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drawingfreak
2007-08-26, 02:54 AM
I'm trying to get a setting together and I am looking for an existing creature in the MMs to fill in an evil race slot. I tried the first Manual but saw nothing I liked.

Preferences

lizard(or better yet, dragon)-like humanoid
spell casters
non-extraplanear


I definitely want them to be a spell casting race. The rest can be botched if need be.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-26, 02:58 AM
lizard(or better yet, dragon)-like humanoid
spell casters
non-extraplanear


Um . . . Kobolds? They are all of the above, and have a prediliction towards spellcasting (particularly sorcerer). They are pretty much exactly what you are looking for.

drawingfreak
2007-08-26, 02:59 AM
Eh. Kobolds are...well...pathetic.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-26, 03:00 AM
Eh. Kobolds are...well...pathetic.

Not really. What do kobolds lose that a spellcaster needs?

BardicDuelist
2007-08-26, 03:01 AM
Eh. Kobolds are...well...pathetic.

Two words (well actually just one hyphanated one):
PUN-PUN

Even without that, kobolds are still fun. C'mon, if you can be completely underestimated, and then destroy your opponents with the fact that Spellcasters Are A Win Button.

Amiria
2007-08-26, 03:34 AM
Troglodytes ? -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int; 2 racial HD, +6 Natural Armor.

A bit clumsy and dull, but tough as nails. They make good non-Int based casters.

_____________

Poisondusk Lizardfolk from MM3 are also good. Small and stealthy, poison use, boni to Con, Dex and NA, malus to Cha, good non-cha based casters.

_____________

What about Yuan-Ti purebloods ?

Captain van der Decken
2007-08-26, 04:02 AM
Those Redspawn things from MMIV? I know one of them gets spells as a sorcerer.

Kaelaroth
2007-08-26, 04:03 AM
Athames, Changelings, Chaonds/Zenythri?

AslanCross
2007-08-26, 04:08 AM
Hobgoblins? MMV has enhanced Hobgoblins that have been transformed by arcane training into monstrous humanoids. Hobbo Warcasters and Warsouls are spellcasting monstrous Hobgoblins. They stick to the Wizard class. Spellscourges are anti-casters--monstrous Hobgoblins that get buffed when they successfully save against enemy spells.

Kobolds are actually really interesting if you read through the Draconomicon entry. They're meticulous trapmakers, hardworking miners (even moreso than Dwarves), disciplined warriors and have magic in their blood due to their draconic ties. Favored class: Sorcerer.

Kaelaroth
2007-08-26, 04:10 AM
The fabulous Tieflings? Not for sorcerers, but good wizards.

Townopolis
2007-08-26, 04:10 AM
Kobolds are only pathetic until the kobold sorcerer fireballs the area everyone's in and everyone takes full damage... except for the 3 kobold rogues, who take no damage with evasion and then proceed to eviscerate the party with sneak attacks.

bosssmiley
2007-08-26, 08:20 AM
Scaled casters? Yuan-ti. Massage the fluff to make them look more draconic than serpentine.

Or get "Serpent Kingdoms". :smallwink:

Solo
2007-08-26, 08:30 AM
Eh. Kobolds are...well...pathetic.
I have this 5th level Kobold wizard build I'd like you to play against sometime.....

Attilargh
2007-08-26, 08:37 AM
Eh. Kobolds are...well...pathetic.
They are, until the party finds themselves in a dungeon full of traps, murder holes, nastier traps, passages built for Small creatures, darkness, crossbow bolts, dead ends, caltrops, burning oil, downright lethal traps and smoke. With the only way out blocked by the burning corpses of their horses.

martyboy74
2007-08-26, 08:43 AM
I have this 5th level Kobold wizard build I'd like you to play against sometime.....

It's down to first level now.


They are, until the party finds themselves in a dungeon full of traps, murder holes, nastier traps, passages built for Small creatures, darkness, crossbow bolts, dead ends, caltrops, burning oil, downright lethal traps and smoke. With the only way out blocked by the burning corpses of their horses.

I don't recall Tucker's kobolds being spellcasters.

Attilargh
2007-08-26, 09:03 AM
Hey now, that'd be just cruel. Just think about it, "Tucker's full spellcasters".

The Glyphstone
2007-08-26, 11:08 AM
Hey now, that'd be just cruel. Just think about it, "Tucker's full spellcasters".


*Keels over and dies of pure terror*

drawingfreak
2007-08-26, 05:54 PM
Hmm, the Dracotaurs are looking kinda cool right now, though I was looking for something more humanoid. I also want this race to be more noble (should have added that before)...kinda like the goatee-universe (http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Mirror_universe) versions of elves. In my imagination, I saw a dragon-like humanoid sporting a long red robe and about to cast a spell.

Leliel
2007-08-26, 06:12 PM
The fabulous Tieflings? Not for sorcerers, but good wizards.
They aren't naturally evil(as stated in Planescape), but good call, none-the-less.

THIS ALIGNMENT-CLARIFYING MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE TIEFLING ANTI-DEFORMATION LEAGUE.

*the More You Know music plays*

Thinker
2007-08-26, 06:15 PM
Why does a race have to be evil? Why does there have to be an evil race? It seems like you just want something else that's green to be massacred for no real reason other than the PCs will know they're evil. If you had them simply be barbaric it might be better. There may even be evil cults or such that are attached to the culture without the entire culture necessarily being evil.

Rama_Lei
2007-08-26, 06:18 PM
You could just make an elf-like lizard creature. Eliminate the Elven Con penalty, boost the desired spell casting trait, etc.

Arameus
2007-08-26, 06:24 PM
Humans? :smallconfused:

Drider
2007-08-26, 10:43 PM
In Savage Species, There was a "bat-folk" that if you chaned sonar +blindsense out for natural armor and described as draconic, make badass clerics.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-08-26, 10:59 PM
Why not half-dragons? Just apply the template to a few human wizards/sorcerers and you're all set.

Jack Mann
2007-08-26, 11:11 PM
Basically, outside of kobolds, you're not going to find many reptilian races that make good spellcasters. Spellcasters take level adjustment and racial hit dice to the teeth. Losing even one caster level hurts. Losing three or four and you're not going to be worth much as a caster.

Besides, kobolds are actually really good as sorcerers. Better than just about any other race, in fact, if you can use some of the special abilities they get in Races of the Dragon and on the Wizards' site. A kobold sorcerer gets access to a new level of spells a level earlier than anyone else, if he goes through the proper ritual.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-08-26, 11:28 PM
Aren't NPC's/enemies a special exception to that rule? All that matters for them is the CR, as it determines what level they ought to be for the party to be able to fight them. An LA +3 is painful for a caster, but a CR +2? It just doesn't really count against them, does it?

Behold_the_Void
2007-08-26, 11:36 PM
I like the earlier suggestion of the Yuan-ti, those work well.

Jack Mann
2007-08-27, 12:00 AM
Once again, I misread the opening post.

Yeah, especially with the non-associated class levels rule, it can be worthwhile to use creatures with an LA. I'd still avoid ones with a lot of racial hit dice, if they don't get any spellcasting with 'em. You want their caster level fairly close to the party's level, if not a bit above (for your BBEG types). Otherwise, they're in danger of being identified more for their special abilities than their spellcasting.

AslanCross
2007-08-27, 06:02 AM
Hmm, the Dracotaurs are looking kinda cool right now, though I was looking for something more humanoid. I also want this race to be more noble (should have added that before)...kinda like the goatee-universe (http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Mirror_universe) versions of elves. In my imagination, I saw a dragon-like humanoid sporting a long red robe and about to cast a spell.

This?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dlcs_gallery/DLCS_PG216.jpg
Aurak Draconian from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Draconians made from metallic dragon eggs are twisted and evil, while Draconians made from chromatic dragon eggs become good. Auraks are made from gold dragons and are really powerful compared to other Draconian types, and are excellent sorcerers.

Skjaldbakka
2007-08-27, 06:14 AM
Yeah, especially with the non-associated class levels rule, it can be worthwhile to use creatures with an LA. I'd still avoid ones with a lot of racial hit dice

Actually, non-associated class levels don't interact with level adjustment. All it cares about is racial hit dice:


Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

Ashtar
2007-08-27, 06:21 AM
I love Lizardfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizardfolk.htm) they start out neutral as a race, but nothing stops them from being evil.
And I find willing evil (I choose evil of my own free will) to be more EVIL than compulsory evil (I am evil because MM says I am).

Lizardfolk can make decent druids, sorcerers and clerics. Maybe a bit less oriented towards wizards due to the -2 int.

Also, do consider yuan-ti, but they are not part of D20SRD due to Wizards considering them part of their IP.

drawingfreak
2007-08-27, 01:59 PM
This?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dlcs_gallery/DLCS_PG216.jpg
Aurak Draconian from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Draconians made from metallic dragon eggs are twisted and evil, while Draconians made from chromatic dragon eggs become good. Auraks are made from gold dragons and are really powerful compared to other Draconian types, and are excellent sorcerers.
:smalleek: Me love you long time...
...err, I mean, thank you. That is remarkable. I'll need to look into Dragonlance then.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-28, 12:18 AM
They aren't naturally evil(as stated in Planescape), but good call, none-the-less.

THIS ALIGNMENT-CLARIFYING MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE TIEFLING ANTI-DEFORMATION LEAGUE.

*the More You Know music plays*

Well, I'd imagine getting torn limb from limb by angry mobs counts as "deformation"...:smallwink: :smallbiggrin: