Silver Dragon Alternate Form

[InterstellarPro]

So, one of my players is planning to take the Dragon Cohort feat. He wants a silver dragon companion. So, I started reading up on the specifics of a silver dragon. Their alternate form ability is a bit confusing. Alternate Form does not seem to function like Wild Shape or Polymorph (both of which explicitly state that you cannot take a form with more HD than you have druid levels or caster level). Alternate form has no such limitation. So, would a wyrmling silver dragon be able to take the form of a legendary ape (wyrmling silver dragon = 7 HD, legendary ape = 13 HD)?

I am ruling with what I feel is a common sense decision, and I told the player that the dragon can choose a form with no more HD than it has itself (as that follows at least two other similar abilities). He agreed that made sense. So, I am not looking for "how should I rule on this matter?". That decision is already made. I am looking for "how do the rules actually work?" Is the wyrmling silver dragon supposed to be able to take a form that has a strength of 30?

[Darrin]

Alternate Form does not seem to function like Wild Shape or Polymorph (both of which explicitly state that you cannot take a form with more HD than you have druid levels or caster level). Alternate form has no such limitation. So, would a wyrmling silver dragon be able to take the form of a legendary ape (wyrmling silver dragon = 7 HD, legendary ape = 13 HD)?


Alternate Form in the Monster Manual says:

"This ability works much like the polymorph spell, except that the creature is limited to the forms specified, and does not regain any hit points for changing its form."

The Silver Dragon entry also reiterates that, "This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level". This means it follows all of the limitations of the polymorph spell, including caster level limits and the 15 HD max. It's an (Su) ability, and although it mentions "caster level" in the description, it does not actually list a caster level for Alternate Form, so you use the dragon's HD as its caster level.



I am ruling with what I feel is a common sense decision, and I told the player that the dragon can choose a form with no more HD than it has itself (as that follows at least two other similar abilities). He agreed that made sense. So, I am not looking for "how should I rule on this matter?". That decision is already made. I am looking for "how do the rules actually work?" Is the wyrmling silver dragon supposed to be able to take a form that has a strength of 30?

Your ruling fits with RAW, near as I can determine. At 13 HD, a silver dragon would have access to a legendary ape form, although those forms are sort of begging for a DM Ruling, as "Legendary Animal" should probably be considered a template rather than a distinctly different creature from a normal ape.

[Deophaun]

It's an (Su) ability, and although it mentions "caster level" in the description, it does not actually list a caster level for Alternate Form, so you use the dragon's HD as its caster level.
"its caster level" is defined in the progression chart. A wyrmling does not have a caster level, so technically it cannot use its alternate form ability until it's young, at which point it has a caster level of 1.

[MeimuHakurei]

Alternate Form on the Silver Dragon specifies a medium or smaller humanoid. A legendary ape is an animal and therefore not a valid choice for the dragon. This ability basically lets your dragon seem like a perfectly ordinary person to common folk (who might not want a dragon in their town, metallic or not).

Silver Dragons are very friendly and like interacting with humans, so having one as a cohort seems like a nice idea. Would probably be of a race the dragon most commonly interacts with.

[Darrin]

"its caster level" is defined in the progression chart. A wyrmling does not have a caster level, so technically it cannot use its alternate form ability until it's young, at which point it has a caster level of 1.

No. The caster level on the progression chart only refers to Sorcerer spellcasting. Alternate Form is a different ability entirely. There's no indication in the text that the Sorcerer caster level is used for the dragon's other (Su) abilities, or vice versa. A wyrmling silver dragon has Alternate Form as an ability, and the text does not specify a specific caster level for it to use, so it uses its HD as per the rules on MM p. 315.

I really don't think it's stretching RAW to conclude that of the two different ways to read "caster level", that you'd have to pick the one that resulted in the designers giving a creature a signature ability that they can't even use until they have 13HD.


Alternate Form on the Silver Dragon specifies a medium or smaller humanoid.

In the interests of pedantry, text specifies "any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller".

[Deophaun]

No. The caster level on the progression chart only refers to Sorcerer spellcasting. Alternate Form is a different ability entirely. There's no indication in the text that the Sorcerer caster level is used for the dragon's other (Su) abilities, or vice versa.
Except for where it says "equal to its caster level."

A wyrmling silver dragon has Alternate Form as an ability, and the text does not specify a specific caster level for it to use,
Except for where it says "equal to its caster level."

so it uses its HD as per the rules on MM p. 315.
Which says "unless otherwise noted," and it's otherwise noted. So if p. 315 is in play, then it must use the caster level of "-." If it's not in play, then it's not in play.

that you'd have to pick the one that resulted in the designers giving a creature a signature ability that they can't even use until they have 13HD.
Or they cannot even use until prepubesence (or take a level in a spellcasting class to gain a caster level before that). But, that doesn't sound as much of an insurmountable obstacle.

[Darrin]

Except for where it says "equal to its caster level."

Which is not specified as a numeric value. Therefore you use the creature's HD.

All other monster entries specify the caster level with text that says "caster level equal to N", where N can be "character level", "class level", "5th", etc. The silver dragon has no such text under it's (Su) ability, and there's no evidence to conclude that it's Sorcerer casting ability has any relation to it's (Su) or SLA abilities.

[Deophaun]

Which is not specified as a numeric value. Therefore you use the creature's HD.
No. Wrong. Incorrect. False.

315 does most decidedly not say "Unless it's given a numeric value." It says, quite simply, "unless otherwise noted." This. Is. Otherwise. Noted.

You basically have one of two interpretations with what you're saying:

The first, which I think you are arguing, is that the phrase "equal to its caster level" is completely and totally meaningless. It would function the same if that phrase was not there. This is untenable, as it's just ignoring details you find inconvenient.

The second, which has its own bizarre interaction, is that the ability is based on the dragon's HD up until it reaches the young age category, at which point it drops from CL 12 to CL 1, and it will have to wait until the very old category to get the same functionality out of it.

Or, you could just go with the simple one that says a spellcasting silver dragon of any age can use alternate form, while a non-spellcasting silver dragon has to wait until they're young. But, apparently, the fact that an ability isn't useful for every creature makes it completely worthless, and the idea of latent abilities is pure lunacy.

[Darrin]

315 does most decidedly not say "Unless it's given a numeric value." It says, quite simply, "unless otherwise noted." This. Is. Otherwise. Noted.


The (Su) mentions the caster level. This is, in fact, notation of a sort. Yes. But it does not NOTE what the caster level is equal to. Look at the Archon's Teleport (Su) and Tongues (Su) abilities:

Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th)

Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th).

Some (Su) abilities use the language "caster level equals HD", such as the Ghael's Protective Aura (Su).

So when I say that the silver dragon's Alternate Form (Su) ability does not NOTE the caster level, that is what I mean. There is no specific language as used throughout the rest of the Monster Manual to NOTE that the caster level is equal to a numeric value. So when I go to page 315, my conclusion is that the numeric value of the caster level has NOT been otherwise noted.



The first, which I think you are arguing, is that the phrase "equal to its caster level" is completely and totally meaningless. It would function the same if that phrase was not there. This is untenable, as it's just ignoring details you find inconvenient.


That is not what I am arguing. What I am saying is that when the Su mentions caster level, it is referring to HD, as per the rules on page 315. The designers used sloppy wording here. They could have used HD, and probably meant to use HD, but used "caster level" instead. That may be RAI on my part, but that makes more sense to me than giving the silver dragon an (Su) ability it can't even use.



The second, which has its own bizarre interaction, is that the ability is based on the dragon's HD up until it reaches the young age category, at which point it drops from CL 12 to CL 1, and it will have to wait until the very old category to get the same functionality out of it.


I discarded that interpretation as untenable. I can't think of any other examples where a creature is granted spellcasting ability, and that this ability somehow dictates the caster level for it's other Su and SLA abilities. I can't find any textual evidence that the notation of "caster level" in Alternate Form is referring to the dragon's sorcerer's abilities.



Or, you could just go with the simple one that says a spellcasting silver dragon of any age can use alternate form, while a non-spellcasting silver dragon has to wait until they're young.


That's simple, yes, but I still don't see any examples of a creature taking spellcasting levels having any effect on his racial (Su) abilities. They are two separate abilities, each with their own independent caster level.



But, apparently, the fact that an ability isn't useful for every creature makes it completely worthless, and the idea of latent abilities is pure lunacy.

The idea of latent abilities is already there: the silver dragon gains Sorcerer abilities as it ages, as well as additional SLAs/Sus. But the same table also quite clearly gives the wyrmling the Alternate Form ability, and as far as I can tell they intended the wyrmling to be able to use it. The Alternate Form text does not specify a numeric value for the caster level. Page 315 does so. Good enough for me. You're welcome to use whatever interpretation works best for your group.

[Deophaun]

The (Su) mentions the caster level. This is, in fact, notation of a sort. Yes. But it does not NOTE what the caster level is equal to.
It does, you just refuse to recognize it. There's a difference.

Look at the Archon's Teleport (Su) and Tongues (Su) abilities:
All irrelevant. There is no rule concerning format. You are pulling it out of your rear end.

Some (Su) abilities use the language "caster level equals HD", such as the Ghael's Protective Aura (Su).
Yeah, which is proof that they know what they are doing. They copy and paste. And you're saying here they copy and pasted wrong.

So when I say that the silver dragon's Alternate Form (Su) ability does not NOTE the caster level, that is what I mean.
It gives a reference to the caster level, which is then provided on the aging chart. Again, though, this is irrelevant. What is relevant is that we are told otherwise than the general rule on page 315. It could say "equal to blue," and, while we may puzzle over what it means, the fact that it is noted otherwise is enough to say it's not equal to HD. You are picking and chosing what part of page 315 you wish to listen to, but I'm not letting you. If we listen to all of it, it's not HD. If we listen to none of it, then there is no reason to think it's HD: How do you wish to be wrong?

That is not what I am arguing. What I am saying is that when the Su mentions caster level, it is referring to HD, as per the rules on page 315.
Except the problem is, page 315 doesn't say that. Which leaves you with "as per nothing." "Because I wanna."

I can't find any textual evidence that the notation of "caster level" in Alternate Form is referring to the dragon's sorcerer's abilities.
Except, of course for the millionth time, where it says "at its caster level." At least you're no longer ignoring it. You're now just saying it's a typo. Somehow, ctrl+v bugged out and miraculously corrupted "HD" into "caster level." You won't find a glitch like that again in the entire universe, but it happened, honest.

The idea of latent abilities is already there: the silver dragon gains Sorcerer abilities as it ages, as well as additional SLAs/Sus.
That's not latent. That's undeveloped. Latent powers exist, but they lack a catalyst. It's a car without a starter. But provide the jolt, and it works.

The Alternate Form text does not specify a numeric value for the caster level. Page 315 does so. Good enough for me. You're welcome to use whatever interpretation works best for your group.
And you are welcome to be wrong.

[InterstellarPro]

The errata for the Monster Manual has overruled how Alternate Form works. It no longer uses Polymorph as its base ability. The SRD has the current wording of the Alternate Form ability. It does not mention any upper limit for HD, which is mentioned in the Polymorph spell pre-errata.

Now, after several rounds of errata to correct it, instead of all polymorph-like effects being based off Polymorph (alternate form, druid wild shape, et al.), they are based off Alternate Form. Druidic Wild Shape is based off alternate form (even though the PHB says it is like Polymorph). See the SRD for the Druid Wild Shape ability which describes it as "like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here". One of the notes in the Druid Wild Shape ability is that a chosen form is limited by hit dice. A druid cannot take a form that has more hit dice than the druid has levels: "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." This text is decidedly missing from the current Silver Dragon and Alternate Form entries, which could imply that there is no longer a hit dice cap for the Silver Dragon's alternate form ability.

I said in the original post I have already ruled that this ability is capped by the dragon's Hit Dice. Honestly, the more that I think about it, the more it seems like it was an oversight by WotC after MANY updates to the errata on Alternate Form. They must have simply thought that the text was still there, but by removing the ability's reliance on the Polymorph spell, they also removed the hit die cap. But, I obviously cannot know the minds of the WotC writers. I was hoping someone on this forum might have some insight as to what their intent was (rather than me simply going on my intuition).

[Lans]

This might be relevent from teh srd


Spell-Like Abilities
A dragon’s spell-like abilities depend on its age and variety. It gains the abilities indicated for its age plus all previous ones. Its age category or its sorcerer caster level, whichever is higher, is the caster level for these abilities. The save DC is 10 + dragon’s Cha modifier + spell level. All spell-like abilities are usable once per day unless otherwise noted.

Now the ability is SU so this merely a RAI argument

[MeimuHakurei]

Alternate Form (Su): A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an anirmal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

The smallest silver dragon that can use this is a Young Dragon, who can transform into any humanoid or animal that's medium or smaller with only 1 HD since its caster level is 1. There's like zero room to interpret this differently.

[Crake]

The smallest silver dragon that can use this is a Young Dragon, who can transform into any humanoid or animal that's medium or smaller with only 1 HD since its caster level is 1. There's like zero room to interpret this differently.

Except for the fact that, as noted earlier in the thread, people are all looking at pre-errata alternate form. Get with the times people, the polymorph errata was over a decade ago.

[Fizban]

Well it's likely they failed to notice that there was no longer a HD cap on most instances of alternate form, but even if they did it's entirely possible they wouldn't have cared. Because as long as PC access to alternate form is capped, nothing else matters: monsters are used by the DM, the DM gets to pick what they turn into with alternate form, and the DM should know better than to use that to char-op one monster into a more powerful monster that its supposed to be.

[Crake]

Well it's likely they failed to notice that there was no longer a HD cap on most instances of alternate form, but even if they did it's entirely possible they wouldn't have cared. Because as long as PC access to alternate form is capped, nothing else matters: monsters are used by the DM, the DM gets to pick what they turn into with alternate form, and the DM should know better than to use that to char-op one monster into a more powerful monster that its supposed to be.

To be fair, a legendary ape's stats are good, but you're losing out on flight, breath weapons, blindsense, 120ft darkvision and more. The dragon's trading a LOT for that form, so sure, 30 strength is nice, but it's not exactly game breaking.

[Lans]

The smallest silver dragon that can use this is a Young Dragon, who can transform into any humanoid or animal that's medium or smaller with only 1 HD since its caster level is 1. There's like zero room to interpret this differently.

Except for the erratta crossing out this part
This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an anirmal or humanoid.

[Fizban]

To be fair, a legendary ape's stats are good, but you're losing out on flight, breath weapons, blindsense, 120ft darkvision and more. The dragon's trading a LOT for that form, so sure, 30 strength is nice, but it's not exactly game breaking.
Oh, so its about 3 points stronger than Brown Bear. The rest of the stats are what make the pig, with the example of CR 4 wyrmling turning into animals listed at CR 7, I'd still say there's something wrong even without invoking player side rules.

Of course I wouldn't really allow or use the legendary animals for anything anyway, since they were explicitly created for 3.0 animal companions and both the MotW and MM2 entires say they aren't even created in-universe until a high level druid needs a companion (which since they aren't on the 3.5 list actually means they don't even exist), so you can't very well be all that familiar with them now can you?

[InterstellarPro]

Oh, so its about 3 points stronger than Brown Bear. The rest of the stats are what make the pig, with the example of CR 4 wyrmling turning into animals listed at CR 7, I'd still say there's something wrong even without invoking player side rules.

Of course I wouldn't really allow or use the legendary animals for anything anyway, since they were explicitly created for 3.0 animal companions and both the MotW and MM2 entires say they aren't even created in-universe until a high level druid needs a companion (which since they aren't on the 3.5 list actually means they don't even exist), so you can't very well be all that familiar with them now can you?

Legendary Apes were included in the MM II 3.5 Accessory Update. Here is the entry:


Legendary Ape: Animal; 5 ft./5 ft.; Climb +19, Listen +5, Move Silently +11, Spot +12; Alertness, Endurance, Toughness x2, Track; LA —; Feat improves Hit Dice to 13d8+45 (103 hp). See Monster Manual glossary for revised definition of rend.

The point was not whether I should allow it in my game or not. As Thurbane said, this is solidly in the "Ask the DM territory". Since I am the DM, I made the decision to limit forms to the dragon's HD at maximum. The player decided the dragon's standard form will be that of an Elf. But, if it does need a combat form (without revealing itself to be a dragon), it can pretend to be a druid and change into an animal.

The point was to question what the rules were actually intended to be. At this point, after continuing my research into the matter, it really does look like a simple oversight. After the errata, by RAW, it seems likely that the 7 HD dragon could, in theory, turn into a 7 HD legendary ape (because alternate form does not give you the hit dice of your target). The dragon would still have dragon attack progression (meaning full BAB and all good saves). But, it does not appear that was the intent. After reviewing all of the pre-errata and post-errata rules, it looks like they simply forgot that the ability was no longer limited by hit dice, and RAI would be to have some form of a limit.

To Crake's point, the dragon would NOT lose its darkvision, blindsense, or low-light vision when in animal or elf form. It is still a dragon when in those forms. Alternate form specifies that you retain the special qualities of your original form, which would include senses. A DM may rule that a form without eyes may not have darkvision or low-light vision, but blindsense would still be there. But, that would be a very rare case where such a ruling might even come up.

Anyway, the situation is resolved.

[Fizban]

Legendary Apes were included in the MM II 3.5 Accessory Update. Here is the entry:
And nothing in that entry changes the intent behind their original design or the text that says they don't exist until a druid needs them for a companion, or puts them on the 3.5 companion list.

Its always nice to see someone asking the "why?" and actually following it once found though, glad you decided to keep the old limit.