Cleric Core Only with rolled stats

[Letric]

EDIT

These are my Stats to distribute as I wish


12-15-15-11-15-12

Hello,

I'm starting a new campaign on Roll20. Party is Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and me cleric.

I can only use Core rulebook, though Im still not sure about my stats, since they will be rolled.

I had 2 ideas in mind:

- 2 handed fighter in the backline, able to defend Wizard, go into frontline for buffing the other 2 melee guys.

- reach cleric, able to threaten 10' feet around me and to hit from the backline. I know this will be harder due to -4 for "ranged combat rules" (if they apply) I dont remember.

What feats and race should I go for? I'm trying not to be human lol, but it's almost impossible.

I don't have a character concept yet in mind honestly.

If you can link guides, that would be great~

[Malak'ai]

With only core your best bet would be Human (bonus feat and skill points).
For the rest, It would be helpful to know stats and starting level, otherwise the people trying to help don't know what they're working with.

As for the "reach cleric" if you're talking about using a reach weapon (such as a guisamere(sp) then the -4 to hit from ranged doesn't apply because that's for shooting a bow, crossbow or sling ect into melee.

[Letric]

With only core your best bet would be Human (bonus feat and skill points).
For the rest, It would be helpful to know stats and starting level, otherwise the people trying to help don't know what they're working with.

As for the "reach cleric" if you're talking about using a reach weapon (such as a guisamere(sp) then the -4 to hit from ranged doesn't apply because that's for shooting a bow, crossbow or sling ect into melee.

There's a -4, but not many people know about it:


When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Well, I was looking for a way to negate that -4, but it would seems its impossible. Im not sure if being a Reach Cleric and fighting with a permanent -4 it's a wise idea.

I will be a buffer, and if I get really good WIS I will debuff sometimes. The idea is to be a buffer with backup melee abilities.

[Malak'ai]

There's a -4, but not many people know about it:



Well, I was looking for a way to negate that -4, but it would seems its impossible. Im not sure if being a Reach Cleric and fighting with a permanent -4 it's a wise idea.

I will be a buffer, and if I get really good WIS I will debuff sometimes. The idea is to be a buffer with backup melee abilities.

Ah, sorry, I didn't realise you were talking about the "attack from behind cover" rule... My mistake... Been awake for over 24 hours... Things tend to slip the mind :smallbiggrin:.

[AnimeTheCat]

A halfling with a sling for chip damage would negate 2 points of firing into melee, if you take point blank shot and precise shot you can negate it and just get +2 to your attack rolls. Slings are also useful for chucking alchemical things further than normal, such as alchemist flame, acid, and smokesticks.

You could also take the elf route and shoot from range with a longbow.

A Half-Orc could certainly be fun as well, giving you +2 str without impacting your casting stat. This would give reason to be a 2-handed warrior. A Half-Orc cleric of Boccob with the Magic and Knowledge domains with a longspear would scratch all of your itches. If your wizard keeps scribe scroll you have a constant source of low level arcane support scrolls to cast and if you take scribe scroll you can have uncommonly used spells waiting in reserve for a rainy day.

Alternatively you could be a Cleric of Corellon Larethian and take the War and Good and War domains and weild a longsword and shield. Couple that with improved shield bash and two weapon fighting can be fun.

[Eldariel]

Well, I was looking for a way to negate that -4, but it would seems its impossible. Im not sure if being a Reach Cleric and fighting with a permanent -4 it's a wise idea.

I will be a buffer, and if I get really good WIS I will debuff sometimes. The idea is to be a buffer with backup melee abilities.

That's not terribly important much of the time. In much of the space, you can take AoOs with no worries of cover, though of course it'll periodically matter. It's far from permanent though, especially since you get to position yourself. And even with the penalty, it's not like you automiss or anything. You could always just use Spiked Chain to get the best of both worlds - indeed, I'd basically always wield a reach weapon given the option. The reach advantage make AoOs matter and thus make you something much harder to ignore; otherwise enemy archers/casters can often just 5' step away and ignore your melee threat while doing their thing and you can't do a thing about it.

But yeah, just get a reach weapon and make it a secondary thing. One thing core Clerics shine at is summoning so I'd consider Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm), a superb PRC in that direction. Summons make you much better able to cover various bases as a caster as the Core Cleric list is otherwise a tad restricted in ways in which it can directly inconvenience enemies in combat (Silence and Shatter are good, Wall of Stone is good, many domain spells are good, etc. but it lacks the breadth of options arcane lists provide). However, something like Dretches out of Summon Monster III immediately already provide you with Stinking Cloud, an excellent crowd control spell even if enemies make the save (and positively brutal if they fail). Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) is a great read in this regard, and it only costs you one feat too. Thus you can still be a melee monster (Combat Expertise > Improved Trip and EWP: Spiked Chain + Combat Reflexes makes you a superb area controller particularly combined with Enlarge Person [Strength Domain]/Righteous Might) while doing your magic voodoo thingy.

Oh, and neutral or evil Clerics are generally better. Animate Dead is really good, Rebuke Undead beats Turn Undead any day of the week (getting permanent underlings of great power is usually awesome) and many of the better Summons (with the notable exception of Bralani Eladrin) are Evil. Spontaneous Cures are nice for like one-two levels but after that the job should generally get outsourced to Wands anyways.

[denthor]

A halfling with a sling for chip damage would negate 2 points of firing into melee, if you take point blank shot and precise shot you can negate it and just get +2 to your attack rolls. Slings are also useful for chucking alchemical things further than normal, such as alchemist flame, acid, and smokesticks.

You could also take the elf route and shoot from range with a longbow.

A Half-Orc could certainly be fun as well, giving you +2 str without impacting your casting stat. This would give reason to be a 2-handed warrior. A Half-Orc cleric of Boccob with the Magic and Knowledge domains with a longspear would scratch all of your itches. If your wizard keeps scribe scroll you have a constant source of low level arcane support scrolls to cast and if you take scribe scroll you can have uncommonly used spells waiting in reserve for a rainy day.

Alternatively you could be a Cleric of Corellon Larethian and take the War and Good and War domains and weild a longsword and shield. Couple that with improved shield bash and two weapon fighting can be fun.

2nd baccob. But trickery domain gives you invisibility at 3rd level.

Ran a cleric/thief like that.

[Letric]

I think Im going Reach Cleric

STR 15
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 15
CHA 11

If I go Half Orc we're looking at 18 STR at level 4, 16 WIS at level 8 with 3 AoO each turn using a LongSpear.
Having 3 stats with 15 sucks honestly, but theres not much I can do.
I will be able to fill the role of party buffer and extremely good damage dealer.
In this case I will be taking Combat Reflexes and Power Attack when I get my next feat. Then, what else could I take? I don't see many options being a Core Cleric.

I could also be human for a more balanced build taking Combat Reflexes and Spell Focus Conjuration for going Thauma, but I'm not sure if DM will be happy with Summons.

[denthor]

I think Im going Reach Cleric

STR 15
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 15
CHA 11

If I go Half Orc we're looking at 18 STR at level 4, 16 WIS at level 8 with 3 AoO each turn using a LongSpear.
Having 3 stats with 15 sucks honestly, but theres not much I can do.
I will be able to fill the role of party buffer and extremely good damage dealer.
In this case I will be taking Combat Reflex8es and Power Attack when I get my next feat. Then, what else could I take? I don't see many options being a Core Cleric.

I could also be human for a more balanced build taking Combat Reflexes and Spell Focus Conjuration for going Thauma, but I'm not sure if DM will be happy with Summons.


I would switch Dex and Cha you need the cha for turning undead. You can use spells and heavy armor for armor class

[Letric]

I would switch Dex and Cha you need the cha for turning undead. You can use spells and heavy armor for armor class

If I put 11 in DEX I wont be able to be a Reach Cleric. Also, never have used turn undead, extremely complicated mechanic for little benefit

[AnimeTheCat]

Many will mock it, but scribe scroll for basic utility spells is a worthwhile investment. In core you've got lots of 1 minute or 1 minute per level or better add pells that, through 12.5 gold and 1xp can help a lot in many different situations.

Comprehend Languages, remove fear, hide from undead, prot from X spells, obscuring mist, entropic shield, endure elements. All 1 min/level or better. All core level 1. All useful in a variety of situations and good to have on hand for lots of reasons.

EDIT:
If you fancy using divine might a lot, it's duration is just 1 minute, so that's another viable candidate for scrolling.

[Doctor Awkward]

Depending on the nature of the campaign (types of enemies, distribution of treasure), a Core-only cleric might be better as an aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar) than a human.

If LA Buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) is being used they are almost certainly better. I know that rule isn't exactly core, but it is on the SRD so it's usually not difficult to talk DM's into using it.

[denthor]

You must take a feat to get more then one attack of opportunity. Anything that comes into your threat range with a 10 foot weapon you get an attack of opportunity on with an 11 dex only one attack per round that someone first enters.

If you do not burn the feat with a 15 dex you get one attack of opportunity if you learn the feat you get three.

Clerics get very few feats. Your DM does not use undead?
Mechanic is a lot of dice hitting the table but the first time you hit a shadow cr 3 you will want it. Your starting at 8th?

I have a 7th level bard that is at a 2 str currently because he got tagged twice by a shadow nwith touch attack and str drain the ranger dwarf is in the same condition four shadows attacked no cleric. Not to mention cleric get all exp for undead turned

[Letric]

Depending on the nature of the campaign (types of enemies, distribution of treasure), a Core-only cleric might be better as an aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar) than a human.

If LA Buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) is being used they are almost certainly better. I know that rule isn't exactly core, but it is on the SRD so it's usually not difficult to talk DM's into using it.

First time playing with this DM, not sure he's gonna let use that.


You must take a feat to get more then one attack of opportunity. Anything that comes into your threat range with a 10 foot weapon you get an attack of opportunity on with an 11 dex only one attack per round that someone first enters.

If you do not burn the feat with a 15 dex you get one attack of opportunity if you learn the feat you get three.

Clerics get very few feats. Your DM does not use undead?
Mechanic is a lot of dice hitting the table but the first time you hit a shadow cr 3 you will want it. Your starting at 8th?

I have a 7th level bard that is at a 2 str currently because he got tagged twice by a shadow nwith touch attack and str drain the ranger dwarf is in the same condition four shadows attacked no cleric. Not to mention cleric get all exp for undead turned

Combat Reflexes, thats the idea. To take so I can make up to 3 AoO every turn.

Not sure about the campaign, I have no information. My issue with putting 15 CHA seems a lot of waste for just some random undead. Yes, theyre important, but I might be using a lot more a 15 in Dex and STR

[Eldariel]

You have an option about those 15s actually. Be middle-aged. Your physicals will become 14s, your Wisdom 16 and your Int 13 qualifying you for Improved Trip and the awesome control options that it provides.

Turn undead and rebuke is kinda waste. Cha doesn't matter as much.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Turn undead and rebuke is kinda waste. Cha doesn't matter as much.
The only time Turn Undead is a waste is if the campaign features no undead at all. Which is doubtful, considering the undead type is the one with the most monsters in it by a fairly decent margin.
If you invest in Improved Turning and/or a Phylactery of Undead Turning it becomes a reliable means to destroy quite a few nasty enemies that are otherwise a pain to fight at their CR, especially if you also take the Sun domain which makes it an encounter-ender.

And it's not like core-only offers a lot else for clerics, so unless you know for sure that the campaign won't have undead i'd hardly consider it a waste.

[Eldariel]

The only time Turn Undead is a waste is if the campaign features no undead at all. Which is doubtful, considering the undead type is the one with the most monsters in it by a fairly decent margin.
If you invest in Improved Turning and/or a Phylactery of Undead Turning it becomes a reliable means to destroy quite a few nasty enemies that are otherwise a pain to fight at their CR, especially if you also take the Sun domain which makes it an encounter-ender.

And it's not like core-only offers a lot else for clerics, so unless you know for sure that the campaign won't have undead i'd hardly consider it a waste.

Well yes, I worded that poorly. It's not useless but Charisma investment in it is really marginal. Turning can be very strong with Sun-domain and it's useful vs. Undead to be sure, particularly if you invest in it. However, I don't think it makes it worth it to invest in Charisma. Charisma represents a rather minor part of the whole Turn check; items, domains and spells can get you a 16 point PB's worth and honestly, it's a rare day indeed you need more than 3 Turn Undeads unless you're dusting some 1 HD Skeletons for funzies (which can be fun, but not very practical). 6 points of Charisma averages to one extra Cleric level, so by investing a 16 instead of 10 in Cha you turn as a Cleric one level higher (all else being equal). That's a rather large investment for a very specialized attack that only works against one (admittedly generally very common) category of enemies, requires line of effect and has a range of 60'.

To that end I'd rather invest in a stat that'll help me in all my fights (if I'm fighting, Wis, Str, Dex and Con all do) and treat Charisma as a luxury stat, since most of the boosts to Turning are the Phylactery (basically, if you Turn, you need it - it's an absolutely vast difference completely dwarfing everything else in Core), perhaps Circlet of Persuasion (+1 level on the check), Improved Turning feat (if you have an extra, why not) and the Sun-domain (if you plan to invest in Turning, then you definitely want Greater Turning since the enemies you really want to dust generally have so much HD that dusting them straight off the bat is very hard). Which is a lot of investment for one narrowish trick (until very high levels), no matter how good.


As for not offering a whole lot else though, I disagree. Item creation, metamagic (Extend and Quicken tend to be quite good on Cleric depending on persuasion), Thaumaturgist (there's little reason aside from Turn not to take it, and it's very cheap with very powerful payoff in Contingent Summons for essentially a free extra Contingency, and Planar Ally improvements for an actually affordable version of the spell...though Planar Cohort kinda blows due to the ECL limitation), and all the combat feats (Power Attack, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Rapid Shot, Spirited Charge, EWP: Spiked Chain depending on your persuasion). Not to mention [Greater] Spell Penetration, which is pretty big for offensive casters in a place where there's no easy way to overcome Spell Resistance. That's more than enough to use all the 8 slots up until 18.

I'd say Rebuke is much more powerful than Turn though it also takes basically no investment. All it means is you can mind control some intelligent undead permanently which opens up some really awesome options with Liches, Vampires & company. Getting underlings is useful vs. everything while Turning is only useful vs. Undead. And Rebuke/Command still works vs. Undead too so I'd say Rebuke comes out far ahead but of course, I still don't consider Charisma anything but a vanity stat on Evil Necromancer Clerics in Core. 3 uses is plenty and +1 Cleric Level is nice if you can afford it but not something to replace basic competence with unless you go pure caster (in which case Wis > Con > Cha is fine).

[sleepyphoenixx]

...
If we're only talking about Cha investment i agree. The really important stat for turning is Effective Cleric Level, and Cha doesn't do anything for that.
The only reason i can see for investing into Cha for turning is if it gets you another use of DMM.

[Eldariel]

If we're only talking about Cha investment i agree. The really important stat for turning is Effective Cleric Level, and Cha doesn't do anything for that.
The only reason i can see for investing into Cha for turning is if it gets you another use of DMM.

Aye, I had to send the original post in extreme haste so I didn't actually get to flesh it out; it came out much blunter than intended. I suppose we're in agreement. There are some other divine feats, which are worth mentioning besides DMM though; Divine Spell Power, Domain Spontaneity, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Divine Defiance are all ones where you tend to burn through uses fast enough to want more, and where the uses are generally worth it. Though Extra Turning is generally DMM-specific since it's the only one that burns so many uses.

[denthor]

First time playing with this DM, not sure he's gonna let use that.



Combat Reflexes, thats the idea. To take so I can make up to 3 AoO every turn.

Not sure about the campaign, I have no information. My issue with putting 15 CHA seems a lot of waste for just some random undead. Yes, theyre important, but I might be using a lot more a 15 in Dex and STR

Not every round everyone gets a free five foot shift.

If they withdraw they are considered taking cautionto deny you that attack.

You get only if they move more then 5 feet in a round and move in your threat range.

Cleric 's do two things turn undead and heal. Not much else. Have been playing for 20 years plus.

[Letric]

Not every round everyone gets a free five foot shift.

If they withdraw they are considered taking cautionto deny you that attack.

You get only if they move more then 5 feet in a round and move in your threat range.

Cleric 's do two things turn undead and heal. Not much else. Have been playing for 20 years plus.

Guess your 20 + years of experience are quite boring just healing.

[Eldariel]

Cleric 's do two things turn undead and heal. Not much else. Have been playing for 20 years plus.

This isn't Basic. 3.X Clerics get 9th level spells. And Domains. They also get Fighter bonus attacks and the biggest source of bonus damage in the game (Power Attack). Their buffs are unrivaled and their casting is up there with Wizards. They debuff, kill, fight, control, buff. Healing and Turning Undead are 750gp items and free class features respectively - nothing you are actually paying from your main power for. Their real power is in just outfighting the Fighter while casting like a Wizard in heavy armor. And looking damn good doing it, This isn't AD&D - 3.5 Clerics are godlike and anyone whose experience disagrees has probably never seen one played to its potential (or anywhere near it by the sound of things). Which is understandable - spell selection and use takes system mastery many lack, particularly outside online forums.

[Letric]

Since it's my first time playiing with this DM (online) I will go with:

Dwarf Cleric of Moradin with Good and Protection Domain.

I will take Combat Reflexes, then PA (when it's worth) and then who knows! Im taking Quicken Spell, but we're starting at level 1, so it's gonna take some time.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not every round everyone gets a free five foot shift.

If they withdraw they are considered taking cautionto deny you that attack.

You get only if they move more then 5 feet in a round and move in your threat range.

Cleric 's do two things turn undead and heal. Not much else. Have been playing for 20 years plus.

Movement is hardly the only thing provoking AoO's. And you can force movement too to make your enemies provoke.
Withdrawing is a full-round action, so the enemy doing that to avoid your AoO is honestly an even better outcome for you. Not to mention that it only prevents AoO's triggered from the square you started withdrawing from, so anyone with a reach weapon still gets one if you start out adjacent to them.

As for clerics only doing TU and healing, i'm honestly questioning if you're actually serious. Clerics being top-tier powerful is rather common knowledge by now after all.
In case you are a simple look at the spell list already proves you wrong, even in core-only. Splatbooks just add more variety to that. And not noticing wands of CLW for over 2 decades is a little sad.

[Eldariel]

Since it's my first time playiing with this DM (online) I will go with:

Dwarf Cleric of Moradin with Good and Protection Domain.

I will take Combat Reflexes, then PA (when it's worth) and then who knows! Im taking Quicken Spell, but we're starting at level 1, so it's gonna take some time.

Mmm, I'd consider Earth domain over Good. Good isn't all that but Earth has some nice non-Cleric spells and a niche ability that isn't bad compared to the Good domain one (though if you plan to Summon a lot, Good domain's caster level boost can actually be better as Summons count as Good spells when summoning Good things). PA is nice as long as you two-hand, but I wouldn't pick it before 6-9 since you won't have the attack bonus to spare. Do consider Improved Trip too though; very good for making reach do more work and protect your allies. Middle-Aged would qualify you if you put 12 in Int. You can find rules for higher age categories here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age) or in the PHB. Cleric and Dwarf are a place where starting at a higher age is quite natural anyways. But yes, Quicken Spell is doable on level 9 earliest. Then you can Quicken Divine Favor which...can actually be a rather good buff spell on that level. Usually a level 9-12 pickup.

[Letric]

Went with Half orc of Grumsh with Strength and War domain.
I dont particularly love those domains, but Chaos and Evil are even worst.
Skills are Concentration and Heal and Combat Reflexes my feat.

Lets see what happens!

[Seharvepernfan]

Also, never have used turn undead, extremely complicated mechanic for little benefit

You say that, because you've never wiped out entire encounters on round 1 with it before.