Calling all FATE Core players and GM's

[PhantasyPen]

Howdy y'all, I'm currently trying to design a summoning-based magic system for a FATE Core campaign. What I would like is for you all to help me figure out where my attempts are going to fall short and where they are going to be utterly broken.

The rules for this "Extra" as the rules call it are as follows:

All magic in this setting involves the summoning and binding of elemental creatures attuned to one of the five elements (Fire, Wind, Water, Stone, Plant/Life). Players will use the new "Summoning" skill to call upon these entities.
Elementals have a rating That ranges from Average(+1) to Great(+4) that represents their overall strength and the breadth of applications that they can apply their powers to.
Summoning an elemental places stress on the new "Soul" track based on the intended duration of the summoning. Summoning a creature for only a day is one stress, one week is two stress, one month is three stress, binding the creature for a full year is four stress.
Summoning an elemental adds the "[Element]-Attuned" Aspect to a player's character. While attuned to an element, the player gains a passive benefit, but the element also influences their behavior, and they cannot summon elementals from an element they aren't attuned to.
The "Soul" stress track is determined by the player's "Summoning" skill, as is the power of the beings that the player can safely summon.
Once a creature is summoned, a player may invoke the "[Element]-Attuned" to add the rating of their summoned elemental to any roll they make. For example, calling on a wind elemental to enhance a jump using Athletics or calling a fire elemental to make your weapon attacks hit harder.
Player's also have access to a stunt-chain called "Depth of the Soul" which grants the following benefits:
[**]The third time a player takes this stunt, they gain the ability to attune to two elements instead of just one, in addition to choosing between the following options:
[**]The player may increase all rolls for the "Summoning" skill by +1, or
[**]The player may increase their "Soul" track by one stress.
[**]The fourth time a player takes this stunt, they become able to fuse two or more elementals of the same element together, creating a new elemental with a rating equal to the highest rating of the summoned elementals, +1 for each additional elemental fused into the entity, to a maximum of Legendary(+8)
[**]The sixth time that the player takes this stunt, they gain the power to fuse two elementals of different elements together in order to create a new, hybrid elemental that has a total rating equal to the combined rating of both elementals, to a maximum of Legendary(+8)
Fusing elementals together has a challenge rating equal to the power of the resulting elemental.



So what do you all think? Is this more or less well-balanced? Or have I managed to completely neglect something, and have royally screwed this up?

EDIT: This version is outdated! Latest version of the rules located here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22806607&postcount=21)

[PhantasyPen]

Hmm... 24 hours later and still no response. Hopefully this means I did something right.

[Knaight]

It doesn't have any immediately glaring flaws, although I'd probably specify that stress can't recover while the elemental is still summoned. Variably sized aspect bonuses can potentially be weird as well, particularly once numbers start getting high.

Without those changes, there is potentially some weird power building. You take the stunt tree, summon an elemental for a year, heal up, summon for a year and merge, heal up, and just generally cycle this until you can throw +8 at everything covered by one element (at 4 copies of the stunt) or two elements (at 6 copies of the stunt).

[Anonymouswizard]

Sorry, I was evaluating it, but I had to do other things.

Comparing it to Storm Summoning from the Fate System Toolkit (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/119385/Fate-System-Toolkit?term=fate+system&test_epoch=0):
-Different elements, that doesn't really matter.
-Elementals are essentially rated the same, with a single skill from Average (+1) to Great (+4), or with Storm Summoning those who make a pact can summon a Superb (+5) Elemental.
-Storm Summoning doesn't inflict stress damage. If you're not needing to take a consequence to soak it it's a minor cost, so it sort of doesn't matter if you keep it or drop it.
-Storm Summoning lets the elemental act independently, which is just way better action-wise, but the passive benefits given here are incredibly powerful.
-Most of the Stunt chain is broken. A stunt that gives you an extra stress box (once) is fine. A Stunt that lets you attune to two elements is fine. A flat +1 to Summoning is highly broken (as in practice it'll be +1 to several skills pretty much all the time). The fusion abilities are broken beyond belief.


Hmm... 24 hours later and still no response. Hopefully this means I did something right.

More that there's nothing really good or bad about it. In some ways it reads like a slightly more costly and less flexible version of Storm Summoning from the Fate System Toolkit, which honestly deserves to be weakened slightly. The only massive problems are the stunt chains, although bare in mind summoning an elemental is essentially granting multiple stunts to a character. You probably want to give this a Refresh cost of at least 2, probably 3 or more.

Because the raw power here is unbelievable. All warriors will have this as either their peak skill or one just below peak, because binding a fire spirit gives an insane damage boost. Many other professions will also find summoning so useful as to pick it up.

Assuming a Warrior has a Summoning skill of Good and a Fight skill of Great it goes roughly 'try to summon Great (+4) Fire elemental, bound for a year. If you fail rest until you recover Stress and try again. You now have a base rating of Legendary (+8) when making melee attacks'.

[Knaight]

Assuming a Warrior has a Summoning skill of Good and a Fight skill of Great it goes roughly 'try to summon Great (+4) Fire elemental, bound for a year. If you fail rest until you recover Stress and try again. You now have a base rating of Legendary (+8) when making melee attacks'.

You still need to spend the FP by my reading (it takes an invoke). If you don't it's straight up broken.

[Anonymouswizard]

You still need to spend the FP by my reading (it takes an invoke). If you don't it's straight up broken.

Somehow managed to miss that.

I need to check how many free invokes you can stack, but even if it's just one then it's still broken because you can spend a FP and get two double strength invocations.

[kyoryu]

Honestly, it seems like a lot of bookwork.

If the assumption is you'll have an elemental summoned/bound at all times, I'd just call that the stunt and be done with it. More like an Extra, as there might be an aspect associated with it as well, etc.

[PhantasyPen]

Honestly, it seems like a lot of bookwork.

If the assumption is you'll have an elemental summoned/bound at all times, I'd just call that the stunt and be done with it. More like an Extra, as there might be an aspect associated with it as well, etc.

Well... this is an Extra, yes, and I actually don't make the assumption that a player would have an elemental summoned at all times, although I can see why they might. I did toy with just tying the whole thing to a stunt, but the way I thought to try and implement it felt too bland.


Somehow managed to miss that.

I need to check how many free invokes you can stack, but even if it's just one then it's still broken because you can spend a FP and get two double strength invocations.

I wasn't planning to allow any free invokes, and by my reading of the rules you can't invoke a character Aspect like this? If I made a mistake in that then I am definitely going to be fixing that mistake right away.


Sorry, I was evaluating it, but I had to do other things.

Comparing it to Storm Summoning from the Fate System Toolkit (http://drivethrurpg.com/product/119385/Fate-System-Toolkit?term=fate+system&test_epoch=0):
-Different elements, that doesn't really matter.
-Elementals are essentially rated the same, with a single skill from Average (+1) to Great (+4), or with Storm Summoning those who make a pact can summon a Superb (+5) Elemental.
-Storm Summoning doesn't inflict stress damage. If you're not needing to take a consequence to soak it it's a minor cost, so it sort of doesn't matter if you keep it or drop it.
-Storm Summoning lets the elemental act independently, which is just way better action-wise, but the passive benefits given here are incredibly powerful.
-Most of the Stunt chain is broken. A stunt that gives you an extra stress box (once) is fine. A Stunt that lets you attune to two elements is fine. A flat +1 to Summoning is highly broken (as in practice it'll be +1 to several skills pretty much all the time). The fusion abilities are broken beyond belief.



More that there's nothing really good or bad about it. In some ways it reads like a slightly more costly and less flexible version of Storm Summoning from the Fate System Toolkit, which honestly deserves to be weakened slightly. The only massive problems are the stunt chains, although bare in mind summoning an elemental is essentially granting multiple stunts to a character. You probably want to give this a Refresh cost of at least 2, probably 3 or more.

Because the raw power here is unbelievable. All warriors will have this as either their peak skill or one just below peak, because binding a fire spirit gives an insane damage boost. Many other professions will also find summoning so useful as to pick it up.

Assuming a Warrior has a Summoning skill of Good and a Fight skill of Great it goes roughly 'try to summon Great (+4) Fire elemental, bound for a year. If you fail rest until you recover Stress and try again. You now have a base rating of Legendary (+8) when making melee attacks'.

-I don't see how a +1 to your summoning skill is broken, since it only offers a bonus to your summoning rolls, not the bonus you get from the elementals.
-I do want this to be a bit different from the Storm Summoning in the toolkit, because otherwise I could just use that. Elementals are supposed to be a boost to an action, not able to take action on their own.
-The idea that the elementals can be used to enhanced anything is sort of intentional, and the idea of using elementals to make yourself better at your craft if part of the idea in the setting.
-Perhaps instead of 6 stacking stunts, I should combine the benefits into three more powerful and expensive stunts that build off one another? I'm sort of thinking of the Toughness skills in the Dresden RPG here, so that's 2 extra stress boxes and a +1 bonus in addition to the special effect each time they take it.


You still need to spend the FP by my reading (it takes an invoke). If you don't it's straight up broken.

Correct, and yeah, I figured this would get crazy if I didn't tie it to an invocation.


It doesn't have any immediately glaring flaws, although I'd probably specify that stress can't recover while the elemental is still summoned. Variably sized aspect bonuses can potentially be weird as well, particularly once numbers start getting high.

Without those changes, there is potentially some weird power building. You take the stunt tree, summon an elemental for a year, heal up, summon for a year and merge, heal up, and just generally cycle this until you can throw +8 at everything covered by one element (at 4 copies of the stunt) or two elements (at 6 copies of the stunt).

I have put some thought into not being able to clear the stress until you've dismissed the elemental, if at the end of this that's the consensus, that's what I'll do.

The trade off I see with this though, is that if you take all 6 copies of this stunt, you haven't been spending your refresh on anything else, so you're not exactly invincible, since anyone who has 6 stunts is probably armed with quite a few tricks of their own.

[Knaight]

The trade off I see with this though, is that if you take all 6 copies of this stunt, you haven't been spending your refresh on anything else, so you're not exactly invincible, since anyone who has 6 stunts is probably armed with quite a few tricks of their own.

Being able to throw +8s around easily is more powerful than any six stunts.

[PhantasyPen]

Being able to throw +8s around easily is more powerful than any six stunts.

Hmm, perhaps I'm looking at the stunts wrong then, because I would expect a set of 6 stunts like this to grant you +8s if you design them to build off one another simply by virtue of building on what your character is good at.

[kyoryu]

Hmm, perhaps I'm looking at the stunts wrong then, because I would expect a set of 6 stunts like this to grant you +8s if you design them to build off one another simply by virtue of building on what your character is good at.

Generally you won't have six stunts.

Even if you do, they should be narrow enough that it would be unlikely for all of them to apply at once.

+8 is HUGE. Like, game-breaking. I would not allow in a game I ran anybody to have a +8 bonus on top of their skills. Ever.

[PhantasyPen]

Generally you won't have six stunts.

Even if you do, they should be narrow enough that it would be unlikely for all of them to apply at once.

+8 is HUGE. Like, game-breaking. I would not allow in a game I ran anybody to have a +8 bonus on top of their skills. Ever.

I'm transferring into the general FATE system from the Dresden Files RPG, so it seems about standard for what magic does to me. In general I'm used to seeing numbers of +6 and above from Evocations.

[Anonymouswizard]

I wasn't planning to allow any free invokes, and by my reading of the rules you can't invoke a character Aspect like this? If I made a mistake in that then I am definitely going to be fixing that mistake right away.

It's been a while since I read the rules, but IIRC elementals would count as situation Aspects, which get one free invoke when you create them and you can use Create an Advantage to make more.

Actually, what makes this system better than 'elementals are generated with Create an Advantage'? There having an elemental can also be a bad thing, as people can invoke it against you.


Being able to throw +8s around easily is more powerful than any six stunts.

Except for the rare case of stacking stunts, but any GM who allows those whould know what they're getting into.


Hmm, perhaps I'm looking at the stunts wrong then, because I would expect a set of 6 stunts like this to grant you +8s if you design them to build off one another simply by virtue of building on what your character is good at.

The thing is, anybody who uses six stunts to be so focused in any other area is a bad thing. But if you focus in Summoning you get a +8 to whatever you want, or the equivalent of four invokes for free (a stunt is one invoke for free in some situations). Looking back over it, the system is so broken that nobody should actually take anything else until such bugs are fixed.

Again, why aren't bound elementals just Situation Aspects? KISS is your friend here.

EDIT: for the record, Venture City tends towards +4 for powers (although you can theoretically stack to a +16 you'll run into hyperspecialisation territory where more versatile powers influence the plot more). Dresden Files Accelerated allows insane stacking, but can also give insane numbers of stunts. Almost other first party setting forbids stacked stunts (I think the other superhero one might allow it, I wasn't into it enough to read the power rules), with the idea of 'just change the meaning of 'Good' to change the power level'.

Some third party settings, such as Wearing the Cape, allow them, but again generally for superpowers. Although there you can generally only stack Attribute increases, core stunts (such as making an inventor better at inventing or a magician better at magic), and Weapon and Armour ratings.

[PhantasyPen]

It's been a while since I read the rules, but IIRC elementals would count as situation Aspects, which get one free invoke when you create them and you can use Create an Advantage to make more.

Actually, what makes this system better than 'elementals are generated with Create an Advantage'? There having an elemental can also be a bad thing, as people can invoke it against you.



Except for the rare case of stacking stunts, but any GM who allows those whould know what they're getting into.



The thing is, anybody who uses six stunts to be so focused in any other area is a bad thing. But if you focus in Summoning you get a +8 to whatever you want, or the equivalent of four invokes for free (a stunt is one invoke for free in some situations). Looking back over it, the system is so broken that nobody should actually take anything else until such bugs are fixed.

Again, why aren't bound elementals just Situation Aspects? KISS is your friend here.
Gonna try to answer all your points in order here.


[Element]-Attuned is the Aspect, rather than the elemental itself, and yes, it can be compelled or invoked. However, I was looking at it like a character Aspect, not a situational Aspect.
To repeat my previous point, I'm coming into the general FATE system after playing the Dresden Files RPG, which has a rather extensive collection of rules for magic. I'm currently doing my best to simplify what I have when compared to that base, but ultimately, it still needs to feel like magic, if I wanted it to just be aspects and stunts I wouldn't put the effort into trying to create an Extra here.
So building up to a +8 is broken, despite it being a late-game ability that would not be available until after multiple Major Milestones, what ways would you suggest I use to downgrade it from that?

[kyoryu]

I'm transferring into the general FATE system from the Dresden Files RPG, so it seems about standard for what magic does to me. In general I'm used to seeing numbers of +6 and above from Evocations.

DFRPG is not Core. it might work in DFRPG, but I would not allow it in Core.

[Anonymouswizard]

Here's the magic, magic in Fate has to be nothing more than flavour. A wizard who throws fireballs can use shoot just as much as a warrior with a bow can.

Looking at the FST magic systems, one is spending refresh for essentially Shoot+, one is essentially stunt stuff, one is a way to create self-using aspects, one is literally the Create an Advantage action (no seriously, they even say 'this is all just using Create an Advantage), and one is a slightly complex set of rules to create a variety of one shot abilities or situation aspects.

Also, magic doesn't have to be powerful. One of my favourite 'Worlds of Adventure', Under the Table, says 'making magic alcohol is a stunt, having a magical gift is a stunt, wizards use skills and aspect permissions'. A character can cloud their location in other people's minds? Stunt. Put out fires? Aspect and maybe a stunt ('can use Will instead of X when putting out a fire'). Throw fireballs? Aspect. Teleport? Stunt for short range, generally an Aspect would allow you to make it long ranged outside of combat. Talk to machines? Aspect. Control animals with your mind? Stunt (or maybe just an Aspect, depending on the game). At no point do any of these need more than a +2 in certain situations to model them.

[kyoryu]

I'm also assuming the "passive benefit" of having the elemental bound is a die bonus? What would that bonus apply to, and what would it not apply to?

[PhantasyPen]

Here's the magic, magic in Fate has to be nothing more than flavour. A wizard who throws fireballs can use shoot just as much as a warrior with a bow can.

Looking at the FST magic systems, one is spending refresh for essentially Shoot+, one is essentially stunt stuff, one is a way to create self-using aspects, one is literally the Create an Advantage action (no seriously, they even say 'this is all just using Create an Advantage), and one is a slightly complex set of rules to create a variety of one shot abilities or situation aspects.

Also, magic doesn't have to be powerful. One of my favourite 'Worlds of Adventure', Under the Table, says 'making magic alcohol is a stunt, having a magical gift is a stunt, wizards use skills and aspect permissions'. A character can cloud their location in other people's minds? Stunt. Put out fires? Aspect and maybe a stunt ('can use Will instead of X when putting out a fire'). Throw fireballs? Aspect. Teleport? Stunt for short range, generally an Aspect would allow you to make it long ranged outside of combat. Talk to machines? Aspect. Control animals with your mind? Stunt (or maybe just an Aspect, depending on the game). At no point do any of these need more than a +2 in certain situations to model them.

The problem with this is that it just feels... wrong(?) It feels like the power is too internalized, the power is simply a part of the player, and not something drawn out of an outer source, and the systems in the FST just don't offer the options I'm trying to go for.


EDIT:
I'm also assuming the "passive benefit" of having the elemental bound is a die bonus? What would that bonus apply to, and what would it not apply to?

Actually no, "passive benefit" was supposed to be more flavor, for example attuning to water means you cannot drown, attuning to wind makes your body lighter, etc.

[Knaight]

DFRPG is not Core. it might work in DFRPG, but I would not allow it in Core.

It wouldn't work in DFRPG either. Those big bonuses you get from magic involve taking (or at least risking) stress on a per spell basis. This involves making one spell for a year then throwing +8s around willy nilly. It's broken.

[Anonymouswizard]

The problem with this is that it just feels... wrong(?) It feels like the power is too internalized, the power is simply a part of the player, and not something drawn out of an outer source, and the systems in the FST just don't offer the options I'm trying to go for.


EDIT:

Actually no, "passive benefit" was supposed to be more flavor, for example attuning to water means you cannot drown, attuning to wind makes your body lighter, etc.

Create an Advantage. It literally does everything you're trying to do. Situation Aspects can be attached to characters and move with them, can provide passive benefits (via permissions) and can be invoked for bonuses on rolls. What does your system do that's different to that beyond exact numbers and stress costs?

Fate doesn't give a darn if your power is internal or external, at the end of the day you're rolling the same skills and affecting the plot the same way. If it matters than permissions will restrict access in situations where you can access external (or internal) power.

[PhantasyPen]

It wouldn't work in DFRPG either. Those big bonuses you get from magic involve taking (or at least risking) stress on a per spell basis. This involves making one spell for a year then throwing +8s around willy nilly. It's broken.

Fair enough. Time to try the first revision then:


All magic in this setting involves the summoning and binding of elemental creatures attuned to one of the five elements (Fire, Wind, Water, Stone, Plant/Life). Players will use the new "Summoning" skill to call upon these entities.
Elementals have a rating That ranges from Average(+1) to Great(+4) that represents their overall strength and the breadth of applications that they can apply their powers to.
Summoning an elemental places stress on the new "Soul" track. Like other stress tracks, "Soul" has moderate, mild, and severe consequences, however a character cannot receive an extreme consequence on the Soul track, doing so causes the character to be automatically Taken Out. When a character summons an elemental, they take stress equal to the Rating of the elemental. This stress cannot be cleared until after the elemental has been dismissed.
Summoning an elemental adds the "[Element]-Attuned" Aspect to a player's character. While attuned to an element, the player gains a passive benefit, but the element also influences their behavior, and they cannot summon elementals from an element they are not attuned to.
The "Soul" stress track is determined by the player's "Summoning" skill, as is the power of the beings that the player can safely summon.
Once a creature is summoned, a player may invoke the "[Element]-Attuned" to add the rating of their summoned elemental to any roll they make. For example, calling on a wind elemental to enhance a jump using Athletics or calling a fire elemental to make your weapon attacks hit harder.
Player's also have access to a stunt-chain called "Depth of the Soul" which grants the following benefits at an increasing Refresh Cost (-3/-5/-7):
The First time a player takes this stunt, they gain the ability to attune to two elements instead of just one, in addition to the following options:
The player may increase all rolls for the "Summoning" skill by +1
The player may increase their "Soul" track by two(2) stress.
The Second time a player takes this stunt, they become able to fuse two or more elementals of the same element together, creating a new elemental with a rating equal to the highest rating of the summoned elementals, +1 for each additional elemental fused into the entity, to a maximum of Legendary(+8)
The Third time that the player takes this stunt, they gain the power to fuse two elementals of different elements together in order to create a new, hybrid elemental that has a total rating equal to the combined rating of both elementals, to a maximum of Legendary(+8)
Fusing elementals together has a challenge rating equal to the power of the resulting elemental +2