Longest possible summon duration?

[RoboEmperor]

Lets say you have a CL10 summon monster I, which lasts 10 rounds.
Extend Spell doubles this to 20 rounds.
Does Thaumaturgist double this to 40 rounds? Or just add another 10 rounds to 30 rounds?
Does adding Malconvoker's Deceptive Summons then double this to 80 rounds, or just add another 10 rounds to 40 rounds?

Are there any other summon duration buffing effects? Via items or otherwise? I know Summoning Domain increases CL by 2 and therefore increase duration by 2 rounds.

Would going Shadowcraft Mage result in longer duration summons than going normal summon? How about using Conjure Ice Beast route to use Conjuration(creation) instead of Conjuration(summon)?

[Zaq]

I mean, there's the Halaster's Fetch line that's technically never fully ending, but that's explicitly [Calling] rather than [Summoning]. But since you were okay with [Creation] rather than [Summoning], that might be up your alley? Probably not helpful for what you were asking.

You can use weird optional material components to help with this sort of thing, too. If you go for [Creation] rather than [Summoning], you can use Possibility Dust (CMag pg. 136) to double the duration "as though with the Extend Spell feat," which probably won't stack with actual Extend Spell. If you're Evil, you can use a humanoid child's eye (BoVD pg. 46); that straight up doubles duration without referencing Extend Spell or checking keywords, but it also only has a 20% chance to work.

[Techwarrior]

I don't have the knowledge of a wide variety of random other stuff, but a doubled double is triple. Multipliers are basically additive instead of multiplicative. So for instance, a critical hit with a x3 weapon using the Spirited Charge feat (a double) is x4 damage.

[MeimuHakurei]

I don't think you can stack summon durations this way at a rate that lets you reach Persistent Spell, which sets the duration to 24 hours. Add Extend Spell, that's 48 hours.

Either way, Planar Ally might enlist someone for a day/CL, but calling =/= summoning.

[Troacctid]

Extend Spell doubles the normal duration, so it shouldn't stack with other effects that increase the duration, such as Persistent Spell, Deceptive Summons, or additional iterations of itself. Thaumaturgist provides an exception, so that one at least should work.

[The Random NPC]

I don't have the knowledge of a wide variety of random other stuff, but a doubled double is triple. Multipliers are basically additive instead of multiplicative. So for instance, a critical hit with a x3 weapon using the Spirited Charge feat (a double) is x4 damage.

I believe that's only for damage.

[Aharon]

Depending on your reading, the Summon Monster ability of that one vestige might last 1 round/Binder Level, until the vestige is unbound, or have duration: Permanent.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are a few summon spells that last 1 hour/level. Summon Devoted Roc (Sky 9, RotW) and Summon Marked Homunculus (Sor/Wiz 1, Art 1, Dragonmarked) are the ones i know offhand.
There's also Summon Dire Hawk (Dr 2/Sky 2, RotW) and Summon Golem (Sor/Wiz 9, Cl 9, PHB2) which last 1 minute/level.
Body outside Body (CArc) is creation, not summoning, but it's notable for having a fixed ranged so it's persistable.

The longest duration summons for normal summon spells i know of would be a Shifter Druid/Moonspeaker/Thaumaturgist with Extend Spell and Ashbound, which would have summons with a duration of 16 rounds/level.


I don't think you can stack summon durations this way at a rate that lets you reach Persistent Spell, which sets the duration to 24 hours. Add Extend Spell, that's 48 hours.

Either way, Planar Ally might enlist someone for a day/CL, but calling =/= summoning.
You can't use Persistent Spell on most summon spells since they don't fulfill the "fixed range" requirement.


Extend Spell doubles the normal duration, so it shouldn't stack with other effects that increase the duration, such as Persistent Spell, Deceptive Summons, or additional iterations of itself. Thaumaturgist provides an exception, so that one at least should work.
That's explicitly what the stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking) are for.


Multiplying

Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

Since duration/time is a real-world value you use normal math rules. A ×2 ×2 = A ×4.

[RoboEmperor]

Extend Spell doubles the normal duration, so it shouldn't stack with other effects that increase the duration, such as Persistent Spell, Deceptive Summons, or additional iterations of itself. Thaumaturgist provides an exception, so that one at least should work.

There is no rule saying you can only have one "extend like effect" at anytime, so I highly doubt your interpretation is correct. There is no rule preventing stacking, and the extend spell is invoked as an example to better help understand the effect, nothing more. This isn't AC or attack bonus or any other bonus that have anti-stacking rules from the same source. There is no rule limiting duration increases.


Since duration/time is a real-world value you use normal math rules. A ×2 ×2 = A ×4.

You are beautiful! RAW right there saying duration is 8x instead of 4x if I apply the 3 extend stuff.

As for stacking persistent spell and extend spell, I haven't looked into it so I can't comment, but I think they would stack if you add extend after the persistent spell. Order matters when stacking metamagics on a spell.

Spells that last 1min/level+ are good enough. just not round/level. I want to be escorted 24/7 by summoned creatures. I already use called creatures, but they come online at level 9. Level 10 if going Malconvoker. I'm fishing to see if I can achieve this earlier. Artificers can do this with wealth and time, but I'm trying to see if it's possible with completely free creatures only as downtime and wealth are things I can't control.

Body outside body is Wu Jen so it requires Wyrm Wizard to gain access, but if it works with polymorph, then I guess something could be done with this.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As for stacking persistent spell and extend spell, I haven't looked into it so I can't comment, but I think they would stack if you add extend after the persistent spell. Order matters when stacking metamagics on a spell.
Pretty sure it's RAW that multiple effects apply in the order most beneficial to you, though i don't know where to find it offhand for a quote. RC possibly.


Spells that last 1min/level+ are good enough. just not round/level. I want to be escorted 24/7 by summoned creatures. I already use called creatures, but they come online at level 9. Level 10 if going Malconvoker. I'm fishing to see if I can achieve this earlier. Artificers can do this with wealth and time, but I'm trying to see if it's possible with completely free creatures only as downtime and wealth are things I can't control.
Summon Marked Homunculus is the best (or more accurately only) option for that, but it costs you a feat for Mark of Making. Also Eberron specific. They're not super tough, but the duration makes up for a lot when spell slots are limited.

At low levels the best source for persistent minions is the Wild Cohort feat if you don't have an animal companion or familiar.

The next earliest option is rebuking/commanding - taking Divine Energy Focus (Ghostwalk) means you can control two 1 HD minions at level 1, otherwise you have to wait until level 2.
Undead aren't the best minions, but they're one of the most common monster types and so widely available. Depending on the campaign the non-undead rebuking options may actually be pretty strong but naturally require more investment, depending on type. Dragons and the elemental subtypes usually give a lot more return per hd controlled than undead.
Rebuking gear affects all of them, so it's very efficient to get more than one kind of extra rebuking (unless your DM rules otherwise, making non-undead rebuking pretty much worthless. Ask first).
Another upside is that rebuking scales very well. The items that boost turning/rebuking level are generally fairly cheap, so having (at least) 2 minions at or near your hd is pretty easy to accomplish.

After that it's undead for those casters who get Animate Dead, though the alignment issues make it hard to justify in good parties, zombies/skeletons tend to suck unless your DM throws very specific monsters at you and it takes a while to come online for most casters, if they get it at all.

Druids can get something going with Wild Empathywith some cheese (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302815-3-5-PF-Gotta-Catch-em-All-Optimizing-Wild-Empathy) to hit the DC's early.
There's also wildshape stuff like Yellow Musk Creeper (to make YM zombies) and Myconid Sovereign for druid minionmancy. I don't know the HD of Myconid Sovereign offhand, but it should be available fairly early with Enhance Wild Shape.


Body outside body is Wu Jen so it requires Wyrm Wizard to gain access, but if it works with polymorph, then I guess something could be done with this.
Miracle works and is something most divine casters get or can pick up easily anyway, though it comes a little late. BoB is damn strong though.
For arcane casters there's always the option of UMDing a staff with Channel Charge to avoid spending charges, or a Runestaff if your DM allows UMDing them which is a lot cheaper.

[RoboEmperor]

Summon Marked Homunculus is the best (or more accurately only) option for that, but it costs you a feat for Mark of Making. Also Eberron specific. They're not super tough, but the duration makes up for a lot when spell slots are limited.

Actually thanks for bringing this spell to my attention. I think I can make something work with it. IIRC arbalesters and iron defenders can pull their weight for a while, and being a long duration level 1 spell means I can have an army of them. I'll need to give Dragonmark a good reading, especially since it's a 1st party eberron book. Thought it was from dragonlance for a second there XD

As for druids... I like expendable minions and I hate animals, XD. Expendability also bans cohorts and leadership stuff, except Thaumaturgist's cohorts which have no penalty for its death other than the cost for recruiting it.

Rebuke has a problem like you said about accessibility and being totally dependent on the DM. Planar Binding and summon spells are independent of the DM but not planar ally or rebukes.

Anyways thanks. I should be able to kill some time with Dragonmark.

edit: Region specificity might prevent me from grabbing Dragonmarks, but if not, then LOL, 100% of my characters will grab Least Dragonmark for that 1 hour/level arbelester spam at level 1! Hell this makes Artificers amazing at level 1 as well! Burn all your infusions for an arbelester army!

[magicalmagicman]

Actually thanks for bringing this spell to my attention. I think I can make something work with it. IIRC arbalesters and iron defenders can pull their weight for a while, and being a long duration level 1 spell means I can have an army of them. I'll need to give Dragonmark a good reading, especially since it's a 1st party eberron book. Thought it was from dragonlance for a second there XD

...

edit: Region specificity might prevent me from grabbing Dragonmarks, but if not, then LOL, 100% of my characters will grab Least Dragonmark for that 1 hour/level arbelester spam at level 1! Hell this makes Artificers amazing at level 1 as well! Burn all your infusions for an arbelester army!

Heh, reading your threads always improves what I'm doing. I guess I'll be ditching my dual adamantine equipped warrior skeletons at level 1 for arbelesters in my artificer build in that other thread of mine. I wonder if arbelesters with their +7 to hit can carry my artificer all the way to level 6... It'd be awesome if they could, but they should be able to carry my artificer at least to level 4 when I can start producing max hd iron defenders.

[Rijan_Sai]

Heh, reading your threads always improves what I'm doing. I guess I'll be ditching my dual adamantine equipped warrior skeletons at level 1 for arbelesters in my artificer build in that other thread of mine. I wonder if arbelesters with their +7 to hit can carry my artificer all the way to level 6... It'd be awesome if they could, but they should be able to carry my artificer at least to level 4 when I can start producing max hd iron defenders.

Just don't forget to make a Dedicated Wright first. Effectively eliminating the "downtime" component of crafting can be very helpful in most cases!

[magicalmagicman]

Just don't forget to make a Dedicated Wright first. Effectively eliminating the "downtime" component of crafting can be very helpful in most cases!

Call me a noob but I honestly don't see the point.

As soon as I can make the magic item I want I build it immediately and I don't adventure until it's finished because it increases my strength drastically. I could see dedicated wrights making potions and scrolls on the go but they don't help me with the big expensive items, which is what my artificer usually builds.

[Rijan_Sai]

Call me a noob but I honestly don't see the point.

As soon as I can make the magic item I want I build it immediately and I don't adventure until it's finished because it increases my strength drastically. I could see dedicated wrights making potions and scrolls on the go but they don't help me with the big expensive items, which is what my artificer usually builds.

This is really the point. It's not a necessary thing, but with a DW you don't have to stop adventuring for days/weeks/months at a time to make items. The DW does the physical work for you! (You still have to supply various components/UMD rolls/etc.)

The common suggestion is to set up a workshop inside a Portable Hole and get the process started. Then you can go hang with you friends (continue your adventure) while your little hammer-bot does all the crafting. When that item is done, you can start up a new one and keep going!

(Basically, downtime (or lack thereof) is one of the bigger complaints of the item crafting system, both [Craft] skills and Craft [Insert Magic Item Here] feats. The Dedicated Wright removes that as a consideration for the most part.)

[sleepyphoenixx]

This is really the point. It's not a necessary thing, but with a DW you don't have to stop adventuring for days/weeks/months at a time to make items. The DW does the physical work for you! (You still have to supply various components/UMD rolls/etc.)

The common suggestion is to set up a workshop inside a Portable Hole and get the process started. Then you can go hang with you friends (continue your adventure) while your little hammer-bot does all the crafting. When that item is done, you can start up a new one and keep going!

(Basically, downtime (or lack thereof) is one of the bigger complaints of the item crafting system, both [Craft] skills and Craft [Insert Magic Item Here] feats. The Dedicated Wright removes that as a consideration for the most part.)

Notably a lot of campaigns have a time crunch. You can't just take a month off to enchant the fighters new sword without the BBEG taking over the kingdom or whatever.
Not to mention there are a ton of cheap wondrous items that are just nice to have. Being able to supply the party on the go with things like Chronocharms, Shadow Cloaks and so on without having to take a break is just convenient.

[Calthropstu]

Actually thanks for bringing this spell to my attention. I think I can make something work with it. IIRC arbalesters and iron defenders can pull their weight for a while, and being a long duration level 1 spell means I can have an army of them. I'll need to give Dragonmark a good reading, especially since it's a 1st party eberron book. Thought it was from dragonlance for a second there XD

As for druids... I like expendable minions and I hate animals, XD. Expendability also bans cohorts and leadership stuff, except Thaumaturgist's cohorts which have no penalty for its death other than the cost for recruiting it.

Rebuke has a problem like you said about accessibility and being totally dependent on the DM. Planar Binding and summon spells are independent of the DM but not planar ally or rebukes.

Anyways thanks. I should be able to kill some time with Dragonmark.

edit: Region specificity might prevent me from grabbing Dragonmarks, but if not, then LOL, 100% of my characters will grab Least Dragonmark for that 1 hour/level arbelester spam at level 1! Hell this makes Artificers amazing at level 1 as well! Burn all your infusions for an arbelester army!

Binding is completely dm dependent. Any of my players try to abuse that spell, I'd put the smack down hard. Oh look... someone is binding angels or demons at a high pace... *Smite*

[jdizzlean]

Druids can get something going with Wild Empathywith some cheese (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302815-3-5-PF-Gotta-Catch-em-All-Optimizing-Wild-Empathy) to hit the DC's early.
There's also wildshape stuff like Yellow Musk Creeper (to make YM zombies) and Myconid Sovereign for druid minionmancy. I don't know the HD of Myconid Sovereign offhand, but it should be available fairly early with Enhance Wild Shape.




the problem w/ myconid is that it's a plant, and you don't get wild shape for plants until 12th level, at which point you have plenty of HD to cover it (myconid sov is only 6hd)

enhance wild shape works to allow plant, but you don't gain any of the Ex (spores or plant characteristics) abilities unless you burn off another slot.

[sleepyphoenixx]

the problem w/ myconid is that it's a plant, and you don't get wild shape for plants until 12th level, at which point you have plenty of HD to cover it (myconid sov is only 6hd)

enhance wild shape works to allow plant, but you don't gain any of the Ex (spores or plant characteristics) abilities unless you burn off another slot.

That's not that much of a problem considering that a sov's zombies last weeks or months iirc. It's a downtime ability, so the slot cost isn't that important.

[jdizzlean]

That's not that much of a problem considering that a sov's zombies last weeks or months iirc. It's a downtime ability, so the slot cost isn't that important.

they last 1d6 weeks, but take i think 1d4 days to "show up"

it's 1 slot to be able to become the plant, and another slot to gain the ex abilities. that's 2 lvl 4 slots at low level, which could be all of your spells of that lvl for the whole day, which could be a pretty big deal.

[Andezzar]

I believe that's only for damage.Nope, all game stats follow those rules.


Since duration/time is a real-world value you use normal math rules. A ×2 ×2 = A ×4.I agree, when talking about seconds, minutes or hours or other real world units. Rounds however are an in game concept.


As for stacking persistent spell and extend spell, I haven't looked into it so I can't comment, but I think they would stack if you add extend after the persistent spell. Order matters when stacking metamagics on a spell.While the order does matter neither gives you a duration of 48 hours.

Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours.

An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal.
So Persistent spell gives a fixed duration, extend spell doubles the normal duration. If you add persistent spell first, it does not have any impact on what extend spell does as 24h is not the normal duration of the spell. If you apply the feats in the opposite order, persistent spell does not matter as the duration of the spell is set to twice its normal duration.

[unseenmage]

...

I agree, when talking about seconds, minutes or hours or other real world units. Rounds however are an in game concept.
...
A rose by any other name would still be a plant and affected by Plant Growth so to speak.

If called a "round" or "six seconds" a given duration of time is still a real world value.

[Inevitability]

A rose by any other name would still be a plant and affected by Plant Growth so to speak.

Can I sig this?

[unseenmage]

Can I sig this?

Sure. Knock yourself out.

[Gullintanni]

So Persistent spell gives a fixed duration, extend spell doubles the normal duration. If you add persistent spell first, it does not have any impact on what extend spell does as 24h is not the normal duration of the spell. If you apply the feats in the opposite order, persistent spell does not matter as the duration of the spell is set to twice its normal duration.

Fixed, 24 hour duration is the normal duration for a persisted spell.

The unfortunate side effect of arguing pedantically in a game that primarily governs itself with narrowly defined game terms is that pedantry cuts both ways.

"Normal Duration" is not a defined game term. You can't look in the glossary for Normal Duration and return a value of "...the duration of a spell prior to metamagic adjustments". What's normal for a persistent spell is different from normal for a non-metamagicked spell, but there is nothing to indicate that "normal" as presented by a persisted spell can not satisfy "normal" as required by the Extend Spell feat.

Ergo, Extend Spell, owing to the ambiguity of non-specified game terms, both applies and does not apply to Persistent spells based on your DM's definition of normalcy.