called Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137260-3-5-ToB-Archon-of-Nine-All-9th-Level-Maneuvers) in my sig. It doesn't use flaws, but it does use Legacy Champion to leverage up your Initiator Level. As Fizban notes, some people might call shenanigans on the ruleswankery involved.



Of course, that may not be what you're going for. However, to enter Mot9 reasonably, you do need some multiclassing.

Well... A single-class Warblade needs six feats to get into Master of Nine. Fortunately, two of them are Warblade Bonus feats: Improved Initiative and Blind-fight. So Warblade 9/Master of Nine 5 is a decent entry. However, you have to burn your 1st/3rd/6th/9th feats on prereqs: Dodge (or Expeditious/Midnight Dodge), IUS, Adaptive Style, and Martial Study. Warblade 9/Crusader 1/Master of Nine 5 only needs three prereq feats. (It also leads into Idiot Crusader/WRT Spam, but you don't necessarily have to max out the cheese factor.)

There are several dips that can load you up with bonus feats. Cleric 1 taking the Time and Shadow/Darkness domains gets you Improved Initiative and Blind-fight. (Make it Cloistered to pick up Knowledge Devotion as well... hey, free bonus damage!) A Monk 2 dip can get three if you use the bonus feat rules from Oriental Adventures: IUS, Dodge, and Blind-Fight. Or you can use the Variant Fighting Styles in Unearthed Arcana to pick up Dodge or Improved Initiative. Barb 1 dip for Pounce or Barb 2 for Pounce/Improved Trip is also popular, but if you can live without Pounce, you can trade Fast Movement for Blind-Fight instead (Dragon Totem). If you prefer to keep pounce or can't mix Barb with Monk, then Knight of the Middle Circle 1 (Defenders of the Faith) offers Blind-fight as a bonus feat. Unarmed Swordsage has already been mentioned, but it's not entirely clear if it gets IUS by RAW. I'm rather fond of Battle Dancer 1 (Dragon Compendium) to pick up IUS. It doesn't quite pack in the same number of bonus feats as a Monk dip, but the alignment is compatible with Barb, full BAB, and Cha bonus to AC is nice. And of course there's always Fighter 2 or Feat Rogue 2.

But yeah, I'd suggest Warblade 9/Master of Nine 5 or Warblade 9/Crusader 1/Master of Nine 5.

[Eldariel]

Gah! That's very old link. Heaven of Nine had to use flaws. I have an updated version called Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137260-3-5-ToB-Archon-of-Nine-All-9th-Level-Maneuvers) in my sig. It doesn't use flaws, but it does use Legacy Champion to leverage up your Initiator Level. As Fizban notes, some people might call shenanigans on the ruleswankery involved.

I frankly consider Heaven of Nine the most table friendly; Legacy Champion shenanigans are pretty RAW solid but I'd never consider bringing one to a table since advancing classes beyond their caps is just kinda silly. Flaws, on the other hand, I've seen allowed in the majority of the games I've played in and the consensus seems to be that they're quite a solid addition to the game. Sadly there's the tidbit about refluffing RKV for a specific domain combination which is a bit less handwavable but all the same, I'd give it a semi-pass. Definitely the best anyone's ever done making it happen with the least shenanigans involved.

[Darrin]

I frankly consider Heaven of Nine the most table friendly; Legacy Champion shenanigans are pretty RAW solid but I'd never consider bringing one to a table since advancing classes beyond their caps is just kinda silly.


Yes, I agree using Legacy Champion to advance a class beyond its printed class levels is dodgy, but Archon of Nine only advances Swordsage. It takes all 5 level of Master of Nine but doesn't go beyond that.



Flaws, on the other hand, I've seen allowed in the majority of the games I've played in and the consensus seems to be that they're quite a solid addition to the game. Sadly there's the tidbit about refluffing RKV for a specific domain combination which is a bit less handwavable but all the same, I'd give it a semi-pass.

Archon of Nine also avoids RKV, but yeah... There's an Adaptation section that suggests refluffing for other deities, but that combo of domains doesn't really appear in print... Mostly because Time/Darkness/Shadow are all pretty rare domains. Kinda dodgy, unless you can get Time or Shadow into one of th "worship a pantheon" domain.

[Eldariel]

Yes, I agree using Legacy Champion to advance a class beyond its printed class levels is dodgy, but Archon of Nine only advances Swordsage. It takes all 5 level of Master of Nine but doesn't go beyond that.

In this case I find the problem is getting more than 1 IL per level, which is purely because ToB multiclassing already accounts for the "secondary benefits" for advancing other classes. Which is kinda...eh. Getting more IL in an off-class than the adept class just feels stupid.


Archon of Nine also avoids RKV, but yeah... There's an Adaptation section that suggests refluffing for other deities, but that combo of domains doesn't really appear in print... Mostly because Time/Darkness/Shadow are all pretty rare domains. Kinda dodgy, unless you can get Time or Shadow into one of th "worship a pantheon" domain.

Aye. Though I wouldn't put it past a DM to assign those domains since they're generally in books that just contain domains but don't list the deities that get them. Of course, "worship a concept" always works.

[Doctor Awkward]

Yes it does. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060830a)


Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?

A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.


I've poured over the book looking for a justification for this ruling.

Every description of maneuvers can't seem to help but mention how they are "like spells", but just a little bit different.

The book is quite clear on page 40, under "Recovering Expended Maneuvers" that:


Multiclass Martial Adept: A character with two or more
martial adept classes keeps track of his readied maneuvers,
expended maneuvers, and recovery of expended maneuvers
separately for each class.

But that doesn't explicitly mention anything about how learning them works on a multiclass martial adept. In fact the book does not seem to broach the subject at all.

Since we all know that a character with levels in more than one spellcasting class can certainly have the same spell prepared/known on both of his lists, I personally don't see any reason why it should be different for martial adepts.

Considering CustServ's well-earned reputation for inconsistency, I would also take that ruling with a heavy dose of salt.
...Unless of course that was one of the actual authors making a clarification that didn't make it into the book.