What do you when you know you are right but you can't argue that you are right?

[Jon_Dahl]

I just wanted to show this scenario to you guys and get your general opinions of it. I have no specific question, but if you wish, you can answer the question in the thread title. The question is vague, but you can connect it with the case described below.

The PCs were hunting down a lunatic serial killer. The serial killer had a problem with a copycat, who was a lot more powerful than he was, so she had hired an intelligent sorceress (who loved danger) and he also allied himself to the PCs. He was able to do all this because he was using a Hat of Disguise, although the sorceress knew who he was (and she loved it).

During the battle against the copycat killer, who looked exactly like the actual serial killer, the actual serial killed had bumped into the one of the PCs and the PC had seen through his illusion and recognized him as the killer. After the copycat had been killed, the PC confronted the serial killer and told him that he was the serial killer. The sorceress came in to defend the serial killer and said that he wasn't the serial killer, because they had just killed the serial killer, and obviously the PC was under some kind of a spell since the serial killer had been a spellcaster. She said that she was the expert, because she was the only arcane caster in the group. The PC cast True Seeing and saw that the serial killer was the serial killer, which he had already seen. The PC grabbed the Hat of Disguise and now everyone could see that the serial killer was the serial killer. The sorceress sighed and said that first the PC had insisted that his friend was someone else, then he cast a spell, touched his friend and made him appear the person he wanted him to appear. Why? What was the point? The PC explained that he had cast True Seeing to see what he looked like and taken off his magic hat. The sorceress asked him that why he had used such magic since he had already been convinced that his friend is someone else and why he hadn't just taken off the magic hat in the first place? And how could they know that the spell had been True Seeing since the only thing that had happened was the change of his friend's appearance? The sorceress insisted that the PC's argument made no sense and he was obviously under some kind of spell of the dead serial killer (i.e. the copycat). The PC could not formulate any counterargument.

[Khedrac]

Because this is in a 3.5/PF forum, the first question has to be "how many other members of the party have ranks in Spellcraft?"
Anyone with more than one or two ranks in spellcraft should have a decent chance of identifying what spells have been cast, notably the true seeing.

Next up, are the Sense Motive checks for the rest of the party (which should be rolled by the DM secretly). Now the sorceress may have a good bluff (it is a class skill though I have yet to see a sorceror with ranks) and very few party members are likely to be any good at Sense Motive (except possibly the divine caster who I am assuming cast the true seeing so does not count) so, to be honest, this is likely to come out as "you think the sorceress believes she is telling the truth".

Then, there is the PC who cast true seeing; what other spells are they known to cast? Particularly if they are a cleric there's a good chance they can appeal to their friends pointing out that they have never been known to cast "illusions like that" (unless they have), and "surely the word of a friend is worth more than a hired mercenary, no matter how sincere". (Of course, if the party has a lot of back-stabbing then this approach doesn't work.)

Beyond this, the next option is probably dispel magic, as in tell the sorceress to dispel the spell they think has been cast on their ally, and, if she can't, then get a different party member to do the dispelling. This has the advantage that it should also take down the killer's buffs before any combat starts.

[Pleh]

Yes, more details would probably help. Party level and class/race composition would tell us more about what skills to expect.

Be careful with the "dispel" recommendation. Could be a trap, since you just invited her to throw down her most powerful illusion to again disguise the killer, claiming to dispel your illusion if the party can't tell the difference.

I would check under knowledge local/religion to see if there might be any church with high level clerics of justice who could help. Zone of truth. Detect Evil. If her claims to his innocence are valid, they should have nothing to hide.

I would be tempted also to point out the absurdity of the claim. What motive could I possibly have to frame this person? What could I possibly gain?

I can literally hand anyone who questions the hat of disguise and let them see what it does. Pass it around until I run out of spell slots. I can't cast an illusion every time someone wears it, so I can prove our "friend" has been disguising himself. That at least puts him under suspicion.

[Sinewmire]

I would hope the answer is "Those are good points sorceress lady, but this is our friend and we trust him. We're going to put this fella in chains, and if he has been magically disguised to look like the killer, the magistrate can sort it out."

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm guessing the sorceress is making all her Bluff checks? This is why you invest in Sense Motive, kids!

But yeah, did your fellow party members not notice that you spread an expensive ointment over your eyes? That stuff isn't cheap (250 gp per casting of True Seeing)! Unfortunately, the spell doesn't appear to make your eyes glow the way Arcane Sight does, but the material component should still give it away. Was it the first time you've ever cast True Seeing in front of your party?

Also this:

I can literally hand anyone who questions the hat of disguise and let them see what it does. Pass it around until I run out of spell slots. I can't cast an illusion every time someone wears it, so I can prove our "friend" has been disguising himself. That at least puts him under suspicion.

You have the hat. You can prove that what you're saying is true.

If none of that works and it comes down to your word against theirs, why isn't the party taking your side automatically? You are a trusted ally who has presumably been with them through many life or death situations.

[Telonius]

Usually when the debate gets to that point, it tends to be scored using the traditional Half-Orc Barbarian method. (When your opponent can no longer speak, you've won the debate).

[Clistenes]

Well, there is no way you would let them go, is it? The serial killer and sorceress should be asked to allow themselves to be restrained and taken to the nearest temple of Tyr/Heironeous/San Cuthbert/Moradin/Paladine/Themis/Shamash/whoever is the deity of Justice in the setting to check who is telling the truth... a very reasonable demand they can't logically refuse, so they will have to fight, and your group will then be able to do what murderhobis do best...

[ngilop]

Yeah, im going along the same lines as Telonius. Enough fireballs/lightning bolts tends to be all the supporting evidence one needs.


I am confused on why the female sorceress keeps calling the serial killer your character's friend though, but again.. enough fireballs should clear that up as well.

[Mato]

Q: What do you when you know you are right but you can't argue that you are right?
(Multiple memebers of GitP) A: Use violence.
I think the OP was asking what to do in game, not the forum. :smallamused:

Since the PC can use true seeing they should be level 9~11. Have the cleric cast commune and ask their deity who is innocent, or use guidance of the avatar and divine insight to buff his sense motive check by +34, or use protection against evil to prove the PC isn't under the effects of mind control, or use ocular spell with zone of truth to identify anyone that made their save against it, or use speak with the dead to ask the corpse the date of it's first ki. If you don't have magic even a fighter can solve the problem by asking them to strip and chill under supervision to wait out any spells, or you know he can play pass the hat so everyone can turn anyone someone else while wearing it to prove removing the hat break the disguise.

If the player wants to they can just point out that any serial killer capable of putting the PC under his mental control would also be capable of tricking other people into killing others while giving the only arcane caster in the party a couple of extra looks. Otherwise the character can also try making a diplomacy check.

[Crake]

I would hope the answer is "Those are good points sorceress lady, but this is our friend and we trust him. We're going to put this fella in chains, and if he has been magically disguised to look like the killer, the magistrate can sort it out."

As great as that is, it's either super meta (you don't know your friend ISNT affected by some mind altering spell), or playing right into the DM's hand (your friend IS affected by a mind altering spell, and has given false information to the player to make him think what he's seeing is in fact real).


Next up, are the Sense Motive checks for the rest of the party (which should be rolled by the DM secretly). Now the sorceress may have a good bluff (it is a class skill though I have yet to see a sorceror with ranks) and very few party members are likely to be any good at Sense Motive (except possibly the divine caster who I am assuming cast the true seeing so does not count) so, to be honest, this is likely to come out as "you think the sorceress believes she is telling the truth".

I don't know what sorcerers you've been hanging out with, but practically every sorcerer I've ever seen played has had max ranks in bluff.

[Khedrac]

I don't know what sorcerers you've been hanging out with, but practically every sorcerer I've ever seen played has had max ranks in bluff.We play 28pt buy, so it would be the sorcerors with maxed Concentration and Spellcraft and probably a Knowledge or two if human.

It would be interesting to play with a sorceror who used bluff at all!
(I will admit that my beguiler has maxed bluff, but very few ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledges.)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Did none of the PCs know or prepare Detect Magic? Zone of Truth? Detect Evil, because there's no way someone knowingly covering for a serial killer isn't evil?
There are a lot of options, most of them low level enough that in most parties several characters have access to at least one.
Good- and neutral-aligned clerics can also spontaneously cast Inquisition (since it's a sanctified spell).

If you have nothing prepared/available i'd go for "well, lets just detain serial-killer guy now, just to be safe. We can sort it out once we have the proper spells prepared. If he's innocent there's no problem, right?".

[Quertus]

So, the question is, what dies the PC have for Charisma? Wisdom? Bluff? Diplomacy?

It may be perfectly in character for them to have their truth stifled by a well-argued lie. Happens IRL all the time.