Dex Barbarian/Rogue Optimization Advice

[KOLE]

Hey guys, I’ve been working on a build for a little bit that’s highly influenced by Yunru’s Graceful Destruction (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468625-Graceful-Destruction-A-Guide-to-Dex-Based-Barbarism) guide. To save you from reading the whole thing, the TL;DR is a dex built Barb, boosting dex and to a small extent con quickly to get high AC naked, high initiative scores, and still deal good DPR with finesse weapons, while staying super tanky with Rage even if you’re not getting the Rage damage bonus (since that applies only to a strength based attack.) It’s a pretty simple concept, and if you’re playing straight Barb it’s a great build as long as you stick to finesse. I like going going sword and board myself to boost your already great starting AC, and leaving your bonus action to rage away. The only thing you really miss out on is Rage bonus damage, you still have the option to use Reckless attack if you want to. I plan to pick up Bear totem for high tanking potential, and soak up hits.

Using this guide as a baseline, I had a thought to build a pretty sweet multiclass, and that’s what I’m looking for help on. I want to multiclass rogue (synergy is obvious since dex is rogue’s favorite attribute), and pick up shield master to give me two insta-sneak attack options. Having expertise in athletics makes up for my low(ish) strength, helping me use shield master to knock enemies prone and thus get advantage for sneak attack, or I could just use reckless attack, lose my dex modifier to damage but make up for it with sneak attack damage and possibly rage damage.

That’s the basis of the build. I plan to go straight Barb to level four to get Shield Master ASAP (race is half-elf, I know Vhuman would save me an ASI since that’s the only feat I want but oh well), and then go one more level for Extra Attack since I’m close, and multiclass from there. Here’s my issue. Outside of expertise at 1, cunning action at 2, the only other thing that would be useful is uncanny dodge at 5 (stacks with rage resistance to halve damage that’s already been resisted, thanks to the specific wording). From there I’m thinking about going to 7 just to pick up an extra sneak attack die, since I’m investing so much into rogue I figure I may as well get big damage, especially since with extra attack I’m guaranteed it every turn. (Use bonus action to shield slam them prone, if it fails just use reckless attack to key sneak attack, and have an extra attack but using dexterity modifier). The problem is those two extra levels are completely dead. I don’t gain anything useful from base class and all rogue archetype only get features at 3rd and 9th.

My basic question is, is the two dead rogue levels worth the extra sneak attack die, and is there any obvious thing I’m missing in this build? Final level will be Barb 13/Rogue 7. I don’t gain too much useful stuff from Barb going to 15 instead, and with how much I’m investing in Rogue, 4d6 seems like a much better payoff than just 3d6.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the build are appreciated.

[BobZan]

You could go STR, use a Rapier and benefit from Sneak Attack, Reckless and Rage.

Point-buy you'd start with the same AC. With Bear and Uncanny Dodge you're good to go with that AC. The way you built, your AC would increase to 19 only 9th level when you'd get +2 Dex ASI.

[PeteNutButter]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think dex barbs are crap. Do the exact same build with str build and half plate and see what happens. AC is the same or better until your third or fourth ASI (read: for the entire game), but you get a damage bonus when raging and can reckless attack. You can still MC rogue and use a rapier with str and that way you are benefiting from all of your class features instead of just half of them. The only thing you lose is potentially stealth and a couple initiative points.

With that said you should not be taking Barbarian past level 5. The rogue levels offer consistent steady damage increases, and most of the mid level Barb features are dead or weak. I typically don’t take my barbarians past 5 even when str based, being dex based makes it an automatic choice. Rogue is the only way to keep your damage respectable.

Edit: ninja’d

[Blackbando]

Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn.

Emphasis mine.

[smcmike]

Here’s my issue. Outside of expertise at 1, cunning action at 2, the only other thing that would be useful is uncanny dodge at 5 (stacks with rage resistance to halve damage that’s already been resisted, thanks to the specific wording). From there I’m thinking about going to 7 just to pick up an extra sneak attack die, since I’m investing so much into rogue I figure I may as well get big damage, especially since with extra attack I’m guaranteed it every turn. (Use bonus action to shield slam them prone, if it fails just use reckless attack to key sneak attack, and have an extra attack but using dexterity modifier). The problem is those two extra levels are completely dead. I don’t gain anything useful from base class and all rogue archetype only get features at 3rd and 9th.

My basic question is, is the two dead rogue levels worth the extra sneak attack die, and is there any obvious thing I’m missing in this build? Final level will be Barb 13/Rogue 7. I don’t gain too much useful stuff from Barb going to 15 instead, and with how much I’m investing in Rogue, 4d6 seems like a much better payoff than just 3d6.

Any thoughts or suggestions on the build are appreciated.

Honestly, I see most Barbarian levels after 5 as far more “dead” to this build than Rogue levels. Increasing sneak attack damage is your best way to increase DPR. I’m using a Barbarian/Rogue and plan on a 5/15 split if we get that far (we won’t).

[N810]

Maybe use paired short swords and branch into swashbuckler for easier sneak attacks,

[Malifice]

Dont do it.

It not only shuts down Rage damage bonus, but also Reckless attack (the core Barbarian class feature).

Plus cutting out on the higher damage from big heavy 2H weapons, and GWM style.

[Biggstick]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think dex barbs are crap. Do the exact same build with str build and half plate and see what happens. AC is the same or better until your third or fourth ASI (read: for the entire game), but you get a damage bonus when raging and can reckless attack. You can still MC rogue and use a rapier with str and that way you are benefiting from all of your class features instead of just half of them. The only thing you lose is potentially stealth and a couple initiative points.

With that said you should not be taking Barbarian past level 5. The rogue levels offer consistent steady damage increases, and most of the mid level Barb features are dead or weak. I typically don’t take my barbarians past 5 even when str based, being dex based makes it an automatic choice. Rogue is the only way to keep your damage respectable.

Edit: ninja’d

Barbarian 6 is solid for the fact that it provides you an archetype feature as well as a 4th Rage. If your DM is running the recommended number of combat encounters, that 4th Rage will make your adventuring day much easier to plan for.

As for the OP, Rogue 6 gets you two Expertise'd skills, and Rogue 7 gets you Evasion. How could you call these dead levels?! Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are what define a Rogue's survivability! With Evasion and Bear Totem Rage, you'll take 1/4 damage from AoE Dexterity Saves (which you probably have advantage on the save for) when you fail the save, and none if you make the save.

I don't know why you think Rogue 7 is a dead level. I'd consider it the 2nd to last defining feature of a Rogue (with Reliable Talent being the final "defining" feature at Rogue 11).

[Mikal]

Dont do it.

It not only shuts down Rage damage bonus, but also Reckless attack (the core Barbarian class feature).

Plus cutting out on the higher damage from big heavy 2H weapons, and GWM style.

Actually it doesn't. You can use finesse weapons with Rage and Reckless Attack. You just need to use your Str on the attack roll vs. the optional Dex, so have at it with Rapiers.

Thus, while not completely crap, it does require you to be MADer than a Monk.

On the bright side though, always on SA with Reckless Attack is nice.

[N810]

Like I said short swords, although Scimitars would work as well.
(both are light and versatile)

[Foxydono]

Not sure how optmized it is. Depends on what you are looking for obviously. Barb 5 for extra attack. Either go zealot for damage or bear totem for defense. 13 rogue, because everything past barb 5 is a waste in my opinion. This will give you five feats to play with, two attacks, good sneak attack damage, cunning action and all sorts of goodies. Rogue archtypes are not the best, but I'd go for scout or swashbuckler. Go whip for reach and the d4 is a bit salty, but compared to a d6 it's only one damage less on avarage per attack. Most comes from sneak attack and modofiers anyway, so don't worry too much about it.

The last two levels I'd go fighter. Action surge and fighting style are beter then another two rogue levels. Although prof in wis saving throws is decent enough to consider rogue if you like. If you want to wear armor or not is up to your stats. Going dex with high con I'd say just go without armor with a shield. End game you'll have 10 + 5 con + 5 dex +5 shield and maybe defense fighting style of you want. And get a defender weapon and some haste pots :). That way you can reach 30+ AC, resistance to almost everything (if bear). Action surge, sneak attack damage, reckless attack, evasion, expertise and so on. Maybe get a feat for prof Wisdom and you'll be a mean fighting machine!

[Malifice]

Actually it doesn't. You can use finesse weapons with Rage and Reckless Attack. You just need to use your Str on the attack roll vs. the optional Dex, so have at it with Rapiers.

Firstly I know. But the OP wants to max Dex and not Strength. He'll have to use Strength if he wants to use reckless attack or rage damage bonus with such weapons. Making a Dex build highly sucky.

Plus, finess weapons dont deal much damage in any event (best damage is a d8). They are not eligible for GWM (which is what reckless attack pairs well with).

Imagine playing a barbarian at 5th level only dealing 1d8+[dex] damage [2x round]. Yeah your AC is slightly better (and is it? I mean; wear half plate and have a Dex of 14 for AC 17 out the tin with no shield) and you get resistance to damage, but thats pointless when enemies ignore you because your damage sucks.

Literally all the Barbarians class features work towards 'heavy' two handed Strength weapons. Our 5th level barbarian is the classic GWM half orc swinging a Greataxe for 1d12+17 damage when he rages, fishing for crits (dealing a third attack as a bonus action, and a shopping 3d12+17 damage on a hit). He deals around 40 damage most rounds.

He's only swinging at +2 (+1 weapon), but thanks to advantage from reckless attack, hits more often than not, and crits rreasonably often (or drops a mook and triggers his third attack).

Tanking isn just about about having a high AC and resistance. Its about making your DM attack you. When you're spitting out an average of 10-15 damage per round as a dedicated 5th level martial, you can just be ignored.

Its like creating a ranged barbarian. Yeah you could do it; but why would you?

[KOLE]

With that said you should not be taking Barbarian past level 5. The rogue levels offer consistent steady damage increases, and most of the mid level Barb features are dead or weak. I typically don’t take my barbarians past 5 even when str based, being dex based makes it an automatic choice. Rogue is the only way to keep your damage respectable.

Edit: ninja’d

Since everybody’s advice boiled down to this, I’m going to hust quote this one and say thanks to everyone who pointed out the extremely, laughably obvious that I really should have caught before I rolled my character and hit level 3. I’m still a little new to this optimizing and multiclassing business, and I appreciate everyones honest advice. It’s really helped me ynderstand what to do and NOT to do in the future.


I don't know why you think Rogue 7 is a dead level. I'd consider it the 2nd to last defining feature of a Rogue (with Reliable Talent being the final "defining" feature at Rogue 11).

Normally, you’re a 100% right, and I should have specified my reasoning. Shield Master gives you the same feat (+more) and I’m taking it at level four. So while you’re reasoning is dead on, it’s still a dead level since it’s a repeat of something I’ll already have. I’m also not 100% sure what I want my second expertise to be. I know it will be useful, and I could throw it at perception given how prevalant it will be, but I can’t think of naything essential gained with more expertise.

For those saying GWM and 2 handing, I understand that’s the usual way to optimize a Barb but that’s not really what I’m trying for right now.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I really should have posted this BEFORE I rolled the character. That said, I think the concept is still salvageable. I will go for Barb 5/Rogue 15. I’m honestly glad to hear I’m not the only one who thougjt Barb levels after 5 are trash. I just sort of assumed as a relative rookie I was missing something. Next time, I’ll stick the STR like so many suggested, still grab Rogue, and get the best of both worlds with Bear Barb resistance, and extra attack, but in addition to Sneak attack also get additional rage damage and not lose any modifiers by recklessly attacking for Sneak Attack. Appreciate all the advice ya’ll.

[N810]

... if you attack with reckless attack you get advantage,
if you have advantage you have sneak attack...

[Mikal]

... if you attack with reckless attack you get advantage,
if you have advantage you have sneak attack...

But as was pointed out to me, OP wants to be main dex focused. I assumed they were going to go triple stat with Str/Con/Dex.
You need to use str on your weapon attack to use reckless attack, so while you CAN reckless attack, your bonus will be usually too low to hit reliably, even with advantage.

So either you go that route, or you become super MAD since you now need high Con, Dex, and Str to pull it off, when you'd be more effective with medium armor and doing the same thing.

Personally, the damage itself probably wouldn't be worth it, since you can theoretically do more damage going GWM vs. finesse weapon damage and sneak attack, once you factor in extra attack, and bonus attack if going PAM, vs. the single SA damage you'll do with at best a 1d8 weapon.

[smcmike]

Its like creating a ranged barbarian. Yeah you could do it; but why would you?

It is significantly better than a ranged barbarian. No, you aren’t going to match the GWM barbarian’s damage, but basically no one matches the damage of a GWM Barbarian. With sneak attack, the barbarogue’s damage can still be quite respectable, plus he can do all sorts of roguish things.

That being said, I only like it if you have a way to get three decent stats, and attack with strength. I rolled well enough to start with three 16s after racial adjustments.



Normally, you’re a 100% right, and I should have specified my reasoning. Shield Master gives you the same feat (+more) and I’m taking it at level four. So while you’re reasoning is dead on, it’s still a dead level since it’s a repeat of something I’ll already have.

Evasion is better than the shield master version. It lets you take half damage on a failed save, and it doesn’t require the use of your reaction. So, while it’s partially redundant, it isn’t a dead level.



I’m also not 100% sure what I want my second expertise to be. I know it will be useful, and I could throw it at perception given how prevalant it will be, but I can’t think of naything essential gained with more expertise.

Do you mean your third and fourth expertise? Athletics, Perception, Stealth, and something for flavor.

[Malifice]

... if you attack with reckless attack you get advantage,
if you have advantage you have sneak attack...

Sneak attack is virtually automatic anyway.

Nearby ally or just be a swashbuckler.