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View Full Version : Help me find the rigth classes and editions for these new players



S@tanicoaldo
2018-01-30, 09:46 AM
So, a while ago my group has disbanded for a time and I was planning to learn some new non-D&D rpg systems, but some members of the group decided to re-group since they can't get enough of me :D

They brought two new players (one of the players girlfriend and the fiancé of another one) they are all nice but huge noobs, they are familiar with rpg and D&D settings but never played an actual game.

My problem is that the idea they have for characters are:

1-A pacifist, she doesn't want to fight at all only support, I told her that D&D is a very combat oriented game but still she's looking for a full support class, is there a class like that in any editions?

2- The second one is even more complicated, he wants to focus on agility and acrobatic combat, i told him about the rogue class and he didn't like it, he wants to use Uncanny Dodge and Evasion but he wants to have as much strength and health as a warrior, he's not a big fan of sneak around, open locks and steal things, he really liked the Shadow dancer prestige class, but the meta and min max players of my gorup told him it's a bad class but he really liked the fluff and the skills, so is there any other class that allows for combat and evasion focus while not being a Fragile Speedster? Is there any official thing? My players are not fans of homebrew. They mostly play core classes -_- I'm thinking about Swordsage.

It can come from any D&D edition and/or supplement; we just want to nail these archetypes so everyone can have fun while the main group is out.

Lapak
2018-01-30, 10:49 AM
Are you wedded to D&D in some format? 3.x gives a lot of character-build flexibility (I was going to suggest Swordsage before you mentioned it) but it is combat-focused and requires a certain degree of system mastery to be effective.

For your specific requests, I’d almost say you’d be better off running Dungeon World; even just out of the SRD it’s easy to make an effective DEX fighter, bards can be built as highly effective pacifist support, and most importantly the system is really easy to learn for newbies.

Anonymouswizard
2018-01-30, 12:00 PM
Pacifist means 4e is out.

Almost every other edition can deal with a entirely supportive character, but they'll never use their full spell list (because yes, they'll have to be a caster). The simplest class for this case is the Cleric, but pacifist wizards/sorcerers/druids are still possible.

Number 2 is looking for a Rogue/Fighter. Rogue high enough to get the Rogue abilities they want, then Fighter for the rest of the way. It works especially well if you use my favourite houserule for any edition, no class skills! This way they won't feel like they're being forced into stealth and picking locks and can safely spend all their skill points on Knowledge (Aristocratic Houses of the Lost Empire) and Craft (Underwater Basketweaving).

I'd say 3e or 5e. In 5e I'd make the pacifist a Life Cleric and point them towards healing and buffing spells, as well as disablers.

Honest Tiefling
2018-01-30, 12:15 PM
I'd say 3e or 5e. In 5e I'd make the pacifist a Life Cleric and point them towards healing and buffing spells, as well as disablers.

Yeah, going to mirror this. 4e has its fans, but it is very combat heavy. Earlier editions lack a few things I think make running the game easier, and have some very complex rules.

I'd lean more to 5e with noobs, as I feel like it's harder to mess up a character. The latter could be a Ranger, a Monk, or even a very determined Barbarian, the former a Bard or Cleric.

Of course, if you are familiar with 3e, I'd go with that because everyone learning a new system would be quite difficult. Since you mentioned the Shadowdancer, I just assume you're a bit more familiar with that particular system. If you go with 3e, get that Swordsage, pronto. The shadow-type stuff is pretty good for the class and they have enough skills to get them through non-combat scenarios. The Healer would spring to mind for the later, but it has its detractors. I also believe it comes with a companion, which could be good or horrible. I think sending your unicorn buddy to attack might not be what the player wants.

comk59
2018-01-30, 01:03 PM
Yeah, going to mirror this. 4e has its fans, but it is very combat heavy. Earlier editions lack a few things I think make running the game easier, and have some very complex rules.

I'd lean more to 5e with noobs, as I feel like it's harder to mess up a character. The latter could be a Ranger, a Monk, or even a very determined Barbarian, the former a Bard or Cleric.


I'll second 5e Barbarian, just refluff the rage as a battle focus thing. He can focus on Con and Dex and use finesse weapons, and have a decent AC without armor. Ranger works too though.

Anonymouswizard
2018-01-30, 01:12 PM
Yeah, going to mirror this. 4e has its fans, but it is very combat heavy. Earlier editions lack a few things I think make running the game easier, and have some very complex rules.

Yeah, I'd also say that 2e and earlier editions don't mechanically represent the second character beyond 'Fighter with high Dexterity' (unless we're getting into kits, which I'm not a massive fan of*). Which is fine, but I get the idea that player 2 wants abilities that suggest speed.

* Despite being a fan of specialty priests. There are also a few kits I like, but in general I just find them unbalanced.


I'd lean more to 5e with noobs, as I feel like it's harder to mess up a character. The latter could be a Ranger, a Monk, or even a very determined Barbarian, the former a Bard or Cleric.

Yeah, I'd also lean towards 5e because it makes system mastery less important (not unimportant, but high and low op are close enough together that you need it to identify performance difference).

Monk is actually a good idea, the Shadow Monk can get a very Shadowdancer feel, even if it lacks the teleportation. Barbarian is also a very good recommendation, although I'll note that some new players are heavily against refluffing, so having a fallback suggestion is a good idea.


Of course, if you are familiar with 3e, I'd go with that because everyone learning a new system would be quite difficult. Since you mentioned the Shadowdancer, I just assume you're a bit more familiar with that particular system. If you go with 3e, get that Swordsage, pronto. The shadow-type stuff is pretty good for the class and they have enough skills to get them through non-combat scenarios. The Healer would spring to mind for the later, but it has its detractors. I also believe it comes with a companion, which could be good or horrible. I think sending your unicorn buddy to attack might not be what the player wants.

This is good advice as well.

redwizard007
2018-01-30, 01:40 PM
For your pacifist, you will need to identify exactly how far the player is willing to take things. Is she ok with non-lethal damage, trip/sunder attacks, grappling? What about violence against constructs or the undead? How about mind control or minionmancy? Is she ok with others doing violence in her presence, ordering the violence done by controlled minions, or is she a straight up Quaker?

There are lots of options, but you need to nail down what she finds acceptable. I believe d&d 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds has 2 different Vows for pacifist characters. Explore those a bit.

Rhedyn
2018-01-30, 02:30 PM
A 3.5 book of exulted deeds pacifist gets some neat stuff.

A Pathfinder vigilante could do the Daredevil stuff. (If non lethal is pacifist then this class could do that too)

3.5 Bards can be devastating supports and can add +20 to to-hit and damage with the right build.

Pathfinder Bards don't eat up their turns singing (free maintain) so they can support but should be doing other stuff too.

Florian
2018-01-30, 03:34 PM
Puh, pacifist and D&D is such a bad combination, as it basically means a class with a lot of at-will abilities is needed to still contribute in a way. "I stand around and do nothing" doesn't make for a satisfying game.

A Pathfinder Witch going for the Stargazer PrC has a lot of debuff and support hexes and mysteries.

A Pathfinder Life Oracle (Pei-Zin Practitioner) is a very able healer class that's also easy tu run and manage.

A Pathfinder Swashbuckler fits the bill for the "agile warrior" quite well.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-01-30, 03:58 PM
If you want to stick to D&D-type games, I'll usually suggest 5th for new players, especially for an experienced GM/inexperienced group mix.

For the first...there are a couple classes that can do the trick. Bards, Clerics, Druids, even Sorcerers can be pretty effective at party-support. I would cautiously suggest a Divine Soul Sorcerer, I think-- they get to pick Cleric spells as well as Sorcerer ones, but the list is small enough to be easy to grasp and Twin Spell can let you heal and buff quite effectively.

For the second guy, 5e makes it easy to be Dex-heavy. You could do a Rogue with the Tough feat and you'd be hecka hardy, especially with 5e's Uncanny Dodge being "take half damage from one attack every round." Of course, if they're attached to the shadowdancer stuff, that very much says Shadow Monk. Which is an awesome subclass. Through on Tough and you'll effectively have a d12 HD, spend some ki on bonus-action Dodges, and you'll be tanking pretty effectively even as a Monk. (Monks are rock-solid in 5e).


Yeah, I'd also lean towards 5e because it makes system mastery less important (not unimportant, but high and low op are close enough together that you need it to identify performance difference).

Monk is actually a good idea, the Shadow Monk can get a very Shadowdancer feel, even if it lacks the teleportation. Barbarian is also a very good recommendation, although I'll note that some new players are heavily against refluffing, so having a fallback suggestion is a good idea.
Shadow Monk actually gets at-will shadow jumping at 6th.

tensai_oni
2018-01-30, 04:50 PM
I second 5e.

For the second player the case is simple - dex focused martial classes are both workable and good, and a dex-heavy fighter with a bow (and finessable weapons if he wants to melee) is considered a very strong build. He definitely has options and little opportunity to screw himself over.


Puh, pacifist and D&D is such a bad combination, as it basically means a class with a lot of at-will abilities is needed to still contribute in a way. "I stand around and do nothing" doesn't make for a satisfying game.


There are classes that have at-will support cantrips, such as the Cleric. You don't "stand around and do nothing". You cast Resistance/Guidance/whatever.

There's also the Redemption Paladin, but that variant is widely considered underpowered and it's less pacifist and more "beat people up non-lethally to teach them a lesson". Until the capstone ability anyway. Speaking of which though, is the player okay with being this kind of non-lethal not quite pacifist? One who fights, just doesn't kill her opponents?

If so, you should let her know that in 5e, it's up to the attacker to decide what happens to the downed enemy they defeat, and there is no -4 attack bullcrap when trying to apply nonlethal damage either. Or alternatively play a construct/undead heavy campaign.

S@tanicoaldo
2018-01-30, 05:59 PM
We decicded that:

If we go Pathfinder, she's going to go with Human Oracle and he's going for a Fetchling Stygian Slayer/Swashbuckler.

If go D&D She's going for Bard and he's going for Barbarian/Shadowdancer sicne he really wants to go go with Shadowdancer.

Is Barbarian/Shadowdancer viable?

Honest Tiefling
2018-01-30, 07:06 PM
Is Barbarian/Shadowdancer viable?

Are...Are you open to some tweaking of the class? I think getting rid of the Perform (dance) ranks and reconsidering the feat requirements might do the PRC some good. And what optimization level are you going to have to deal with for the rest of the group?

Thrudd
2018-01-30, 07:11 PM
Its nice that you want to cater to them, but I'd suggest picking a game/edition first. Learn how to run it if you don't already know. Prepare a campaign. Then tell them the game you're going to use and let them look through their options and pick what they want. Make sure they choose characters that will be good for the campaign you've designed, give them advice towards that end.

Or, go ahead and learn that non D&D game. Pick one that does not use classes or archetypes, like GURPS or D6 or Fate. Then they can pretty easily make their characters exactly as they want.

S@tanicoaldo
2018-01-31, 03:00 PM
We decided to play a political court intrigue game of Mage: The Sorcerers Crusade, but thanks for the help guys.