Breaking find steed

[jjadned]

So at 6th level I pick up find steed with magic secrets (lore bard) and then once I get 9th lvl spells can I true polymorph my trusty warhorse into a object and then into a CR-9 and still have all the advantages of find steed. If the CR-9 dies, the spirt of the CR-9 (formally horse) will go back to where you would dismiss it.

My questions are

Can I turn polymorph it and still keep the bond and such.

And when it dies and I re-summon it, it comes back as my warhorse or a CR-9 (prob warhorse cause it just changes its body not its spirit.)

[JackPhoenix]

Once you turn it into object permanently, it's no longer your steed. It's an object.

[Davrix]

Ok one

I hate things like this because your just trying to give the DM a hard time and yea know what this is why I hate having trolly bards at my table. I'm all for a good creatie laugh once in awhile but then they try to pull crap like this and im like why, just why. But this is my personal pet peeve and opnion so I will leave it at just at oken *shakes fist* Dammn bard.

Second

NO and yes but have fun wasting that lv 9 spell


Creature into Creature: If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or its level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating). The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.


So not gonna happen because even if you take a horse stat block you cant make it any higher then its own CR as it doesn't have a lv

and I'll be honest even if it DID work I'd pull out my favorite table and roll on it. It's called the players are trying to mix magic for a stupid reason to break or exploit things and oh look bad things happen when you try to mix spells with one another that you shouldn't

[jjadned]

Creature into Object: If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form. The creature's Statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form.

So it is now a *huge* rock, it has no memory of time in this form implying it remembers everything before the poly-morph and it keeps all its personalities and such.

Object into Creature: You can turn an object into any kind of creature, as long as the creature's size is no larger than the object's size and the creature's challenge rating is 9 or lower. The creature is friendly to you and your companions. It acts on each of your turns. You decide what action it takes and how it moves. The DM has the creature's Statistics and resolves all of its actions and Movement.

It would be a creature of CR-9 with the personality of my horse and such. Any reason it wouldn't?

Thats what im asking.

[jjadned]

Ok one

I hate things like this because your just trying to give the DM a hard time and yea know what this is why I hate having trolly bards at my table. I'm all for a good creatie laugh once in awhile but then they try to pull crap like this and im like why, just why. But this is my personal pet peeve and opnion so I will leave it at just at oken *shakes fist* Dammn bard.

I am just brainstorming, I have never played in a campaign long enough to get past level 8. Mostly because people have just stopped showing up, so I started to DM. I rarely play anymore but I wanted to ask the question as a player because as a DM I can say yes or no.

Second

NO and yes but have fun wasting that lv 9 spell




So not gonna happen because even if you take a horse stat block you cant make it any higher then its own CR as it doesn't have a lvl

When you do Creature to creature but if you go from Creature to object to creature. there are no restrictions other than size and CR

and I'll be honest even if it DID work I'd pull out my favorite table and roll on it. It's called the players are trying to mix magic for a stupid reason to break or exploit things and oh look bad things happen when you try to mix spells with one another that you shouldn't

Please link below and add a CHA abuse table to it also :)

Responded in the quote box in bold

[LeonBH]

No, this doesn't work by RAW. When you turn your steed into an object permanently, they are considered under the effect of True Polymorph until dispelled. If you cast True Polymorph on it again, you run into an issue of game effects with the same name not stacking, as discussed in the DMG Errata.

Only one True Polymorph can be active on the steed at any time. Either it becomes an object, or it becomes another creature of the appropriate CR (but not CR 9). It cannot become a stone and also use that stone as base to become a CR 9 creature.

You can get around this, though, by using Flesh to Stone. Turn the steed into stone, and then use True Polymorph to turn it into a CR 9 creature. Voila, no RAW violation.

Just be wary that any Dispel Magic can instantly break both spells. Even if the effects become "permanent," they are still considered under the effect of the spell, and they are still subject to antimagic fields and Dispel Magic.

If the True Polymorph is dispelled (DC 19), your CR 9 creature will turn into a stone steed. But if the Flesh to Stone is dispelled (DC 16), your True Polymorph will unravel as its Object to Creature function has now selected an invalid target.

Needless to say, if both spells are dispelled, you end up with your original steed. And if you cast Find Steed again, you will lose your bond to your CR 9 steed as the Find Steed spell specifies you can only have one bond active at a time.

EDIT: Nope, Flesh to Stone won't do the trick, since a petrified creature is not an object.

[No brains]

Well of course you are going to need to break whatever you use as a steed. Otherwise you'll get bucked. :smallsmile:

I don't think re-summoning the mount in its new form will work because re-casting the spell undoes any conditions on the creature. While 'True Polymorphed' is not a listed condition, it is a major change that a player might want undone by a re-casting of the spell. The spell is also responsible for shaping the creature's form, so it probably can only bring it back in a predetermined number of forms.

I think a DM might have a case that True Polymorph overrides the telepathic bond that a caster has with the steed because there are separate rules for commanding a creature transformed from an object. That could honestly go either way.

These aren't hard RAW answers, but I think they fit the space that the DM is designated to work with.

[Zene]

Once you turn it into object permanently, it's no longer your steed. It's an object.

Per JC, Polymorph does not change the fact that your found steed is your found steed, or your familiar is your familiar.

This 100% works by RAW.

Note, however, that AL has specifically disallowed it by saying TP can’t last longer than a session or an adventure. (Boo! Hiss!) And of course your home game DM probably will houserule it to not work.

[Quoz]

don't forget the steed has share spells. so any self-buff, from dragon's breath and enlarge/reduce all the way up through shapechange also affects your steed.

also, the best way to break the spell is to share it via ring of spell storing. if a sorcerer is casting, they can even twin it (if the GM has let it go this far, why not?)

[ThePolarBear]

You can get around this, though, by using Flesh to Stone. Turn the steed into stone, and then use True Polymorph to turn it into a CR 9 creature. Voila, no RAW violation.

Nope. Flesh to Stone causes a creature to attain the "petrified" condition. It doesn't change the fact that a creature is still a creature for all intent and purposes.
I know it's weird expecially since it's coming from a firm believer that a "dead creature" is a corpse.

Not that i would find it strange if a DM were to rule that a petrified creature is ALSO an object, however, so there's definetly some wiggle room.

[ImproperJustice]

This thread only seems to justify my GM’s decision to bar Bards from stealing Paladin and Ranger spells.

[LeonBH]

Nope. Flesh to Stone causes a creature to attain the "petrified" condition. It doesn't change the fact that a creature is still a creature for all intent and purposes.
I know it's weird expecially since it's coming from a firm believer that a "dead creature" is a corpse.

Not that i would find it strange if a DM were to rule that a petrified creature is ALSO an object, however, so there's definetly some wiggle room.

Good point. Looks like there is no way to turn the steed into an object of stone in the first place, since only True Polymorph can change a creature into an object .

[Alderic78]

Good point. Looks like there is no way to turn the steed into an object of stone in the first place, since only True Polymorph can change a creature into an object .

Is a dead creature an object ? ^_^

[LeonBH]

Is a dead creature an object ? ^_^

Sure. But a steed summoned by Find Steed, when it dies, disappears and leaves behind no body.

[greenstone]

So at 6th level I pick up find steed with magic secrets (lore bard) and then once I get 9th lvl spells can I true polymorph my trusty warhorse into a object and then into a CR-9 and still have all the advantages of find steed.

Sorry, you can't.

First, you cannot cast true polymorph again because the same spells cast multiple times don't combine.

If the GM did allow the second casting to work then all you would get is a CR 1/4 creature.

Find steed gives you a warhorse or pony or similar, a CR 1/4 creature. You can true polymorph it into an object fine, but it is still a CR 1/4 creature under the effects of a true polymorph spell. Casting the spell again, the target is a CR 1/4 creature/object, so you could only polymorph it into a CR 1/4 creature.


This plan, however, exactly what I'd expect from a bard — a really cunning plan that won't work. Moiuahahahaha.:smalltongue:

[Zene]

No, this doesn't work by RAW. When you turn your steed into an object permanently, they are considered under the effect of True Polymorph until dispelled. If you cast True Polymorph on it again, you run into an issue of game effects with the same name not stacking, as discussed in the DMG Errata.

Only one True Polymorph can be active on the steed at any time. Either it becomes an object, or it becomes another creature of the appropriate CR (but not CR 9). It cannot become a stone and also use that stone as base to become a CR 9 creature.



Looks like there is no way to turn the steed into an object of stone in the first place, since only True Polymorph can change a creature into an object .

Gonna beg to differ here. I agree with you that per RAW, effects don't stack. But that doesn't mean the second casting fails. It means the "more potent" spell takes effect. Now that's open to interpretation and DM fiat, but if it's a 9th-level spell coming from the same caster, it's 100% reasonable to rule that the most recent one takes over. So: Creature TP'd into object; concentration held until permanent. Object TP'd into creature. At the instant the second spell takes effect, yes it overrides the first one, but at no point does the target actually turn back into the original creature (which would have to happen for it to become an invalid target). It was, at the time of the second casting, an object, and thus a valid target for a TP Object>>CR9 Creature. Just like you couldn't cast Hold Monster on it when it was an object, you *can* cast spells that target objects.

So my reading of RAW is, there is absolutely nothing in there that prohibits this. However, a DM could certainly make some kind of funky ruling --within RAW-- that "more potent" does not, in fact, mean the most recent casting of the spell. But that's the only way I can see to disallow this without houseruling.

[LeonBH]

At the instant the second spell takes effect, yes it overrides the first one, but at no point does the target actually turn back into the original creature (which would have to happen for it to become an invalid target).

The target of the spell has to always be a valid target of the spell (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/736269988885995521), not just at the moment of casting. For example, Haste requires a willing creature for it to be cast on. If in the middle of the buff, the target suddenly becomes unwilling to be Hasted, the spell will end regardless if the caster wants it to or not.

Another example, you can Dominate Beast a Wildshaped Druid. But when they use their action to revert to their humanoid form, Dominate Beast ends because its target is no longer valid.

So a creature turned into object by True Polymorph is an object. But if True Polymorph is used again to turn that object into another creature, and the second casting is considered more potent, then the first casting is suppressed. Thus, the original creature is no longer an object and becomes an invalid target of the second casting (which needs an object, not a creature). Since they are now an invalid target, the second casting immediately expires.

[Zene]

The target of the spell has to always be a valid target of the spell (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/736269988885995521), not just at the moment of casting. For example, Haste requires a willing creature for it to be cast on. If in the middle of the buff, the target suddenly becomes unwilling to be Hasted, the spell will end regardless if the caster wants it to or not.

Another example, you can Dominate Beast a Wildshaped Druid. But when they use their action to revert to their humanoid form, Dominate Beast ends because its target is no longer valid.

So a creature turned into object by True Polymorph is an object. But if True Polymorph is used again to turn that object into another creature, and the second casting is considered more potent, then the first casting is suppressed. Thus, the original creature is no longer an object and becomes an invalid target of the second casting (which needs an object, not a creature). Since they are now an invalid target, the second casting immediately expires.

Except all those things (new spell succeeding, old spell suppressing, new spell taking effect) are happening simultaneously. If there were any kind of delay between when one spell drops and the next takes effect, sure, you’d be right. But there’s nothing in RAW indicating any kind of delay like that. But there is no time interval—not even a millisecond—where the thing has reverted before it’s TP’d again.

And if it needed to always have been an object for TP object-to-creature to stay up on it... then every single TP object-to-creature of any object would fail, because as soon as it takes effect the target is no longer an object. “What is it underneath” is not a thing in TP. So TP does not have any kind of weird conditional where it’s monitoring the creature/object type *underneath* the spell. There is no type for it to monitor. That creature or object is *gone*, until the spell ends (via dispel or whatever) in which case it’d go back to its original form.

This isn’t the case in the Druid example you gave, because at any given time the druid is either a beast (valid target) or a humanoid (invalid target). There’s no hidden variable the game would need to monitor, there. Same with Haste; target at any given time is willing or nonwilling. But a creature TP’d into an object is no longer a creature, regardless of what it started as; and vice versa. So if TP ever works, then it works in this instance.

[LeonBH]

Except all those things (new spell succeeding, old spell suppressing, new spell taking effect) are happening simultaneously. If there were any kind of delay between when one spell drops and the next takes effect, sure, you’d be right. But there’s nothing in RAW indicating any kind of delay like that. But there is no time interval—not even a millisecond—where the thing has reverted before it’s TP’d again.

It doesn't matter if it happened instantaneously or not.

One second after the second True Polymorph has been cast, the following things are true:
* The first True Polymorph has been suppressed
* Therefore the target is retroactively a creature instead of an object
* And thus the second casting of True Polymorph has used its Object to Creature function on a creature


And if it needed to always have been an object for TP object-to-creature to stay up on it... then every single TP object-to-creature of any object would fail, because as soon as it takes effect the target is no longer an object. “What is it underneath” is not a thing in TP. So TP does not have any kind of weird conditional where it’s monitoring the creature/object type *underneath* the spell. There is no type for it to monitor. That creature or object is *gone*, until the spell ends (via dispel or whatever) in which case it’d go back to its original form.

Yes, "what is underneath" is a thing in True Polymorph. That is why it has "Creature to Creature", "Object to Creature", and "Creature to Object". It requires the target to either be a creature or an object in advance.

"What is underneath" is also a thing in every spell that requires a valid target. The "thing underneath" is the validity of the target. In the case of Haste, the "thing underneath" is its willingness. In the case of Dominate Beast, it is the creature type of the target. In the case of True Polymorph, it is whether the target is a creature or an object.

That doesn't invalidate every Object to Creature transformation, because it was an object, and is now a creature.


This isn’t the case in the Druid example you gave, because at any given time the druid is either a beast (valid target) or a humanoid (invalid target). There’s no hidden variable the game would need to monitor, there. Same with Haste; target at any given time is willing or nonwilling. But a creature TP’d into an object is no longer a creature, regardless of what it started as; and vice versa. So if TP ever works, then it works in this instance.

It is the same for True Polymorph. The target is either an object (valid) or a creature (invalid). Yes, the creature-turned-object is valid at the time of casting. But when the second casting suppresses the first casting, it becomes invalid.

[Kane0]

Best pet rock ever!

[sambojin]

Make male steeder (find steed).
Combat.
Do a reaction wait (wait until steeder has jumped and is at the top of its' jumping height).
Cast True Polymorph. Turn steeder into the biggest rock you can. Unfortunately, exactly male steeder sized. Or a 5x5' rock of pure lead (or uranium), so several tons, if your DM wants to be generous.
See how your DM adjudicates falling rock damage.

Best pet rock ever!


(kind of easier to turn anything vaguely large into a CR9 creature, but whatever. Find Steed is what we've got to work with)

[Tiadoppler]

Disclaimer: I make no claim that this is RAW. It may, however, be funny.

Cast Find Steed and summon a warhorse. Your steed has intelligence of 6, and understands a language.

Attune a Headband of Intellect to your steed. Your steed has intelligence of 19.

Train your steed in a PC class of your choice. Maybe Monk or Barbarian(Tavern Brawler) for greater movement speed and unarmed combat. Most steeds don't have hands for equipping weapons/shields anyway.

Adventure alongside your steed, allowing it to gain experience alongside you.

Your steed is immortal as long as you are alive. Your steed is smarter than you. Your steed may or may not be more combat effective than you.



Congratulations, you're now a horse's phylactery.

[sambojin]

If I could train jumping-steeder-catapult-rocks into PC classes, I would. But I can't.

So you'll just have to not have "my f'ing huge ponies" for now. Until WotC f's something up on that. Which, they probably will, given time.

[Zene]

I suspect neither of us is gonna convince the other, since we’re starting to repeat points here. But just a few thoughts before I call it a night:



* Therefore the target is retroactively a creature instead of an object


“Retroactively” is also not a thing in 5e. The spell isn’t going back in time and changing the past. It would be a construct of the rules you’d have to create, for this spell only; that is not supported, stated, or even hinted at anywhere else in the rule books.



Yes, "what is underneath" is a thing in True Polymorph. That is why it has "Creature to Creature", "Object to Creature", and "Creature to Object". It requires the target to either be a creature or an object in advance.


Not in advance; at the time of casting. Which causes no conflict here, as they are exactly what the spell is looking for at the time of casting.

As for haste, etc.; I already addressed why those are different. But another way of looking at it: None of them need to “retroactively” apply any kind of change to a former version of the target to make sense.

A better comparison is Transmute Rock. It can change rock to mud (requiring rock as a valid target) or mud to rock (requiring mud as a valid target). It doesn’t care what those substances were in the past; nor does it fail because the instant you change one to the other, it “retroactively” becomes an invalid target.



That doesn't invalidate every Object to Creature transformation, because it was an object, and is now a creature.


Which is exactly the case here. There is no precedent for anything in 5e going back in time and retroactively changing what something was before the spell was cast. And to invent that mechanic here is bending over backwards to find a way to fit it in—when there is a far simpler reading of RAW, that requires no invention of new (i.e., not referenced in book) rules constructs like retroactivity, and has no inherent conflicts if you don’t invent new rules constructs like retroactivity.

I suppose if we really want a ruling nailed down, we can lobby someone to tweet it at JC: “If a CR 1/4 creature is true polymorphed into an object, and made permanent; then can that object now be true polymorphed into a CR 9 creature?” His answer won’t have any bearing on which of us is reading the RAW correctly, but it may be a ruling that settles the debate of what’s possible. (My isntinct is that if he thinks it is currently possible, he will rule it can’t be done or is counter to RAI, because it is definitely a pretty silly exploit).