What Would You Change: Druid

[Protato]

Seeing the Bard thread (which in turn comes off the heel of a similar thread about Barbarian), I was wondering what the folks here would change about everyone's favorite (or statistically least-favorite) nature caster.

Personally I'd make it so everyone would get abilities other than using WS, much like the new UA Spores Druid does. Some players don't like WS and I personally am not a big fan of it with my Dreams Druid. If there was another option for using WS I think the Druid might just be more popular. Additionally, the class fluff should change to not be as restricting to players, and the metal armor restriction should not be in the game either.

[hymer]

I would change the moon druid's wild shape. I'm thinking it should have the basic wild shape options of all druids, but then add a 'fight form', with scaling stats, and the look of any natural beast (with an option for being larger) the druid prefers. The moon druid could then add e.g. blindsight or flight to the form by expending another wild shape charge.
This should avoid the spikes and valleys of the moon druid wild shape, and it would not interact with unlimited wild shapes at level 20.

I'd also keep scaling the basic wild shape after eight. I have no idea why it stops like that.

[mephnick]

- Remove Metal Armour restriction or at least provide options for comparable "natural" options.

- Moon Druid still needs full action to wildshape into forms granted by Combat Wild Shape, but gets BA normal wild shape.

- Better fluff write up that doesn't put priority on hippy jerk druids.

- A few less concentration spells. Just a few.

- Rebalance the Land druid circle options and maybe give them a small second bonus based on their choice.

I like the druid for the most part so I'm not married to any of this other than the metal armour thing.

[ZorroGames]

Access to non-metal armor in general, but expecially for Druids, seems like something that should exist more commonly.

WS for non-Moon Druids should not be less powerful in a total sense. Higher CR but maybe delayed or limited to non-Moon types?

Caveat: never played a Druid in any edition. They were pretty much NPCs in my OD&D gaming.

[Dudewithknives]

All the druid issues would be solved if WotC gave a crap about anything but new spells.

Look at all that new armor and those new weapons, that have been published.... oh, they have published nothing other than 1 piece of crap armor for one subclass in one book and a few pieces of gear that is campaign specific and worse than the normal weapons.

[dejarnjc]

Seeing the Bard thread (which in turn comes off the heel of a similar thread about Barbarian), I was wondering what the folks here would change about everyone's favorite (or statistically least-favorite) nature caster.

Personally I'd make it so everyone would get abilities other than using WS, much like the new UA Spores Druid does. Some players don't like WS and I personally am not a big fan of it with my Dreams Druid. If there was another option for using WS I think the Druid might just be more popular. Additionally, the class fluff should change to not be as restricting to players, and the metal armor restriction should not be in the game either.

I would change wildshape and make the progression smoother by having it so that wildshape gives you temp HP (determined by character level & the size of wildshape beast), a melee damaging option (the "to hit" and "damage" options determined by character level & size of wildshape beast), and movement/skill proficiency options (determined by creature type). As complicated as this sounds, it's probably less complicated than having to constantly look up the stats for different shapes and could easily be encompassed in a relatively small chart.

This might fix the whole "OMG, lvl 2 moondruid is OP" and the complaints about druids having infinite HP.

[Aett_Thorn]

1) Give them some class abilities that aren't WS-focused. Their only class feature currently, after level 1, that isn't really focused on WS is Timeless Body, which isn't all that useful to begin with.

2) Each subclass should gain a feature that uses the WS resource, but might not actually be a wild shape. Much like each Cleric Domain gets a different type of Channel Divinity, Druids should instead get "Nature Affinity" 2/short rest. Then the base Druid gets Nature Affinity: Wildshape, and each Circle gets their own subset Nature Affinity.

3) Their spell list just needs some rebalancing overall. Lots of concentration spells and spells that seem to be trap options. Overall, I love the spell list, but it can be a bit clunky in practice.

4) Nature's Sanctuary: at 14th level, how many beasts/plants are you fighting for this to come into effect?

[dejarnjc]

3) Their spell list just needs some rebalancing overall. Lots of concentration spells and spells that seem to be trap options. Overall, I love the spell list, but it can be a bit clunky in practice.


They definitely need a few more non-concentration spells. Barkskin should be non-concentration at the very least. Between wildshape and concentration spells, the rest of my party is out waaaaaaaaaaaay before me which I guess is nice for out of combat healing but is overall kind of boring. This does let me use lots of non-combat spells though with little worry though, so I guess there is that tradeoff.

[Vogie]

I definitely like the idea of augmenting/replacing the WildShape feature like the Circle of Spores did.

For example,

Land Druids having an ability to eventually have a World Shape", becoming one with the immediate environment, similar to the Boneyard Manifestation from the Geist: The Sin-Eaters RPG. At 2nd level, the Druid's body is just lying about. At 4th, some amount of protection is given. At 8th, the Druids actually turns into a part of the landscape, like a tree or rock, gaining additional protection.
Shepherd Druids have something like the 3.P Druids, using their "Wild shape" as some variant of Conjure Animals, except it's limited to a certain type of animal
Dream Druids have a "Mirror Shape", where they can manifest a second version of themselves in Dreamland, which can maintain concentration of a spell on your behalf, effectively allowing that Circle to concentrate on two different spells simultaneously.
Moon Druids gain the ability to shift into a max CR of 1 & 1/4 over their level
Twilight Druids gain something akin to a Channel Divinity ability from a cleric or Paladin.

[samcifer]

I'd add a striker-focused subclass that adds in more spells that do damage and end without concentration like Disentegration and Fire Bolt.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I'd probably rewrite the whole thing. Well not everything. Probably keep how wildshape works seems solid there. But the subclasses, the core class features yeah everything would be moved around changed dropped and new stuff added.


Would still be Druid but just different mechanically.


To be fair though i think 5e Druid is fine as it is. Feels a tiny bit stale when it comes to Lore druid and the base class though. maybe more than a tiny bit.

[Wryte]

The two major issue I see, with the caveat that I haven't gotten around to playing a druid myself yet, are 1) that almost all the class's core features are just Wild Shape upgrades, and 2) that Wild Shape interferes with your other primary feature: spellcasting.

#1 causes two related problems: it makes the class somewhat dull to single-class, because little incremental changes to an ability you already have are pretty much never as fun as getting a whole new ability; and at the same time makes multiclassing as or into druid very underwhelming because their only core feature is Wild Shape, which requires those little incremental improvements to actually be worth anything more than an out of combat utility feature.

#2 is a little more straightforward. Not being able to cast spells in Wild Shape until level 18, coupled with only being able to use Wild Shape twice a rest until level 20, creates an awkward disconnect between the two where it very rarely feels like you're getting the most out of both features. If you were drawn to the class to be a spellcaster, Wild Shape is of relatively little use to you because you'll burn both your uses very quickly due to needing to revert to cast new spells. If you were drawn to the class by Wild Shape, spellcasting is little more than your backup plan because you can't do it while you're shapeshifted.

So a hypothetical fix to druids would need to 1) reduce the number of patches to Wild Shape coming as later level class features to make the class more appealing for multiclassing, 2) replace those patches with new features to keep single-classing druid appealing, and 3) resolve the disconnect between Wild Shape and spellcasting.

Alright, here goes:

Wild Shape
Starting at 2nd level, you can expend a spell slot to attune yourself to the spirit of a kind of beast you are familiar with. The beast's CR must be equal or less than half the level of the spell slot you expended (rounded down). You must expend a spell slot of 2nd level or higher to attune to a beast with a swimming speed, and a spell slot of 4th level or higher to attune to a beast with a flying speed.

For a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down) you can magically assume the shape of that beast or revert to your normal form as a bonus action. You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Merged equipment has no effect until you revert to your normal form. Worn equipment functions as normal, but does not change shape or size to fit your new form, and any equipment that is impractical for your new form to use must fall to the ground or merge with the new form. You automatically revert to your normal form if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die, and your attunement to the spirit is ended.

While you are transformed, your size category, creature type, armor class, speed, and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores are replaced by the beast's. You gain any saving throw proficiencies, skill proficiencies, and special senses that the beast possesses, as well as its features and actions other than legendary and lair actions. You retain any benefits and features from your class, race, or any other source and can use them if your new form is physically capable of doing so. Your new form limits your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands, and you cannot cast spells in your new form; however, transforming does not break your concentration on spells you've already cast, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell you are concentrating on, such as call lightning.

These changes would also necessitate some changes to the Circle of the Moon's interactions with Wild Shape:

Circle of the Moon: Combat Wild Shape
The rites of your circle grant you the ability to transform into more dangerous animal form. Starting at 2nd level, you can attune to the spirit of beasts whose CR is equal or less than the level of the spell slot you expended minus 1 (minimum CR 1). Additionally, while you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

Circle of the Moon: Circle Forms
The rites of your circle deepen your bond with a bestial spirit. At 2nd level, choose a beast which meets the requirements for a Wild Shape attuned to with a 1st level spell slot. You can attune to this beast for an hour without expending a spell slot twice. You regain expended uses of this feature when you finish a long rest. You choose an additional circle form at 6th level which must meet the requirements of a Wild Shape attuned to with a 3rd level spell slot, and another at 10th level which must meet the requirements of a Wild Shape attuned to with a 5th level spell slot.

When you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of your favored forms and replace it with another that meets the requirements for a Wild Shape attunement with a spell slot equal to half your druid level (rounded down).

[Socratov]

Some excellent points have been made already, but of course I'd like to add my couple of cp.


I would change the moon druid's wild shape. I'm thinking it should have the basic wild shape options of all druids, but then add a 'fight form', with scaling stats, and the look of any natural beast (with an option for being larger) the druid prefers. The moon druid could then add e.g. blindsight or flight to the form by expending another wild shape charge.
This should avoid the spikes and valleys of the moon druid wild shape, and it would not interact with unlimited wild shapes at level 20.

I'd also keep scaling the basic wild shape after eight. I have no idea why it stops like that.
I agree, a unique subclass should never lose to a subclass that is more generic (moondruid vs landdruid)

- Remove Metal Armour restriction or at least provide options for comparable "natural" options.
snip
Hear Hear! Ribbon abilities are nice, but a geas is never fun if it doesn't give you anything. And I know this has been debated to Asmodeus' little cot downstairs and back, but this shouldn't have made it into the final version.[quote]


As for wildshape: I think I would have it progress like a barbarian's rages and instead of turning into a creature I'd have it grant the druid temp HP similar to a barbarian getting bonus damage on his attacks (like 1 beast HD per barb dmg bonus) and granting the druid certain abilities based on the creature in question: natural weapons, movement modes, stuff like pack tactics, the works. The effects end when the Temp HP run out, or for X hours (X related to the number of classlevels in druid). Wildshape, imo would become like the possession abilities of Shaman King. Moon druids would be the possession type: they take on the literal aspects of their animals, teeth, claws, legs, horns, you name it, a total package which should help you be great at the front line. Shepherd Druids pull the animal's spirits into the tools they wield (like the oversoul mehcanic in Shaman King), and get a heftier, but much more specialised bonus to a certain thing (maybe not unlike the 3.5 incarnum features, but without the loss of item slots). Land Druids would craft/drop totems which can grant an area of effect, very minor, but it might be granting a minor speed buff for allies, thorns leeching the enemy form HP, or situation effects like an area of silence or whatnot. It would serve to make the druids more distinct and give wildshape the attention it needs. and from lvl 6 or 8 onward the druid can keep up his wildshape as well as his spellcasting.

Though to be really fair, I kind of like Druid a lot.

[MrStabby]

A lot of my views have already been echoed here. A few refinements or similar:

1) Wildshape. I think that this would work well if a druid had another resource like sorcery points. You could buy different transformations with these, primarily based on CR/utility. Cap of points by druid level. So you could buy a rat form for sneaking into places for a small number of druid points, a bird for some more, a T-rex for a lot. Elemental forms and similar can fit within this structure as well. Non wildshape options available to spend these points on as well.

2) Wildshape as a beast form. Play up the lycanthropy side - transform into a half human half beast with some attributes of both. This plays up the "moon" aspect of circle of the moon and supports more interesting multiclassing options if they mesh with other character attributes more cleanly. So many cool characters could come out of this.

3) It would be nice if we could ditch the elemental theme is we didn't want it. Maybe emphasise an elemental druid as a sub-class. I guess I do "get" why elemental theme is in druid - i won't say it doesn't have a role - but I think a plant/animal themed "nature" would be good.

4) Wildshape to include some plant forms and plant attributes. If a pints based system then things like scaling levels of bark-skin, roots to help with grapple and shove and so on, maybe siege damage bonus.

5) I have tried (and it does need some more rework) to build a revised druid around some of these as a half caster (with a lot of "druid points" - like monk Ki they power spells). Being a half caster you can still be powerful and have a lot of cool abilities but be focused on less flashy spells.

6) I would love to have an option to build a Fey themed druid. There is some support from conjure animals and conjure woodland beings, moonbeam feels like it fits here. The enchantment and illusion spells associated with the Fey are somewhat lacking to be able to build this (fairy fire notwithstanding). Closest I can get is with a lore bard and then not until level 6 when I can begin to take other spells.

7) A specific animal theme. Druids feel like they don't specialise with wild shape. I would prefer it if you picked an animal and levelled up the beast form as you advanced. A spider druid, an eagle druid or a jaguar druid would be pretty awesome.

8) Add find familiar to the druid spell list. Wizards, warlocks, arcane tricksters, eldritch knights can all have a small beast follow them around and help them. Not so the druid.


Well that was one hell of a wishlist and somewhat more than I intended to write when i began.

[Dr. Cliché]

2) Wildshape as a beast form. Play up the lycanthropy side - transform into a half human half beast with some attributes of both. This plays up the "moon" aspect of circle of the moon and supports more interesting multiclassing options if they mesh with other character attributes more cleanly. So many cool characters could come out of this.


I'd actually love to see a Ranger subclass based around this.

[JBPuffin]

Make it explicit that Druids can wear metal armor, and that the whole non-metal thing was never actually a restriction on the class.

Beyond that little nitpick, there's the problem I have with bards and clerics as well, but not as much: what can they not do? They heal, they BFC, they deal damage, they can sideline and/or frontline...my first 5e campaign, I played a VHuman Arctic Druid from levels 4-9, and I had a blast. At different levels, I was a second-line fighter, the main tank, and a secondary spellslinger, and if I'd wanted to? I could've done it all. Druid doesn't have the same problem as bards and clerics do because they have fewer options and step on fewer toes, and their fluff and other features make it clear they're supposed to be more competent in melee, but...they are still 9th-level casters with another pool of hit points and combat/utility abilities to draw upon, and if they want to, they can fill in as the party's tank/secondary line.

[Osrogue]

Not much. I wish I could “upcast” my favored animal forms mostly, but that’s something that can easily be home brewed I think.

I wish wildshapes scaled like warlock spell slots.

Why is Barkskin concentration? It’s weaker than Mage Armor and it’s a second level spell. Scrap the concentration and it would actually be worth preparing.

Edit: While I don’t really care about wearing metal armor, I wish I had the option. Druids use metal weapons and metal spellcasting materials. Why is metal armor the taboo?

[MeimuHakurei]

I don't have exact numbers worked out, but the main changes would be to wildshapes and summons (which I would also apply to polymorph effects) to make the former more relevant to your stats (so Moon Druids aren't a do-everything ZAD class anymore) and the latter to be limited to one creature at a time and independent from knowing Monster Manual statistics.

Wild Shape:
-Gives you a bonus to physical stats based on the size of your form.
-Unlocks more sizes as you gain levels.
-Has you retain your own HP and mental stats, while retaining everything else you kept in the old rules as well.
-For turning into a beast, gain Multiattack and a scaling claw/bite/slam/etc. attack (your choice what attacks you get), possibly more
-Also, the ability to select a movement bonus, with swim, burrow and fly speed unlocked as you level
-Moon Druids get better physical stat bonuses, add a bonus to their wildshape's AC and gain temp HP as well.

Polymorph:
-Now functions as Wildshape for the purpose of what you can turn the target into.
-Unlike wildshape, you're allowed to choose a stat penalty instead as well as removing/reducing speeds.

True Polymorph/Shapechange:
-Gain physical stats similar to wildshape.
-Gain other bonuses if transformed into a non-beast (Dragons get a breath weapon, Fey get a little innate casting, Undead get Undead Fortitude etc.)
-Creature-to-object and object-to-creature cannot be made permanent with True Polymorph.

Summons would work akin to 3.5's Astral Construct where you have a baseline creature that you can outfit with abilities as you see fit. Each summon spell would add its own options to the list. Also, you can only ever control one summon at a time. Even 3.PF doesn't let you throw down a few dozen creatures in one spell slot without some cheese like chaingating Solars.

[Beelzebubba]

I'd make Ankheg armor just as available as equivalent metal armor at the same specs and cost. It's just fluff to give some real armor to multi-classers and non-purists.

[Beelzebubba]

Oh yeah, also, if a player really really didn't want Wild Shape, I'd work with them to home-brew something. Maybe give them the Nature Cleric domain abilities (without the turning undead) or work with them to buff the Land Druid with other to make up for it, thematically appropriate for the circle, and if at all possible it would be grabbing abilities or things from other classes rather than writing brand new ones.

Like, extending their Circle's domain spells to 1st level, buffing Land's Stride to include their Circle (i.e. Arctic handles ice and snow terrain with no penalty, Mountain climbs with no speed penalty), then add similar stuff along the way that shows their progression towards total oneness with their Circle (i.e. Arctic would get a 'ribbon' of immunity to effects of cold weather early on, then Cold Resistance, and maybe even Elemental Adept for Cold spells).

I prefer to run a game without that level of home-brew, so I'd wait for someone to ask on their own, only after I've gamed with them for a while, before I even gave it a thought.

[ZorroGames]

Wyrte,

Have you seen PeteNutButter’s multi-class guide? Superb tool.

Enough that I started a Ranger dip on a new character that will be my first ever PC Druid after Ranger 5. I plan on using WS only as a non-combat tool as much as possible. The Druid section has some good ideas on Druids.

Gracias,
Glenn

[Alderic78]

Wild shape is the reason I like druids, and also one of the only issues of the class. I'd like to see a wild shape ability that did't require you to page through the MM.
There have been several attempts at this in the past, and all had their issues, so I don't know what would get the correct balance.
The main issue is of course with combat wild shape.

I would probably start with some temp HP, a single melee attack (claw or bite) for 1d8 damage, possibly based on Wis for both attack and damage, and most likely an unarmored ac of some kind.
Scale from there, adding the possibility of gaining some animal abilities, extra attacks while in wild shape, unlocking flying and swimming forms later on, as I said, not sure how to make it right.

[Socratov]

Wild shape is the reason I like druids, and also one of the only issues of the class. I'd like to see a wild shape ability that did't require you to page through the MM.
There have been several attempts at this in the past, and all had their issues, so I don't know what would get the correct balance.
The main issue is of course with combat wild shape.

I would probably start with some temp HP, a single melee attack (claw or bite) for 1d8 damage, possibly based on Wis for both attack and damage, and most likely an unarmored ac of some kind.
Scale from there, adding the possibility of gaining some animal abilities, extra attacks while in wild shape, unlocking flying and swimming forms later on, as I said, not sure how to make it right.

Well, to make it simple, Wildshape could function like a form of Alter Self, where you have the options to add packets to your character, much like totems with the barbarian, but slightly different.

You could say that at lvl 2 (when WS becomes available) one gains a new mode of attack. At lvl 4 comes aquatic travel, aka, swimspeed (gills included), lvl 8 gives wings, aka fly speed (when wildshaping you must choose to either fly run or swim).

Then somewhere along the line you pick up a speed boost, you get a boost to a specific attribute when wildshaped, a secondary effect to scale your attacks better (rend for claws, constrict for slam, trip for bite, trample for gore), a defnesive aspect (extra AC, specific resistances regarding elements) and maybe some environmental effects (when you would get your elemental shapes, so you either ignite, freeze, squeeze through small spaces, hover, whatever), etc. then this replaces wildshape and you add a certain die progression as temp HP when wildshaping and you're done.

Now when you level up you pick an option and keep using it: as the feature will improve of give you more options. While this alows it to become a bit more mix-and-match, on the other hand you can't pick other types, so once you are locked into claws, you can't switch to slam or gore.