SCAG was it worth it?

[Ivor_The_Mad]

So I recently bought SCAG and I have to say im not impressed. I mean it has some decent info but a lot of it is obsolete with Xanathars. One of the things I was disappointed about was the map of Waterdeep. I had almost no detail just the different sections of the city. the last thing i didn't like was the format was hard to navigate. I did however like the big map of Sword coast. Their was a good amount about how different thing are run. The maps are great and their is plenty of information on the locations. I also like the new options for the subraces. Does any one else have this book and how did you like it? I have not read it cover to cover yet so is their any cool information I may have missed?

[Sigreid]

Barely, for the subclasses. The rest is irrelevant to me as someone who uses a homebrew world.

[sithlordnergal]

With Xanathar's out, SCAG is really only useful for the two cantrips and the one Wizard subclass. If you're in Adventure League and you're planning to make a Soradin, then SCAG is the way to go for Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade due to Quicken Spell Smites. And the Blade Singer is a much better melee wizard then any other wizard choice available.

[Luccan]

Aren't there a few SCAG subclasses that didn't make it to Xanathar's? The dwarf barbarian and bladesinger, at least. I think those are worth it bladesinger is worth it, on top of new subrace stuff. However, unless you're playing in the Sword Coast specifically, it's not worth full price.

[Aett_Thorn]

Arcana cleric I think is worth it as well.

[Dudewithknives]

Arcana cleric I think is worth it as well.

Yeah, I loved my Variant Human Arcana Cleric with Magic Initiate: Druid as his human feat.

Captain Cantrip

[2D8HP]

I loved playing the Swashbuckler subclass, and without the SCAG I'd either have to wait a year for it to come out in Xanthar's, or go through the hassle of trying to read a PDF on my phone, and convince my DM to accept UA content, so for me it was worth it.

[Biggstick]

SCAG is very much so worth it if you're a DM or Player who wants general information about the named locations on the Sword Coast, and even a bit beyond into the areas past it.

If you're an old school DM who's been in the community for years, you might already know everything SCAG has to tell you about the Sword Coast. For those folks SCAG might not be worth it.

if you're a Player who's looking for more options, there isn't much in here compared to Volo's or Xanathar's, and I'd recommend those two books before purchasing SCAG.

Overall, as someone who gets all the hard-cover books myself, I purchased it. I would recommend it to anyone who wants more information regarding locations on the Sword Coast, a few extra Player options, more basic information regarding dieties, and some new background options.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

At the time, I'd say it was well worth it. However, if I were considering buying a copy now, I wouldn't be willing to pay full price for it given all the stuff that's a duplicate of Xanathar's.

[rooneg]

With Xanathar's out, SCAG is really only useful for the two cantrips and the one Wizard subclass. If you're in Adventure League and you're planning to make a Soradin, then SCAG is the way to go for Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade due to Quicken Spell Smites. And the Blade Singer is a much better melee wizard then any other wizard choice available.

Agreed that the SCAG cantrips are probably stronger (especially since you take them with the Draconic Bloodline archetype, so you get extra hit points), but I also like Divine Soul Sorcerer for my Sorcadin build. Twinned Healing Word and Quickened Guiding Bolt are going to be fun...

[Ivor_The_Mad]

SCAG is very much so worth it if you're a DM or Player who wants general information about the named locations on the Sword Coast, and even a bit beyond into the areas past it.

If you're an old school DM who's been in the community for years, you might already know everything SCAG has to tell you about the Sword Coast. For those folks SCAG might not be worth it.

if you're a Player who's looking for more options, there isn't much in here compared to Volo's or Xanathar's, and I'd recommend those two books before purchasing SCAG.

Overall, as someone who gets all the hard-cover books myself, I purchased it. I would recommend it to anyone who wants more information regarding locations on the Sword Coast, a few extra Player options, more basic information regarding dieties, and some new background options.

One of the problems i found with it is that a lot of the locations in it are covered in depth in SKT. There are more locations in SCAG but a lot of the stuff is obsolete

[Tanarii]

It's awesome if you play in FR and your DM doesn't mind you reading up on stuff as a player. Or if you play in AL and you want to play a character who is actually knowledgeable about the realms. Or if you just want something to read.

I wouldn't recommend buying something like SCAG if you're a player who doesn't want or isn't supposed to read the .. uh, gazateer I guess ... portion of the book. The details about various areas and countries. It's absolutely not worth buying a setting expansion just for the few player-oriented rules in it. That's even more the case now that the ones that are more generic have been released in a generic rules expansion.

[GlenSmash!]

SCAG is very much so worth it if you're a DM or Player who wants general information about the named locations on the Sword Coast, and even a bit beyond into the areas past it.

If you're an old school DM who's been in the community for years, you might already know everything SCAG has to tell you about the Sword Coast. For those folks SCAG might not be worth it.

if you're a Player who's looking for more options, there isn't much in here compared to Volo's or Xanathar's, and I'd recommend those two books before purchasing SCAG.

Overall, as someone who gets all the hard-cover books myself, I purchased it. I would recommend it to anyone who wants more information regarding locations on the Sword Coast, a few extra Player options, more basic information regarding dieties, and some new background options.

It's in a weird place as it is primarily a Lore focused book that is meant for players to inform them about the sword coast. It really succeeds at that, but that wasn't really what most players or DMs wanted.



One of the problems i found with it is that a lot of the locations in it are covered in depth in SKT. There are more locations in SCAG but a lot of the stuff is obsolete

Right, but I can't hand SKT to one of my players and say "here is what your character might know about the setting and it's various locations and cultures." I can do that with SCAG.

Of course, my players are likely to skip to the subclasses, compare them to XtGE, and ignore them.

My favorite part are the Backgrounds, not that there is much that is new there, but in that it serves as a great example of how to take an existing Background and tweak it for a narrower or setting specific concept.

I loved the variations of Soldier we got in City Watch, Knight of the Order, Mercenary Veteran, great ways to start out as a Town Guard, Arthurian Questing Knight, or Guts from Berserk.

I also like how it took the Acolyte and stripped it of it's religious devotion and an substituted a faction in Faction Agent. Fanatical devotion to a cause can be just as interesting as to a Deity.

I wish we would get about 5 of these types of Backgrounds with each Adventure Book.

Ultimate, I don't regret buying it. I wish I had paid around $15 or $20 though.

[Biggstick]

One of the problems i found with it is that a lot of the locations in it are covered in depth in SKT. There are more locations in SCAG but a lot of the stuff is obsolete

I have both, make use of both, and am 2-3 sessions away from completing my group's run through Storm King's Thunder (I'm the DM).

SCAG has more general lore and information about the locations for sure. STK has encounters, and in depth details for a few towns (Nightstone, Bryn Shannder (sp), Triboar, and Goldenfields), but the rest of the information regarding locations is really about encounters that might be run in those areas/towns/cities.

If you're a DM, i'd definitely point you towards STK as solid inspiration for what you can utilize in those places on/around the Sword Coast. If you're a Player, I don't think it's really good conduct to be reading through a campaign book like STK. Unless of course you don't ever plan on playing STK, then by all means, go for it. But for Players who want to be more knowledgeable on the Sword Coast, SCAG definitely brings a solid knowledge base to the forefront for them.

[Waterdeep Merch]

SCAG is a good introduction to playing in Forgotten Realms, and happens to have a handful of pretty good subclasses/races/cantrips that open up some great new options for players. If you were planning on running FR, SCAG is a good purchase, but not a great one. It's frankly overpriced.

If you have no desire to play in FR, it's not worth it. While the player options are good, there just isn't all that much to them. See if you can't find someone with a copy for when a player is looking for something special, but SCAG is the inferior child after Volo's and Xanathar's. Check those out first.

[Talionis]

I have a big problem with the Adventure League rule of only using two books to make characters. If this was going to be the rule then the amount of content in books should be consistent and the content in the books should not be repeated.

85% of the new player content in SCAG was in Xanathar's. Xanathar's has a lot more content than SCAG. Which very much so devalues SCAG as a resource for players. I don't have EE but I believe that some spells from EE were repeated in Xanathar.

If Xanathar's was meant as a consolidation, then it should have also added Bladesinger and the melee cantrips.

If content is going to trickle out in books like SCAG, and later be consolidated in books like Xanathar then it would be nice to know so we don't have to buy the SCAG books unless we want it for campaign purposes.

To sum up, I don't like the Adventure League rule. I don't like repeat material. And in general I want more content and more combinations.

[GlenSmash!]

SCAG is the inferior child after Volo's and Xanathar's. Check those out first.

Can it be the inferior child if it came first?

It seems to me like it was an effort in how to combine a Lore a book, and a Rules book and get players to buy it because there are more of those than DMs. As far as I can tell WotC learned quite a lot form that.

So I'd say VGtM and XGtE are direct descendants of SCAG having learned from their ancestor's mistakes.

[Biggstick]

It's in a weird place as it is primarily a Lore focused book that is meant for players to inform them about the sword coast. It really succeeds at that, but that wasn't really what most players or DMs wanted.

I think Players have so much to play with now that they don't really need anything else for the next year or two (with the release of Xanathar's). It's honestly exactly what I wanted. I'm new to D&D, in that I only started playing in November of 2014. I've only ever played 5E, and I've played any where from 2-4 games a week since then. I was thirsting for what could be considered knowledge of Forgotten Realms that didn't involve me having to dig through old setting guides, as I wasn't DM'ing quite yet. Even if I was DM'ing, I'd still have loved to gotten this amount of setting information regarding FR, as I absolutely love the setting.

I might be in the minority, but this book gave me exactly what I was looking for. If something similar were released today, I'd still hop right in there and buy it. Of course, I came from a WoW background, and paying 15 dollars a month to play isn't something that's foreign to me. I feel like Players and DM's alike in this hobby are cheap as h*** in regards to paying for official content (I can already hear people saying wait a minute! If you're one of those people, obviously I'm not talking about you). All I hear is complaints over how expensive something is, and I don't think people are truly comprehending the value of the thing they're paying for. That content that they're paying for acts as a baseline for the game they're playing, and all the hours they're playing afterwards can be attributed directly to that book. Hours during session, building characters, talking with people outside of sessions, theory-crafting on web forums with random internet people, these are all ways one gets enjoyment from the book. I've easily spent hundreds of hours utilizing information gained from the PHB and SCAG. I'm not quite there with Volo's and Xanathar's is still new. That's hundreds of hours of enjoyment, and grand total spent on those books of $200. Very much so worth it to me.


My favorite part are the Backgrounds, not that there is much that is new there, but in that it serves as a great example of how to take an existing Background and tweak it for a narrower or setting specific concept.

I loved the variations of Soldier we got in City Watch, Knight of the Order, Mercenary Veteran, great ways to start out as a Town Guard, Arthurian Questing Knight, or Guts from Berserk.

I wish we would get about 5 of these types of Backgrounds with each Adventure Book.

Yessssss! I love the backgrounds of SCAG, and I think most people overlook them! I agree that pretty much every book released should come with some additional backgrounds. Even if they're something like the Waterdhavian Noble, which is a reskinned Noble, as it adds more flavor for Players and DM's to utilize.

My personal favorite is City Watch personally. I've played two characters that were City Guards, and it definitely makes for some interesting roleplay to be on friendly terms with the Guards in the city you served in.

[2D8HP]

...My favorite part are the Backgrounds, not that there is much that is new there, but in that it serves as a great example of how to take an existing Background and tweak it for a narrower or setting specific concept....

....I wish we would get about 5 of these types of Backgrounds with each Adventure Book....


:smile:

How right you are!

The SCAG is a great clue on making "custom backgrounds".

I think my favorite Backgrounds are the Anthropologist and Archeologist in Tomb of Annihilation, though I remember that Out of the Abyss had neat player options, but I don't remember the details.

[MintyNinja]

I've found 90% of my use of SCAG, as a GM, is the full listing of Gods and Pantheons. Even in my own settings, I've been picking and pulling little things from each of them and mixing them into my own creations. The other 10% has been Class Archetypes. Admittedly, I haven't bought Xanathar's Guide yet.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Can it be the inferior child if it came first?

It seems to me like it was an effort in how to combine a Lore a book, and a Rules book and get players to buy it because there are more of those than DMs. As far as I can tell WotC learned quite a lot form that.

So I'd say VGtM and XGtE are direct descendants of SCAG having learned from their ancestor's mistakes.

They were, and they did. It's hard to stay mad at WotC for SCAG when they seemed to have learned their lesson afterwards. It still makes SCAG the weakest 5e non-adventure book, though, and for what it's worth, it's not a wholly bad book. Just an overpriced one for what it is.

[BeefGood]

Currently DMing SKT and PoTA.
No, SCAG is not worth it. The information is too far from table-useable, IMO. Also, the maps are a disappointment. Too arty. Something like IRL roadmaps/city maps would be much more useful.
I'd recommend buying any of WoTC other publications before buying SCAG. Even in a published adventure (e.g. CoS or HoTDQ) that I'm not currently running and have no plans to run, I could probably find pieces that I could adapt and use in the near future. Not so for SCAG.

[Kane0]

If you got it for world building purposes it's a good sourcebook, limited scope notwithstanding.
If you got it for character building purposes there's a small handful of items and you'd be better off with Xanathar's, especially if you're restricted to one book or the other because of AL or budget.
If you got it just because you have the cash to burn and/or you want to collect 'em all (like me), then it doesn't matter and you got it anyway.

[Tanarii]

If Xanathar's was meant as a consolidation, then it should have also added Bladesinger and the melee cantrips.Anything that firewalls off the SCAG melee cantrips as much as possible is a good thing. They're overpowered.

[Asmotherion]

SCAG was very nice at the time it came out. It had a lot of new material to provide, and new build options.

Sure, XgtE has a lot more material than SCAG, but as someone who bought the books in their chronological order I never regreted it. I also am happy to get them as a collector, as well as in order to support D&D 5e, because I think what they are doing with this eddition is amazing, and I want to encourage them to keep the good work.

SCAG is optional, but truth is, everything you buy in 5e is optional, since you can download the SRD and play 5e with Unearthed Arcana and Homebrew material without spending money at all. It's all about extra contenet that you may need as a player, and supporting WotC for providing it to you.

Scag might have been a poor choice on your part if you play on a homebrew world, and XgtE might have been a better choice, but you can still make the most of it, by taking ideas from it, as inspiration for expanding your world.

[2D8HP]

Anything that firewalls off the SCAG melee cantrips as much as possible is a good thing. They're overpowered.


It may be funny, but other than noting that they were there I didn't pay much attention to the Cantrips (what kind of player does that make me?), and when I think about it, while I made an Archeologist Background (from Tomb of Annihilation) PC, I haven't played it yet, and while I've planned to try the Gloom Stalker and/or the Scout subclasses from Xanathar's (in a campaign that I don't think the DM is going to re-start), the Swashbuckler from the SCAG is the only post PHB content I've actually used.

[Tanarii]

It may be funny, but other than noting that they were there I didn't pay much attention to the Cantrips (what kind of player does that make me?)Not an AL player? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, if the +1 rule was rescinded, or the SCAG melee cantrips were reprinted in another major source like XtGE, they'd be endemic in AL. They're treated as required on any non-Extra Attack gish build, which is an incredibly popular thing to try and build. Even many Extra Attack builds use them.

[Luccan]

Not an AL player? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, if the +1 rule was rescinded, or the SCAG melee cantrips were reprinted in another major source like XtGE, they'd be endemic in AL. They're treated as required on any non-Extra Attack gish build, which is an incredibly popular thing to try and build. Even many Extra Attack builds use them.

I thought they were popular because they were relevant to EKs that want to use an effective melee cantrip.

[Sigreid]

I thought they were popular because they were relevant to EKs that want to use an effective melee cantrip.

They also stack with sneak attack and give you an easy way to get reasonable melee damage comparable with extra attack without investing to get the extra attack.

[Tanarii]

I thought they were popular because they were relevant to EKs that want to use an effective melee cantrip.
I think you mean "universally superior to Extra Attack". That's what I mean by OP. They're always the better option to just attacking for too many classes.

Even before that, with War Magic for many EKs, using a non-melee cantrip was still the better option. But at least there were cases where it wasn't, and sometimes they'd Extra Attack instead.

[rooneg]

I think you mean "universally superior to Extra Attack". That's what I mean by OP. They're always the better option to just attacking for too many classes.

I'm sorry, that's just wrong. They're not universally better. If nothing else they're far more swingy. An extra attack based build rolls more dice and thus is less likely to just totally whiff. This is valuable both when you're fighting weaker opponents (where a single weaker hit can kill and a single booming blade will waste a bunch of damage) and when you're trying get a hit to land something like sneak attack damage. They can also better take advantage of effects that trigger on each hit (some magic weapons, hex, etc). Is it a low investment way to increase DPR? Sure. Is it 100% superior to a traditional extra attack based build? No.

[ad_hoc]

The 2 things I like the most from the SCAG:

1) Lists and descriptions of gods
2) Backgrounds

[Tanarii]

I'm sorry, that's just wrong. They're not universally better.
If you're willing to take a massive DPR hit because you're worried about overkill, go right ahead.

But sure, I'll update my statement: except in incredibly niche situations, War Magic using SCAG Cantrip + Attack > Extra Attack. So niche, it might as well be universal.

[Ganymede]

The book is still useful for all the fun lore.

For my group, with the release of Xanathar's and its reprinting of stuff from the EE guide and SCAG, I've told my players to use Xanathar's content in lieu of anything from those other two sources.

[Biggstick]

If you're willing to take a massive DPR hit because you're worried about overkill, go right ahead.

But sure, I'll update my statement: except in incredibly niche situations, War Magic using SCAG Cantrip + Attack > Extra Attack. So niche, it might as well be universal.

I mean, if you're doing Sword and Board, this might be as universally true as you say it is. I don't really want to work out the math quite on that one. But here is an easy math comparison utilizing Great Weapon Master, that assumes every attack hits (yes, I know, not the best, but its easy enough to observe).

Let's start off with assuming the characters in this first example are Human's who took GWM as their Human feat, and bumped Strength with level 4 and 6 ASI's. It's a level 7 comparison.

EK using War Magic and GWM+BB.
War Magic Bonus Action Attack: 1d12+15.
Cast a spell action, Booming Blade: 1d12+15. +1d8. (+2d8 if target moves).

Average damage = 37.5.
Average damage if target moves = 46.5.

EK using the regular Attack Action and GWM.
Attack action: 1d12+15.
2nd attack: 1d12+15.

Average damage = 33.

Very clearly, Eldritch Knight using War Magic comes out ahead. I would even go so far as to say this is typically superior as a tactic for the EK from levels 7-10. But level 11 changes things, and that third attack tips the value back towards using the Attack action versus the Cast a spell action.

EK using War Magic and GWM+BB.
War Magic Bonus Action Attack: 1d12+15.
Cast a spell action, Booming Blade: 1d12+15. +2d8. (+3d8 if target moves).

Average damage = 42.
Average damage if target moves = 55.5.

EK using the regular Attack Action and GWM.
Attack action: 1d12+15.
2nd attack: 1d12+15.
3rd attack: 1d12+15.

Average damage = 64.5.

The math here really speaks for itself.
And all that math is without even considering things like throwing PAM into the mix, which you almost assuredly could do if you're already rocking a Great Axe. That would further increase the number of times you could swing utilizing GWM, thus increasing the average damage output even more so.

The weapon cantrips are fantastic for an EK for levels 7-10. They are almost assuredly better then anything else you're considering doing, and fully utilize your action economy (as long as we can figure out where to fit in reaction attacks). I haven't even gone into effects that your character might have including things like +1 weapons or bonuses to damage based on attacks made, but those would also favor making more attacks (3 or more) versus the less (the 2 we get from utilizing EK's War Magic). But beyond level 10, three attacks with GWM (or Sharpshooter for that matter) are going to outstrip War Magic's damage output.

[Biggstick]

The book is still useful for all the fun lore.

For my group, with the release of Xanathar's and its reprinting of stuff from the EE guide and SCAG, I've told my players to use Xanathar's content in lieu of anything from those other two sources.

So you don't allow Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade? What about Oath of the Crown Paladins, Battlerager Barbarians, or Arcana Clerics? I know some of the content from SCAG got moved to Xanathar's, but not all of it did.

[Tanarii]

utilizing Great Weapon Master, GWM is also overpowered. Thanks for proving it.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Well i've gotten some great feedback and until now i had no idea that SCAG added new cantrips. Where are they in the book?

[Biggstick]

GWM is also overpowered. Thanks for proving it.

I agree that it's quite a powerful feat. But that doesn't change the fact that it's commonly picked up in many games. This means that your blanket statement of


"universally superior to Extra Attack".

They're (BB and GFB) always the better option to just attacking for too many classes.

is very much so incorrect. I've shown you the math for how and why the statement is incorrect, and refusing to acknowledge the fact that GWM or extra damage modifiers on weapons are common enough to make your statement incorrect is willful ignorance.

The use of War Magic is generally superior for an EK from levels 7-10 over most any other combination of attacks. However, once an EK is level 11 or higher, they're probably going to be better off using the standard Attack Action.

[Biggstick]

Well i've gotten some great feedback and until now i had no idea that SCAG added new cantrips. Where are they in the book?

Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade, Lightning Lure, and Sword Burst. The first two are what people go crazy for. They're on pages 142-143 of SCAG.

[Tanarii]

I agree that it's quite a powerful feat. But that doesn't change the fact that it's commonly picked up in many games. This means that your blanket statement of



is very much so incorrect.
Using OP option to prove a statement that an OP option is overpowered changes the entire attempt to disprove the statement. In fact, you validated my statement. So ... thank you for reinforcing my statement.

It takes GWM or SS, one of two broken feats, for an EK to keep up with or exceed an EK using an SCAG Cantrip with War Magic. That proves they are OP.

So far all I've got is people focusing on trying to nitpick my universal Extra Attack statement. I assume that's because the general meaning of is correct, so you're all forced to focus on nit picks.

[Mikal]

Using OP option to prove a statement that an OP option is overpowered changes the entire attempt to disprove the statement. In fact, you validated my statement. So ... thank you for reinforcing my statement.

It takes GWM or SS, one of two broken feats, for an EK to keep up with or exceed an EK using an SCAG Cantrip with War Magic. That proves they are OP.

Damage from a GWM strike is comparable with most attack cantrips, so calling GWM overpowered is a bit silly.

While GWM average damage may overtake a cantrip base damage in certain circumstances such as a third/fourth attack, it does so at several costs
1- Less AC due to lack of shield
2- Feat/ASI investment cost
3- Increased change to miss on any single attack.

GWM and SS are some of the few ways for martials to be able to keep up with the damage that a dedicated spellcaster can pump out.

Do you also call the fireball spell overpowered because it can do multiple d6s of damage to several people at once?
Do you call a rogues SA overpowered? It does similar damage as a GWM focused fighter.

The problem isn't that GWM and SS are overpowered, it's that the other fighting styles lack a similar option. TWF tries and fails since the investment and return is too high (though UA content like Brute and third party content like Blood Hunter can help with that), but sword and board's defensive boost does make that worthwhile for a defensive build, not an offensive one.

EDIT: Doing some scratch calculations show that a typical sword and boarder with duelist at level 11 will do about 35 damage on average, not counting any other effects.

A greatsword GWM user averages about 66. Personally, I think a boost of 30 damage is fair when one considers they are getting this by taking a -5 on their attack to attempt to do so, making it more likely that any one of the attacks miss, and any single missing attack will drop that average by 22, and missing two attacks will cause the average damage to be below the duelist's attack!

In addition, they're also giving up the AC bonus from the shield regardless, thus making them more vulnerable. That, combined with the fact that it costs a Feat/ASI, makes GWM more balanced than some kneejerk reactions indicate.

The same can be said on the damage for Sharpshooter, which is about 59 damage with a longbow at level 11.

Again, the odd man out if TWF as that amounts to a paltry 38 at best.

[JBPuffin]

Using OP option to prove a statement that an OP option is overpowered changes the entire attempt to disprove the statement. In fact, you validated my statement. So ... thank you for reinforcing my statement.

Does it? I think it just shows that SCAG cantrips aren't universally better than Extra Attack. They're better than making normal attacks, which is why they're universally good on Rogues, but when you can make 3 attacks with SS or GWM, it's not automatic.

Never try and say something's universally better, just as a rule. Resistance/Immunity, other build choices, GM monster strategy - there are a lot of things that can change the effectiveness of a build, so you dug yourself a hole by claiming "universally better". More often than not? Probably could make a case for more often than not, but since you didn't...better luck next time.

[Biggstick]

Doing some scratch calculations show that a typical sword and boarder with duelist at level 11 will do about 35 damage on average, not counting any other effects.

A greatsword GWM user averages about 66. Personally, I think a boost of 30 damage is fair when one considers they are getting this by taking a -5 on their attack to attempt to do so, making it more likely that any one of the attacks miss, and any single missing attack will drop that average by 22, and missing two attacks will cause the average damage to be below the duelist's attack!

In addition, they're also giving up the AC bonus from the shield regardless, thus making them more vulnerable. That, combined with the fact that it costs a Feat/ASI, makes GWM more balanced than some kneejerk reactions indicate.

The same can be said on the damage for Sharpshooter, which is about 59 damage with a longbow at level 11.

Again, the odd man out if TWF as that amounts to a paltry 38 at best.

The tradeout for going GWM versus SnB is pretty significant the higher level you get. The availability of magic Shields can change how valuable SnB is drastically. For example, a +1 Shield turns your Plate-wearing SnB PC into someone with a base 21 AC versus a base 20 AC. This only increases based on getting better and better magic items.

If you're rocking a SnB Eldritch Knight though, I feel like you should be focusing on your defensive capabilities personally. As you've pointed out, you're never going to match up to SS/GWM, and you shouldn't try to. Look to pick up Warcaster for improved reaction attacks (with BB or GFB) and the ability to cast the Shield spell with both hands occupied. Mirror Image and Misty Step should be serious considerations as spell choices for you. Sentinel/Lucky/Resilient Wisdom should all be feats on your mind. Your focus should be on standing in front of your squishy allies, and keeping them out of harm's reach. It might not be how everyone plays their SnB EK, but it's what I feel is the most efficient use of a SnB EK.

[Rowan Wolf]

I don't have EE but I believe that some spells from EE were repeated in Xanathar.

The Players Guide to Elemental Evil has the spells and other material and is free (originally from RPGdrivethru, but is also on the dmguild)

[Mikal]

The Players Guide to Elemental Evil has the spells and other material and is free (originally from RPGdrivethru, but is also on the dmguild)

Several of the spells have been modified though in Xanathar's.

[Tanarii]

Never try and say something's universally better, just as a rule. Resistance/Immunity, other build choices, GM monster strategy - there are a lot of things that can change the effectiveness of a build, so you dug yourself a hole by claiming "universally better". More often than not? Probably could make a case for more often than not, but since you didn't...better luck meet time.Yeah clearly it was a mistake to give people a target to nitpick at with unlikely edge cases and other OP options. The latter being something that reinforces my point that SCAG cantrips are OP.

[Mikal]

Yeah clearly it was a mistake to give people a target to nitpick at with unlikely edge cases and other OP options. The latter being something that reinforces my point that SCAG cantrips are OP.

In other words, you disagree with the evidence provided, so you attack it as OP to discredit it.

[Ganymede]

So you don't allow Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade? What about Oath of the Crown Paladins, Battlerager Barbarians, or Arcana Clerics? I know some of the content from SCAG got moved to Xanathar's, but not all of it did.

It sounds like you have a good handle on the situation.

[the secret fire]

The player options in SCAG aren't all that bad. There are a number of potentially interesting subclasses on offer. Many have already been listed, but I'll add Monk of the Long Death to the list, which is potentially the best tank/controller class in the game.

The SCAG attack cantrips are quite powerful, and for certain builds which rely on a single strong attack (e.g. the Arcane Trickster melee gish) they are such as significant power upgrade that it pretty much amounts to intentional nerfing for a player not to use them. So if you're playing an AT in Adventure League, SCAG is completely worth it. Other than that, if you're not taking it for one of the other interesting subclasses, SCAG may not do you much good as a player.

[sithlordnergal]

I thought they were popular because they were relevant to EKs that want to use an effective melee cantrip.

Well, they have more use then that. Because you make a weapon attack with the SCAG cantrips, you can mix any effects or abilities that happen from a weapon attack. To top it off, since they are determined by a d20 attack roll, their damage is doubled on a crt.

Rogues are able to easily stack a SCAG cantrip with their sneak attack, making them deal inital damage that is on par with or even better than an extra attack at level 5 since you can sneak attack with the cantrip. And since cantrips scale with total level, your damage is boosted further the higher level you are.

Pact of the Tome and Lore Bard were leagues ahead of their melee subclass counterparts, because now you have the versatility of the caster focused subclass mixed with the melee damage of the melee subclasses.

And as for any class that has an ability that requires you to make a melee weapon attack, these cantrips are just nuts. The best example is the Paladin. A non-multiclassed Paladin at level 5 gets a nice pair of attacks that they can smite with. A Paladin/Sorcerer wielding a longsword with the SCAG cantrips can have their extra attack and a bonus action attack that deals just as much damage as their extra attack, and can smite with all three attacks. Toss Haste on that and your paladin now has 4 attacks, all of which you can smite with.

And that's really only looking at the level 5-10 version of the cantrips. At level 11 your damage is boosted by 1d8. Meaning now your single cantrip does 2d8+weapon damage. If you use a 1d8 damaging weapon, you're doing more damage then your extra attack.

[ZorroGames]

So I recently bought SCAG and I have to say im not impressed. I mean it has some decent info but a lot of it is obsolete with Xanathars. One of the things I was disappointed about was the map of Waterdeep. I had almost no detail just the different sections of the city. the last thing i didn't like was the format was hard to navigate. I did however like the big map of Sword coast. Their was a good amount about how different thing are run. The maps are great and their is plenty of information on the locations. I also like the new options for the subraces. Does any one else have this book and how did you like it? I have not read it cover to cover yet so is their any cool information I may have missed?

For me, Arcana Cleric made it all worthwhile. The dwarf info for AL roleplay purposes was frosting on the cake, swashbuckler is cool though I doubt I shall play one, Archfey patrons was useful, and BB/GFB might be on the map for a Wizard. Like a couple or five of the backgrounds. Gods were okay.

So, in short, yes.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade, Lightning Lure, and Sword Burst. The first two are what people go crazy for. They're on pages 142-143 of SCAG.

Thank you ill check them out.

[Armok]

To me it was definitely worth it, though perhaps not for the reasons others might look for. See, to me the SCAG was the perfect format and amount of content for me to emulate when writing up my own campaign setting. I used it extensively as an example of what sorts of information I should include about my realm, and how much I should write for my campaign guide I'd be giving to my players. Its section on the gods was especially helpful in formulating my own pantheon. It also clued me in to thinking about how each class fit into my milleau, and how to put my own spin on those places to make them feel unique to it.

I honestly think that my setting wouldn't be as in-depth as it is without having used the SCAG as a reference for what I should have strove for. Also, I really dig some of the additional backgrounds. So for my purposes it was totally worth it!

[bc56]

I mean, if you're doing Sword and Board, this might be as universally true as you say it is. I don't really want to work out the math quite on that one. But here is an easy math comparison utilizing Great Weapon Master, that assumes every attack hits (yes, I know, not the best, but its easy enough to observe).

Let's start off with assuming the characters in this first example are Human's who took GWM as their Human feat, and bumped Strength with level 4 and 6 ASI's. It's a level 7 comparison.

EK using War Magic and GWM+BB.
War Magic Bonus Action Attack: 1d12+15.
Cast a spell action, Booming Blade: 1d12+15. +1d8. (+2d8 if target moves).

Average damage = 37.5.
Average damage if target moves = 46.5.

EK using the regular Attack Action and GWM.
Attack action: 1d12+15.
2nd attack: 1d12+15.

Average damage = 33.

Very clearly, Eldritch Knight using War Magic comes out ahead. I would even go so far as to say this is typically superior as a tactic for the EK from levels 7-10. But level 11 changes things, and that third attack tips the value back towards using the Attack action versus the Cast a spell action.

EK using War Magic and GWM+BB.
War Magic Bonus Action Attack: 1d12+15.
Cast a spell action, Booming Blade: 1d12+15. +2d8. (+3d8 if target moves).

Average damage = 42.
Average damage if target moves = 55.5.

EK using the regular Attack Action and GWM.
Attack action: 1d12+15.
2nd attack: 1d12+15.
3rd attack: 1d12+15.

Average damage = 64.5.

The math here really speaks for itself.
And all that math is without even considering things like throwing PAM into the mix, which you almost assuredly could do if you're already rocking a Great Axe. That would further increase the number of times you could swing utilizing GWM, thus increasing the average damage output even more so.

The weapon cantrips are fantastic for an EK for levels 7-10. They are almost assuredly better then anything else you're considering doing, and fully utilize your action economy (as long as we can figure out where to fit in reaction attacks). I haven't even gone into effects that your character might have including things like +1 weapons or bonuses to damage based on attacks made, but those would also favor making more attacks (3 or more) versus the less (the 2 we get from utilizing EK's War Magic). But beyond level 10, three attacks with GWM (or Sharpshooter for that matter) are going to outstrip War Magic's damage output.

However, with a damaging cantrip, you only have to hit once when you roll to hit. You do not have a 100% chance of hitting on each attack.

Although the odds of whiffing are higher on the cantrip attack, the odds of not dealing average damage are higher on the multiattack because you may miss on 1 or 2 attacks.

[Tanarii]

I used it extensively as an example of what sorts of information I should include about my realm, and how much I should write for my campaign guide I'd be giving to my players.Egads! You must have some very special players. I can barely get them to read a 2 page session zero doc, mostly filled with character building information.

[Biggstick]

However, with a damaging cantrip, you only have to hit once when you roll to hit. You do not have a 100% chance of hitting on each attack.

Although the odds of whiffing are higher on the cantrip attack, the odds of not dealing average damage are higher on the multiattack because you may miss on 1 or 2 attacks.

I purposefully didn't use hit ratios when making calculations, as I didn't want to dive into that scenario. However, making more attacks means you're more likely to at least have some sort of damage come through.

The argument you're making favors those who make more attacks, as the EK using War Magic is MUCH more dependent on the single Cantrip attack landing for their primary damage output, compared to the Three-Attack-based Fighter who has multiple chances to deal at least some damage. Anyone who's done the math (check out Kryx's damage sheets) can tell you that if you start factoring in hit percentages, more attacks will net you an average of a higher damage output when accounting for GWM and SS in the damage calculations.

[UnderwaterAir]

For Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade alone SCAG is worth it. :)

[MeeposFire]

Honestly the big reason the SCAG cantrips are seen as so good is not just the extra power but because they are so easy to acquire.

If I could get extra attack on a rogue without having to multiclass out by either using a common powerful subclass, a common set of races, or a feat then I would do that over taking a SCAG cantrip. However that is not the case you can get extra attack by investing 5+ levels in classes that are not rogue or I can spend 1 feat, race, or subclass choice and use a cantrip that keeps me very swingy and in many cases not quite as nice as using my attack action but it is close and it is a much easier investment that also lets me stay in my favored class.

[Dudewithknives]

Personally my top 3 things from the SCAG were:

Arcana Cleric: that is some kind of nice. Take that and variant human feat Magic Initiate Druid. All the good cantrips.

Battlerager: mountain dwarf with squat nimbleness. Gold.

Swashbuckler: always loved the duelist types in every edition, this is as close as 5e gets which is pretty sad.

[DanyBallon]

Being a lng time D&D player and DM, I always disliked Forgotten Realms, because there was too much lore about it. SCAG is what converted me to the setting as it covers only a specific region of the Realms and each locations are detailed vaguely enough so players have a better feel of the world without knowing too much (very few people travel as much as advendturers, and prior to their adventuring career most character only heard rumors from Waterdeep, Mirabar, Neverwinter, etc.). The vagueness also allow a DM to modify a few aspects of the setting woithout having players telling him that it’s not what is written in the book. Just for that I think it makes a great setting book.