Ceremony: It promotes serial marrying

[LeonBH]

The marriage ability of the Ceremony spell gives a +2 AC to the wedded creatures for 7 days as long as they are within 30ft of each other, no concentration required. They can only benefit from it again if one is widowed.

So, let's say a Lore Bard takes it. As a Charisma caster, as well as having Expertise, he or she will have a high Persuasion or Deception bonus. And having Magical Secrets, he or she can learn Ceremony. Thus, they could go to a tavern, flirt with a local and convince them to join the party, marry them, keep them within 30ft at all times, and kill them after 7 days. Then they can restart the cycle.

Thus, we see a character who marries often and leaves behind a trail of bodies belonging to their spouses. And sure, he or she has a reputation; and sure, the NPC they're pursuing might know better than to marry someone they just met and join their travels; but the PC is so magnetic, and something about their eyes is just so persuasive, that the NPCs get convinced to give it a try. They think, what's the worst that could happen?

The idea can be done faster by a Divine Soul or a Paladin, though they have no Expertise. The Divine Soul has Enhance Ability to compensate, though. It can also be copied by anyone with Magic Initiate, but preferably a Rogue Swashbuckler for the Expertise and Charisma as secondary stat.

[nickl_2000]

And if you try it at my table, my LG character will put you in prison. My CG character will put you in the grave. Yes, it's something you can abuse, but in character it's just plain silly.

[tieren]

What you really need to exploit is the widowing part.

Kill one or another off each week and then revivify them and remarry them all over again.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I'd say it's a great idea for a villain, but if you're committing to being a serial killer for something as small as a +2 to AC... you might want to set your sights a bit higher.

[Unoriginal]

You could also have dropped any atom of subtlety and just said "Ceremony: it promotes serial killing".

What is the purpose of this thread, honestly? This is a well-known "exploit" of the spell.

[Caelic]

Grond the half-orc barbarian marched up to Father Alembic, carrying a squirming, panic-stricken kobold in his hand. Alembic cringed inwardly.

"What is it this time, Grond?"

The barbarian shook his captive vigorously. "GROND MARRY KOBOLD!"

The kobold looked even more panic-stricken, but didn't protest. Alembic sighed.

"Grond, didn't you just marry a goblin last week?"

Grond nodded. "Goblin broken now! Grond marry kobold!"

Alembic closed his eyes. "...and the kobold, I take it, has agreed to this?"

"Yes! Well, after Grond tell him Grond eat him if he NOT say yes!"

Alembic opened his eyes. "Grond, you KNOW the Morninglord is not going to approve of you marrying random creatures and then killing them."

Grond looked affronted. "Grond not kill spouse! Not monster!"

"In the last month and a half, you've been married to two goblins, one xvart, and a zombie. I told you the Morninglord wouldn't even RECOGNIZE the marriage to the zombie, but you did it anyway. So how, exactly, did four of your spouses manage to die in six weeks?"

Grond shrugged. "Grond need spouse close, to draw inspiration and courage! So Grond strap to back before go into battle!"

The kobold whimpered. Alembic started to wonder if a Cure spell would help his rapidly growing migraine...

[the_brazenburn]

This brings a whole new meaning to the term "shotgun wedding".

Broadsword wedding, perhaps?

[the_brazenburn]

A couple other questions, also.

Does the spell recognize same-sex marriage? What about interspecies breeding?

If you are unfaithful to your spouse, do the effects cancel?

Do you regain this buff at each 5-year anniversary?

These are very important questions.

[LeonBH]

What you really need to exploit is the widowing part.

Kill one or another off each week and then revivify them and remarry them all over again.

I thought of this, but Revivify costs 300gp, so it's a more expensive path to take. Definitely gives a different spin to "til death do us part"


This brings a whole new meaning to the term "shotgun wedding".

Broadsword wedding, perhaps?

It makes the concept of "black widow" more legitimate, at least.

[Millstone85]

Does the spell recognize same-sex marriage? What about interspecies breeding?Willing adult humanoids within 10 feet of the caster. So, by RAW:
* Same-sex marriage: Yes.
* Interspecies: Yes, among humanoids.
* Polygamy: Yes, up to 24 individuals plus the caster.


If you are unfaithful to your spouse, do the effects cancel?

Do you regain this buff at each 5-year anniversary?No such clauses.

[Sirithhyando]

Afb but could you marry an undead? (that you raised so it follow your command)

Since it's already dead, you could just mary it again every 7 days... it's never really dead nor is it alive.

If it work, then marry a dead squirel... put it in a cage in your bag so it's always close to you.

edit : Nvm about the squirrel thing


Willing adult humanoids within 10 feet of the caster. So, by RAW:
* Same-sex marriage: Yes.
* Interspecies: Yes, among humanoids.
* Polygamy: Yes, up to 24 individuals plus the caster.

Then just bring a halfling undead in your backpack, still possible to carry it so it's always within 30'.

[d20familiar]

I thought of this, but Revivify costs 300gp, so it's a more expensive path to take. Definitely gives a different spin to "til death do us part"
What if said spouse is your party's zealot barbarian?

[LeonBH]

Afb but could you marry an undead? (that you raised so it follow your command)

Since it's already dead, you could just mary it again every 7 days... it's never really dead nor is it alive.

If it work, then marry a dead squirel... put it in a cage in your bag so it's always close to you.

Undead are not classified as humanoid, and the spell requires humanoids, so not really.


What if said spouse is your party's zealot barbarian?

Now we're talking.

[the_brazenburn]

Now, what qualifies as an adult? In our modern day and age, we consider it to be 18, or 100 for elves, but people were married far younger back in the dark ages. Are 14 year olds (what I believe to be the average marrying age for girls back then) eligible for the Ceremony spell?

[BobZan]

Cleric + Zealot Barbarian.

Wedding Vows Renewal every week, permanent +2 AC.

[Ganymede]

If you are worried that your hypothetical NPC murder-bard will abuse Ceremony, don't put him/her in your campaign.

[Alderic78]

Now, what qualifies as an adult? In our modern day and age, we consider it to be 18, or 100 for elves, but people were married far younger back in the dark ages. Are 14 year olds (what I believe to be the average marrying age for girls back then) eligible for the Ceremony spell?

There is a "coming of age" cerimony as well, not sure if that helps.

[War_lord]

Now, what qualifies as an adult? In our modern day and age, we consider it to be 18, or 100 for elves, but people were married far younger back in the dark ages. Are 14 year olds (what I believe to be the average marrying age for girls back then) eligible for the Ceremony spell?

Few things.

1. There's no such thing as the "Dark Ages".

2. It's a myth that women all got married as children in the medieval period, late teens to early twenties was pretty consistently the norm forEeurope at least. That misconception comes from people misunderstanding the rare, usually politically motivated teen marriage as being the norm. Usually closely related to the idea that everyone was an old man at 35 in those times, due to misunderstanding how life expectancy works.

3. PHB specifically says that Humans reach adulthood in their late teens.

[Mikal]

Cleric + Zealot Barbarian.

Wedding Vows Renewal every week, permanent +2 AC.

http://doug-johnson.squarespace.com/storage/brilliant.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=122911083 4258

And now I have an idea to run by someone for my next game...

[Tiadoppler]

I'd houserule Ceremony to require compatibility with the morality of the deity to whom the caster is dedicated to.

A LG god would not empower the Ceremony of somebody who's tricked a victim into a week-long "marriage", but a CE god would likely think it's hilarious. Similarly, intent to Atone or a coming of age ceremony might have a similar "error-checking" phase.

If the caster follows a non-theistic belief system, it'll work as long as the caster believes that the people in question are behaving appropriately, so it'd only require fooling the caster.



Edit:
Because this houserule adapts to the morality of the deity, rather than some absolute value of "adulthood" "marriage" or "attonement", you can have a bit more cultural variety. Some deities/religions might have a different definition of adulthood, or marriage, and their Ceremony rituals would change to accommodate that.


Edit 2:
And now I'm imagining that this is part of the weekly routine for any high priestess of Lolth, and especially driders. It's so flavorful, and offers a fun way to weaken a big boss character: If a married PC gets captured, gets chosen to serve as the weekly sacrifice, and the ceremony fails due to the prior marriage, the BBEG would be at a 2 AC disadvantage with a PC within 30'.

[HMS Invincible]

I'm trying to cast this spell as a unnamed basic abjuration spell, but my group metagamed despite not being spell casters, they know what it is. Now in the interest of roleplaying, they refused to get married.

[Tiadoppler]

I'm trying to cast this spell as a unnamed basic abjuration spell, but my group metagamed despite not being spell casters, they know what it is. Now in the interest of roleplaying, they refused to get married.

It wouldn't be unusual for a non-spellcaster to know what a wedding ceremony looks like.

[Millstone85]

It wouldn't be unusual for a non-spellcaster to know what a wedding ceremony looks like.https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6c/14/f0/6c14f05b3c555dfff64821f7e5ae5c93--disney-frozen-i-love.jpg

[Kane0]

Even better if you get a tomelock or a martial with the ritual caster feat to do it for you.

Totes legit!

[fbelanger]

A thread about abusing ceremony spell!
Only at giant tip!

[Strifer]

My group had this exact same idea (luckily the paladin won't allow it). Have the bard pick up a nice unsuspecting victim, have a great marriage ceremony, finally a life without poverty! Only to get your arms and legs cut of and be carried around like a backpack for a week..... 2 AC is pretty strong however!

[Chaosvii7]

You know, I'm gonna have to try that on my College of Whispers Bard in my Kingmaker game. He isn't evil, but if I marry someone that is I don't see any harm that could come of it.

[MaxWilson]

The marriage ability of the Ceremony spell gives a +2 AC to the wedded creatures for 7 days as long as they are within 30ft of each other, no concentration required. They can only benefit from it again if one is widowed.

It's particularly interesting that the spell, IIRC, doesn't require your "spouse" to be ALIVE in order for you to keep your AC bonus. They just have to be within 30'.

It says so much about 5E that the primary benefit of marriage, according to the game designers, is a temporary boost to AC. :-P

[ad_hoc]

I'm very happy about having the Ceremony spell in the game.

It gives players an easy and straightforward way to abuse the game (it is also around at 1st level!). As such it is easy and straightforward to see what sorts of players we have at the table. Usually it might take a session or two for me to know to walk away, but with Ceremony in the game I can find out straight away.

[Toadkiller]

As a DM I would reverse the effect at the first sign of treachery. It’s now a -2 AC. Likely to not be an issue for long, but if repeated a -4 AC and so on.

Cause it is stupid and crass.

There are many such cheats in any game as complex as a tabletop RPG. Abusing them breaks the social contract (as laid out in session zero). There would be an explicit OOC warning not to “provoke the gods” by abusing the spell. If they did it anyway the “gods” would go ahead and be provoked.

[Honest Tiefling]

Personally, I don't see this as a flaw as much as a roleplaying opportunity. It's a great way to introduce a Black Widow type of character, particularly if the party bard has a particular type and doesn't think about the NPCs doing the same thing...

I love the idea of the god backing the spell/ceremony having a say in matters...I might rule that if one begins to abuse it, they'll start to make their opinions known, particularly if the pantheon has a god of marriage. Perhaps the local god of love could object to such needless laws regarding love, thus their followers would begin to bicker if well-known figures started to do it.

However, I could see a society starting a tradition of a sacrificial marriage. Get someone willing to sacrifice themselves to the god to give your top general/magic user an edge in an important battle. They might agree to it if it's considered a high honor and they get to party up until the divorce proceedings. I mean, there are several goddesses of love AND war in real life pantheons...

[sambojin]

It has enough downsides, that sure, you can try.

Watch a small one-off "mistake" spiral into a clan war with you and your party being hunted all across the lands for being "unworthy" to protect your "bride/groom/whatever".

Marriage is taken pretty seriously, even by those not directly involved. Messing it up has consequences, way outside the the scope of the married couple, even in amongst society at large. One of the standard marriage oaths is to care for and protect your spouse. If you don't, it has a stigma attached to it, even if it wasn't your fault that they died early.

In all cultures (and in DnD, to all peoples/races, no doubt). It ain't worth it for +2AC. Just multiclass into mystic if you want that.

[Tiadoppler]

Since the start of this thread, I've rewritten a chunk of an ongoing campaign to include a Drider High Priestess of Lolth who uses this (bug/feature/)effect of Ceremony for a 'permanent' defensive bonus.

In every tunnel and chamber, living slaves are kept restrained and under guard. In the corner of the priestess' lair is a charmed/dominated "spouse" who can be freed by the heroes. Overhead, on a vast spiderweb, hang the dessicated remains of hundreds of past "husbands" and "wives".

It's just so... delightfully rules-legal fluff 'friendly'.

[Chugger]

And if you try it at my table, my LG character will put you in prison. My CG character will put you in the grave. Yes, it's something you can abuse, but in character it's just plain silly.

I stopped reading replies here - with this post . By the way, OP (Leon), nice job - this is a cool exploit - I'm glad you shared it with us - it made me laugh. Thanks!

Nick, calm the heck down, please. Obviously reasonable people aren't going to do this. And obviously messed up chaotic tables dominated by cheese and sploits will revel in this. (edit, and to others my "reasonable" is stagnant and boring - or messed up to them - I'm being playful here - not trying to judge)

Let them have their fun. And you go off to your version of reality and have fun there, too.

There's more than one way to skin a displacer beast!

[Honest Tiefling]

It's just so... delightfully rules-legal.

Except that the targets would need to be willing...And the Charm condition only makes the target friendly. I think not getting molested by a spider demon counts as 'self-preservation' to trigger the clause of dominate person, but your mileage might vary.

Either way, Driders aren't humanoid in any sense of the word, so by the wording of the spell it wouldn't work.

[Samayu]

+2 AC is excellent. Having to stay withing 30 feet of someone is not as advantageous, tactically speaking. The right kind of characters could make it work. So to speak.

Also, I see group bathroom breaks happening.

GM tip: use fear.

[Kane0]

Protip: Grab the Mounted Combatant feat for extra cheese by using your spouse... as a... mount...

Oh dear.

[Chugger]

Protip: Grab the Mounted Combatant feat for extra cheese by using your spouse... as a... mount...

Oh dear.

Limberger!!! Heheh! :smallbiggrin:

[Tiadoppler]

Except that the targets would need to be willing...And the Charm condition only makes the target friendly. I think not getting molested by a spider demon counts as 'self-preservation' to trigger the clause of dominate person, but your mileage might vary.

Either way, Driders aren't humanoid in any sense of the word, so by the wording of the spell it wouldn't work.

Yeesh, my bad.

I'm going to say that Lolth specifically has an exception for "tortured and coerced sacrifices who just want the pain to end" being "willing".

Uggh, I guess non-humanoid sapients are out of luck. It could be a Drow high priestess, I guess, or a custom spell.

[Knaight]

Willing adult humanoids within 10 feet of the caster. So, by RAW:
* Polygamy: Yes, up to 24 individuals plus the caster.

That 24 figure assumes one per five foot square. Assuming you aren't casting this in combat a humanoid isn't assumed to use a whole five foot square.

[LeonBH]

That 24 figure assumes one per five foot square. Assuming you aren't casting this in combat a humanoid isn't assumed to use a whole five foot square.

And it assumes everyone is married to the same person. You could create a longer chain by marrying the newest spouse instead.

[HMS Invincible]

That 24 figure assumes one per five foot square. Assuming you aren't casting this in combat a humanoid isn't assumed to use a whole five foot square.

You shouldn't marry too many people since it would make it difficult to reapply the buff.

In a real party, I'm still figuring out when to use this. I'm thinking early on, when the chance of death is high and AC is the primary defense. Just need the rogue to agree. (rest of the party has crap ac, and isn't worth buffing.)

[Asmotherion]

Bonus if you are devoted to a Chaotic Evil deity of the Trickery Domain. I'd allow it in an Evil-Themed Party, because it's very thematic and RP-bound.

I'd allow a heart-breaker "marry-divorce" loophole for a Bard who wishes to play that concept, since it's very nice thematically.

[GreyBlack]

The marriage ability of the Ceremony spell gives a +2 AC to the wedded creatures for 7 days as long as they are within 30ft of each other, no concentration required. They can only benefit from it again if one is widowed.

So, let's say a Lore Bard takes it. As a Charisma caster, as well as having Expertise, he or she will have a high Persuasion or Deception bonus. And having Magical Secrets, he or she can learn Ceremony. Thus, they could go to a tavern, flirt with a local and convince them to join the party, marry them, keep them within 30ft at all times, and kill them after 7 days. Then they can restart the cycle.

Thus, we see a character who marries often and leaves behind a trail of bodies belonging to their spouses. And sure, he or she has a reputation; and sure, the NPC they're pursuing might know better than to marry someone they just met and join their travels; but the PC is so magnetic, and something about their eyes is just so persuasive, that the NPCs get convinced to give it a try. They think, what's the worst that could happen?

The idea can be done faster by a Divine Soul or a Paladin, though they have no Expertise. The Divine Soul has Enhance Ability to compensate, though. It can also be copied by anyone with Magic Initiate, but preferably a Rogue Swashbuckler for the Expertise and Charisma as secondary stat.

Hmm. So first of all, this is definitely Evil, under D&D definition. That said.... Yeah. I could absolutely see some sort of king in the vein of Arabian Nights who would perform the ceremony and then kill the significant other in order to maintain their AC bonus.

[Malifice]

Hmm. So first of all, this is definitely Evil, under D&D definition.

Its clearly LG.

He's lawful because he's abiding by the laws of the land in engaging in frequent lawful marriage. He's good because he only marries evil people, and thus killing them is good.

Plus its all for the greater good.

Amidoingitright?

[Kane0]

Its clearly LG.

He's lawful because he's abiding by the laws of the land in engaging in frequent lawful marriage. He's good because he only marries evil people, and thus killing them is good.

Plus its all for the greater good.

Amidoingitright?

Legend :smallamused:

[StoicLeaf]

I don't understand these sort of players.
It's like someone offering you money for punching yourself in the ****.

[Samayu]

Ceremony
Casting time: 1 hour
Wedding: You touch adult humanoids willing to bonded together in marriage...

How many willing adults can a cleric touch in one hour? :-D

[Malifice]

How many willing adults can a cleric touch in one hour? :-D

Its when the Cleric starts touching unwilling humanoids that you have the real problem...

[Knaight]

Its clearly LG.

He's lawful because he's abiding by the laws of the land in engaging in frequent lawful marriage. He's good because he only marries evil people, and thus killing them is good.

Plus its all for the greater good.

Amidoingitright?

This seems off. The correct move is to argue that it's not that he only marries evil people, it's that the lives of inferior life forms don't matter and some chump peasant is obviously inferior to a king because he's so much smarter than them. Richer can be substituted for smarter in this particular case.

[ATHATH]

Protip: Grab the Mounted Combatant feat for extra cheese by using your spouse... as a... mount...

Oh dear.
Tying into that Zealot Barbarian trick mentioned earlier, wasn't there a character build duo/pair that was really, really good at tanking things (due to the interactions of multiple different "tank" mechanics) that involved a Barbarian (or was it a Cavalier?) riding a shapeshifted Druid? Can't Druids cast Ceremony?

I think we're on to something here.

A guy was cursed to commit suicide "at the beginning of Sunday's sunset, when the sun just begins to touch the horizon". However, his eternal, undying love for [other member of the battle-couple] keeps allowing him to return to life every time the curse takes his life (since, due to the way the curse is worded/the magic of the curse works, it goes off EVERY Sunday), and they go on adventures together or something. I dunno, I'm not a professional writer.

[Malifice]

Carry around a bag of humanoids... then marry and kill them over and over.

How about marrying your own Simulacrum over and over (as it dies)?

Its technically a humanoid (presuming you are, and you've cloned yourself).

[LeonBH]

How about marrying your own Simulacrum over and over (as it dies)?

Its technically a humanoid (presuming you are, and you've cloned yourself).

Puts a whole new meaning to 'marry yourself'

[Malifice]

Puts a whole new meaning to 'marry yourself'

Bonus points if you become an ordained minister of a church that supports this kind of thing (Cyric wouldnt have a problem with it being all about self loving and murder and chaos and trickery) via your 1 level in Cleric (that also opens up the Ceremony spell as a spell for you).

You could then marry your own Simulacrum for a +2 to both your AC for a week. Rinse and repeat.

[Honest Tiefling]

Yeesh, my bad.

I'm going to say that Lolth specifically has an exception for "tortured and coerced sacrifices who just want the pain to end" being "willing".

Uggh, I guess non-humanoid sapients are out of luck. It could be a Drow high priestess, I guess, or a custom spell.

I'd just tweak the spell. Lolth probably isn't super big on monogamy thanks to her doofus of an ex-husband. Borrowing males from other houses is probably a thing in many settings, so there's that. I suggest that the drider just performs a sacrifice of adult humanoids. That's totally Lolth's jam, so I doubt that any player would really object to the ceremony spell being changed like that.


Protip: Grab the Mounted Combatant feat for extra cheese by using your spouse... as a... mount...

Mount would need to be a willing humanoid who can comprehend marriage, which limits choices. I mean, if your gnome uses the party goliath as a mount, that MIGHT work, but I don't think that is quite legal for mounted combat.

[LeonBH]

Mount would need to be a willing humanoid who can comprehend marriage, which limits choices. I mean, if your gnome uses the party goliath as a mount, that MIGHT work, but I don't think that is quite legal for mounted combat.

You could use your party Moon Druid as a mount. It would totally be legal, too.

[Tiadoppler]

I'd just tweak the spell. Lolth probably isn't super big on monogamy thanks to her doofus of an ex-husband. Borrowing males from other houses is probably a thing in many settings, so there's that. I suggest that the drider just performs a sacrifice of adult humanoids. That's totally Lolth's jam, so I doubt that any player would really object to the ceremony spell being changed like that.

I think it says something about my current game that the limitation of Ceremony to Humanoids only (and not sapients in general) would be a severe plot-relevant problem for PCs, recurring NPCs and whole civilizations.

Houserules: The caster must believe that the targets of the ceremony are acting in accordance with the caster's belief system. The targets may be any "willing sapients who are able to understand the effects of the ritual".

[Ventruenox]

Do we have to report that type of marriage to PETA to investigate animal abuse?

[Honest Tiefling]

I think it says something about my current game that the limitation of Ceremony to Humanoids only (and not sapients in general) would be a severe plot-relevant problem for PCs, recurring NPCs and whole civilizations.

I'm getting the feeling from this thread that clause was in there to prevent people trying to power game bestiality.

Through I must ask, why bother with the marriage, as opposed to sacrifice? I mean, Lolth loves her some sacrifices. And a good sacrifice is like a steak, you need to prepare it and season it properly. They need to be completely broken in both a mental and physical way because otherwise you are just being lazy.

[Tiadoppler]

I'm getting the feeling from this thread that clause was in there to prevent people trying to power game bestiality.

I understand, and that's why I'm specifying the requirement of sapience (AKA, a step above sentience, a 'human equivalent' level of intelligence and understanding of the world). In D&D there are plenty of non-humanoid sapients, like centaurs and dragons, who (in my current campaign, at least) have equal rights to humanoids, and should therefore also have access to equal rites.

I now pronounce you doppelganger and silver dragon.



Through I must ask, why bother with the marriage, as opposed to sacrifice? I mean, Lolth loves her some sacrifices. And a good sacrifice is like a steak, you need to prepare it and season it properly. They need to be completely broken in both a mental and physical way because otherwise you are just being lazy.

"Why don't we have both?"

[Mith]

Would it fundementally break things for the Ceremony be a renewal of oaths and have it go permanent with something like the Flitch Trails of "After a year and a Day, I did not regret in any way."

If the party members are willing to take the time to have the ritual done 53 times, I think it would be a good way to reward the effort made.

[Honest Tiefling]

"Why don't we have both?"

Because drow probably aren't cool with the mixing of the races. Even if driders are infertile, it's the principle of the matter! Non-drow are yucky and have cooties.


Would it fundementally break things for the Ceremony be a renewal of oaths and have it go permanent with something like the Flitch Trails of "After a year and a Day, I did not regret in any way."

I feel like it would be best if it was kept as a reward of really good roleplay to be honest. If your character really does the faith thing, I could consider it a reward every time you showed up in civilization. It might even work as a bribe to get people attached to a Plot Hub. But I draw the line at lazily done weddings in the woods. Even druids put in effort and time! Fork over the cash or spend the time, else no vow renewal for you!

Through now that I think about it, what the hell are people doing on their honeymoon to need a +2 to AC? Is DnD full of Klingon marriages where you get attacked after the ceremony and then spend your honeymoon alternating between wrestling bears and sex so rough it destroys small buildings!?

[Tiadoppler]

Because drow probably aren't cool with the mixing of the races. Even if driders are infertile, it's the principle of the matter! Non-drow are yucky and have cooties.

So they'd have one group of drow slaves for immediate sacrifice, and one group of drow slaves for repeated lethal mockery of the sacrament of marriage. Only the caster has to touch the victimspouse.



I feel like it would be best if it was kept as a reward of really good roleplay to be honest. If your character really does the faith thing, I could consider it a reward every time you showed up in civilization. It might even work as a bribe to get people attached to a Plot Hub. But I draw the line at lazily done weddings in the woods. Even druids put in effort and time! Fork over the cash or spend the time, else no vow renewal for you!

A druid wedding in the woods would be awesome. I'm thinking a custom cathedral woven from the branches of tall trees for the occasion, with petals falling in the breeze and sunlight beaming through the green leaves. Singing birds and grass growing in the footsteps of the happy couple. Druid-powered forest weddings would be the way to go!



Through now that I think about it, what the hell are people doing on their honeymoon to need a +2 to AC? Is DnD full of Klingon marriages where you get attacked after the ceremony and then spend your honeymoon alternating between wrestling bears and sex so rough it destroys small buildings!?

Yes. Well, I guess it depends on the culture. Or it's more of a plot device: something always goes wrong on the honeymoon (kidnappings, demonic invasions, murder mysteries, slow room service) so the Deity of Narrative decided to balance things out so the newlyweds have a chance to survive the inevitable honeymoon plot twist.

[Eric Diaz]

Mechanics-wise, yes, it does. Narrative-wise... depends on the deity.

Here is a feat I use on my retroclone.

Divine Authority: You have the power and authority
to perform marriage ceremonies, build churches where
needed, bless water, listen to confessions, grant sanctuary,
excommunicate the guilty, and so on. Under normal
circumstances, these acts will be accepted as valid by both
your church and you deity.

So, I think we could use ceremony like that. You are OFFICIALLY married, in the eyes of society AND YOUR DEITY.

* If your spouse is taken into the abyss, you can instinctively find your way to him/her through a faint silver line (or something).
* If you went trough initiation rites, you're legally an adult.
* If you leave your wife behind, everyone will question your word and you honor.

Coolest thing, of course, is that it would be different for every deity... maybe a more chaotic/sensual deity will give you +1 AC for 24 after performing tantric rites, etc.

... etc.

[LeonBH]

trying to power game bestiality.

Quite honestly one of the more amusing thoughts that has sprung out of this.

[Honest Tiefling]

Yes. Well, I guess it depends on the culture. Or it's more of a plot device: something always goes wrong on the honeymoon (kidnappings, demonic invasions, murder mysteries, slow room service) so the Deity of Narrative decided to balance things out so the newlyweds have a chance to survive the inevitable honeymoon plot twist.

I think the goddess of love could easily do that. Plenty also double as gods of war, which would make them more suitable for adventurers and hopefully cut down on a degree of neckbeardism that tends to arise with them. Also makes a great excuse as to why non-consensual marriage isn't a thing, except for outliers like crazy drider women. Which don't get me wrong, isn't a bad idea (if needing a bit of rules tweaking), provided that your group is sorta okay with darker themes.

I sorta like the idea of the marriage ceremony having more customization. It does create the problem that chaotic gods have no reason to forbid polyamory, but if the group convinces me that they are all married to someone in the group without getting weird with it AND find time to get tantric rites done without ambushes, they've earned it.

[Tiadoppler]

I sorta like the idea of the marriage ceremony having more customization. It does create the problem that chaotic gods have no reason to forbid polyamory, but if the group convinces me that they are all married to someone in the group without getting weird with it AND find time to get tantric rites done without ambushes, they've earned it.

Having a bunch of significantly, mechanically different cultures in a D&D campaign seems like a good thing to me (at least, for my group, where I know how everyone will react, and nobody will take IRL offense at ingame stuff). That's a much more entertaining and original Law vs Chaos debate than the traditional Paladin vs Rogue blah blah blah stealing is good/bad.


Bolded for emphasis. YMMV. Void where prohibited. 0% APR for up to 72 rounds. Terms and conditions may apply.


Edit:

... crazy drider women. Which don't get me wrong, isn't a bad idea (if needing a bit of rules tweaking), provided that your group is sorta okay with darker themes.

I like the Joss Whedon quote:
“Make it dark, make it grim, make it tough, but then, for the love of God, tell a joke.”
I've had multiple players complain of nightmares after certain sessions, and I consider that a good thing. I run a very comedic, heroic adventure. Nineteen sessions out of twenty, it's a straight up slice-of-life adventure comedy, but occasionally, there's a session to remind the players (and their characters) that they're heroes for a reason, that there is cruelty and evil out there, and it's worth fighting against.

[Honest Tiefling]

Having a bunch of significantly, mechanically different cultures in a D&D campaign seems like a good thing to me (at least, for my group, where I know how everyone will react, and nobody will take IRL offense at ingame stuff). That's a much more entertaining and original Law vs Chaos debate than the traditional Paladin vs Rogue blah blah blah stealing is good/bad.

I can easily see how polygny/polyandry stuff would quickly get into a quagmire, but since the rules as presented are 1) exploitable for a Black Widow/Whatever the male equivalent situation is and 2) boring, what additional rules can we brainstorm for various gods? For instance, I can see Silvanus and his crew of Nature Gods requiring a natural area (not a park you POSEUR) to marry in, but I am not sure how to quantify it as enough effort to get the buff. Also, I could see Moon gods allowing remarriage every lunar cycle, even without widowhood. Many tend to the chaos end of the spectrum, so divorcing and remarriage would be very fitting.

[Tiadoppler]

I can easily see how polygny/polyandry stuff would quickly get into a quagmire, but since the rules as presented are 1) exploitable for a Black Widow/Whatever the male equivalent situation is and 2) boring, what additional rules can we brainstorm for various gods? For instance, I can see Silvanus and his crew of Nature Gods requiring a natural area (not a park you POSEUR) to marry in, but I am not sure how to quantify it as enough effort to get the buff. Also, I could see Moon gods allowing remarriage every lunar cycle, even without widowhood. Many tend to the chaos end of the spectrum, so divorcing and remarriage would be very fitting.

Here are some thoughts on various deities' marriage ceremonies. Just throwing them out there, feel free to disagree.
Notes:
If more than two people are in a single marriage, they all must stay within a 30' diameter circle (or a 30' square) for any of them to receive the AC benefit.
Unless otherwise stated, marriage ends at death. If more than two people are in a single marriage, the remaining people will stay married even if one spouse dies.


Amaunator, LN: Standard, boring. Two willing people, until one of them dies, or ends by mutual consent (and a second casting of Ceremony).

Asmodeus, LE: A lawful deity of trickery... No inherent limits on number of participants or duration, but every detail of the marriage must be written into a contract and signed in blood by all participants. The written marriage contract is binding upon the participants' souls.

Beshaba, CE: Any number of people. Does not require participants to be willing.

Cyric, CE: Two people. Does not require participants to be willing. This ceremony can be disguised as any other ceremony, or another ritual with 1 hour casting time. Wisdom(Insight) checks to determine the true goal of the caster have Disadvantage.

Kelemvor, LN (Death): Two willing people who love one another. Does not end upon death. This marriage can only be ended by mutual consent, and a second casting of Ceremony. As long as both people love one another, Kelemvor's power will work to ensure that they are reunited in the afterlife.

Lolth: Two people who do not love each other. Does not require participants to be willing. AC benefit range is increased to 120'.

Selune, CG (Moon): Two people who love one another. If one participant stops loving the other, the marriage ends and they each must wait one month before remarrying.

Silvanus, N (Nature): Any number of willing people. Any participant can leave the marriage at any time. Ceremony cost is 25gp of silver per person.

Sune, CG (Love): Two people who love one another. There is no limit to the number of marriages a person can be a part of simultaneously (although the AC bonus does not stack). If one participant stops loving the other, the marriage ends, and the other participant knows immediately.

[Honest Tiefling]

Beshaba, CE: Any number of people. Does not require participants to be willing.

This one might make for an excellent plot hook. A random PC (or all of them, why not) randomly find themselves married to random people, animals and plants. However, the other party is aware they are married, and aren't too pleased for a Beshaban wedding means that both parties share bad luck. PC rolls a 1? The other half suddenly has a bought of bad luck and fail at something. The PC also gets random disadvantage checks until they can find a way to get a divorce.

[Tiadoppler]

This one might make for an excellent plot hook. A random PC (or all of them, why not) randomly find themselves married to random people, animals and plants. However, the other party is aware they are married, and aren't too pleased for a Beshaban wedding means that both parties share bad luck. PC rolls a 1? The other half suddenly has a bought of bad luck and fail at something. The PC also gets random disadvantage checks until they can find a way to get a divorce.

That's great! I was thinking of Kelemvor's wedding ceremonies being a plot hook as well: a couple has been killed, and one (or both) of the souls have been stolen by a lich/claimed by a devil or whatever, and now Kelemvor's clerics are obligated to try to reunite the couple's souls by any means necessary, including hiring PCs as mercenaries.

Sune's ceremony is probably the most fickle. On one hand, it's 'free love utopia' with no real restrictions, on the other hand, you know exactly when your partner falls out of love with you...

I couldn't think of a good one for any of the war deities.

[Honest Tiefling]

I couldn't think of a good one for any of the war deities.

Uh, hello? Klingon marriage! Perhaps there are duels involved, and both partners need to display enough strength and cunning to win a certain number. Maybe you can challenge a wedding by challenging one of the members to combat, so you need to be prepared to fight after exchanging vows. Or heck, just get married on the battlefield, life is too short for prissy weddings, just exchange blood, get some booze and start fighting again.

I could see the Red Knight doing something a bit more orderly, as I imagine a lot of her following marries out a lot, and both sides don't need to be warriors. Since they are high ranking commanders and generals, chances are good they could get a noblewoman or nobleman with little effort. However, the SCAG calls out drilling troops in her temple as a form of worship, so I imagine in that case the duels would be in honor of the couple, not necessarily involving both parties.

Or you need to present a certain number of weapons or trophies to each other before the proceedings can begin. That idea could even work for druid weddings, where you need to present some from of trophy to indicate your ability to provide for young. And if you don't have young, why are you getting married? Even homosexual couples can get around this via adoption.

[Tiadoppler]

Uh, hello? Klingon marriage! Perhaps there are duels involved, and both partners need to display enough strength and cunning to win a certain number. Maybe you can challenge a wedding by challenging one of the members to combat, so you need to be prepared to fight after exchanging vows. Or heck, just get married on the battlefield, life is too short for prissy weddings, just exchange blood, get some booze and start fighting again.

I could see the Red Knight doing something a bit more orderly, as I imagine a lot of her following marries out a lot, and both sides don't need to be warriors. Since they are high ranking commanders and generals, chances are good they could get a noblewoman or nobleman with little effort. However, the SCAG calls out drilling troops in her temple as a form of worship, so I imagine in that case the duels would be in honor of the couple, not necessarily involving both parties.

Or you need to present a certain number of weapons or trophies to each other before the proceedings can begin. That idea could even work for druid weddings, where you need to present some from of trophy to indicate your ability to provide for young. And if you don't have young, why are you getting married? Even homosexual couples can get around this via adoption.

The +2 AC bonus already seems very "battlefield couple" to me. Maybe the +2 AC bonus for war deity couples lasts a minute after they leave the 30' range. That way they can go kill things with abandon, then come back together with the spoils of victory.

I like the idea of Chauntea's (Agriculture, Life, NG) weddings requiring proof of fertility in the form of a child (adopted or otherwise) before the marriage can be completed.

What do you think of an end of marriage penalty (-2 AC for a week after a marriage ends).


I think Torm (Courage, Sacrifice, War, LG), and many other LG deities would frown heavily upon immediate remarriage after a spouse's death. Maybe a bare minimum of a year.

[Honest Tiefling]

The +2 AC bonus already seems very "battlefield couple" to me. Maybe the +2 AC bonus for war deity couples lasts a minute after they leave the 30' range. That way they can go kill things with abandon, then come back together with the spoils of victory.

A real battle couple would fight together. Those who slay together stay together! Good advice for all you folks out there, just saying.


I like the idea of Chauntea's (Agriculture, Life, NG) weddings requiring proof of fertility in the form of a child (adopted or otherwise) before the marriage can be completed.

How...How would adoption be proof of fertility? Perhaps proof of an intent to start family, maybe. Maybe she just defers people to Selune or other gods, since baby-making is her domain, and the effects might only be relevant if baby-making is involved. Less 'two people of the same gender can't get married' more 'Are you sure you want THIS blessing? Did you accidentally call the wrong god? I could transfer you, I mean, you're really cute together, but there's a teensy problem with this...'.


What do you think of an end of marriage penalty (-2 AC for a week after a marriage ends).

If there are custom benefits, there should be custom penalties. Would reduce the black widow situation, and prevent some abuses of custom marriages. With so many options, someone is going to find a way to game it.


I think Torm (Courage, Sacrifice, War, LG), and many other LG deities would frown heavily upon immediate remarriage after a spouse's death. Maybe a bare minimum of a year.

Only issue is that a lot of people might not be able to delay marriage. Nobles might need to remarry lickety-split to avoid wars or gain alliances. Others might just need a second income or second adult to help take care of a large family. Remarriage might not be a bad thing, if it helps you provide for those you are sworn to. The first one might not have been about love in the first place, just a way to cement an alliance for the good of the people or bringing together two feuding groups.

[Tiadoppler]

A real battle couple would fight together. Those who slay together stay together! Good advice for all you folks out there, just saying.

A real real battle couple knows expert flanking tactics, and knows when to maneuver for maximum combat efficacy... in bed.




How...How would adoption be proof of fertility? Perhaps proof of an intent to start family, maybe. Maybe she just defers people to Selune or other gods, since baby-making is her domain, and the effects might only be relevant if baby-making is involved. Less 'two people of the same gender can't get married' more 'Are you sure you want THIS blessing? Did you accidentally call the wrong god? I could transfer you, I mean, you're really cute together, but there's a teensy problem with this...'.

Okay. I'm just brainstorming here, I was kind of thinking "a commitment to the next generation" rather than literal fertility.



If there are custom benefits, there should be custom penalties. Would reduce the black widow situation, and prevent some abuses of custom marriages. With so many options, someone is going to find a way to game it.

Agreed.



Only issue is that a lot of people might not be able to delay marriage. Nobles might need to remarry lickety-split to avoid wars or gain alliances. Others might just need a second income or second adult to help take care of a large family. Remarriage might not be a bad thing, if it helps you provide for those you are sworn to. The first one might not have been about love in the first place, just a way to cement an alliance for the good of the people or bringing together two feuding groups.

Well, what if your deity doesn't approve. What if they hold a secular wedding now, but can't get an actual blessing until later. Political maneuvering vs. religious belief might have plot relevance.

[EKruze]

The the ultimate narcissistic:

College of Glamour Bard takes Ceremony and Simulacrum. Marries his own Simulacrum and when the benefits expire Summon another.

[LeonBH]

The the ultimate narcissistic:

College of Glamour Bard takes Ceremony and Simulacrum. Marries his own Simulacrum and when the benefits expire Summon another.

The real question is what the Bard does with his simulacrum on his honey moon.

[danpit2991]

Now, what qualifies as an adult? In our modern day and age, we consider it to be 18, or 100 for elves, but people were married far younger back in the dark ages. Are 14 year olds (what I believe to be the average marrying age for girls back then) eligible for the Ceremony spell?

the actual average age was early 20's for women and late 20's for men the reason we think it was so young was because the only marriages that people seem to care about were the political ones and yes those had marriages as young as 8

[JackPhoenix]

I doubt most FR deities would care about weddings, except Sune and maybe Chauntea (and Loviatar). They have their portfolios for a reason, and marriage doesn't fit in most of them.

[Honest Tiefling]

I doubt most FR deities would care about weddings, except Sune and maybe Chauntea (and Loviatar). They have their portfolios for a reason, and marriage doesn't fit in most of them.

Babies = Followers, and Happy Marriages = followers, so I'd think a whole heck of a lot of gods might not care so much about the marriage so much as getting followers to pray to them (and not other gods) and to generate more followers. The following would also care for other reasons:

Tymora: Weddings often include rituals and superstitions to wish luck and fertility upon the happy couple/whatever. Clearly, Tymora would be concerned with the former, less so the latter.
Beshaba: What, a happy occasion wishing luck? NOT ON HER WATCH!
Selune: Weddings between outcasts would be of extreme importance to her, as would ushering in motherhood. Or already being one, which is how a lot of cultures handled things. I also imagine that lesbians, being a couple of mothers and producing double-motherhood might also fit in well here. Since Selune is motherhood AND outcasts, she could also serve as an orphan depot for anyone unable to otherwise be a mother.
Helm: If you use lore from older editions, Helm is super protective of children. And since marriage is often associated with baby-making, Helm is sure as hell going to involve himself if you follow that lore.
Savras: As the god of divination, he would likely be called upon to determine the baby's fate. Sure would be a good practice to drum up some support.
Talona: You might not want her showing up, but that's unlikely to stop her as giving birth can be difficult without modern medicine. Sure would be a shame...(gimme money)

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

There's a difference between bribing an evil god to ignore you and doing something in their name, though. As for the others... wedding itself has nothing to do with divination, and while luck is important for everyone, marriage doesn't really strike me as Tymora's schtick... unless you link it to gambling somehow?

Selune and Helm, yeah, I can see that.

[Honest Tiefling]

There's a difference between bribing an evil god to ignore you and doing something in their name, though. As for the others... wedding itself has nothing to do with divination, and while luck is important for everyone, marriage doesn't really strike me as Tymora's schtick... unless you link it to gambling somehow?

Then go to a wedding and count how many things are done for luck, such as the ol' 'something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue' thing. Or the fact that bridesmaids are a thing. Or wearing/not wearing red to a wedding. Or giving knives at a wedding. Or carrying the bride over the threshold. Or wearing a veil. When you think about it, a wedding is typically a giant ritual to good luck followed by drinking and arguing. If that's not the time to involve her, when is? When you aren't trying to invoke luck?

[JackPhoenix]

Then go to a wedding and count how many things are done for luck, such as the ol' 'something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue' thing. Or the fact that bridesmaids are a thing. Or wearing/not wearing red to a wedding. Or giving knives at a wedding. Or carrying the bride over the threshold. Or wearing a veil. When you think about it, a wedding is typically a giant ritual to good luck followed by drinking and arguing. If that's not the time to involve her, when is? When you aren't trying to invoke luck?

First, those things are hardly universal... most of it doesn't apply to weddings here. And, again, like with the evil gods' blackmail, there's a difference between making a small sacrifice to different god(s) for luck and dedicating your entire wedding to a deity who doesn't have anything related to marriage in her portfolio.

[Tiadoppler]

There's a difference between bribing an evil god to ignore you and doing something in their name, though. As for the others... wedding itself has nothing to do with divination, and while luck is important for everyone, marriage doesn't really strike me as Tymora's schtick... unless you link it to gambling somehow?

Selune and Helm, yeah, I can see that.

Even if a deity doesn't have have a domain/direct interest in marriage, their followers would still be getting married, in their places of worship, by their priests. Perhaps they wouldn't have a specific opinion on how marriage is supposed to work, but the deity's religion would still be performing wedding ceremonies.

D&D deities do lots of things that aren't directly tied to their domain or alignment. If an entire city was devoutly devoted to (for example) Tymora, Tymora's priests and clerics would be the ones performing (Vegas style?) wedding ceremonies in that city.

[HMS Invincible]

Some of you are really uptight about a bunch of murder hobos getting married to each other. Honestly, if one lives through a week of combat, they earned the right to remarry without gm houserules over a measly 2 ac. Besides, when by the time they can really abuse it, ac will only be a fraction of the defenses they need.

[Armok]

With the power of metamagic, you can subtle spell Ceremony. The next time two PCs start giving eachother furtive looks you can cupid the hell out of 'em from the shadows, and skip the romantic subplot entirely so we can stop watching our friends awkwardly fictionally hit on eachother and get back to what really matters!

[sflame56]

I mean one way to abuse this is awaken. You could awaken an animal and have it fall in love with you since you have advantage on it for a month since its charmed. Then you just ceremony. I do feel killing off the spouse is the part where this should only be done in evil campaigns. People would go looking for the missing loved one.

[Tiadoppler]

With the power of metamagic, you can subtle spell Ceremony. The next time two PCs start giving eachother furtive looks you can cupid the hell out of 'em from the shadows, and skip the romantic subplot entirely so we can stop watching our friends awkwardly fictionally hit on eachother and get back to what really matters!

You'd still have to spend a solid hour within 10' of both targets (and they'd have to be willing to be bonded together in marriage).


The latter is tricky to tell for sure from the outside, the former makes you look like an utter creep, and at the end of the night, you're still out 25gp.

[Oerlaf]

Well, if Order of the Stick was in 5e, Elan and Haley could receive the effect, and Elan wouldn't need running naked.

[JackPhoenix]

Even if a deity doesn't have have a domain/direct interest in marriage, their followers would still be getting married, in their places of worship, by their priests. Perhaps they wouldn't have a specific opinion on how marriage is supposed to work, but the deity's religion would still be performing wedding ceremonies.

D&D deities do lots of things that aren't directly tied to their domain or alignment. If an entire city was devoutly devoted to (for example) Tymora, Tymora's priests and clerics would be the ones performing (Vegas style?) wedding ceremonies in that city.

Right... for a moment, I forgot we're talking about FR, and not about something with non-stupid version of polytheism. What's the point of having deities with separate portfolios, if they can mess with the portfolios of other deities? That's why pantheons have gods with different jobs in the first place!

Anyway, main problem with Ceremony is that while it's super-flavorful, developers has, for some reason, decided to put combat bonuses where they aren't needed or wanted. It makes no sense for marriage to give AC increase: improved fertility would be better, so would be increased marital art dice... I mean, advantage on Dex, Str, Con and Cha checks relative to the spouse for some time after the wedding.

As for the drow: as written, it doesn't make sense. Marriages aren't a thing amongst them. Now, if it was a bonus for a female drow (priestess or not), who, in true spiderlike fashion ...ahem... use... and sacrifice a male to Lolth... that would work.

[Honest Tiefling]

Some of you are really uptight about a bunch of murder hobos getting married to each other. Honestly, if one lives through a week of combat, they earned the right to remarry without gm houserules over a measly 2 ac. Besides, when by the time they can really abuse it, ac will only be a fraction of the defenses they need.

Interrupting marriages via crashing in through the window is a fine narrative tradition I refuse to give up.

Through subtle spell on ceremony is hilarious. Just keeping marrying people so they can't benefit from the spell until they have learned WHO they are married to and find a way to kill them.

[Caelic]

"If anyone knows any reason why these two should not be wed, speak now or..."

"I COUNTERSPELL!"

[Angelalex242]

Instead of exploiting it like idiots, one would think Lawful Good deities want to promote fidelity, and staying together. It also promotes the ever amusing idea of PCs marrying each other for the defensive bonus. So, throw out the one week thing. Let that AC bonus be permanent. And throw in a rule that divorce comes with a long term AC penalty (maybe a month, or 4 game sessions, whichever comes first...)

Also write in that marriages must be done in good faith to get the bonus. If the PCs aren't doing it cause they love each other, no bonus. Promote RP, right?

DM: Ya know, I'm not feelin' the love right now. No AC bonus for you two.

[Tiadoppler]

DM: Ya know, I'm not feelin' the love right now. No AC bonus for you two.


Did you forget to do the dishes? Go sleep on the couch and take an Armor penalty until I'm willing to speak to you again!

If it's permanent (and from an uptight LG deity), I'd make a +1 AC bonus within 20' or 25', with a -1 penalty for a year after a divorce.

[Honest Tiefling]

Also write in that marriages must be done in good faith to get the bonus. If the PCs aren't doing it cause they love each other, no bonus. Promote RP, right?

DM: Ya know, I'm not feelin' the love right now. No AC bonus for you two.

But what if two Tormite paladins got married together to get the AC bonus to protect the innocent? He's the god of sacrifice after all, and these two are sacrificing their own romantic interests for the good of others. And technically, that is fidelity!

I do think if you get custom rules for ceremony, you also get the AC penalty. Either take it as written or obey the gods of the setting or just don't get married.

[Cybren]

Few things.

1. There's no such thing as the "Dark Ages".

2. It's a myth that women all got married as children in the medieval period, late teens to early twenties was pretty consistently the norm forEeurope at least. That misconception comes from people misunderstanding the rare, usually politically motivated teen marriage as being the norm. Usually closely related to the idea that everyone was an old man at 35 in those times, due to misunderstanding how life expectancy works.

3. PHB specifically says that Humans reach adulthood in their late teens.

Don't forget that marriage throughout a lot of the middle ages consisted of two people just... agreeing that they are married before a witness, and then at some point in the future telling a priest.

[Tiadoppler]

Don't forget that marriage throughout a lot of the middle ages consisted of two people just... agreeing that they are married before a witness, and then at some point in the future telling a priest.

Good grief, that's so disorganized! How did they calculate their AC bonus then??

[CursedRhubarb]

This could be interesting with a Zealot Barbarian. They get the boost, die within a week, free rez, and get boosted again.

[Angelalex242]

But what if two Tormite paladins got married together to get the AC bonus to protect the innocent? He's the god of sacrifice after all, and these two are sacrificing their own romantic interests for the good of others. And technically, that is fidelity!

I do think if you get custom rules for ceremony, you also get the AC penalty. Either take it as written or obey the gods of the setting or just don't get married.

As long as it suits the god, it's all good. But even Torm generally wants his followers to be happy. (and it's more likely to be Paladins marrying Clerics. Better strategy that way. 2 paladins just don't work well together in 5e.)

[UnderwaterAir]

As a DM I'd allow it the first time. The second time you tried it I'll say that the magic is actually granted by a greater being who refuses to bless your false marriage.

[Moxxmix]

OK, so, spell does not specify the number of individuals to be married. Range of the spell is touch. Someone mentioned a 10 foot range, but I'm not sure where that came from. The caster has to "touch adult humanoids".

Now add a sorcerer subclass to get Distant Spell (or have a sorcerer grab 1 level of cleric, or maybe use the Divine Soul spell pick), changing a touch spell into a 30 foot range. Since the spell is not restricted to a single target, or even two targets, presumably that means you can 'touch' as many targets as are present in a 30' radius. That's somewhere around 135 to 150 5' squares if you measure a circle (rather than make a 65'x65' square, which would provide 168 spots aside from the priest). Just call it an even 150, though you could likely fit more in there.

And now you can armor up a platoon or so of married individuals. Heck, it doesn't even say that the individuals can't already be married; just that they can't get the AC bonus (again) until they've been widowed.

Now, what constitutes being 'widowed'? Well, when your spouse dies, you become a widow. Of course, there is no restriction saying that that spouse has to be your only spouse. So, if any of the 150 married individuals dies, all of them become widowed, and eligible to re-do the ceremony (plus fill in missing spots, if desired).


Now: Use this on your ordinary goblin village. Sadly, goblins die fairly often. So every adult in the village gets +2 AC for a week whenever that happens, which is pretty much a permanent +2 AC.

However... As someone mentioned, there's nothing saying you don't get the bonus even after your spouse dies, as long as your spouse is within 30' of you. There's also nothing saying that the AC bonus doesn't stack on multiple uses.

So, a goblin dies pretty much every single day, given a large enough number of goblins. Have the village shaman re-perform the marriage ceremony each evening for all the widows and widowers. And now you have up to a stacked +14 AC for an entire village of goblins. Though they probably lose the AC bonus as they become near-invulnerable to the things that would kill them, so it'll bounce up and down a lot. But at their peak (or if they decide to attack your camp each night, and you manage to kill just one of the little buggers before they run off, and this happens for several nights running), you've got a hoard of AC 29 goblins raining down on your head.


The only real limit for the goblins is the material cost of casting it. But we also have someone who does have that money to spare.

Going to war means sending lots of soldiers at an enemy. When they first sign up, a kingdom can make sure their 100-man units are all married. The first assault might lose a few, but when they come back for the second go-around, they're all remarkably tougher to fight. And then tougher the next day. And the next.

The ceremony cost is the same as replacing a single shortbow. Hell yeah the kingdom can afford that. Even if you want to cheap out and go chain mail instead of plate (difference enough for 57 casts of the spell, per soldier), that's capping out at 32 AC.


Frankly, this is just begging for abuse in large-scale combat. The serial-marrying bard is barely touching the edge of its potential.


For adventurers, just have the entire party get married. Adventurers have an annoying tendency to die (and come back), so they're likely to get widowed on a fairly regular basis, without needing to kill anyone in particular. They might even be stacking AC like the goblins. No need to go out murdering people.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Now, what constitutes being 'widowed'? Well, when your spouse dies, you become a widow. Of course, there is no restriction saying that that spouse has to be your only spouse. So, if any of the 150 married individuals dies, all of them become widowed, and eligible to re-do the ceremony (plus fill in missing spots, if desired)..
I've actually looked into this and near as I can tell the term "windowed" doesn't apply in Polygamous relationships. Except for the wives if the singular husband dies. So in other words you can't be windowed unless you have no spouses.

[Moxxmix]

I've actually looked into this and near as I can tell the term "windowed" doesn't apply in Polygamous relationships. Except for the wives if the singular husband dies. So in other words you can't be windowed unless you have no spouses.
I've not been able to find anything regarding the use of the term where all individuals in the marriage were married to all other individuals. There is, of course, reference to one husband with multiple wives, and the wives were all considered widows after his death. However none of the wives were married to the other wives, so lengthwise references wouldn't apply 'widow' to them.

A strict reading of the definition does not seem to exclude my interpretation. If you have an actual reference for usage, that would help.

[Tiadoppler]

OK, so, spell does not specify the number of individuals to be married. Range of the spell is touch. Someone mentioned a 10 foot range, but I'm not sure where that came from. The caster has to "touch adult humanoids".

...

The range is Touch, but "the target of which must be within 10 feet of you throughout the casting". Because this isn't the spell range, it isn't affected by Distant Spell.

The targets must be "adult humanoids willing to be bonded together in marriage".

Same spell effects do not stack.

Depending on how you interpret "each other", you may need all members of the marriage to be within 30' feet of one another.



The debatable definition of "widowed" is a cool loophole.



I think it'd be tricky to find any group of 100 people who are all willing to be married to each other person (although it depends on what their society means by "marriage").

If a DM allows this, they deserve whatever happens to their campaign.

[Moxxmix]

The range is Touch, but "the target of which must be within 10 feet of you throughout the casting". Because this isn't the spell range, it isn't affected by Distant Spell.

The targets must be "adult humanoids willing to be bonded together in marriage".

Same spell effects do not stack.

Depending on how you interpret "each other", you may need all members of the marriage to be within 30' feet of one another.



The debatable definition of "widowed" is a cool loophole.



I think it'd be tricky to find any group of 100 people who are all willing to be married to each other person (although it depends on what their society means by "marriage").

If a DM allows this, they deserve whatever happens to their campaign.

Ah, I was reading the bottom half of the spell, and forgot to re-read the top half. So that's where the 10' range came from. Ah well. And I guess the stacking was too much to hope for. My army of goblins has been defeated. But I wouldn't be surprised if a couple dozen could keep the +2.

[Angelalex242]

Would've been defeated by any 5th level wizard anyway. They have to stay clumped, so FIREBALL! Game over.

[Knaight]

Would've been defeated by any 5th level wizard anyway. They have to stay clumped, so FIREBALL! Game over.

They benefit while clumped. That's not the same thing as having to stay clumped, and that +2 AC can be traded away for things like not being within individual AoE spreads.

[Rowcar]

I think this discussion has gone seriously off the rails. I think everyone in this thread is actually missing the point of the "Ceremony", when they make it about "marraiage". The spell can actually be enacted as a part of any gathering focused on a specific purpose. If you think about it, in "The Fellowship of the Ring" specifically when Lord Elrond declares the people volunteering to accompany Sam and Frodo on their mission to destroy "The Ring" "The Fellowship of The Ring" he consecrates the group naming them "The Fellowship of The Ring" effectively casting the "Ceremony" spell. Any occasion which brings people together in an organized way: weeding, funeral, birthday party or a weekly "Town Hall Meeting" meets the conditions necessary for a Cleric to cast the spell on any or all of the attendees.

[Aett_Thorn]

I think this discussion has gone seriously off the rails. I think everyone in this thread is actually missing the point of the "Ceremony", when they make it about "marraiage". The spell can actually be enacted as a part of any gathering focused on a specific purpose. If you think about it, in "The Fellowship of the Ring" specifically when Lord Elrond declares the people volunteering to accompany Sam and Frodo on their mission to destroy "The Ring" "The Fellowship of The Ring" he consecrates the group naming them "The Fellowship of The Ring" effectively casting the "Ceremony" spell. Any occasion which brings people together in an organized way: weeding, funeral, birthday party or a weekly "Town Hall Meeting" meets the conditions necessary for a Cleric to cast the spell on any or all of the attendees.

Thread necro, ahoy!

The discussion had gone off the rails, but was also over quite some time ago.

[Roland St. Jude]

Thread necro, ahoy!

The discussion had gone off the rails, but was also over quite some time ago.Sheriff: Indeed.