How do you deal with hordes of enemies?

[The Random NPC]

We started a 2e campaign a bit back, and we just ran into a really disappointing battle with 20 kobolds that nearly kill us all. Our group is a 4th level Thief, a 2nd level Fighter with the Bladesinging fighting style, a Priest, and a 1/3 Wizard/Loremaster Bard. We're all elves of varying flavors. It just seem way too much of a threat for 35 exp each; are there any ways to help deal with hordes of monsters other than the attacks equal to level against less than 1 HD monsters Fighters get?

[MeeposFire]

We started a 2e campaign a bit back, and we just ran into a really disappointing battle with 20 kobolds that nearly kill us all. Our group is a 4th level Thief, a 2nd level Fighter with the Bladesinging fighting style, a Priest, and a 1/3 Wizard/Loremaster Bard. We're all elves of varying flavors. It just seem way too much of a threat for 35 exp each; are there any ways to help deal with hordes of monsters other than the attacks equal to level against less than 1 HD monsters Fighters get?

Well to be honest that special number of attacks per level on 1HD monsters is a 1e rule and not a 2e as I recall so you are probably not getting that.

Honestly tactics are your best bet. You need to fight in suh a way to reduce the number of attacks getting to you and keep your attacks up. Bottling them up somewhere can be effective though kobolds tend to be trappers so this may not be an option and they may do it to you instead. Ranged attacks can be good if you can get them (bows with their increased ROF will help a lot so long as you can keep it going). AOE would help but your wizard probaby lacks good options so you will have to go to more mundame methods like flaming oil. Leading the kobolds into an area drenched and oil and lighting it or instance can kill a bunch at a time which is what you may need but once again may not be easy to pull off.

[The Random NPC]

The extra attack thing is an optional rule in the DMG, and unfortunately, we were ambushed. As far as I could tell there wasn't much in the way of tactically advantageous terrain around, and we were surrounded anyways. I'm actually the Wizard, and I just got access to 2nd level spells, plus I pillaged a spellbook from a dead wizard. It has Ray of Enfeeblement, Scare, Summon Swarm, Fool's Gold, Bind, and Glitterdust (which I think is my best option) but my GM says I need to purchase reagents to learn spells so that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

[LibraryOgre]

The extra attack thing is an optional rule in the DMG, and unfortunately, we were ambushed. As far as I could tell there wasn't much in the way of tactically advantageous terrain around, and we were surrounded anyways. I'm actually the Wizard, and I just got access to 2nd level spells, plus I pillaged a spellbook from a dead wizard. It has Ray of Enfeeblement, Scare, Summon Swarm, Fool's Gold, Bind, and Glitterdust (which I think is my best option) but my GM says I need to purchase reagents to learn spells so that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

Scare is pretty potent at that level against kobolds... no save except for their priest, and they won't fight unless cornered, and then at a penalty.

But, really, y'all're outnumbered 5:1. At low levels, that's going to tear you up unless you have something like a conga line of death going on.

[Lapak]

Yeah, crowds in Ad&d are difficult for low-level parties - the dice are going to go against you when the enemy is rolling several times as many per round.

The possible methods are (in reverse order of effectiveness):
- stand-up fight
- defensive choke point
- area effect (trap prepared in advance, Sleep spells, etc.)
- avoiding the fight

And an ambush in open terrain with no real arcane casting left you with nothing but the first option. The question is, did you have any opportunity to avoid that? (E.g. were you going into a known Kobold stronghold, or did the DM give you hints that the area was dangerous, or did you have the opportunity to scout the terrain and didn’t take it, etc.)

If the possibility existed for you to know this was coming and you walked into it, think about how you could have prepared for it and do that in the future. If the DM just sprang this encounter on you (“as you travel to the next town, suddenly kobolds jump out of the bushes. You are surrounded, roll initiative!”) that’s kind of bad DMing in AD&D and it might be worth talking with him about giving you more agency in your own prep in the future, or saying ‘given what we learned from that, from here on forward we’ll be scouting the terrain while we travel, how do you want to handle that?’ or some such.

[Thrudd]

Yep. Run away. If you've got a spell that can distract or daze them, use it. Toss down treasure and hope they aren't all bloodthirsty enough to ignore it, Toss some food in case they're hungry and looking at you as dinner.

[Lord Torath]

The bit about the spellbook you can't use reminds me of a thread here a while back on these forums by a DM who was concerned he might have been giving out too much treasure as a reward for Dragon Slaying (my search-fu is failing me here, and I can't seem to locate it). He said that some of the dragon treasure was cursed, and the rest of it had strings attached before it could be used. There were several suggestions, but the post that really stood out to me re-framed the question in terms of pancakes:

"I want to reward my players with Pancakes, but I'm afraid I may be giving them too many. Half of them fell on the floor and got stepped on, and the rest are mildly poisoned. Do you think I'm giving them too many?"

Something else you may want to discuss with your DM is rewards that are not really rewards.

Edit: Sleep! I forgot to mention that Sleep is another spell that is highly effective against kobolds. 2d4 HD means 4-16 kobolds out of the battle with no save.

[The Random NPC]

We did come across a merchant caravan that had been attacked, but as we are new to 2e, we expected more notice checks to avoid the kobolds. Also, I now think my GM doesn't use morale checks.

[rax]

I second the proposal to run away and fight another day, or at least a few rounds later. Kobolds only have movement 6, so you should have had no trouble getting clear. Ideally, you'll also be able to conduct a fighting retreat, cutting down the closest pursuers as they get near and then retreating when the main body closes with you. If you have access to bows, this becomes easier, since you can either fire on the move, or put some distance between you and the kobolds and then shoot them down when they get within range.

Morale is another important factor in AD&D. The DMG suggests roleplaying morale as the best choice, but when faced with large numbers of foes, I definitely prefer dicing for morale. The DMG recommends making a morale check after an opponent has lost 25% of its hit points or - in the case of groups of enemies - 25% of their force. So if you had managed to kill four kobolds they would have had to make a morale check, which means rolling above 8-10 (kobold morale) on 2d10. The roll can be further modified by situational modifiers, where losing 25% of the force itself adds a -2 penalty to the kobold's morale.

[Lapak]

We did come across a merchant caravan that had been attacked, but as we are new to 2e, we expected more notice checks to avoid the kobolds. Also, I now think my GM doesn't use morale checks.Yep, morale is an important thing on both sides - you control your own, but should keep the idea of ‘retreat or surrender if necessary’ in mind at all times as others have said. In addition, monsters which want to rob you may be willing to take some of your stuff with no fight rather than try for all of it with a fight.

That said, definitely a lesson going forward is to be extremely proactive and specific about your reaction to cues like the caravan. Tell the DM how you’re preparing for the possibility of bandits - potential tactics having a scout or scouts separate from the party so you can’t al be surprised at once, taking a defensive formation that gives you an advantage if you are ambushed, using a familiar as an aerial scout, traveling off the road rather than on it, or even assembling a makeshift defense in place if you think they’ll come to you and you have time. 2e leans more heavily on non-game-mechanical actions to determine things like this.

[Thrudd]

If the DM just sprang this encounter on you (“as you travel to the next town, suddenly kobolds jump out of the bushes. You are surrounded, roll initiative!”) that’s kind of bad DMing in AD&D and it might be worth talking with him about giving you more agency in your own prep in the future, or saying ‘given what we learned from that, from here on forward we’ll be scouting the terrain while we travel, how do you want to handle that?’ or some such.

Its not bad DMing at all, this is built into the rules of the game. AD&D has a thing called the surprise roll, and wandering monsters in the wilderness. Getting ambushed (aka being surprised by wandering monsters in the wilderness), is a common occurrence. Sometimes you surprise them, too, and have a chance to sneak away without alerting them or trying to parley or set your own ambush.

[Lapak]

Its not bad DMing at all, this is built into the rules of the game. AD&D has a thing called the surprise roll, and wandering monsters in the wilderness. Getting ambushed (aka being surprised by wandering monsters in the wilderness), is a common occurrence. Sometimes you surprise them, too, and have a chance to sneak away without alerting them or trying to parley or set your own ambush.
Yeah, “bad DMing” was overstating the case, but I would generally consider it more-than-typically unforgiving to have a score of anything drop into combat on a low-level party with no chance to mitigate the situation. Particularly with kobolds, who are usually cowardly, I’d typically have them demand surrender/tribute from a tactically-superior position if they got the drop on a party.

In this case they WERE given hints that trouble was afoot, so it’s not even that unforgiving.

[Duff]

If I've understood correctly, your complaint is basicly about the poor risk-reward balance from large numbers of low level monsters.
You're wondering about ways to reduce the risk since the reward side is light on.

Good tactics will sure help, but they'll help with any encounter. AOE spells and attacks are great, especially if moral is included.
A sleep spell drops a dozen, the ranger picks off the chief with a couple of good shots and the little monsters flee.

If this sort of fight is a main-stay of the campaign, either your GM is wanting slow advancement or they should assign "Story xp" as well

[thorr-kan]

Fireball. Fireball is always the answer. Unless the answer is More Fireballs.

Everybody's advice about tactics, morale, and running for another day are all good advice. 2ED's play style include fights you can't win, negotiation, and running away.

That said, 2ED's play style also includes blasting, hence the aforementioned fireball. Sixth-level wizards feel like gods when they're first fireball clears out a horde of bad guys.

[The Random NPC]

Well, Fireball and the like are a few levels off, but I'll keep the tactics suggestion in mind. As far as retreat was concerned since we don't use minis, everything kind of exists in superposition determined by the GM. I remember at one point there were 8 osquips attacking our Bladesinger, despite the fact that he was flanked by the Thief and the Priest. To be completely fair, that was because the Bladesinger had an AC of -1, but now that the kid gloves are off it becomes more important that we know where things are so that we can make tactically sound decisions (and to be clear, by the time we were thinking about retreating we had already killed like 13 of them). Additionally, a not insignificant part of my complaint is that the combat took so long. Although anything we hit died, we weren't rolling too well that night so there were a lot of whiffs. And since it lasted so long, we ended up using 8 of our 9 potions of Extra Healing, 1 of our potions of Healing, and the Priest's lone spell. I was hoping there were some better options to mitigate the risk and time but if there isn't, we'll just have to proceed a lot more cautiously.

[Thrudd]

Well, Fireball and the like are a few levels off, but I'll keep the tactics suggestion in mind. As far as retreat was concerned since we don't use minis, everything kind of exists in superposition determined by the GM. I remember at one point there were 8 osquips attacking our Bladesinger, despite the fact that he was flanked by the Thief and the Priest. To be completely fair, that was because the Bladesinger had an AC of -1, but now that the kid gloves are off it becomes more important that we know where things are so that we can make tactically sound decisions (and to be clear, by the time we were thinking about retreating we had already killed like 13 of them). Additionally, a not insignificant part of my complaint is that the combat took so long. Although anything we hit died, we weren't rolling too well that night so there were a lot of whiffs. And since it lasted so long, we ended up using 8 of our 9 potions of Extra Healing, 1 of our potions of Healing, and the Priest's lone spell. I was hoping there were some better options to mitigate the risk and time but if there isn't, we'll just have to proceed a lot more cautiously.

Convince the DM to use morale rolls, at least in situations like this with a big group of enemies. The kobolds probably should have bolted or surrendered by the time you killed ten of them, possibly after only five (unless some of your party were dead or unconscious, too). Also suggest using minis for combats with more than a few participants, as you've noticed why it's necessary. And also hopefully you're using side initiative and not individual initiative - or at least he's rolling one initiative for the whole group of enemies even if each of the player are rolling separately. And rolling a handful of dice at a time for the enemy attacks, when there's that many of them.

There are ways to speed up combat and keep it moving - there shouldn't be too many battles that last more than 15 minutes or so of session time.

[The Random NPC]

We are using group initiative with weapon speeds, which I personally dislike but that isn't worth mentioning to him. Using minis is a non-starter, he feels that they're a crutch for the lazy that do nothing but wastes the GM's time and effort. He makes his feelings know whenever we try to use a map when he isn't GMing and the worst part is he isn't as good as he thinks he is. I can try to suggest the morale rules but I don't have high hopes, his default defense when presented with information that he isn't aware of is to imply that you're lying (Me: Hey I just looked it up, a natural 1 is an automatic miss, not a crit. Him: You're wrong).

[Lord Torath]

Convince the DM to use morale rolls, at least in situations like this with a big group of enemies. The kobolds probably should have bolted or surrendered by the time you killed ten of them, possibly after only five (unless some of your party were dead or unconscious, too). Also suggest using minis for combats with more than a few participants, as you've noticed why it's necessary. Even if you're not using a grid and/or ruler (I don't), just having minis let's you show the relative locations of your characters, so you can show that you're covering each other's backs and such.

Best of luck to you!

[Thrudd]

We are using group initiative with weapon speeds, which I personally dislike but that isn't worth mentioning to him. Using minis is a non-starter, he feels that they're a crutch for the lazy that do nothing but wastes the GM's time and effort. He makes his feelings know whenever we try to use a map when he isn't GMing and the worst part is he isn't as good as he thinks he is. I can try to suggest the morale rules but I don't have high hopes, his default defense when presented with information that he isn't aware of is to imply that you're lying (Me: Hey I just looked it up, a natural 1 is an automatic miss, not a crit. Him: You're wrong).

As DM, he does have the right to ultimately decide what the rules of the game are, even if they aren't in the book. Of course, he should tell you what rules are being used and where they are published, if they are published, and what rules are his own house rules. If he's claiming that everything is by the book but it isn't, that's easy to correct. If everyone dislikes a rule, you could all maybe persuade him to a change together, if you think he could take that sort of criticism.

I have known one or two people in my time who would not react well to any number of people giving criticism, however polite or correct they are. If your guy is the sort who would pout and throw dice across the room or toss you out of the game for complaining, like one person I knew...well your options are clear.

If he refuses to use minis and does things like allowing ten enemies to attack one person, then you should all start using language like "I get in a position where no more than one enemy can attack me." Or "we stay back to back so no one can get behind us" or "I throw the burning oil so it splashes on all of them." Take advantage of the imprecise nature of verbal-only combat every way you can, since he seems to be doing the same.

[FreddyNoNose]

Yeah, crowds in Ad&d are difficult for low-level parties - the dice are going to go against you when the enemy is rolling several times as many per round.

The possible methods are (in reverse order of effectiveness):
- stand-up fight
- defensive choke point
- area effect (trap prepared in advance, Sleep spells, etc.)
- avoiding the fight

And an ambush in open terrain with no real arcane casting left you with nothing but the first option. The question is, did you have any opportunity to avoid that? (E.g. were you going into a known Kobold stronghold, or did the DM give you hints that the area was dangerous, or did you have the opportunity to scout the terrain and didn’t take it, etc.)

If the possibility existed for you to know this was coming and you walked into it, think about how you could have prepared for it and do that in the future. If the DM just sprang this encounter on you (“as you travel to the next town, suddenly kobolds jump out of the bushes. You are surrounded, roll initiative!”) that’s kind of bad DMing in AD&D and it might be worth talking with him about giving you more agency in your own prep in the future, or saying ‘given what we learned from that, from here on forward we’ll be scouting the terrain while we travel, how do you want to handle that?’ or some such.
The good old blame the DM tactic. shame on you.

[The Glyphstone]

The bit about the spellbook you can't use reminds me of a thread here a while back on these forums by a DM who was concerned he might have been giving out too much treasure as a reward for Dragon Slaying (my search-fu is failing me here, and I can't seem to locate it). He said that some of the dragon treasure was cursed, and the rest of it had strings attached before it could be used. There were several suggestions, but the post that really stood out to me re-framed the question in terms of pancakes:

"I want to reward my players with Pancakes, but I'm afraid I may be giving them too many. Half of them fell on the floor and got stepped on, and the rest are mildly poisoned. Do you think I'm giving them too many?"

Something else you may want to discuss with your DM is rewards that are not really rewards.

Edit: Sleep! I forgot to mention that Sleep is another spell that is highly effective against kobolds. 2d4 HD means 4-16 kobolds out of the battle with no save.

That's the Red Fel quote I keep in my sig, IIRC. The treasure in question was specifically one acre of land.

[Lord Torath]

That's the Red Fel quote I keep in my sig, IIRC. The treasure in question was specifically one acre of land.Huh. I could have sworn I went back and edited that into my post two days ago when I saw your sig in another thread, but apparently I didn't manage to hit "Save Changes". :smallredface:

[CE DM]

We started a 2e campaign a bit back, and we just ran into a really disappointing battle with 20 kobolds that nearly kill us all. Our group is a 4th level Thief, a 2nd level Fighter with the Bladesinging fighting style, a Priest, and a 1/3 Wizard/Loremaster Bard. We're all elves of varying flavors. It just seem way too much of a threat for 35 exp each; are there any ways to help deal with hordes of monsters other than the attacks equal to level against less than 1 HD monsters Fighters get?

magic

sleep spell is the classic standard response vs low level hordes. AOE attacks of any sort is the general one across all levels. Other than that, tactics & use of the battleground have to suffice (& often can have HUGE effects). Kobolds in specific are cowardly & tricky, though, so one needs be wary; they often don't bite on such efforts as luring them into choke-points & such.

Almost getting killed can be exciting, though, so I'm not sure there is as much a problem as you think. 5 people just defeated 20. I do not know if you have any real life fighting/combat experience, but that is freaking "epic!" when looked at without video game/movie brainwash.

Monster XP in AD&D & classic D&D is peanuts, BTW. It's never a major factor, unless, heaven help you, your DM is ONLY using it (a weird 2e thing). I wouldn't sweat it (unless...)


We are using group initiative with weapon speeds, which I personally dislike but that isn't worth mentioning to him. Using minis is a non-starter, he feels that they're a crutch for the lazy that do nothing but wastes the GM's time and effort. He makes his feelings know whenever we try to use a map when he isn't GMing and the worst part is he isn't as good as he thinks he is. I can try to suggest the morale rules but I don't have high hopes, his default defense when presented with information that he isn't aware of is to imply that you're lying (Me: Hey I just looked it up, a natural 1 is an automatic miss, not a crit. Him: You're wrong).

Well, "you are wrong" is not "you are lying". You are correct on 1 being a miss, but if the DM has a house rule they are fumbles (crit failure you meant?), then so long as they apply both ways, that's "correct" in his game.

Morale certainly ought be a factor, at least sometimes, and vs cowardly kobolds in particular. But I'm leery of passing judgement on a DM immediately just because they do or do not play d20 style (no morale there, BTW). And players shouldn't be so wedded to it either, as it's got as much downside as upside.


The extra attack thing is an optional rule in the DMG, and unfortunately, we were ambushed. As far as I could tell there wasn't much in the way of tactically advantageous terrain around, and we were surrounded anyways. I'm actually the Wizard, and I just got access to 2nd level spells, plus I pillaged a spellbook from a dead wizard. It has Ray of Enfeeblement, Scare, Summon Swarm, Fool's Gold, Bind, and Glitterdust (which I think is my best option) but my GM says I need to purchase reagents to learn spells so that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

a tough break, but as mentioned, they happen

most spell components are cheap. If you actually look them up, you might well find some on your own. Good luck on the learn spell % chances!

Bind: just the actual rope/string cast on
Fool's gold: copper pieces (or brass objects), using various gemstones are helpful, but great expense is not required
Glitterdust: ground mica. Depends on the terrain, and whether you have a mortar & pestle, etc. Or purchase. Good spell though!
Ray of Enfeeblement: V,S only
Scare is not a good spell at all, but a bit of bone from an undead is easily gained (you will defeat one at some point & have more than u will ever cast)
Summon swarm: a square of red cloth. You probably do need to buy some in town. Unless you have someone's clothing to cut up...

you are actually sitting pretty regarding L2 spells at least!

[The Random NPC]

magic

sleep spell is the classic standard response vs low level hordes. AOE attacks of any sort is the general one across all levels. Other than that, tactics & use of the battleground have to suffice (& often can have HUGE effects). Kobolds in specific are cowardly & tricky, though, so one needs be wary; they often don't bite on such efforts as luring them into choke-points & such.

Almost getting killed can be exciting, though, so I'm not sure there is as much a problem as you think. 5 people just defeated 20. I do not know if you have any real life fighting/combat experience, but that is freaking "epic!" when looked at without video game/movie brainwash.

Monster XP in AD&D & classic D&D is peanuts, BTW. It's never a major factor, unless, heaven help you, your DM is ONLY using it (a weird 2e thing). I wouldn't sweat it (unless...)



Well, "you are wrong" is not "you are lying". You are correct on 1 being a miss, but if the DM has a house rule they are fumbles (crit failure you meant?), then so long as they apply both ways, that's "correct" in his game.
He had previously stated it to be a rule and not a house rule. Having just looked it up, there are only two implications to his statement. Either that I'm lying to him, or that I have somehow misinterpreted a very simple statement. Plus there's a bunch of other times that he's done this, many of which were in games that others were running, and a few that had to do with real life facts. I'm fine with house rules, I'm less fine when people insist that their house rule is a book rule.


Morale certainly ought be a factor, at least sometimes, and vs cowardly kobolds in particular. But I'm leery of passing judgement on a DM immediately just because they do or do not play d20 style (no morale there, BTW). And players shouldn't be so wedded to it either, as it's got as much downside as upside.
I don't expect him to slavishly follow the book's rules, I'm just a little annoyed that monsters described as cowardly decided to fight to the last man when it was clear that they were outmatched. If it keeps happening I'll speak to him about it, but I'm not going to hold a single instance against him.



a tough break, but as mentioned, they happen

most spell components are cheap. If you actually look them up, you might well find some on your own. Good luck on the learn spell % chances!

Bind: just the actual rope/string cast on
Fool's gold: copper pieces (or brass objects), using various gemstones are helpful, but great expense is not required
Glitterdust: ground mica. Depends on the terrain, and whether you have a mortar & pestle, etc. Or purchase. Good spell though!
Ray of Enfeeblement: V,S only
Scare is not a good spell at all, but a bit of bone from an undead is easily gained (you will defeat one at some point & have more than u will ever cast)
Summon swarm: a square of red cloth. You probably do need to buy some in town. Unless you have someone's clothing to cut up...

you are actually sitting pretty regarding L2 spells at least!

It's not the spell components I need, just some nebulous reagents to learn the spell. Like in order to make the learn spell % roll I need to expend X amount of gold worth of reagents I don't have, thus preventing me from learning the spell in the field. And to be clear I don't mind if he imposes a house rule (though I'd appreciate the opportunity to retcon having purchased those reagents), but he's likely to insist that this is a book rule.

[CE DM]

Well, it isn't sounding good then, I have to now agree. Hopefully he has other qualities that are terrific, as it sounds like I'd bail myself.

[The Random NPC]

Well, it isn't sounding good then, I have to now agree. Hopefully he has other qualities that are terrific, as it sounds like I'd bail myself.

It sounds worse than it is, he's usually just mildly annoying at worst.

[jojo]

There's an awful lot of moving pieces in play here...


We started a 2e campaign a bit back...
...Our group is a 4th level Thief, a 2nd level Fighter with the Bladesinging fighting style, a Priest, and a 1/3 Wizard/Loremaster Bard...
...It just seem way too much of a threat for 35 exp each; are there any ways to help deal with hordes of monsters other than the attacks equal to level against less than 1 HD monsters Fighters get?

I may be off but I recall Bladesinger being a Fighter Kit rather than a Fighting Style. I don't recall a Wizard/Bard combo, much less Wizard/Bard-Kit being within the RAW.


I'm actually the Wizard, and I just got access to 2nd level spells, plus I pillaged a spellbook from a dead wizard...
...but my GM says I need to purchase reagents to learn spells so that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

I'm still confused by OPs multi-class combo. Regardless though the reagent thing is... not something I'm familiar with.


Yep. Run away. If you've got a spell that can distract or daze them, use it. Toss down treasure and hope they aren't all bloodthirsty enough to ignore it, Toss some food in case they're hungry and looking at you as dinner.

Scattering out some gold and/or mundane weapons as well as food while running is a decent option. If they split/stop then counter-attacking their broken formation becomes an option.

There are two good level 1 Wizard spells for this situation as well.

Sleep should drop at least 4 of them, forcing a morale save per the DMG, which ought to cause several more to scatter. There's no save for Sleep for Kobolds anyway.

Grease can cause any number of them to faceplant if it's well placed. Even a gently rising hill can really mess up an attacking force with a well placed Grease spell. Second to this is the fact that Grease is flammable, sure one of your allies needs to toss a torch into the mix but the result is a solid substitute for Fireball at Level 1 against 1HD creatures...


As far as retreat was concerned since we don't use minis, everything kind of exists in superposition determined by the GM...
...I remember at one point there were 8 osquips attacking our Bladesinger, despite the fact that he was flanked by the Thief and the Priest...
...To be completely fair, that was because the Bladesinger had an AC of -1...
...And since it lasted so long, we ended up using 8 of our 9 potions of Extra Healing, 1 of our potions of Healing, and the Priest's lone spell.

In order:

1. At a certain point minis are not "optional." I would say with 24 creatures in play you're at least an order of magnitude beyond viable "theater of the mind" play.
2. See number 1.
3. -1 AC in 2E at 2nd level is... bad DMing. Actively ignoring the rules to try and harm a player directly as a result of your mistake is also bad DMing.
4. What level is your Priest? How does the Priest have only 1 spell?


Even if you're not using a grid and/or ruler (I don't), just having minis let's you show the relative locations of your characters, so you can show that you're covering each other's backs and such.
Best of luck to you!

Exactly this.


It sounds worse than it is, he's usually just mildly annoying at worst.

It sounds really, really, really bad.

[Zombimode]

3. -1 AC in 2E at 2nd level is... bad DMing.

Agree with you other Points, but -1AC at Level 2 is entirely reachable for PCs: Plate + Shield is already AC2, with Dex 17 that's AC -1. Works with Banded/Splint Mail and Dex 18.

[The Random NPC]

There's an awful lot of moving pieces in play here...



I may be off but I recall Bladesinger being a Fighter Kit rather than a Fighting Style.

It's both!


I don't recall a Wizard/Bard combo, much less Wizard/Bard-Kit being within the RAW.

There's a couple of RAW legal Wizard/Bard-kits, but this one is not. My GM has a... fondness for elves and has dispensed with many of the limitations such as max racial levels and prohibited kit combos.




I'm still confused by OPs multi-class combo. Regardless though the reagent thing is... not something I'm familiar with.

It's not something I can find support for in the books.



Scattering out some gold and/or mundane weapons as well as food while running is a decent option. If they split/stop then counter-attacking their broken formation becomes an option.

There are two good level 1 Wizard spells for this situation as well.

Sleep should drop at least 4 of them, forcing a morale save per the DMG, which ought to cause several more to scatter. There's no save for Sleep for Kobolds anyway.

Grease can cause any number of them to faceplant if it's well placed. Even a gently rising hill can really mess up an attacking force with a well placed Grease spell. Second to this is the fact that Grease is flammable, sure one of your allies needs to toss a torch into the mix but the result is a solid substitute for Fireball at Level 1 against 1HD creatures...

We'll be keeping tactics such as this in mind for the future, and I'll be picking up some AOE spells as well.


In order:

1. At a certain point minis are not "optional." I would say with 24 creatures in play you're at least an order of magnitude beyond viable "theater of the mind" play.
2. See number 1.
3. -1 AC in 2E at 2nd level is... bad DMing. Actively ignoring the rules to try and harm a player directly as a result of your mistake is also bad DMing.
4. What level is your Priest? How does the Priest have only 1 spell?
1. I agree
3. I disagree that it's bad GMing, as pointed out it's pretty easy to reach -1 if you're trying. The fighting style can be bought for one weapon proficiency, gives either a +1 to attack, +1 to AC, or Parry without using up your attack (half level +1 to AC). If you spend an extra weapon proficiency, the first two options become +2. Targeting the player in question was seen as a kindness. The monsters we were facing were unlikely to be able to hit that AC but were better able to hit the rest of us. Since we were at 1st level, any hit could very well kill us outright. Since most of us have now gained a level or 2, he's decided to start targeting the rest of us. Which brings us to
4. The Priest is 1st level and may have a kit, I'm not sure.




Exactly this.
While I'd still prefer a grid, I'd have no problems with the suggestion solution.



It sounds really, really, really bad.
It really isn't. To be clear, he isn't mildly annoying all the time, just that when I have a problem with something he's done it usually only rises to the level of mildly annoying. Also, sometimes I'm annoyed by things that I shouldn't be, it's a failing on my part that I try not to hold against others.

I believe a part of the problem is his fondness for the system. I know he believes 3.5 was too coddling because it removed many of the penalties associated with magic. And to help assuage any other concerns, he is not our usual GM. He's giving our usual GM a break so he can recover from burnout.

[CE DM]

Indeed...The complete book of elves contains the (infamous?) bladesinger F/M kit, but indeed it also has bladesong fighting style. There is often confusion about them, but so be it.

AC -1 is actually not particularly rare in AD&D or classic D&D...even at L1, certainly not by L2. It is for several classes, but not for several others.
AD&D: plate mail, 18 dex. plate mail, shield, 17 dex. banded mail, +1 shield, 17 dex. shield spell, ring of protection +1, 18 dex. splinted mail, medium shield prof, +1 shield, 9 DEX. etc, etc

We played AD&D, classic D&D & various other games for almost 2 decades very heavily without ever once using a grid. Zero need for one. In 1999 or so I experimented with the grid in 2.5e (player's option: combat & tactics) & started using girds all the time with 2000's 3e D&D, but it was a nice break to ditch the grid and play old school D&D games again after a number of grid years. I like both, and certainly agree some editions "need" a grid, but AD&D (either) is not one of those.

What is lost without a grid is universally obvious positioning (at it's best, anyway, arguments still happened), distances & so forth. What is gained without a grid is a potentially much deeper game immersion, the mental experience of imagining the action, scene & locale, which grids & figures actually impair. Also: everyone in real life needing to be huddled about the grid & focusing on it. Less a board/war game & more one of the unbounded imagination.

Trust me, as my players with a decade+ of experience playing without the grid mostly HATED using one when I started to. The SAME players, after about a decade of using the grid, HATED NOT having the grid! It is a matter of experience & perspective, wanting to maintain one's competence & mastery, etc. They are equal, and it does a player good to have, learn & master both ways to play D&D. The random NPC & others aren't there as yet, but it will be a treat/new experience if/when grid/mini free play DOES pop for them (& with honest effort/time, it WILL).

the wizard/bard thing is odd, I assumed a dual class human, but that is some house ruled creation it seems.

The random NPC doesn't want to throw his DM in front of the bus, so I think it's safe to assume it's not that bad at all, not as it might sound (I had been swayed myself, but was corrected)

[MeeposFire]

There are a number of elven bard kits that exist and at least one is bard/wizard I think it was the loremaster. This DM apparently has opened it up a bit but it does exist from the complete book of bards.

The reason they question about the priest has only one spell is that unless you have really low wisdom (to the point where may have to worry about casting failure) you will get at least 1 bonus level spell so it is rare to have a priest to have only one spell even at 1st level in 2e AD&D.

Yea bladesinger has a style and a kit the kit being a fighter/mage only one and the fighting style is expensive but open to most elves. The fighting style is mostly defensive and gives AC or the ability to attack and parry at the same time (I am not sure if the book makes it clear that it is the parry that bocks one attack with an attack roll or if it allowed for the original parry which gives a large generic AC boost). You could also choose an attack bonus but I do not see that as often.

Yea the bladesinger kit is pretty infamous though I find that it is typically infamous for the wrong reason. People will talk about it being crazy overpowered but that really is not true. It is not that great but what is bad is that the drawbacks are relatively minor (more annoying really) and the biggest one is a RP based one and that is what really should make it infamous as a case study on not balancing something in the right way.

[CE DM]

Oh, I can show straight up standard multi class mage/bards; for example: planescape's MCA2 "Aasimar :mage/bard" . I just was saying what I assumed, as I know few DMs went that way...such as myself, I do not like the pairing at all, too many spells of the same type.

I'm fine with loremaster kit bards; but they have no need to attach another class (like mage) IMHO. "demi bards" (or demi rangers, etc) needed little to no special rules or twisting like a pretzel to make work, again, IMHO.

complete book of bards gives options for multi as "Elf
Mage / Minstrel
Thief /Gypsy"
&
"Half-Elf
Fighter/True * Blade * Gallant * Skald
Ranger/True * Meistersinger
MageILoremaster * Riddlemaster
Cleric/True
Druid/Meistersinger
Thief/True * Gypsy * Jongleur * Thespian"

which I can take, or more likely, leave, but yeah, house ruling on this matter is no worse then BTB as BTB is weak/poor/lame/dumb on the topic.

I know bladesong & bladesingers very well indeed.

[jojo]

AC -1 is actually not particularly rare in AD&D or classic D&D...even at L1, certainly not by L2. It is for several classes, but not for several others.
AD&D: plate mail, 18 dex. plate mail, shield, 17 dex. banded mail, +1 shield, 17 dex. shield spell, ring of protection +1, 18 dex. splinted mail, medium shield prof, +1 shield, 9 DEX. etc, etc

Mmm'kay, no.

1. Plate Mail starts at 1300gp. This is well beyond the combined resources of an entire 1st level party, even if there are six of them and they all maxed out their wealth rolls. A second level party might be able to scrape that kind of cash together if they ignore all other expenses.
2. 17's and 18's are rare outside of CRPGs in any d20 system. A classic "Sword and Board" fighter wearing plate mail and a shield isn't likely to have enough 16 plus ability scores to put them into Dexterity over, say, Constitution or Strength.
3. Shield +1? Ring of Protection +1? Level 1 parties don't and shouldn't have access to magic items, nor should level 2 parties.

I stand by what I said earlier. It sounds to me as if OP has a DM that either/or:

1. Doesn't understand the RAW.
2. Doesn't like the RAW and refuses to apply them.

[Jay R]

By the time you are ambushed and surrounded by 20 enemies, you have already lost the encounter. But how did 1/2 level monsters do this to a bunch of elves with a fourth level thief?

With your thief sneaking ahead, quietly casing out the route, you should see or hear 35 kobolds well in advance of passing half of them to be surrounded. And elves shouldn't be on the standard path where the ambush is anyway.

Ideally, a 2e party never fights anybody without identifying them and making a plan first.

[Bohandas]

The sleep spell is pretty powerful at low levels

[LibraryOgre]

Mmm'kay, no.

1. Plate Mail starts at 1300gp. This is well beyond the combined resources of an entire 1st level party, even if there are six of them and they all maxed out their wealth rolls. A second level party might be able to scrape that kind of cash together if they ignore all other expenses.
2. 17's and 18's are rare outside of CRPGs in any d20 system. A classic "Sword and Board" fighter wearing plate mail and a shield isn't likely to have enough 16 plus ability scores to put them into Dexterity over, say, Constitution or Strength.
3. Shield +1? Ring of Protection +1? Level 1 parties don't and shouldn't have access to magic items, nor should level 2 parties.

I stand by what I said earlier. It sounds to me as if OP has a DM that either/or:

1. Doesn't understand the RAW.
2. Doesn't like the RAW and refuses to apply them.

Yeah. I CAN manage a -1 AC at 1st level, using just core AD&D (splint mail is AC 4; shield makes AC 3, and Dex 18 makes AC -1), but it's a pretty severe investment of beginning resources, including attribute points.

[The Random NPC]

Mmm'kay, no.

1. Plate Mail starts at 1300gp. This is well beyond the combined resources of an entire 1st level party, even if there are six of them and they all maxed out their wealth rolls. A second level party might be able to scrape that kind of cash together if they ignore all other expenses.
2. 17's and 18's are rare outside of CRPGs in any d20 system. A classic "Sword and Board" fighter wearing plate mail and a shield isn't likely to have enough 16 plus ability scores to put them into Dexterity over, say, Constitution or Strength.
3. Shield +1? Ring of Protection +1? Level 1 parties don't and shouldn't have access to magic items, nor should level 2 parties.

I stand by what I said earlier. It sounds to me as if OP has a DM that either/or:

1. Doesn't understand the RAW.
2. Doesn't like the RAW and refuses to apply them.

I believe he's wearing chain mail, (AC 5), got lucky rolls and is a Slyvan Elf so has a Dex of 18, (AC 1), and was Bladesong with two weapon proficiencies put into it, (AC -1). He may be wearing splint mail (AC 4) and have a Dex of 17 instead. The average gold for a Warrior is 125 so either armor is not outside the realm of possiblity. Additionally, he I think he rolled 3 16's, but I wasn't paying attention.


By the time you are ambushed and surrounded by 20 enemies, you have already lost the encounter. But how did 1/2 level monsters do this to a bunch of elves with a fourth level thief?

With your thief sneaking ahead, quietly casing out the route, you should see or hear 35 kobolds well in advance of passing half of them to be surrounded. And elves shouldn't be on the standard path where the ambush is anyway.

Ideally, a 2e party never fights anybody without identifying them and making a plan first.

I think it was a part of the module we're running. You know, If the party does x they're attacked by y. If the party does z, they aren't.

[Shinigaze]

Mmm'kay, no.

1. Plate Mail starts at 1300gp. This is well beyond the combined resources of an entire 1st level party, even if there are six of them and they all maxed out their wealth rolls. A second level party might be able to scrape that kind of cash together if they ignore all other expenses.
2. 17's and 18's are rare outside of CRPGs in any d20 system. A classic "Sword and Board" fighter wearing plate mail and a shield isn't likely to have enough 16 plus ability scores to put them into Dexterity over, say, Constitution or Strength.
3. Shield +1? Ring of Protection +1? Level 1 parties don't and shouldn't have access to magic items, nor should level 2 parties.

I stand by what I said earlier. It sounds to me as if OP has a DM that either/or:

1. Doesn't understand the RAW.
2. Doesn't like the RAW and refuses to apply them.

1. Splint mail is easily affordable at lvl 1 which sets AC at 4.

2. High rolls can indeed be rare, they do happen on occasion. For instance in this case the player in question, me, got lucky and rolled a 17 and two 16s. With the sylvan elf modifiers puts dex at 17 which further reduces AC to 1.

3. You are correct, no one had access to magic items at character creation, but they aren't necessary since one-sided weapon style or bladesong style can reduce that further by -2 to a -1 AC and depending on how you feel about both styles stacking could further reduce it to -3.

I mean, these are all pretty basic things in the rulebook so it seems to me that It's YOU who either doesn't understand the RAW, or don't like it and refuse to apply them.

[MeeposFire]

I believe he's wearing chain mail, (AC 5), got lucky rolls and is a Slyvan Elf so has a Dex of 18, (AC 1), and was Bladesong with two weapon proficiencies put into it, (AC -1). He may be wearing splint mail (AC 4) and have a Dex of 17 instead. The average gold for a Warrior is 125 so either armor is not outside the realm of possiblity. Additionally, he I think he rolled 3 16's, but I wasn't paying attention.



I think it was a part of the module we're running. You know, If the party does x they're attacked by y. If the party does z, they aren't.

He must have put 3 points into bladesong since the style requires 2 slots to start with.

[MeeposFire]

Mmm'kay, no.

1. Plate Mail starts at 1300gp. This is well beyond the combined resources of an entire 1st level party, even if there are six of them and they all maxed out their wealth rolls. A second level party might be able to scrape that kind of cash together if they ignore all other expenses.
2. 17's and 18's are rare outside of CRPGs in any d20 system. A classic "Sword and Board" fighter wearing plate mail and a shield isn't likely to have enough 16 plus ability scores to put them into Dexterity over, say, Constitution or Strength.
3. Shield +1? Ring of Protection +1? Level 1 parties don't and shouldn't have access to magic items, nor should level 2 parties.

I stand by what I said earlier. It sounds to me as if OP has a DM that either/or:

1. Doesn't understand the RAW.
2. Doesn't like the RAW and refuses to apply them.

Plate mail in my 2e AD&D PHB costs 600 GP. Still more than a standard 1st level character would have but less than half your stated minimum.

Honestly I would put that 16 in dex or con before strength. Strength is number four on my list of stats to have high on my 2e fighters with the lone exception being if you roll an 18 since that is the only time you get something. Actually I really like high intelligence on my 2e fighters because extra proficiencies are pretty powerful.

You can get -1 AC without those items or a 17 or higher dex. Splint mail is pretty standard at AC 4 and if you invest in bladesinger style and one handed style you (total of 5 slots 6 if you count the slot spent on a weapon itself) and a dex of 15+ you will have an AC of -1 or better. 6 weapon slots is a lot and personally it is not the way I would go but it is 100% doable if you have a 12 int (+2 proficiencies which warriors can spend on weapon and weapon style prof) which is not much to ask as that is within the range of the more common rolls of the stat dice.

Expensive and in the long run not as good as sword and shield in most cases but hey it is stylish.

[CE DM]

costs of plate mail armor in old school D&D games
1e 400 gp
2e 600 gp
B/X 60gp:smallbiggrin:
splint (AC 4) is a mere 80gp in AD&D

"high" attributes weren't rare, although 2e made noises about it, so some 2e (only) players probably experienced no bonus characters (well, depending on when they got into 2e) & classic D&D players definitely had lower scores (but bonuses as good or better anyway)

2e introduced ways to improved AC that 1e didn't have, too, and some are obviously in play: 1 handed, Spanish or bladesong style specialty, for examples. shield proficiency (for another 1-3 places), and so forth.

But the key point is that these guys aren't level one anymore. While 2e games sometimes cut the $ greatly compared to 1e or classic, as XP was (or could be) disconnected to loot, most every heavy armor character could have plate mail by L2, L3 at the worst. They might have +1 chain, or even +1 platemail instead, but what of it?

I'll roll up a character at L1 though & illustrate just how easy it is once more (2e AD&D)
S 12 D 17 C 17 I 12 W 9 CH 11
hmm...kits. warriors & priests of the realms pg 38-40, warrior of the savage north: Mirabar.
"Mirabar
Mirabar has a reputation as being the mining center of the Sword Coast. Splendid gems, intricately-clever metalwork, and forge bars of the purest metals comes from Mirabar. Unfortunately, some consider the terrain to be ruined by excessive mining. Indeed, the landscape is pockmarked with mines, quarries, and other scars of industry.
Mirabar’s population is a mixture of humans and dwarves, and they enjoy a high degree of cooperation and harmony in their mining trades.

Warriors of Mirabar are practically walking advertisements for their home. They favor any sort of metal armor, most often tastefully decorated with gems and semi-precious stones. Mirabar warriors almost always carry a sword of some sort as their primary weapon. The exceptions to this are the dwarven warriors of Mirabar, who favor hammers and battle axes.
In concession to their cold climate, warriors of Mirabar wear furs and fur cloaks that they have imported from other regions. These, too, are decorated with gemencrusted clasps.
Special Advantages
Coming from a mining and forging area has advantages. Metal armor (chain, plate, splint, scale) costs 20% less than normal, as do metal shields, helms, and melee weapons.
Mirabaran warriors can choose one of the following nonweapon proficiencies for free: armorer, blacksmithing, gem cutting, language—Dwarvish, mining, or weaponsmithing."
(all of these sorts also get survival as a bonus NWP, presumablely cold)
"Special Disadvantages
All warriors of Mirabar are either humans, dwarves, or gnomes. No other races can be chosen. All warriors must have a minimum Constitution of 12, since a hearty physique needed to survive in the deep mines of the Savage Frontier.
Due to their focus on the mining trades, many natives of Mirabar, including the warriors, are unfamiliar with woodlands lore. Thus, warriors of Mirabar cannot start out with any of the following nonweapon proficiencies: animal lore, hunting, set snares, and tracking. Note that these nonweapon proficiencies can be picked up later in their careers.
Some NPCs that protect or worship nature are less than impressed with Mirabar’s haphazard mining tearing up the land. All reactions with such NPCs are penalized at -2 when dealing with such folk."
lets make him(or her) a dwarf
now, since: "Geographical kits are usable by any warrior class (fighter, ranger, paladin), and in conjunction with kits found in the Complete Fighter’s Handbook. Dungeon Masters must use discretion, however, as some Fighter’s Handbook kits are inappropriate for Realms warriors. For instance, it is certainly possible to have a Sembian Swashbuckler, but it is not possible to have a desert-dwelling Anauroch Pirate, or a Waterdhavian Barbarian due to kit and setting specifics."
Let's make him (or her) an "Axe for Hire", whether they are a member of the axes of Mirabar militia will depend on the campaign (I will not use the half $ for arms)
I'll be brief on this
"Bonus Nonweapon Proficiencies: Endurance, Local Dwarf History, Local History.
Equipment: An Axe for Hire may spend his starting money on whatever arms, armor, and equipment he can afford. When he is created, if it is agreed that he is part of a military force with specific equipment requirements, he is required to buy that equipment, but at half the price.
Special Benefits Fighters receive one free weapon specialization (a hand or missile weapon). It must be one commonly associated with dwarves.
When employed, he never pays for his own upkeep. Rooms at inns, food and drink are all supplied by his employer.
Special Hindrances: Dwarves are clannish folk who distrust anyone with an independent attitude. When reacting with other dwarves in any situation other than military, an Axe for Hire suffers a -3 reaction penalty.
In addition, an Axe for Hire who is part of a military force is subject to the discipline and dictates of its commander. He is no longer free to come and go as he pleases. He is further restricted by the contract he has signed with his employer." Etc, etc, but we aren't really bothered with this/it's probably N/A.
start $ was standard, 5d4x10; I got 150 gp.

Helga Diamondtooth of Mirabar
female dwarf(shield) fighter L1 HP 14 N(LG tendency) AC -3/1/4:smallamused:
S 12 D 17 C 18 I 12 W 9 CH 10
WP War hammer sp (+1+2 3/2 att: bonus profs), Axes, picks & hammers (br group +2 slots), weapon & shield style specialist, medium shield, Hand/throwing axe sp (+1+2 3/2 att +1 slot/int)
NWP Endurance, Local Dwarf History(12-), Local History(10-), Dwarf Runes(14-), Gem Cutting(17-), Survival(cold, 12-) (Bonus); ambidexterous, heraldry (12-), appraising (15-), dancing(17-), rope use (17-)

splinted mail armor, medium shield, basinet, war hammer, 2 throwing axes
(90+7+8+2+2).8=87.2 gp of 150. 62.8 gp left for gear, gem cutter tools & from the description, bling.

nice no penalty 2WC with a shield bash or block for the offhand while retaining it's AC bonus. Obviously looking to one day find a dwarven thrower, axe of hurling, and/or the G/G/H combo of ultimate doom. wp slots for the future would be not too important, but thowing style specialty, some sort of dagger or knife (everyone needs one, but perhaps even WS in one) or maybe more WS within the axe/pick/hammer group. To max combat a bit more, she could have added the dagger to begin with, but this was more about AC, after all...and all of it worked without any kit at all (4 slots: WS in a weapon, shield style, shield prof):smallcool:

AC -1 is easy in 2e. sorry. :smallwink:


Mmm'kay, no.

1. Plate Mail starts at 1300gp. This is well beyond the combined resources of an entire 1st level party, even if there are six of them and they all maxed out their wealth rolls. A second level party might be able to scrape that kind of cash together if they ignore all other expenses.
2. 17's and 18's are rare outside of CRPGs in any d20 system. A classic "Sword and Board" fighter wearing plate mail and a shield isn't likely to have enough 16 plus ability scores to put them into Dexterity over, say, Constitution or Strength.
3. Shield +1? Ring of Protection +1? Level 1 parties don't and shouldn't have access to magic items, nor should level 2 parties.

I stand by what I said earlier. It sounds to me as if OP has a DM that either/or:

1. Doesn't understand the RAW.
2. Doesn't like the RAW and refuses to apply them.

rebuttal/fact check above

as to magic items, let's look at some of the old school L1-3 adventure modules, protective/AC items only

a popular starter is U1 the sinister secret of saltmarsh
2 +1 rings of protection
+1 plate mail (human size)
...in the first half. another +1 ring of protection in the second half.

the always popular B2 keep on the borderlands (despite being for B/X):
ignoring the keep we might find
+1 ring of protection
2 +1 shields
2 suits of +1 plate mail (human, or optionally elf- sized, human -sized)
2 amulets of protection from "good" (actually, vs anyone of different alignment than the wearer wearer gains -1 AC & +1 save bonuses)

no? how about T1 village of Hommlet (the start of the temple of elemental evil)?
only taking the moathouse, we find:
+1 plate mail (human sized)

maybe N1 against the cult of the reptile god?
sticking only to cultists & monster treasures we see:
+1 plate mail (human sized)
2 +1 shields
+1 leather armor (human sized)
+2 chain mail (human sized)
+1 ring of protection

AD&D & classic D&D simply are not like 3e onward in regards to magical loot, gear & $. Or, you could argue with the ghost of Gary Gygax if you wish, about access to magic items. :smallwink:

[opaopajr]

All of these:


[...] Honestly tactics are your best bet. You need to fight in suh a way to reduce the number of attacks getting to you and keep your attacks up. Bottling them up somewhere can be effective though kobolds tend to be trappers so this may not be an option and they may do it to you instead. Ranged attacks can be good if you can get them (bows with their increased ROF will help a lot so long as you can keep it going). AOE would help but your wizard probaby lacks good options so you will have to go to more mundame methods like flaming oil. Leading the kobolds into an area drenched and oil and lighting it or instance can kill a bunch at a time which is what you may need but once again may not be easy to pull off.


[...]
But, really, y'all're outnumbered 5:1. At low levels, that's going to tear you up unless you have something like a conga line of death going on.


Yep. Run away. If you've got a spell that can distract or daze them, use it. Toss down treasure and hope they aren't all bloodthirsty enough to ignore it, Toss some food in case they're hungry and looking at you as dinner.


I second the proposal to run away and fight another day, or at least a few rounds later. Kobolds only have movement 6, so you should have had no trouble getting clear. Ideally, you'll also be able to conduct a fighting retreat, cutting down the closest pursuers as they get near and then retreating when the main body closes with you. If you have access to bows, this becomes easier, since you can either fire on the move, or put some distance between you and the kobolds and then shoot them down when they get within range.

Morale is another important factor in AD&D. The DMG suggests roleplaying morale as the best choice, but when faced with large numbers of foes, I definitely prefer dicing for morale. The DMG recommends making a morale check after an opponent has lost 25% of its hit points or - in the case of groups of enemies - 25% of their force. So if you had managed to kill four kobolds they would have had to make a morale check, which means rolling above 8-10 (kobold morale) on 2d10. The roll can be further modified by situational modifiers, where losing 25% of the force itself adds a -2 penalty to the kobold's morale.


By the time you are ambushed and surrounded by 20 enemies, you have already lost the encounter. But how did 1/2 level monsters do this to a bunch of elves with a fourth level thief?

With your thief sneaking ahead, quietly casing out the route, you should see or hear 35 kobolds well in advance of passing half of them to be surrounded. And elves shouldn't be on the standard path where the ambush is anyway.

Ideally, a 2e party never fights anybody without identifying them and making a plan first.

... are on point. At some point you cannot 'widgeteer' your way to comfortable nigh invulnerability. This is a feature of the game, and one of my personal hallmarks for a game well-made in my eyes.

This encounter was essentially out of your 4 man party's range, and mid-caps just made it even moreso. Your widgets at that point were irrelevant, and they should have been. God forbid this was a ranged ambush, and kobolds are a species well known for ambushes: :smallcool:

With Ambush round, likely Suprise round, and 1st round, atop 2+ ROF, you're looking at ((20 kobolds x 2+ RoF) + 2 to 3 rounds) = 80 ~ 120 attacks or more. Given 1 is Always Miss and 20 Always Hit Rule, you're looking at roughly choking 5% of 80 ~ 120 atks regardless. Higher (worse) ACs would've just made it a faster TPK.

The bigger question is How is the GM Contextualizing the PCs' Interactions and Observations of the Environment. From what I read, it has much room for improvement. And it seems there's ego issues as his default retort is "You're wrong," which will cause problems in the openness and learning from things going awry.

Kobolds can be sneaky, but it's pretty lazy to have them pop up like toast from a toaster, a la old skool video game Japanese RPGs. The majority of your characters should have had much more context already fed to them so as to make a more meaningful encounter experience. Is there any recognition of Exploration or Social elements factoring into the experience, or is it Combat Uber Alles? :smallconfused:

[The Random NPC]

So, we had another session today. Turns out, scouting does jack all. The rogue was 100 feet ahead of us when some kind of demon crow notices the party and decides to attack. I dropped the ball, and forgot I have spells, but do manage to kill one with my bow. The bladesinger killed two, while the rogue missed. I get hit twice for 4, putting me 1 away from death, so I pointed out the optional rule for negative HP. He decided against it so after considering and rejecting retreat I quaff a potion. Then I'm hit for 5, and there's only 4 birds left. I figured since any attack that hits pretty much kills these, and since two are already wounded, we should try to push through maybe survive. I do manage to kill 1, but one of the remaining 3 hits me and I'm dead, the other 2 hit the rogue and he's dead, the bladesinger mops them up. The priest's player was sick so she survived at least.

That's all good, I've been told 2e is a more brutal game, but our GM had the nerve to say we were bad at strategy because we just stand there and trade hits. Of course we do, there's no other option for us to take. If we withdraw, we're still in melee and have wasted our turn. If we run, we provoke attacks of opportunity, and since they can fly at least 100 feet in a single round, we've wasted our turn again. There's nothing for us to hide behind, and there's no way for us to gain advantage by surprising the enemy. He explicitly pointed out that our scouting didn't matter because the module says the birds notice us and attack immediately.

[opaopajr]

Oh! :smalleek: He's using AD&D 2e modules almost RAW and without much context (such as seeing crows fly or hearing them caw).

:smalltongue: First off, AD&D 2e modules are notorious for railroads and Mary Sues for a reason. They should not be played RAW, pretty much ever. Also you gotta remember, coming from AD&D 1e, the understood 'best practices' already assumed the GM will tailor stuff as needed. So GMs presumed to give context to the party so as to outsmart their environs and encounters.

There's very much an old skool aesthetic of "I don't need to spell it out for you. Try it! Do what makes sense to you!" It is akin to the "yes, until told no," vs. "no, until told yes," paradigm divide between old and new game communities.

The GM is all senses to you players' PCs. If he's Toaster Popping encounters and foisting the blame on you guys, and completely tone deaf to listening for constructive criticism, well, seems like you need an Intervention or should Walk Away. :smallsmile:

Drag him here. Us old fogeys can sort him out. :smallcool:

[johnbragg]

Yeah, he can't say on the one hand "scouting, NOPE! Book says the crow sees you, get on the railroad" and then say "You luzerz didn't use TEH SMRT TACTIX!"

One thing--IIRC, attacks of opportunity are not a thing in 2E. If you have higher movement, you can run away from it. (But it's been a while, and a younger, foolish me gave away those books, so...)

[opaopajr]

Opportunity Attacks do exist in 2e, but only if you turn and run. But often it's worth it! :smallamused: Withdraw is for an organized retreat, often for a better position, and usually where terrain or numbers can be managed. Actually, it's often useful to use Withdraw so the guy with the highest HP and or AC can be the last one left engaged to then risk turning their back and running.

But flying "ninja surprise!" opponents with apparently no range limits and superior morale seems a bit much. Crows tend to be territorial. One would presume demon crows to be the similar. Turning your back and running to any sort of safety, just like dealing with wasp or bee swarms, would be merely prudent. :smallsmile:

[Lord Torath]

I think you can freely break and run from melee if you've got a buddy in the same melee who can then keep your opponent from taking a free swipe at your backside. Been a while since I've checked out those rules, though. Fighting Withdrawal also avoids the free swipe, but you can only move at 1/3 normal speed.

This DM reminds me of my older brother. Improv is not his forte, and he liked to read directly from the module to determine what happened.

Best of luck to you! Sounds like you could really use it.

[Thrudd]

"Tactics" can be hard when you don't actually know the position of anything, like whether there's viable cover or a choke point or whether the enemies are grouped or spread out, etc. I'm thinking that in this verbal-only (theater of the mind) combat situation, your best strategy is to suggest the outcome you want for your characters, and let the DM tell you if it is possible and what your characters would need to do to accomplish that. It really is a game of asking questions- ask about anything that could reasonably help you win the combat based on the description the DM has given so far of your environment and situation. It doesn't hurt to preemptively declare how your characters position themselves while traveling and during most attacks in order to minimize confusion and cheese. You might have a prearranged formation for dealing with hordes and another for dealing with single monsters.

For instance, if birds are attacking you, ask if there is a position nearby that your character can reach where you are covered from above and/or multiple sides to restrict how many can get at you. Ask if there is an obvious route of retreat where you could screen yourselves from most of the enemy. Ask if it looks like the monsters are defending something or if they are focusing on something you are carrying. Say that your characters move onto a formation in which only one enemy can get at each character. If you have area or splash effects, declare that you use it to catch as many enemies as possible without hurting any allies.

If DM gets tired of non-stop questions, there's always minis and terrain...

[The Random NPC]

As it turns out, they were stirges so running wouldn't have mattered. That being said, he misread the attack block and had them doing 1d3+1d4 rather than 1d3 and 1d4 on subsequent turns automatically. Which doesn't help with our terrible HP rolls.

[CE DM]

It certainly doesn't help, though. :smallfrown:

a DM MUST use common sense/context when DMing; while it might be unlikely or impossible without something "extra" (invisibility, etherealness, etc), almost nothing is truly automatic. OTOH, standard human style scouting might not cut it.

I hope it's not a ravenloft module, if so then it's possible no magic could even help (according to bad writing)


So, we had another session today. Turns out, scouting does jack all. The rogue was 100 feet ahead of us when some kind of demon crow notices the party and decides to attack. I dropped the ball, and forgot I have spells, but do manage to kill one with my bow. The bladesinger killed two, while the rogue missed. I get hit twice for 4, putting me 1 away from death, so I pointed out the optional rule for negative HP. He decided against it so after considering and rejecting retreat I quaff a potion. Then I'm hit for 5, and there's only 4 birds left. I figured since any attack that hits pretty much kills these, and since two are already wounded, we should try to push through maybe survive. I do manage to kill 1, but one of the remaining 3 hits me and I'm dead, the other 2 hit the rogue and he's dead, the bladesinger mops them up. The priest's player was sick so she survived at least.

That's all good, I've been told 2e is a more brutal game, but our GM had the nerve to say we were bad at strategy because we just stand there and trade hits. Of course we do, there's no other option for us to take. If we withdraw, we're still in melee and have wasted our turn. If we run, we provoke attacks of opportunity, and since they can fly at least 100 feet in a single round, we've wasted our turn again. There's nothing for us to hide behind, and there's no way for us to gain advantage by surprising the enemy. He explicitly pointed out that our scouting didn't matter because the module says the birds notice us and attack immediately.

you messed up, he messed up, kinda a wash I guess. almost.

His insults at the end, after you & another player died off, though, are gauche. :smallyuk:

2e isn't brutal IMHO, D&D got less & less brutal over time...so 2e is in the middle. However, death at 0 is damned harsh for 2e. Few to none play(ed) it that way, but it is default PH. The DMG contains the optional rule of death at -10 HP (virtually the entire 2e game is a pile of options, it is truly D&D a la carte). This is a modified option from 1e, where it was/could be death at less than -3, but one could bleed until dying at -10). Classic D&D was death at 0 (and thus the most brutal, but all of them COULD be death at 0)

Make up some new characters, be sure to have a high/highest con score, and probably multiclass fighter/X, no more single class mages or rogues or mage/rogues. Harsh can be adapted to. If you have any say, get SLEEP (it generally will take out these LL encounters at need).

The DM screwing up damage might well justify negating the encounter IMHO, but in any case, he needs to brush up on the module & critters therein better, even if he's going to be a lunkhead regarding "the modules says" (& hopefully not).

Yes, there is "withdraw", and the predecessor to AOO's (running away/fleeing combat), which comes to 2e from 1e, but it is not true that there are no AOO's in the 3e+ sense in 2e. There ARE. They are yet another of the innumerable options of 2e AD&D. Attacks of Opportunity were INVENTED in 2e. Players option: combat & tactics to be precise. In fact, much of the book is the prototype of 3e onward combat grid system. Grid combat lovers will love it, as it's really where it all comes from(before then it was of minor effect & unnecessary). Presumably these options are NOT in effect in your current campaign.

page 13 "Attacks of Opportunity

Attacks of opportunity occur when a threatened character or creature ignores the enemy next to it or turns its back on a foe. The threatening enemy gets to make an immediate melee attack (or sequence of attacks for monsters with multiple attacks) against the threatened creature. Attacks of opportunity cannot be performed with missile weapons. This is a free attack that does not take the place of any actions the threatening creature had already planned.

A creature can't make more than one attack of opportunity against a single opponent in the course of a combat round, but if several enemies leave themselves open, the creature can make one free attack against each one.

There is a limit to the number of attacks of opportunity a single creature may make in one round. Warriors and monsters can make three attacks of opportunity plus one per five levels or Hit Dice. All other characters can make one attack of opportunity plus one per five levels. Thirty
kobolds trying to swarm past a fighter in a narrow passage will take losses, but some will still get through.

Surprised characters and monsters cannot make attacks of opportunity during the round in which they are surprised. "

:smallbiggrin: Note they are more potent pretty much overall than they will later be, even with feats & so forth (combat reflexes & high dex score) added in.

2e AD&D IS NOT inherently any more railroad-y than any other edition.

Random NPC: good luck & I hope it gets better!:smallsmile:

[Lord Torath]

2e AD&D IS NOT inherently any more railroad-y than any other edition.This is true for the game itself. The modules published during the 2E era did tend to be somewhat railroady, some more than others.

[opaopajr]

Yeah, AD&D (1e and 2e) is more art studio of options and expected experimentation of best practices than Paint-By-Numbers hand holding. And to confuse the issue more they threw an array of modules and settings presuming GMs and players would figure out what works best for their tastes, (and adjust accordingly as needed,). The biggest challenge here is gently coaxing your GM that being open to player constructive questioning and criticism is not a mortal attack on his "authoritah!" Asking him to be less dogmatic is merely trying to bring him into more accord of the products' times in which they were written. :smallsmile:

[CE DM]

Yeah, I suppose 2e TSR era modules have an infamy for railroads, but I'm not sure it's entirely deserved. I didn't use modules much by then, although I did get more than my share of them. I probably remember the better 2e modules much more than the bad, and I'm not one that thinks railroads (to a degree) are the worst thing ever/sandboxes are always good (but my own play was naturally sandbox style, so an occasional change is fine). For me, the experiences started with 1e & B/X modules; generally those NOT by Gygax & old hands. I'll "blame" Margaret Weis & Tracey Hickman for the railroad trend at TSR, and it starts in 1e (ravenloft 1&2, desert of desolation 1-3, & especially the dragonlance series, of which I liked the first ravenloft & desert series anyway!)

That said, I also thought most people used 1e & classic modules for their 2e games anyway, and dungeon magazine is probably the best source for 2e adventures. I could list good 2e modules/boxes, but most aren't L1-3, about the only one coming to mind is the night below box set. Book/part one is great fun! I suppose a fair # of 1e modules were redone as 2e, but I neither think of them as 2e, nor liked any of them as remakes. (Return to the tomb of horrors being an exception/full of new ideas/content)

I'm really quite curious exactly what 2e module is being played now...Random NPC?

[The Random NPC]

We started out with Doom of Daggerdale, and we're now playing Sword of the Dales. We're likely to continue with Return of Randel Morn and the Secret of Spiderhaunt. The Bladesinger and I have rolled up some stats for backup characters, he got 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 14 and I got 18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 13. So I'm thinking of making a Warrior with all Nonweapon Proficency sunk into Skills and Power Throwing and using small Shiruken for a 4/1 attack rate, or a Psionic.

[CE DM]

Those are some terrific scores. Sad to hear you are descending into the absurd, but perhaps you are soured on the game with reason.

I never read or played those back in the day, although I did get PDF's a some years ago. I've glanced them over, and doing so again for swords of the dales is see

a) player choices have an effect on both kobold & stirge encounters on multiple levels
b) morale, tactics & so forth are explicitly discussed in the module

so either your DM hasn't read it at all, changes/alters it to the point a module is pointless to use, or you & co simply aren't as hard put as you might think/made some less than ideal choices.

I can see how the stirge case is perhaps one the module didn't expect a solo scout, which, while annoying perhaps, still was pretty likely to get a lone scout killed (unless they were invisible or some such)

I'm not going over the whole adventure as I type this, but clearly there are numerous options within the short section I've read...certainly not a railroad, unless the players wanted to run off the opposite direction of the entire affair.

It's possible, if your group is all relatively uber, that the DM is stiffening up the opposition because he thought it might be too easy otherwise. Or, he might just stink at running it; no way to be sure.

I suggest cooling down about it & trying a character that suits the game.

[The Random NPC]

Our GM has decided to be gracious and allow us to use the -10 until death rule the one time. I've just decided to be proactive because I don't believe we'll remain alive.

[CE DM]

odd call on his part

well, good luck

drooling over those scores, I'll whip a potent PC for the game/setting you are in:
18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 13...demi human deities of the realms pgs 161-165

:smallcool:Moon Elf Cleric/Ranger of Solonor Thelandria L:1/1 XP :0/0?(+10%/+10%) HP: 10 AL:CG AC: (4)5/8 Kit: warrior of the Dales: Archendale
STR 18% DEX 17 CON 15 INT 14 WIS 17 CHR 13
WP: longbow(sp+2+2, +1+0, -1+0,-4+0, cover target), bows(tgr +1 hit), long sword(+1 hit), short sword(+1 hit), missile style sp(1/2 MV & full ROF, or full MV & 1/2 ROF, -1 AC w missile vs missile)
NWP: Religion(Elf 17-), R/W(Espruar, Common 15-), Bowyer/Fletcher(16-), Hunting(16-), Tracking(17-), Animal Lore(14-), Survival(Woodland 14-), Set Snares(16-), Camouflage(14-,sp), Trouble Sense(17- reduces surprise to a 1), Swimming(18-)
modern languages: Elven, common (no idea what your DM does, I give extras, add goblin, gnoll, hobgoblin, if so & 1 extra NWP or WP slot too)
MS 25%(13%) HiS 25%(13%) +40% w camo check
2 weapon combat at no penalty in light armor, animal empathy(auto/save vs R/S/W at -1, shifts reaction 1 step), code of conduct
major spheres: all, astral, charm, combat, creation, divination, guardian, healing, necromantic, protection, summoning
minor spheres: animal, elemental (water & earth), plant, travelers
spells: 3
GP: turn undead
90% MR vs sleep/charm; -4 surprise when alone/stealthy types/non metal armored(-2 w door); infravision 60'; find sec doors 1-3, concealed doors 1-3, auto find them on a 1
+1 hit/dam defending Archendale, -2 reactions vs other Dalemen, -1 reactions vs non Dalemen
130 gp rolled leather armor, longbow (18 str), short sword, quiver & 12 AP arrows(pile d6 +2 hit vs armor) & 12 broadhead arrows(sheaf d8), holy symbol
13 gp more in gear, max 3 gp left over:smallfrown:

[opaopajr]

Sounds like both GM and players are slipping into Adversarial Gaming. Little fun will be had beyond grudge munchkining and pixel bitching rules lawyering. You all are better off doing a hard reset of the campaign and trying again.

I suggest Levels 1s made at Method I (3d6 straight down) and no optional material turned on at the start. Keep it barebones and calm for both sides of the screen. This way you can work on the strained personal relation dynamics involved, which seems to be bleeding into play.

Also, you all need to have The Talk.

Otherwise this'll be a passive aggressive grudge match where no one wins. Seen it too often in a variety of systems. This is a people problem, not a system or module problem.

[CE DM]

I suspect you might well be correct, and agree with most of that (as much as one can know about a game from afar), but for me, I'd require being paid considerable $ in the RW to play 2e FR with "Levels 1s made at Method I (3d6 straight down) and no optional material turned on at the start.".

I'd do that in B/X, though.

Not that it matters, what those folks will or won't do does.

[Sgt_Dubie]

Fireball. Fireball is always the answer. Unless the answer is More Fireballs.

Everybody's advice about tactics, morale, and running for another day are all good advice. 2ED's play style include fights you can't win, negotiation, and running away.

That said, 2ED's play style also includes blasting, hence the aforementioned fireball. Sixth-level wizards feel like gods when they're first fireball clears out a horde of bad guys.

At one time I thought this way... until one particular adventure our party was trying to rescue a hostage from an orc tribe in the forest. Well, the resulting major forest fire we caused (in the middle of the night) when we tried to take the orcs by surprise was much more perilous than the fully intact orc band... not to mention we had some very angry druids to deal with after that incident...

[The Random NPC]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.

[thorr-kan]

At one time I thought this way... until one particular adventure our party was trying to rescue a hostage from an orc tribe in the forest. Well, the resulting major forest fire we caused (in the middle of the night) when we tried to take the orcs by surprise was much more perilous than the fully intact orc band... not to mention we had some very angry druids to deal with after that incident...
See, you missed two solutions sets here:

1. More fireballs to create a prescribed burn to serve as a fire break for the existing file.

2. Fireball the druids until they are no longer angry.

Really. It works!

(NOTE: Tongue firmly in cheek here.)

[thorr-kan]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.
That just sucks on so many levels. My condolences.

[Sgt_Dubie]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.

This does indeed suck and seems quite unnecessary... I mean it’s one thing to give you a good jolt to show what can happen when you mess with things you don’t understand... but killing half the party over downtime fooling around?


See, you missed two solutions sets here:

1. More fireballs to create a prescribed burn to serve as a fire break for the existing file.

2. Fireball the druids until they are no longer angry.

Really. It works!

(NOTE: Tongue firmly in cheek here.)

Hmmm.... fight fire with fire... I’m not sure that would work on the forest fire seeing how none of us had wildfire fighting as a non weapon proficiency... but it is kind of how we handled the druids when they wouldn’t listen to reason...

[Lord Torath]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.Wait, wait wait. It bounced off a tree?!? That's a pretty terrible call on the DM's part. What if it had been a Treant? Would it have bounced off that? Unless the answer is "Yes! Treants and all trees and tree-like creatures in my campaign are completely immune to Lightning", I call "Shenanigans!" :smallannoyed:

Did you specifically point it at a tree? Or did you just point it nebulously "away", and the DM decided it got you all? :smallmad:

[Sgt_Dubie]

Advanced D&D (2nd Edition)

Lightning Bolt
(Evocation)

Range: 40 yds. + 10 yds./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Area of Effect: Special
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3
Saving Throw: ½

Upon casting this spell, the wizard releases a powerful stroke of electrical energy that inflicts 1d6 points of damage per level of the spellcaster (maximum damage per level of 10d6) to each creature within its area of effect. A successful saving throw vs. spell reduces this damage to half (round fractions down). The bolt begins at a range and height decided by the caster and streaks outward in a direct line from the casting wizard (for example, if a 40-foot bolt was started at 180 feet from the wizard, the far end of the bolt would reach 220 feet (180 + 40). The lightning bolt may set fire to combustibles, sunder wooden doors, splinter up to a half-foot thickness of stone, and melt metals with a low melting point (lead, gold, copper, silver, bronze). Saving throws must be rolled for objects that withstand the full force of a stroke (see the fireball spell). If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it (i.e., the saving throw fails), the bolt continues. A bolt can breach 1 inch of wood or half an inch of stone per caster level, up to a maximum of 1 foot of wood or half a foot of stone.

The lightning bolt's area of effect is chosen by the spellcaster: either a forked bolt 10 feet wide and 40 feet long or a single bolt 5 feet wide and 80 feet long. If a bolt cannot reach its full length, because of an unyielding barrier (such as a stone wall), the lightning bolt rebounds from the barrier toward its caster, ending only when it reaches its full length.

For example: An 80-foot-long stroke is begun at a range of 40 feet, but it hits a stone wall at 50 feet. The bolt travels 10 feet, hits the wall, and rebounds for 70 feet back toward its creator (who is only 50 feet from the wall, and so is caught in his own lightning bolt!).

The DM might allow reflecting bolts. When this type of lightning bolt strikes a solid surface, the bolt reflects from the surface at an angle equal to the angle of incidence (like light off a mirror). A creature crossed more than once by the bolt must roll a saving throw for every time it is crossed, but it still suffers either full damage (if one saving throw is missed) or half damage (if all saving throws are made).

The material components of the spell are a bit of fur and an amber, crystal, or glass rod. [2E PHB, Appendix 3]

As I thought.... although if the tree was exceptionally big and tough(unlikely) it should have just splintered it and passed though... even using the optional angle rule... I see it unlikely that it would bounce in such a way that it would pass through the entire party before it ran out of range... I’d stop letting this guy dm.

[hamlet]

From the perspective of a hard as stone old school DM, yeah, you were boned by a bad DM call there unless there was something really special about that tree (a steel tree or something?). A lightning bolt should have blasted the tree trunk and continued on. However, it's possible that the tree was cut down and happened to fall on you, which is something I might have actually rolled for myself with the scatter chart, but I'd still give you a save to see if you could dive out of the way on time.

Not a good call.

[The Random NPC]

I pointed the bolt at a nebulous away direction, I specifically said that was just in case it was a wand of Lighting Bolt. It bounced off of multiple trees to hit everyone in the party. We were being attacked by spiders at the time, so they all died as well. I'd have been fine if the GM had me hit with the bolt as a lesson to be more careful with unidentified items, but hitting everyone was uncalled for. Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.

[MeeposFire]

I pointed the bolt at a nebulous away direction, I specifically said that was just in case it was a wand of Lighting Bolt. It bounced off of multiple trees to hit everyone in the party. We were being attacked by spiders at the time, so they all died as well. I'd have been fine if the GM had me hit with the bolt as a lesson to be more careful with unidentified items, but hitting everyone was uncalled for. Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.

Wait bounced around and hit everybody in the party? Unless you were all in a straight line that should not have happened as well. As I recall the lightning bolt spell is specific in that it bounces straight back and not at angles. If that is correct that DM really had it out for you guys.

[Lord Torath]

Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.I think this is the most important thing to take away from your experience.

Best of luck in your future gaming!


Wait bounced around and hit everybody in the party? Unless you were all in a straight line that should not have happened as well. As I recall the lightning bolt spell is specific in that it bounces straight back and not at angles. If that is correct that DM really had it out for you guys.
The DM might allow reflecting bolts. When this type of lightning bolt strikes a solid surface, the bolt reflects from the surface at an angle equal to the angle of incidence (like light off a mirror). A creature crossed more than once by the bolt must roll a saving throw for every time it is crossed, but it still suffers either full damage (if one saving throw is missed) or half damage (if all saving throws are made).So the DM can set it bouncing by the book. Doesn’t excuse what this DM did, though.

[LibraryOgre]

I pointed the bolt at a nebulous away direction, I specifically said that was just in case it was a wand of Lighting Bolt. It bounced off of multiple trees to hit everyone in the party. We were being attacked by spiders at the time, so they all died as well. I'd have been fine if the GM had me hit with the bolt as a lesson to be more careful with unidentified items, but hitting everyone was uncalled for. Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.

This is a clear case of the DM wanting to end the game, and deciding to go out on a TPK.

[Jay R]

We don't know what details or attitudes or aspects of the situation the DM was reacting to. We don't know what led to that decision.

I will not guess at somebody's motivation without hearing his side, based only on the version presented by somebody annoyed at him.

[The Random NPC]

I don't believe he was trying to end the game, but I do believe that he wouldn't have minded if the game ended.

[johnbragg]

I don't believe he was trying to end the game, but I do believe that he wouldn't have minded if the game ended.

This is a little off. His very idiosyncratic ruling was that a lightning bolt from a wand bounced off of a tree (!) and killed both of the PCs. What did he expect to happen at that point?

Upthread, you mention backup characters. But a TPK means the game is over. You might start a new game with the same people and the same module, but the DM ended the game.

[The Random NPC]

This is a little off. His very idiosyncratic ruling was that a lightning bolt from a wand bounced off of a tree (!) and killed both of the PCs. What did he expect to happen at that point?

Upthread, you mention backup characters. But a TPK means the game is over. You might start a new game with the same people and the same module, but the DM ended the game.

What I mean is that he seemed ambivalent about the game ending. If it ends, he doesn't have to GM anymore and will likely get to play. If it doesn't he gets to continue his power trip. Or that's what it seemed like to me, regardless, a different person is now running Pathfinder and I believe we're all better off for it.

[Sgt_Dubie]

‘Ok everybody... rocks fall, everybody dies. New game, I’m not DMing this one for a change...’

I know the mood lol...

[Jay R]

‘Ok everybody... rocks fall, everybody dies. New game, I’m not DMing this one for a change...’

I know the mood lol...

I do too, but I prefer some version of, "OK, you make it home with all the loot. The king gives you all noble titles and castles. Everything seems pretty peaceful now, so there's no new adventure to go on. Great job, you all win!

"Who wants to run the next game?"

But the usual ending to my games - both those I run and those I play, is, "I can't play this weekend. Something came up," several weeks in a row. I currently have a gnome illusionist trying to discover what quest he's on, a ranger trying to fix a monolith, a wizard son of a pharaoh trying to prove worthy to inherit the kingdom, a 2e elven thief wizard trying to run a county, and a mystic superhero trying to prevent the future he's seen, none of whom have played for months or years.

[CE DM]

a sad end

the idiotic bouncing bolts is a hold over from prior editions (only an option in 2e, and one best not taken, obviously), but trees could/would count as "a solid surface", at least sometimes.

Most of us aren't used to mature trees these days, or larger varieties, but they exist/would be commonplace "back then".

Still a really crappy use (& sheer BS on the whole party hit, although I've seen lightning bolts gone crazy in the balder's gate video games). A new DM sounds like a good idea.

https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Forigin als%2Fe0%2F2f%2F9f%2Fe02f9f5ba56be3dace16d9ff75ceb 6a6.jpg&sp=9841343dfffae8e0e5af132e8f360c16

https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreviews.123rf.com%2F images%2Fhanhanpeggy%2Fhanhanpeggy1104%2Fhanhanpeg gy110400025%2F9300022-huge-trees-at-ta-prohm-temple-angkor-wat-cambodia.jpg&sp=181973bed7bb0b16360f36328880961b

not saying it was that, but hey

[The Random NPC]

The forest was described as very dark, but I thought that was because of the massive spider infestation. It was so thick when we threw a dagger up it didn't come down.

[CE DM]

Well, better luck with the next DM (you perhaps?)

[The Random NPC]

Well, better luck with the next DM (you perhaps?)

It's one of the other players, he's GMed before. I don't have the patience for GMing.

[Knaight]

But the usual ending to my games - both those I run and those I play, is, "I can't play this weekend. Something came up," several weeks in a row. I currently have a gnome illusionist trying to discover what quest he's on, a ranger trying to fix a monolith, a wizard son of a pharaoh trying to prove worthy to inherit the kingdom, a 2e elven thief wizard trying to run a county, and a mystic superhero trying to prevent the future he's seen, none of whom have played for months or years.

Logistics is the primary killer of campaigns - which can manifest in a few ways, but at least for me tends to involve campaigns either moving along smoothly until getting killed by the holidays, or campaigns moving along smoothly until getting killed by the end of a semester (which can vary depending on players) and a schedule change eating the time slot.

[opaopajr]

Heh, who here is surprised? :smallamused: Called it.

I am perfectly fine with rebounding or reflecting Lightning Bolt. BUT, you explicitly were testing it out in a long space direction 'just in case it could be a Wand of Lightning Bolts'. :smallsigh: And even if it was a 10th SpellCaster lvl Wand (10d6) that's 40+100 yds, or 420 feet. Point being, somehow the bolt perfectly rebounded (ricocheted) from hitting A Tree Far Off in the Distant Fairway, back onto ALL party members, & ALL Spider enemies in a display to leave Billiard Masters in awe.

It's a joke. He's not GM material. He's a control freak, with 'respect mah authoritah' issues, who thinks he's clever.

So sorry, but expected from your previous anecdotes. Leave him to his glorious imaginary victories in his mind. :smallcool: And now you know the warning signs of "those who can't..."

[CE DM]

sounded like a thick forest to me (but maybe it wasn't).

the wand would be 6d6 pre 3e, unless specially placed or made. L6 was default for wands. There is a special tweak though, rolls of 1's become 2's. Thus they do 12-36 hp (same for fireball or even cone of cold via wand).

Still, I'd say your call was made, sadly.

[Lord Torath]

If it's a very thick forest, the trees are likely to be small in diameter, and thus not big enough to reflect a lightning bolt. If the trunks are 5-10 feet in diameter (big enough to reflect a lightning bolt), then the trees are going to be spaced far apart from each other, and its unlikely that a wand pointed nebulously "away" will hit one. And unless the DM had a map showing the exact placement of each tree trunk, and broke out a protractor and a straight edge to prove that the lightning bolt did, in fact, rebound precisely, I'm going to call this a Bad Call. While it is technically possible for a lightning bolt to rebound as the DM said, I would hazard the odds of it happening would be worse than shooting a single gnat while blindfolded in an empty barn (other than the single gnat) with a .22-caliber rifle with a single shot with a Silence 15' Radius spell centered on the rifle.

This DM has no defense.

[CE DM]

I'm not trying to give him one...everyone in a party & a group of enemies all hit by numerous rebounds in the woods sounded utterly bonkers to me immediately

[Sgt_Dubie]

Still a really crappy use (& sheer BS on the whole party hit, although I've seen lightning bolts gone crazy in the obalder's gate video games).

I’ve accidentally killed my whole party with bouncing lightning bolts in BG games a time or two... as a result of sending one off at fairly close range indoors, with narrow corridors and small rooms... I doubt the forest had a 10’ wide stone walled hall that everyone and everything was confined in...

[TrinculoLives]

How do I deal with hordes of enemies?

Narration, and not combat mechanics.

[jojo]

How do I deal with hordes of enemies?

Narration, and not combat mechanics.

That works, having a horde of hirelings is also valid.

Circling way back around though, since stuff continued to conform to my original assessments:


Plate mail in my 2e AD&D PHB costs 600 GP. Still more than a standard 1st level character would have but less than half your stated minimum...

"Platemail" from the Arms and Armor manual is 600gp. Your 2e AD&D PHB says that "Full Plate" costs 1,300 to 1,500 gp depending on the printing. It does say that Half-Plate costs 600gp, or half as much regardless of what printing you're looking at.

Feel free to check the SRD if you want.


costs of plate mail armor in old school D&D games
1e 400 gp
2e 600 gp
B/X 60gp:smallbiggrin:
splint (AC 4) is a mere 80gp in AD&D

Again, no. See above, google the SRD. Open the PHB.

The "Platemail" in the AAM actually only gives AC 3 at 600gp.

[CE DM]

The SRD doesn't help, as it isn't for those games. Sorry, but all I typed was 100% accurate. By all means, crack a book open.

[MeeposFire]

That works, having a horde of hirelings is also valid.

Circling way back around though, since stuff continued to conform to my original assessments:



"Platemail" from the Arms and Armor manual is 600gp. Your 2e AD&D PHB says that "Full Plate" costs 1,300 to 1,500 gp depending on the printing. It does say that Half-Plate costs 600gp, or half as much regardless of what printing you're looking at.

Feel free to check the SRD if you want.



Again, no. See above, google the SRD. Open the PHB.

The "Platemail" in the AAM actually only gives AC 3 at 600gp.

Look again the comment was plate mail not full plate and if you do math of the suggestions it is based on an armor of AC3 base not AC1 which is the AC for plate mail. Are you looking at a retro clone ruleset because the 2e PHB does not even list a "half plate" armor though it has bronze plate mail (AC4), plate mail (AC3), field plate (AC2), and full plate armor (AC1)? There may have been a half plate in a later book but that is not really important as the example given was "plate mail" which is found in the PHB chapter 6.

Plate mail is listed at 600GP and 50lbs. As a separate example that is different from your numbers field plate is 2000gp and full plate is listed at 4000-10,000 GP (yes it is listed as a range).

The example being used was just the AC3 plate mail and that is all you need and it is 600GP. You do not need those higher value armors to accomplish this (though obviously it makes it easier to do).

[ArcaneGlyph]

Oil+Fire
Grease Spell + Fire
Burn enough of them to cause a morale check
Fire?
Outsmart them with your bard and convert them to followers?
Pits + Stakes


All depends on what you have to bring to bare.