Clockwork Armor

[Promethean]

Why in the heck are the important servos and hydrolics of Clockwork Armor made of crappy materials like Steel and Bronze when the outer covering is Fracking Adamantine and Mrithral? What Artificer with any self respect would do that? Why would they fill the hydrolics with water of all things?

Mechanics-wise this makes some sense as a Balancing feature to excuse it being a Very cheap version of magical full plate with no ACP and a Stacking Bonus to STR/DEX(though seeing as it's supposed to be as rare as an Artifact and using it is supposed to mean an entire country is calling for your head, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it an artifact):smallconfused:

How much in game would it cost to replace the Cheap internal components of the armor? Adamantine/Mithral could probably prevent the whole "gears warping out of place thing, and replacing the water with a kind of oil will take care of the cold weakness(though with oil you'd be trading that for a fire weakness and using some kind of alchemical substance means wearing pipes full of poinson/acid that'll burst with damage).

Anyone else know of ways to trick out armor?

[Feantar]

Where is the clockwork armour from? I only found a version in the pfsrd but that doesn't specify adamantine or the political repercussions of wearing it, so I'm guessing it's not that one.

[Promethean]

Where is the clockwork armour from? I only found a version in the pfsrd but that doesn't specify adamantine or the political repercussions of wearing it, so I'm guessing it's not that one.

Clockwork Armor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a)

It's from the Wizards of the coast archives for Eberron. It's basically fantasy Prototype power armor

Edit: derp, wrong link. fixed

[Celestia]

Why in the heck are the important servos and hydrolics of Clockwork Armor made of crappy materials like Steel and Bronze when the outer covering is Fracking Adamantine and Mrithral? What Artificer with any self respect would do that? Why would they fill the hydrolics with water of all things?

Mechanics-wise this makes some sense as a Balancing feature to excuse it being a Very cheap version of magical full plate with no ACP and a Stacking Bonus to STR/DEX(though seeing as it's supposed to be as rare as an Artifact and using it is supposed to mean an entire country is calling for your head, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it an artifact):smallconfused:

How much in game would it cost to replace the Cheap internal components of the armor? Adamantine/Mithral could probably prevent the whole "gears warping out of place thing, and replacing the water with a kind of oil will take care of the cold weakness(though with oil you'd be trading that for a fire weakness and using some kind of alchemical substance means wearing pipes full of poinson/acid that'll burst with damage).

Anyone else know of ways to trick out armor?
Got it in one. It's about the crunch, not the fluff.

Now, I see no reason why you couldn't make a better one with adamantine gears, but that would be homebrew and something to discuss with your DM.

As for the hydraulics and energy weakness, oil would actually work well. Not all oils are easily combustible. Brake fluid, for example, is used in cars specifically because it is resistant to heat. So, depending on the type of oil used, there could arguably be no fire weakness.

On the other hand, it makes no sense why there is a cold weakness currently. Putting water in a high pressure environment (like a hydraulics system) lowers its freezing point. Chances are the metal would become brittle before the water freezes. So, you could just keep the water and argue the point if you have a DM willing to listen to reason.

[Lord Haart]

Well, if it's a prototype then… it's a prototype? A proof of concept doesn't need to be refined, it needs to show it works. You make outer plating out of adamantine and mithrail because impenetrability of the outer plating will be among the first things you'll be testing; you make inner workings out of steel and bronze because those are easiest to manufacture and to work with; and you fill hydraulics with water because it's actually a pretty great liquid for hydraulics (behaves fully like a Newtonian luquid, doesn't decay, degrade, never shows unequal distribution of density, isn't corrosive, etc.), and you can always test for other luquids later down the line.

Now why would any self-respecting artificer adventurer simply WEAR that prototype instead of going all like "With this poor yet working prototype and MY ideas, i will improve it a hundredfold!"… That's what i kinda don't get.

[Promethean]

Got it in one. It's about the crunch, not the fluff.

Now, I see no reason why you couldn't make a better one with adamantine gears, but that would be homebrew and something to discuss with your DM.

As for the hydraulics and energy weakness, oil would actually work well. Not all oils are easily combustible. Brake fluid, for example, is used in cars specifically because it is resistant to heat. So, depending on the type of oil used, there could arguably be no fire weakness.

On the other hand, it makes no sense why there is a cold weakness currently. Putting water in a high pressure environment (like a hydraulics system) lowers its freezing point. Chances are the metal would become brittle before the water freezes. So, you could just keep the water and argue the point if you have a DM willing to listen to reason.

As an Aircraft mechanic that reqularly works with Specialized Hydrolic fluid I can definitely tell you that the real world stuff is toxic, not something you want in an exo-suit.

Though your point about water pressure is actually pretty cool, and has a D&D example in riverine "metal"(it's actually water pressurized to the point it's as hard as metal, un-freezable, and is held in force effect casing for armor). Maybe Rivirine hydrolics with adamantine or psionically hardened mithral(via manipulate matter) for the components to prevent it warping and breaking


Well, if it's a prototype then… it's a prototype? A proof of concept doesn't need to be refined, it needs to show it works. You make outer plating out of adamantine and mithrail because impenetrability of the outer plating will be among the first things you'll be testing; you make inner workings out of steel and bronze because those are easiest to manufacture and to work with; and you fill hydraulics with water because it's actually a pretty great liquid for hydraulics (behaves fully like a Newtonian luquid, doesn't decay, degrade, never shows unequal distribution of density, isn't corrosive, etc.), and you can always test for other luquids later down the line.

Now why would any self-respecting artificer adventurer simply WEAR that prototype instead of going all like "With this poor yet working prototype and MY ideas, i will improve it a hundredfold!"… That's what i kinda don't get.

The proof of concept model vs prototype thing is actually opposite of what you said. In car manufacturing especially the "Proof of Concept" model is tricked out and improved as much as possible to serve as both a means of getting investors and businesses on-board with buying the idea and as a potential bargaining chip to get CEOs on board with the promise of a one of a kind super-car. "prototype" Models are normally the far downgraded version use as a template for "mass produced" models. The associated bugs are where a manufacturer finds out where it can scimp out on in order to make manufacturing cheaper.

For eberron this would make little sense. Either these suits never made it to "proof of concept" and were still experimental(meaning they should be like 1 or 2 buried in a xendrik lab, not randomly all over the place) or are in "Prototype" phase(meaning there should be 3 or 4 in a xendrik lab...), considering that the suits themselves have too many obvious flaws to be in mass production(while cheap for an adventuring party, the 27,000 gp price is Far to expensive for an army and the inherent drawbacks of the cheap internal components are still too lethal to be worth the price cut).

Then again I could also be looking a bit too deeply into a game about magic. Catgirl Holocaust aside, I like looking at all the ways one can tinker with items outside the bog-standard enhancement bonus dance.

[Fizban]

It's already stretching the "tech level" of the setting (at least of normal DnD) enough to allow the internals to be made in the first place, let alone making them out of the most difficult materials to handle. If your answer is "crafted with magic," then sure there's no reason (I like recursive Fabricate spells teching up to nanobots). Of course, upgrading from steel to adamantine isn't actually that much of an upgrade: only +33 hit points and +10 hardness, when there are plenty of things that can ignore or power attack through the hardness. The cost however, is quite enormous depending on how you'd figure it. And don't even get me started on "riverine."

You might be surprised at how often people completely ignore the price of something when it comes to giving them mass production fluff (or you might not). I'm not aware of them ever giving a price for creating warforged, but basically every construct or golem with a price is just thrown into anything based on monster stats rather than based on resources. Unless the cost is say, 100gp or less, there's no way mass production of warforged is actually feasible troop production- and since they're made of a bunch of special materials that almost certainly cost more than that . . . Eternal Wands cost thousands of gp and were supposedly handed out to Magewrights all over the place. The costs of basically every elemental vehicle are just plain massive, and conductor stones are once again not even priced, most likely because admitting that anything more expensive than steel+wood makes a train track untenable and would make the whole setting fall apart.

There are plenty of ways to figure resources. Personally I like the PHB2 affiliations or a simple "tax the peasants" approach (where peasant income can be figured a number of ways).

[Promethean]

It's already stretching the "tech level" of the setting (at least of normal DnD) enough to allow the internals to be made in the first place, let alone making them out of the most difficult materials to handle. If your answer is "crafted with magic," then sure there's no reason (I like recursive Fabricate spells teching up to nanobots). Of course, upgrading from steel to adamantine isn't actually that much of an upgrade: only +33 hit points and +10 hardness, when there are plenty of things that can ignore or power attack through the hardness. The cost however, is quite enormous depending on how you'd figure it. And don't even get me started on "riverine."

You might be surprised at how often people completely ignore the price of something when it comes to giving them mass production fluff (or you might not). I'm not aware of them ever giving a price for creating warforged, but basically every construct or golem with a price is just thrown into anything based on monster stats rather than based on resources. Unless the cost is say, 100gp or less, there's no way mass production of warforged is actually feasible troop production- and since they're made of a bunch of special materials that almost certainly cost more than that . . . Eternal Wands cost thousands of gp and were supposedly handed out to Magewrights all over the place. The costs of basically every elemental vehicle are just plain massive, and conductor stones are once again not even priced, most likely because admitting that anything more expensive than steel+wood makes a train track untenable and would make the whole setting fall apart.

There are plenty of ways to figure resources. Personally I like the PHB2 affiliations or a simple "tax the peasants" approach (where peasant income can be figured a number of ways).

Wouldn't it be easier to fabricate the various parts and then use shrink object for tiny machines? Though mass producing said machines would be a time/resource drain without something like a construct assembly line on hand.

The D&D economy is just one of those things balanced for players with the wealth of nine kings rather than a functioning economy. that's sort of my point too, if the clockwork armor was made in universe to be a unique(or at least very rare) piece of armor made by a master artificer, they'd go the "Extra Mile" of having it made with strong internal components as well. If it's supposed to be "mass Produced" it'd be an even cheaper version with steel outer plates to cut costs.

The only thing I can reason this thing as being in setting is as a political tool, a "look at what amazing weapons and solders we have" to show off to other countries when a king is too poor to afford enough adamantium to make a proper model.

It would make sense though if it were a political tool, using adamantium and mithral melted down from other items too make an intimidating outer casing that hides it's weaker interior. And it's interior is only functional enough to show off in front of other kingdoms before needing to come back for regular maintenance. It could also explain Cyre's protectiveness of the suits, if another country captures one they could not only find the ruse, but might even be wealthy enough to make a small number of "Perfected" models.:smallwink:

[Afgncaap5]

There's also a weird scarcity issue; adamantium is really great for most purposes, but finding a mountain that has a viable vein of it or an asteroid that brings it to ground from the stars that hasn't already been claimed can be tricky.

I mean, sure, I can *afford* the rarest, most durable element to ever crash to earth, but the local baron got it first and wants to make his Starmetal Golem. I mean, I could go stop him from making it, he's sacrificing villagers to get the blood required to power the thing, but the local resistance has already earmarked his experimental materiel for improving the state of things in their town once the baron's gone. Maybe I could buy it from them instead.

[ExLibrisMortis]

+4 strength, unusual bonus type: 2 * 16 000 = 32 000 gp. Reference: Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items, MiC 233; DMG 283.
+4 dexterity, unusual bonus type: 2 * 16 000 = 32 000 gp. Reference: Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items, MiC 233; DMG 283.
+5' movement, no bonus type: 2 * 5000 = 10 000 gp. Reference: quickness armour property, MiC 13.
+8 armour bonus: 3000 gp. Reference: sectioned armour, PlH 70.
Negating -5 ACP and 35% ASF: 9000 + 9000 + 500 + 600 + 1000 = 20 100 gp. Reference: mithril, DMG 283; +1 twilight nimbleness armour properties, MiC 13, MiC 15; feycraft, DMGII 275; githcraft, DMGII 276; caster armour Dragon #358 40.
Increasing maximum dexterity past +4: 300 gp. Reference: segmented armour; Dragon #358 42.

Or, you know, steal the hound of the hunt's Total Freedom ability (price: angry DM). Point is, I'd let you fix up the armour, removing all weaknesses, for a final price around 100 000 gp (at most), and let you enchant it on top of that (the twilight wouldn't count against the +10 maximum, it's only referenced to work out a price). It's just a really cool item. Maybe I'd designate it as armour of legacy for an artificer, and instead of adding more and more penalties, actually remove penalties over time.

Oh, and keep in mind there's another from of clockwork armour, in the form of the halfweight property, which uses "psionic circuitry, exceptional materials, and unbelievable articulation" to turn any armour into light armour. A +3 property, that, though it doesn't seem to affect ACP or ASF. Still useful for your full-plate swordsages and such.

[Zanos]

The proof of concept model vs prototype thing is actually opposite of what you said. In car manufacturing especially the "Proof of Concept" model is tricked out and improved as much as possible to serve as both a means of getting investors and businesses on-board with buying the idea and as a potential bargaining chip to get CEOs on board with the promise of a one of a kind super-car. "prototype" Models are normally the far downgraded version use as a template for "mass produced" models. The associated bugs are where a manufacturer finds out where it can scimp out on in order to make manufacturing cheaper.
You're talking about a "Concept Car", which is different than a "Proof of Concept." A Proof of Concept and a prototype are very similar, they're meant to be platforms on to which a new technology is displayed as being functional. A Concept Car is meant to advertise that new technology to customers and gauge reactions. It's not an R&D pet project, it's a marketing machine. A proof of concept for, say, an electric engine would probably just be a frame with an engine and some wheels, and not seen outside the R&D lab.

[Deophaun]

More specifically, a proof of concept shows that the principles you are working under are sound even if the resulting device itself is totally unusable. This is the first stage in physical development, if it is even necessary. A prototype then shows that you can make something practical out of those principles, and these are iterated upon to make them more and more practical (in more modern times with an eye towards mass production) until you get your Mark I into the hands of the customer.

This sounds more like a final product. The prototype of this armor would likely have adamantine and mithral gears until they figured out that if they switched the internals to iron and brass they could make twice as many.

[mattie_p]

We have many machines in my factory that have stainless steel skins or coats and have brass gears. Why? Because brass is good enough to do the job.

It's internal and not going to be exposed to the same stuff as the steel, fact is that cost is a factor. If brass can get the job done, it will, at 1/4 the cost

[Promethean]

We have many machines in my factory that have stainless steel skins or coats and have brass gears. Why? Because brass is good enough to do the job.

It's internal and not going to be exposed to the same stuff as the steel, fact is that cost is a factor. If brass can get the job done, it will, at 1/4 the cost

Problem is, in Clockwork Armor's case it Doesn't do the job. As seen by the fact it will break constantly if the user goes into battle with it on a regular basis(the item has a poor personal AC and the hardness of standard steel), and the fact that it can break mid battle in a way that'll completely bone you(do you prefer having a paralyzed limb, being rendered flat footed, and/or being forced to take a move action in a random direction each round for the rest of combat). The Internal components Are exposed, represented by the fact it has steel hardness even though it's covered in Adamantine and Mithral plates.

I honestly think the weaknesses were a bit shoe-horned in. You could also balance it by having it require some kind of power source, with the penalty for it running out being that it becomes a normal set of fullplate until a new source is found. That way players can have their super armor, have a balancing factor the DM controls, and you don't have players randomly getting benched, waiting to die/be saved mid combat.

[Fizban]

Wouldn't it be easier to fabricate the various parts and then use shrink object for tiny machines? Though mass producing said machines would be a time/resource drain without something like a construct assembly line on hand.
Shrink Item has a duration of 1 day/caster level, and that would cost approximately 4,000x as much materials. Fabricate doesn't actually care about size anyway: anything you can roll a skill check for, you can obviate the normal crafting rules via Fabricate. The best way to use it is a combination: Fabricate goes up to 10 cu. ft. in volume (so weigh out 10 cu. ft. of metal and figure it by weight instead) per caster level, for a minimum of 90 cu. ft. per cast. That's quite a lot of delicate parts made faster than anything else, you could easily keep up with the rougher assembly line for big parts that don't require Fabricate.

The main problem with Fabricate is "material of one sort into a product of the same material," which means the DM can read it as single material only, single object only, and ignore protests of "but I'm connecting them all with a wire so it's one item wah."


The only thing I can reason this thing as being in setting is as a political tool, a "look at what amazing weapons and solders we have" to show off to other countries when a king is too poor to afford enough adamantium to make a proper model.
It works just fine as long as you're not trying to use it as all-purpose gear:

The "freezing problem" (is that an Iron Man reference?) only happens when fighting against things with cold attacks that require saving throws which you can fail, and cold spells with saving throws are actually quite rare and out of favor for the most part- when have you ever seen anyone but a cold specialist pack a cold AoE?
Being able to attack the suit itself is actually a form of extra hit points: if they're attacking the suit with its hardness 10 instead of the wearer, the wearer gets to wail on them with impunity. Between Eberron's supposed top level of NPCs and PC WBL, you'd expect someone of 10th level in the suit, and even just 50 hit points before fail chances is a lot for a 10th level character.
And of course power armor is supposed to be about mowing down infinite mooks/standing up to things bigger than you. Mooks can't hit full plate AC and can't break the hardness of the suit, while the strength stacks with normal magical strength boosts (kinda like if you suddenly became an Orc) so you're even better once buffed, and a monster attacking the suit still gives you a couple rounds before it breaks -standard CR 10 monsters don't actually cut through hardness very well at all, so that 50hp is actually a lot more (its only two handed power attacking giants you'd have to worry about). And you could just repair the armor with repair spells. The armor has no listed max dex bonus, so the dex boost can by applied to a high dex character, who now has an AC cap of lots.
And if you want to optimize, nothing in the Hardening (SpC) spell says it doesn't work on magical objects, so the hardness is actually 15+. Or dig up Augment Object from Stronghold Builder's Guide and buff it to 20 hardness/200hp every day once the hp pool isn't cutting it anymore (though you'll need a ruling for that to improve the 50hp malfunction threshold).


Basically it has a devastating weakness to cold in exchange for way, way more stuff than you should be able to get even at the listed price, to the point that I'd seriously question where they pulled the price from. This makes it easy for the DM to shut down if needed (even the armor being attacked directly only happens if the DM says it does) and less attractive for min-maxers who are terrified of the weakness, but also allows the DM to just drop it in as a stealth buff/free offset for scarier enemies for one or more characters if that would be cool.

The price also puts it right in a very good place where you could have characters that have been a bit starved for gear (since 8th) or just lost some gear, coming up on the big WBL increase at 10th, and just give them the whole suit without having to backtrack any of their items (or give it out before starving them and starve them after). And since its armor, it won't interfere with a special weapon the player might have been focusing on. All in all, I think upon further examination its a really good item.

[Promethean]

Shrink Item has a duration of 1 day/caster level, and that would cost approximately 4,000x as much materials. Fabricate doesn't actually care about size anyway: anything you can roll a skill check for, you can obviate the normal crafting rules via Fabricate. The best way to use it is a combination: Fabricate goes up to 10 cu. ft. in volume (so weigh out 10 cu. ft. of metal and figure it by weight instead) per caster level, for a minimum of 90 cu. ft. per cast. That's quite a lot of delicate parts made faster than anything else, you could easily keep up with the rougher assembly line for big parts that don't require Fabricate.

The main problem with Fabricate is "material of one sort into a product of the same material," which means the DM can read it as single material only, single object only, and ignore protests of "but I'm connecting them all with a wire so it's one item wah."


It works just fine as long as you're not trying to use it as all-purpose gear:

The "freezing problem" (is that an Iron Man reference?) only happens when fighting against things with cold attacks that require saving throws which you can fail, and cold spells with saving throws are actually quite rare and out of favor for the most part- when have you ever seen anyone but a cold specialist pack a cold AoE?
Being able to attack the suit itself is actually a form of extra hit points: if they're attacking the suit with its hardness 10 instead of the wearer, the wearer gets to wail on them with impunity. Between Eberron's supposed top level of NPCs and PC WBL, you'd expect someone of 10th level in the suit, and even just 50 hit points before fail chances is a lot for a 10th level character.
And of course power armor is supposed to be about mowing down infinite mooks/standing up to things bigger than you. Mooks can't hit full plate AC and can't break the hardness of the suit, while the strength stacks with normal magical strength boosts (kinda like if you suddenly became an Orc) so you're even better once buffed, and a monster attacking the suit still gives you a couple rounds before it breaks -standard CR 10 monsters don't actually cut through hardness very well at all, so that 50hp is actually a lot more (its only two handed power attacking giants you'd have to worry about). And you could just repair the armor with repair spells. The armor has no listed max dex bonus, so the dex boost can by applied to a high dex character, who now has an AC cap of lots.
And if you want to optimize, nothing in the Hardening (SpC) spell says it doesn't work on magical objects, so the hardness is actually 15+. Or dig up Augment Object from Stronghold Builder's Guide and buff it to 20 hardness/200hp every day once the hp pool isn't cutting it anymore (though you'll need a ruling for that to improve the 50hp malfunction threshold).


Basically it has a devastating weakness to cold in exchange for way, way more stuff than you should be able to get even at the listed price, to the point that I'd seriously question where they pulled the price from. This makes it easy for the DM to shut down if needed (even the armor being attacked directly only happens if the DM says it does) and less attractive for min-maxers who are terrified of the weakness, but also allows the DM to just drop it in as a stealth buff/free offset for scarier enemies for one or more characters if that would be cool.

The price also puts it right in a very good place where you could have characters that have been a bit starved for gear (since 8th) or just lost some gear, coming up on the big WBL increase at 10th, and just give them the whole suit without having to backtrack any of their items (or give it out before starving them and starve them after). And since its armor, it won't interfere with a special weapon the player might have been focusing on. All in all, I think upon further examination its a really good item.

*the suit's AC is only 5 + wearer's dex bonus and deflection bonus, it doesn't get to add it's full plate bonus too it's own armor rating. Which is definitely in the hit-able range for mooks.

A few points I'm a bit confused about, 1. You're supposed to only damage armor if the enemy specifically attacks the armor itself? Welp, I should bring this up with my group as we've been making things unnecessarily hard on ourselves. 2. the freezing thing isn't for any cold spell with a relfex save, It's All cold attacks. The reflex save is completely separate from any spell save and is equal to 10 + the spells damage done to you(meaning if you're facing a high level caster could easily become impossible to make).

[Fizban]

*the suit's AC is only 5 + wearer's dex bonus and deflection bonus, it doesn't get to add it's full plate bonus too it's own armor rating. Which is definitely in the hit-able range for mooks.
And mooks can't break hardness 10 to any significant degree- they can't hit your AC of 20+, they can't break your armor's hardness, they're screwed. A high dex build (with an 18) will be starting at AC 11 for the armor, before magical dex boosts or deflection, which is enough to further deflect a percentage of attacks based on bad rolls. CR10 monsters will hit it, sure, but only two-handed weapon monsters will chew through the hardness fast enough to be crippling. All the rest are dealing 0-5 points per hit, maybe 10 for a dragon with power attack- which is a much better return on repair magic than if they attacked you, if they even attack the armor at all.

Sure, all of that starts going out the window at higher levels, but that's what happens when you want a cool set of bonuses that work right now.

A few points I'm a bit confused about, 1. You're supposed to only damage armor if the enemy specifically attacks the armor itself?
Yes, it says the armor can be attacked as a separate object.

2. the freezing thing isn't for any cold spell with a relfex save, It's All cold attacks. The reflex save is completely separate from any spell save and is equal to 10 + the spells damage done to you(meaning if you're facing a high level caster could easily become impossible to make).
Says where?

The hydraulics are frozen solid by any cold-based attack if the wearer's saving throw fails; requiring the wearer to remove the armor and thaw it (this can also be done more quickly if the wearer is willing to be the target of a fire-based spell that does at least as much damage as the cold-based attack did).
There is no mention of a special save mechanic before this, while the damage based save mechanic presented later is for blows directed against the armor and doesn't make any mention of cold at all. You can't fail a save if there's no save, so no-save cold doesn't freeze your armor any more than fire effects set things on fire without the specific ability to do so. Directing a cold attack at the armor directly hits the "gears and controls," not affecting the hydraulics at all even if it allowed a save (would it be an attended or unattended object? who knows!).

Though even if it did trigger on any cold attack, I've yet to see an army that was equipped with a bunch of Alchemist's Frost, nor are Frost weapons particularly popular, or any cold spells on non-themed mages (its always fire and lightning and acid and sonic, cold is literally the last resort on any build that isn't built specifically to use cold), so it would still only be a problem with cold monsters. Weakness to a specific energy (or anything) just isn't a problem unless the DM specifically throws that energy type at you.

The biggest problem with the clockwork armor is if you fight Fire Giants or Nycaloths that choose to target the armor. Nothing to do about that really.

[Promethean]

And mooks can't break hardness 10 to any significant degree- they can't hit your AC of 20+, they can't break your armor's hardness, they're screwed. A high dex build (with an 18) will be starting at AC 11 for the armor, before magical dex boosts or deflection, which is enough to further deflect a percentage of attacks based on bad rolls. CR10 monsters will hit it, sure, but only two-handed weapon monsters will chew through the hardness fast enough to be crippling. All the rest are dealing 0-5 points per hit, maybe 10 for a dragon with power attack- which is a much better return on repair magic than if they attacked you, if they even attack the armor at all.

Sure, all of that starts going out the window at higher levels, but that's what happens when you want a cool set of bonuses that work right now.

Yes, it says the armor can be attacked as a separate object.

The DEX Ac build thing would apply only to a High dex build using the armor, a Character with STR/CON based build will still be Mook-able. It'll become worse vs enemy spell casters, as any AOE spell will target the armor as well. Not to mention the Repair line of spells only work on construct type creatures and Make whole/mending doesn't repair damage caused by things like melting or unwarp gears(not entirely sure how to rule that in regards to item hit points). So repair options are limited to visiting your local artificer for a few days(which may not be bad for a party with enough downtime and gold, but gets really inconvenient in the middle of a dungeon crawl or climactic battle).

1 point of damage here and 2 points there will eventually build up.


Says where?

There is no mention of a special save mechanic before this, while the damage based save mechanic presented later is for blows directed against the armor and doesn't make any mention of cold at all. You can't fail a save if there's no save, so no-save cold doesn't freeze your armor any more than fire effects set things on fire without the specific ability to do so. Directing a cold attack at the armor directly hits the "gears and controls," not affecting the hydraulics at all even if it allowed a save (would it be an attended or unattended object? who knows!).

Though even if it did trigger on any cold attack, I've yet to see an army that was equipped with a bunch of Alchemist's Frost, nor are Frost weapons particularly popular, or any cold spells on non-themed mages (its always fire and lightning and acid and sonic, cold is literally the last resort on any build that isn't built specifically to use cold), so it would still only be a problem with cold monsters. Weakness to a specific energy (or anything) just isn't a problem unless the DM specifically throws that energy type at you.

The biggest problem with the clockwork armor is if you fight Fire Giants or Nycaloths that choose to target the armor. Nothing to do about that really.

Derp, got the damage reflex and spell saves mixed up. My bad.

Would still personally rule any spell that doesn't allow a save to count as you auto failing it, otherwise you have the inconsistency of the armor freezing with some cold spells but not others without a non-DM fluff reason. This is just me though.

[Fizban]

The DEX Ac build thing would apply only to a High dex build using the armor, a Character with STR/CON based build will still be Mook-able.
Still focusing on AC when hardness is the object's main defense.

It'll become worse vs enemy spell casters, as any AOE spell will target the armor as well.
That's where the "can" comes up again. Being able to target the armor as a separate object doesn't actually mean its treated as a separate object for any purpose other than direct attacks targeted at the armor. That's all up to DM ruling.

And don't forget that cold is also quartered vs objects, fire and electricity are halved, and acid and sonic still have to break through hardness unless their source specifically says they ignore it. So once again even if it is getting splashed on, it's not taking very much damage unless the DM is throwing maximized effects at you. Resist Energy also protects your equipment (and is expected against monsters with major energy damage), and with even cl7 that means -30 damage after cutting it in half, enough to completely block a Maximized Fireball-like effect even if the object fails its save (which it gets because it's a magic item) and the DM is making it take damage from AoEs.

Not to mention the Repair line of spells only work on construct type creatures and Make whole/mending doesn't repair damage caused by things like melting or unwarp gears(not entirely sure how to rule that in regards to item hit points).
Depends on which version of repair and which versions of Make Whole and Mending. I'm fairly certain there's a version of the Repair line that applies to objects, while Arms and Equipment Guide specifically calls out that Make Whole restores all hp to a destroyed ship section (a rather large area that can be made of composite layers). I'm pretty sure all the lines about "warping" are there specifically so that Make Whole isn't able to restore items damaged by the higher equal level Warp Wood (which itself specifically says Make Whole doesn't work), but as before the fluff of the armor only says blunt weapons can warp (or jolt) parts.

Throwing up roadblocks to repairing the armor is the same thing as specifically throwing freezes or two-handed power attackers (or pointing sonic or acid blasting at it or ruling that it's hit by AoEs): the DM has decided you aren't supposed to use this thing. Which means either this is a specially designed encounter that's been balanced based on your loss of the armor, or they shouldn't have allowed it in the first place. Basically all of these problems are predicated on getting the armor into a game where the DM is against you, or choosing to rule harshly against the item you just allowed as the DM. And if one of those is true, why discuss something in the first place?

[Promethean]

Throwing up roadblocks to repairing the armor is the same thing as specifically throwing freezes or two-handed power attackers (or pointing sonic or acid blasting at it or ruling that it's hit by AoEs): the DM has decided you aren't supposed to use this thing. Which means either this is a specially designed encounter that's been balanced based on your loss of the armor, or they shouldn't have allowed it in the first place. Basically all of these problems are predicated on getting the armor into a game where the DM is against you, or choosing to rule harshly against the item you just allowed as the DM. And if one of those is true, why discuss something in the first place?

Well, you've sold me on the armor weaknesses being less trouble than I thought. Though you bring up the point that was my problem with the armor weaknesses in the first place, the fact that thy're an On/Off switch that basically means either the armor weaknesses aren't brought up(completely negating their use for balance) or they're used and the player feels persecuted by the DM for having nice things.

I believe a similar point was brought up about item familiar(though to a far more extreme degree) where the "Balance" was the fact that the item would render a character unplayable if it was lost/destroyed.

[unseenmage]

As an aside, Intelligent Magic Items can use their own superpowers. Make the armor an Int Magic Item with an at will fire and/or Make Whole superpower and viola weaknesses obviated.

Arguably an Int Magic Item Clockwork Armor could even walk to you on command and maybe even help you put itself on given a permissive enough GM ruling.

[Fizban]

The only time I mentioned balance was the DM balancing an encounter- which means I won't be contradicting myself saying that yeah, it's not balanced. Neither is Item Familiar, or a bunch of other things, but that's because balance is a state maintained by the DM with regards to a specific game. There are plenty of things that should only be approved when the character is otherwise lagging behind, or things with weaknesses that you should only exploit with carefully built situations. I still say Clockwork Armor is a good item, the same way Wizards and Fighters are good classes.

Of course I'm a lot more willing to bat for Clockwork Armor- a reasonably well written bit of tech with lots of room to swing in either direction, than I would be for Item Familiar- a hot pile of garbage. Clockwork Armor is just an underpriced item with set drawbacks that you can opt out of at any time simply by selling it and getting some different armor (or even just keeping some extra full plate around), while Item Familiar gives nigh-impossible bonuses and takes away innate character abilities if destroyed, with how much depending directly on how min-maxed the player is trying to be.

Which is basically the inherent problem with every single "drawback" in the game- Flaws that don't affect your character, Item Familiars that give you free benefits with no penalty other than losing the item, etc. Innate drawbacks can't be removed, so they can never be exploited. Actual items with drawbacks can always be removed at the players option if they decide the drawbacks are too oppressive- though this should only ever happen if the DM specifically tells the player that encounters will be status quo (or even foes with intel) and using Clockwork Armor will be at their own risk.

So essentially, yeah, if the Clockwork Armor is being deployed well, the weaknesses should never be forced outside of specially prepared encounters, because they aren't a balancing factor. If it is being deployed poorly, then the weaknesses can be used as a poor balancing factor, which may cause the player to choose to abandon the item.

[Celestia]

Arguably an Int Magic Item Clockwork Armor could even walk to you on command and maybe even help you put itself on given a permissive enough GM ruling.
Then you really would be Iron Man. :smalltongue:

[unseenmage]

Then you really would be Iron Man. :smalltongue:

There ARE rules for drunkenness in Arms & Equipment Guide, and being independantly wealthy is already a feature of being a PC. So yeah, Iron Man achieved.

[Promethean]

There ARE rules for drunkenness in Arms & Equipment Guide, and being independantly wealthy is already a feature of being a PC. So yeah, Iron Man achieved.

You still need to be a super genius with tech, and a (magical) weapons manufacturer that gets wounded by one of your own weapons. So artificer, warlock, factotum, or(if your want to play hard mode) UMD rogue are your best options. I'd honestly think a re-flavored warlock(invocations as tech) would fit best.

The real difficulty is getting a construct assembly line for magic items, though with your DM's approval you can have that already be made and have your character be kidnapped or robbed of the company at low levels.