Charming a Summoned Creature

[Avonar]

So this came up last night and I wanted to get opinions on it.

My Warlock summoned a demon to fight. While the demon was still under my control the enemy wizard cast Suggestion on it.

The DM's thinking was that the Suggestion overrode my Summon spell, mine was that the demon has no free will while under my control so the Suggestion would be null unless I lost control.

In the end it was irrelevant since he forgot the wizard doesn't speak Abyssal.

How do you guys reckon charming a summoned/controlled creature should work?

[Unoriginal]

Depends which spell you used for the summon, but normaly of a creature is under a specific condition, trying to apply the same condition does nothing. Same way a creature can't have the Poisoned condition twice.

Usually, though, Demons do have their free will, they just can't act against your orders.

So, if you ordered a demon with a spear to do an attack, but it got Suggested to drop its weapon, your DM could rule out it did both and attacked with its fist, for exemple.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

At my table I typically rule that a creature that is controlled (unless by non magic means) cant be charmed by someone else. If i had a big bad and he had some wolves under his magical control they would be immune to being charmed.

[Tanarii]

The creature stops, vibrates under the conflicting imperatives, then explodes. Lethal feedback makes both casters pass out.

Clearly it's the only reasonable way to adjudicate this as a DM. :smallbiggrin:

[No brains]

I think knowing which spell you used to summon the demon, which demon it was, what your orders were, and what the new Suggestion was are all vital clues that we need to resolve this. There are cases where the DM's tactic would work and some where it would not.

I assume because you said you were a warlock that you're using the Summon Greater/Lesser Demon spells from Xanathar? Did you keep concentration, use the extra component, and did the demon fail its charisma saves? All important.

[Avonar]

I think knowing which spell you used to summon the demon, which demon it was, what your orders were, and what the new Suggestion was are all vital clues that we need to resolve this. There are cases where the DM's tactic would work and some where it would not.

I assume because you said you were a warlock that you're using the Summon Greater/Lesser Demon spells from Xanathar? Did you keep concentration, use the extra component, and did the demon fail its charisma saves? All important.

Yes, I was using Summon Greater Demon to summon a Chasme. It was still definitely under my control, I still had concentration, I made the blood circle and I had commanded it to keep attacking the worm we were up against.

[Joe dirt]

I would rule, yes. A charm spell can work against a summoned monster. The monster doesnt gain some anti enchantment field like u think it does. In fact most summoned monsters hate being controlled so they might welcome a charm that helps them to attack their slaver(ie the one that performed the summons)

[XmonkTad]

I was using Summon Greater Demon to summon a Chasme. It was still definitely under my control, I still had concentration, I made the blood circle and I had commanded it to keep attacking the worm we were up against.

This sounds to me like you still had control over the demon. While the enemy wizard is certainly free to give it a suggestion, you're overriding the will of the demon in the first place. Even if it wanted to obey the suggestion it couldn't. The spell is pretty explicit when it comes to your control ("telling it what it must do" and " On a successful save, your control of the demon ends"). The enemy wizard could make the suggestion as reasonable and as true to the demons nature and wishes as possible, as long as it hasn't made he Cha save, it has to do what you tell it.

The demon already wants to rip you apart, no way a simple suggestion could be what's required to break your control. In fact, I can't think of anything that would break your control over it (ie. if the wizard had charmed the demon, you could still order it to attack the wizard).

[Asmotherion]

So this came up last night and I wanted to get opinions on it.

My Warlock summoned a demon to fight. While the demon was still under my control the enemy wizard cast Suggestion on it.

The DM's thinking was that the Suggestion overrode my Summon spell, mine was that the demon has no free will while under my control so the Suggestion would be null unless I lost control.

In the end it was irrelevant since he forgot the wizard doesn't speak Abyssal.

How do you guys reckon charming a summoned/controlled creature should work?

First, your Demon is not Charmed by you (I suppose you used the Summon Greater Demon spell?), you just have limited control on it, and force it to act on you commands, which it can break if it succeeds on a Charisma Saving Throw. That practically means it is compelled by the spell to act against it's will "for some reason".

A suggestion spell will be perfectly fine in this situation, if the suggestion is accurate. The DM knows the Demon's Agenda, and knows if what was suggested made sence for the Demon to turn against you. That said, it does not mean that, because the Demon would want to do what was suggested, that it could do so.

I personally would give it advantage on it's Save to end your Control, unless you used it's True Name.

However, the Language Barier also makes sence, since Telepathy only takes place when the Demon makes a consious effort to communicate. Thus, since the Demon did not try to make contact with the Wizard's mind at the time he was casting the Spell, and they did not share a language, the Demon's mind dismissed the suggestion as unprocessable.