Best advancement for a Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer

[Matrix_Walker]

Just started in a new game beginning at level 2.

Ability Score rolls : 18 - 16 - 14 - 14 - 12 - 11

I chose half elf for my race (I'm thinking Elven Accuracy at Pally 4). For the initial build, I took Pally 1 first for heavy armor, then Hexblade 1 for Hex Warrior and Hexblade's curse.

STR 15 (14+1) - DEX 14 - CON 16 - WIS 12 - INT 12 (11+1) - CHA 20 (18+2)


The GM is likely to let me switch around the character if I want to switch my order or start single classed.

I first intend to take him to Pally 6 / Hexblade 2, and then turn left at Sorcerer for the remainder of his career, getting Metamagic online at level 11. I'm having trouble deciding when to take the second level of Warlock.

So I'm checking with the hive mind to find out the popular opinion on whether tripleclassing this is spreading him too thin, and if not the best order to do it.

[Finlam]

I am playing the same type of character in a campaign right now. I am running Oathbreaker 6/Hexblade 1/Shadow Sorc 1. The character was made to be the SADest tank ever, and boy does it do it. For me, continuing Paladin is too nice to give up with another +CHA to damage, an ASI, and 3rd level spells coming over the course of the next 3 levels.

The Oathbreaker level 7 aura is really nice though. Do you know which type of Paladin you'll be playing?

Which party role are you going for?

I can see picking up Warlock 2 for Agonizing Blast if you decide that you are in need of a potent and spammable ranged option. Darkness and Devils Sight is an OK combo, but is severely over-rated on these boards as it does not mesh well with all party types and can be a hindrance to party effectiveness in some combats.

Do you see this character as a straight melee gish? Will you be switching to a blaster/gish role?

In either case, you might do better to go Paladin 6/Warlock 1/Sorc 4 to pick Quicken Metamagic, Heighten Metamagic and the Warcaster feat. This optimizes your action economy, ensuring you can always use your bonus action, and you can deliver more potent opportunity attacks (in dire straights use can also quicken blade ward to increase your durability).

TLDR: If you see yourself as primarily a melee combatant, I would go at least to sorc 4 before taking a second warlock level.

[EDIT]
It's a bit beyond the scope of this discussion, but the in-depth write-up of the Paladin/Heblade/Shadow Sorc build can be found here (http://purplelizardman.com/finlam/5e_super_sad_tank/). It touches on level progression and spell selection and goes in-depth into action economy and ability synergy toward the goal of tanking/support. Even if it's not the exact character you're looking for, it should have some good thoughts to help you decide how to build.

[Jethro]

Gotta figure paladin 6 is the immediate goal - you get the aura and extra attack and level 2 paladin spells.

Warlock 2 should be next - 2nd pact magic slot and invocations.

After that it’s up to you, though I’d point out there’s a couple great breakpoints on the warlock build: 6) get the specter. Great for scouting and utility. 7) 4th level spells...specifically shadow of Moil. Like a super up and team friendly darkness. 10) armor of hexes 50% miss? Um, yes please. 11) a third pact slot. More smiting and spells and goodness. 12) lifedrinker invocation. Talk about a damage boost - by the time you’re here (level 18) it’s half of GWM without the negative to hit penalty. 14) can move the hex curse. Nuff said.

Sorcerer gives good stuff, but I don’t think it gives anything worth more than what you’d get going hexblade the rest of the way.

[Matrix_Walker]

Do you know which type of Paladin you'll be playing?

I'm thinking Devotion. I find the channel divinity options very lackluster in the other Sacred Oaths, and a +5 to hit will come in handy with my GM's tendency to inflate monster AC


Which party role are you going for?

The game is in a hobby shop and the other players may come and go to a certain extent, so I like to be ready to adapt. So far we have a Wizard (with one level of Life cleric for healing and armor) and a Barbarian. We are likely to have a few more payers showing up in the coming weeks, but at the moment it's a trio.

I'm probably going to be the face, and co-tank.


I can see picking up Warlock 2 for Agonizing Blast if you decide that you are in need of a potent and spammable ranged option. Darkness and Devils Sight is an OK combo, but is severely over-rated on these boards as it does not mesh well with all party types and can be a hindrance to party effectiveness in some combats.

That's the general idea, grab AB and a second short rest slot for bonus smites. I'm having a little trouble picking my second invocation. I'm not planning on using Darkness, but Devils Sight is still tempting... Repelling blast is always nice for a bit of battlefield control when needed.


Do you see this character as a straight melee gish? Will you be switching to a blaster/gish role?

In either case, you might do better to go Paladin 6/Warlock 1/Sorc 4 to pick Quicken Metamagic, Heighten Metamagic and the Warcaster feat. This optimizes your action economy, ensuring you can always use your bonus action, and you can deliver more potent opportunity attacks (in dire straights use can also quicken blade ward to increase your durability).

TLDR: If you see yourself as primarily a melee combatant, I would go at least to sorc 4 before taking a second warlock level.

I see him primarily as a melee combatant, but I want him to be able to blast away if he can't reach his target, or while he closes the distance.

Thanks for the advice!

[LordNibbler]

Get Warlock 3. Remember that Hex Warrior’s benefits to a normal weapon can only be applied once per long rest. If you have a DM who likes to disarm or take you prisoner, you lose your SADness if you don’t get your weapon back. This is not a problem if you take the blade pact.

[Citan]

Just started in a new game beginning at level 2.

Ability Score rolls : 18 - 16 - 14 - 14 - 12 - 11

I chose half elf for my race (I'm thinking Elven Accuracy at Pally 4). For the initial build, I took Pally 1 first for heavy armor, then Hexblade 1 for Hex Warrior and Hexblade's curse.

STR 15 (14+1) - DEX 14 - CON 16 - WIS 12 - INT 12 (11+1) - CHA 20 (18+2)


The GM is likely to let me switch around the character if I want to switch my order or start single classed.

I first intend to take him to Pally 6 / Hexblade 2, and then turn left at Sorcerer for the remainder of his career, getting Metamagic online at level 11. I'm having trouble deciding when to take the second level of Warlock.

So I'm checking with the hive mind to find out the popular opinion on whether tripleclassing this is spreading him too thin, and if not the best order to do it.


I'm thinking Devotion. I find the channel divinity options very lackluster in the other Sacred Oaths, and a +5 to hit will come in handy with my GM's tendency to inflate monster AC

The game is in a hobby shop and the other players may come and go to a certain extent, so I like to be ready to adapt. So far we have a Wizard (with one level of Life cleric for healing and armor) and a Barbarian. We are likely to have a few more payers showing up in the coming weeks, but at the moment it's a trio.

I'm probably going to be the face, and co-tank.

That's the general idea, grab AB and a second short rest slot for bonus smites. I'm having a little trouble picking my second invocation. I'm not planning on using Darkness, but Devils Sight is still tempting... Repelling blast is always nice for a bit of battlefield control when needed.

I see him primarily as a melee combatant, but I want him to be able to blast away if he can't reach his target, or while he closes the distance.

Thanks for the advice!
Hi!

So your priorities would be, if I understood well...
1/ Good melee
1/ Good resilience.
2/ CHA skills.
3/ Blasting
4/ Everything else.

Considering that, I'd suggest you the following:
IF you intend to use concentration spells, you could envision taking Sorcerer now and ditch heavy armor. Why?
a) Tripleclass means you will delay ASIs for a long time: good thing, you have great stats, so you could focus on feats. But you will probably have at most ONE until character level 11.
If you were only interested in Warcaster or Resilient: Constitution, then starting Paladin is fine.
If you were interested also by things like Shield Master, PAM, Mobile, Mage Slayer and whatnot, then tough choices will have to be made.
b) Having Constitution proficiency (and not "just" Warcaster) means not only great concentration for Shield of Faith or Bless, but also being less worried about all monsters that target you with nasty CON-effects such as reducing your life (good thing Paladins get immune to disease, and you have Lay on Hands, but still).
c) It also means you get Shield per long-rest right now. May or not be better than a short-rest slot, honestly YMMV.
d) you get 1 point less of AC, it's annoying but imo worth the cost.

If, however, you planned on mainly using slots for smiting then you can keep your starting Paladin.

Other points:
- Eldricht Blast is good, great even, but if you plan on going Paladin 6 ASAP, you won't need it that much. Don't forget that going Devotion means in the hardest fights, you will spend you first turn buffing yourself while closing in (Hexblade + Sacred Weapon). On the next round, unless your DM likes extremely dispersed encounters, you should be able to reach an enemy to strike.
- Eldricht Blast, damage-wise, really gets over the other cantrips once you get level 5 and learn Agonizing Blast. Without it you could easily wait up until level 11: again, because you are primarily a melee combatant, which wants to hold the front line to boot: so you will try to get into melee at all times, making the ranged attack a fallback for flyers or unreachable creatures.

Sorcerer, depending on your choice of archetype, may be worth investing into early:
- Shadow is the one of choice if you plan on using debuff spells like the smiting ones or Hold X later, thanks to Shadow Hound.
And you can use the Darkness trick without the Warlock invocation if need be. And you get extra chance at keeping alive.
- Divine Soul would allow you to use the Extended Aid trick as soon as Sorcerer 3, which could help your group survive. You could also use Extended Warding Bond on your Wizard to help him survive unforeseend hits while you are tanking (although it does make it more risky for you).
And you would also get Subtle Enhance Ability (good for your face-role, but not only) as well as Spirit Guardians later which is impressively good on a Pally. ;)

Sooooo... To summarize. If your conception of your character is...

1. Smack things on head as often as possible, attack from range otherwise. "Best help I provide to party is to kill as quickly as possible".
Start as you told, then go straight up Paladin 6, then take Warlock 2, then ponder at what Sorcerer to pick.

2. Be a party leader, that takes care of his people in many ways...
Divine Soul Sorcerer 1 > Paladin 1 > Hexblade Warlock 1 > Sorcerer 3 (Extend and either Subtle or Quickened) then either Sorcerer 5 or Paladin 6 > whatever.
The idea here is that you 'ditch' Extra Attack and Aura of Protection to instead rely on Booming Blade for mundane turns, using Cleric spells to protect your party and Sorcerer spells to be great in social/adventuring. Of course you "must" take Inspiring Leader with your ASI. ^^
As for whether Sorcerer or Paladin for higher level, it's really choosing between Spirit Guardians/Haste and Extra Attack (which is not important unless you went GWM) and Aura of Protection (which can be still much better even if your co-tank is a Barbarian: better than half-damage? None at all indeed ;)).
Spirit Guardians is using yet another action though, so it you go that way, I'd strongly suggest picking Quicken as your other metamagic (so first turn: full self-buff while closing in, second turn, quicken Spirit Guardians and engage).

3. Be a juggernaut that strikes doom on a few enemies.
This actually requires a kinda different build: put the extra point in WIS instead of INT to get 13 WIS, just enough to multiclass into Tempest Cleric.
Start as you told, pushing Paladin up to 3 at least. Then as soon as you want to get extremely nasty on a single enemy, dip Tempest Cleric 2, and pair Booming Blade (Warlock) with Thunderous Strike and Channel Divinity (and of course a smite). If you are not afraid of using all resources at once, get the Warlock Invocations that allows you yet another smite-like ability.

4. Be a swordsman that flurries enemies's corpses down.
Idea here is to rack up the number of attacks.
If you want to stick up with Devotion Paladin, then stop at 3 and instead get Bladesinger 6 ASAP (swiching stats to get 13 INT) to get both Extra Attacks and Haste. Of course this also means light armor and one-handed weapon. It's suboptimal.
Much simpler, just pick Vengeance Paladin instead of Devotion: you create competition for 1st turn's bonus action (Hexblade VS Sworn Enemy) but on the plus side, you get all Paladin goodies (spells + Extra Attack + Aura of Protection) AND Haste AND your Hexblade Warlock's main ability as fast as one could hope for.

All are viable ways, it will depend on your feelings about what you are gonna get in your campaign and as said your objectives: if getting as many attacks as possible is your main goal, Extra Attack should be a prioriy. If it's instead dealing as much sustainable damage as possible, then you can ditch it around unless your DM throws some crazy AC creatures at you: with just your stats you start with +7. At level 3 you could add Bless for another +2. At level 4 if Devotion you would add another +5. Do you really need that much that early? XD

[Finlam]

I see him primarily as a melee combatant, but I want him to be able to blast away if he can't reach his target, or while he closes the distance.

Thanks for the advice!
On the note of closing the gap:

Expeditious Retreat is a level 1 Warlock spell. It allows you to Bonus Action dash and has a bonus action cast time. I've found this to be extremely effective in combat as it allows the paladin to close huge distances quickly and, consequently, to always be exactly where he needs to be.

When weighed against Agonizing Blast I, personally, decided that I'd rather the character close into melee quickly where he can dish out his sweet, sweet melee damage and smites, rather than pew pew with Agonixing Blast.

That is how I solved the ranged attack problem on the paladin and in 18 sessions of play, I have not regretted it once.

[Citan]

On the note of closing the gap:

Expeditious Retreat is a level 1 Warlock spell. It allows you to Bonus Action dash and has a bonus action cast time. I've found this to be extremely effective in combat as it allows the paladin to close huge distances quickly and, consequently, to always be exactly where he needs to be.

When weighed against Agonizing Blast I, personally, decided that I'd rather the character close into melee quickly where he can dish out his sweet, sweet melee damage and smites, rather than pew pew with Agonixing Blast.

That is how I solved the ranged attack problem on the paladin and in 18 sessions of play, I have not regretted it once.
+10. Didn't remember that Warlock also had it, remembered only Sorcerer's...
But for a character that relies into melee, and that will have powerful standard attacks already (Booming Blade with maxed attack stat already), using concentration on Expeditious Retreat rather than on Bless or other buff spell is a great way to overcome the reach problem.
Of course you'll still have flyers problem, but then you know what?
IF flyers are just one problem in one round, basic cantrip or javelin is far enough an investment for that.
If flyers are an encounter-full problem, then good news: Sacred Weapon can be used on bows, so even with only a 14 DEX you'll still end as good as a Fighter with max DEX and Archery.
I forgot to point that out last time, but it's important, because it further reduces the need of investment on (Repelling/Agonizing) Eldricht Blast to cover corner cases.


ABOUT REPELLING BLAST
I'm among those who profess how great Repelling Blast is intrinsically, and it's among the first options I suggest when Warlock dips are involved, even before Agonizing. The thing is, for your particular character it would probably be overrated.
- When closing in, you probably rarely want to further the distance separating you from your target.
- When you are in close contact, you will get disadvantage if you use it, even if it's actually to help a pal.
- If you are really only a 3-man party, chances are you and Barb will be already the main attraction and Wizard will be far behind, in relative safety with a bit of smarts (take cover).
- Overall, it uses your action, an action which you will usually want because its the one that gives you the best potential damage, either with Booming Blade or Extra Attack, on which you can stack not only Hexblade but also smites or smite spells. So you are trading a good to high damage output, which may often heavily wound or kill a creature, for a chance to push an enemy out of the way of an ally (not you: confer what I said just above, better try and slay the enemy with powerful attack than repel him at disadvantage).
A good way to get around it is Quicken, but it's a very costly tactic and you'll have often other options for your bonus action anyways so best case you couldn't rely on it before having at least 4 levels of Sorcerer).

ABOUT AGONIZING BLAST
Sure it gets a hefty amount of additional damage. However, you won't get as good as hitting as when you use your main weapon, or even a bow as illustrated earlier. So, before level 5, it's basically useless.
If you can hit in melee, BB or Attack will be beyond better.
If you are at close range, a javelin will be close enough to equal and still let you get OA if you want to wield a shield.
If you are at long range, then it has a mild interest if you don't have Sacred Weapon still available.

At level 5, damage-wise, it's still greatly inferior to melee weapon attacks, because on those melee weapon attacks you have a much better chance to hit thanks to Sacred Weapon.
So use-case would only be unreachable creatures, confer above: unless you really enter a flyers-only fight unprepared, you have other options that don't warrant another level of delaying higher level Paladin or Sorcerer features.

Only at level 11 does it become good enough to be considered a worthy investment to use not only when nobody can be reached, but also when somebody could be reached but it currently too dangerous to face head-on.

[Matrix_Walker]

Thanks for the input guys... gives me some stuff to ponder.

The second invocation to go with AB is still vexing me!

[Jerrykhor]

Thanks for the input guys... gives me some stuff to ponder.

The second invocation to go with AB is still vexing me!

If you're not planning to go more than warlock2, then there's not many invocation choices available. I'd recommend Fiendish Vigor, or the EB invocations from XGTE.