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View Full Version : Chain Shirt and Chainmail "upgrade," "Riveted Chain(shirt/mail)



AOKost
2018-01-29, 11:53 PM
Riveted Chain: This template is considered a masterwork component to be added to the cost of any chain shirt or chainmail. The cost to implement this is half again the base cost of the item. The benefits is greater durability, increasing the items hardness by 1 and it's HP by 5, while also increasing the items AC vs Critical Confirmation by 1.

I wanted to incorporate this because while 'normal' mail is probably utilizes 'butted' links to allow the mail to be produced faster and more cheaply, Riveted Mail actually rivets the links together making them far stronger... and to make them even stronger yet, they could be welded, but that would probably take magic or the equivalent. I wanted to increase the AC of Mail by 1 for this 'template' but at the same time, half again the items price for an additional +1 due to a masterwork component seemed a bit excessive, especially combined with the other attributes it possesses...

If anyone would like a great breakdown of a lot of armors in general as well as different materials of some and for this discussion in particular, here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJS1MziI98

Would anyone change anything I've suggested?

XionUnborn01
2018-01-30, 04:16 PM
For me, it just doesn't do enough to matter. The average soldier doesn't try to sunder armor often enough for it to count and the crit A.C. wouldn't make much of a difference. It's just too underwhelming to be worth adding. If it makes the armor tougher, add like 50% Hp to it, if it gives it better defenses give it a bonus to A.C.

AOKost
2018-02-01, 06:42 AM
... It's just too underwhelming to be worth adding. If it makes the armor tougher, add like 50% Hp to it, if it gives it better defenses give it a bonus to A.C.

I understand it's underwhelming, but most mundane item templates are generally rather dull when compared to magic.... The thing about this process is that it both makes the armor tougher, but it also provides better armor because the links of the armor aren't as easily separated or pulled apart...

Maybe I should think more along the lines of +50% Hp & +1 armor? Make the time to craft double due to how labor intensive it is, and possibly increase the price exponentially a couple of times because it 'gives' so much...

But that's what I'm here to figure out... For something like this, what's the benefits, because there are major practical benefits... though your point about it not really mattering in game much unless it actually adds to the AC is interesting... Most item templates (other than those that directly alter specifically a weapon somehow or add to armors AC) usually don't add too much to an item so I'm not trying to make this one 'template' or 'crafting technique' the single go-to for all chain equipment... just a 'nice perk/bonus' when it's needed...

Lvl 2 Expert
2018-02-01, 07:06 AM
There is only so much you can do with armor before you're stealing the spotlight from the next step up. If that's okay then +1 AC and +50% hp are fine, and the price should reflect this being better than whatever poor armor just got overshadowed. If you want this as a step in between, a cheap little flavor enhancement for the chain mail, the original idea is pretty cool.

AOKost
2018-02-02, 04:53 AM
There is only so much you can do with armor before you're stealing the spotlight from the next step up. If that's okay then +1 AC and +50% hp are fine, and the price should reflect this being better than whatever poor armor just got overshadowed. If you want this as a step in between, a cheap little flavor enhancement for the chain mail, the original idea is pretty cool.

My worry is replacing other templates with a single template that could be too cheap... for instance theres:

Durable costs double the standard equipment, does the same thing Hardness and HP wise, but doesn't have the armor bonus... Likewise Ysguardian Heartwire (I think that's what it's called) grants a +4 vs critical success rolls, not +1, so that's not totally outshined...

Durable could be added to this process I guess, trippling the cost appropriately...

LuminousWarrior
2018-02-02, 09:14 AM
I'm wondering what indicates that the regular chainmail isn't riveted? I would think that masterwork chainmail at least would be riveted. That's why it's the work of a master. And if the regular chainmail is butted, even in its masterwork state, wouldn't riveted mail work better as a completely new armour? Because riveted mail is in a league all of its own compared to butted mail, and would probably be better than some armors of a higher weight class.

AOKost
2018-02-06, 04:05 PM
I'm wondering what indicates that the regular chainmail isn't riveted? I would think that masterwork chainmail at least would be riveted. That's why it's the work of a master. And if the regular chainmail is butted, even in its masterwork state, wouldn't riveted mail work better as a completely new armour? Because riveted mail is in a league all of its own compared to butted mail, and would probably be better than some armors of a higher weight class.

That could very well be true... I've never read anywhere /how/ the chain links are put together in any books thus far so I was speculating.... It might well be that even masterwork chain is all butted, but this 'template' could be added from some race and hence why it's so rare or hasn't been mentioned before... Your suggestion about it being in a league of it's own compared to regular mail does make sense, and then I could see increasing it's Hardness by 1 or 2, and it's HP by 5 or 10 (depending on Hardness) and give it an extra 1 HP, but it also costs 6 times as much or some such...

Any suggestions? I'm just spit-balling at this point...

LuminousWarrior
2018-02-07, 07:36 AM
Butted mail is so ineffective that I cannot imagine it giving the sort of AC bonuses that chainmail gives. Thus, I personally would rule that the preexisting chainmail stats are for riveted mail. Instead, perhaps the other way around? Turn the regular (riveted) chainmail into butted mail.

Butted chainmail costs half as much as regular chainmail, but has half its regular hardness and the fragile property.

AOKost
2018-02-09, 02:31 AM
Butted mail is so ineffective that I cannot imagine it giving the sort of AC bonuses that chainmail gives. Thus, I personally would rule that the preexisting chainmail stats are for riveted mail. Instead, perhaps the other way around? Turn the regular (riveted) chainmail into butted mail.

Butted chainmail costs half as much as regular chainmail, but has half its regular hardness and the fragile property.

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment... I'd suggest that since it takes a lot more work to make, that Butted Mail would be the "standard" and only the best smiths would know how to make Riveted Mail, or it could be some new invention altogether... Butted Mail is effective, just not as effective... (and with that line of logic I start thinking about making the template a solid +1 to AC, +1 Hardness and +5 HP instead of the bonus vs critical AC once again... some more...)

Maybe since Riveted Mail is more effective against piercing attacks, then it should have a bonus strictly vs Piercing attacks...