Need help choosing spells for a divine soul sorcerer.

[PhantomVector]

Like the long titles asks, I need some help coming up with an overall spell list, maybe even some level specific(what spells to keep forever or what spells to change out at a certain level.) suggestions for a divine soul sorcerer/Rogue multiclass.

We don’t really have a healer, we have a Druid but I think this might be her first or second game, and I think she’s going with a more offensive build. And I want her to just enjoy and do her own thing since she’s new, and not worry too much about min/maxing.

I wanted to try sorcerer but we also needed a healer. With divine soul I can have everything. With that said I’ve no idea what spells I should take. Especially since I’ll be taking only 14 of them.

I’ve seen the guides of course, but they’re for strictly sorcerers. With two competing spell lists when is one blue better then the other?

So far I liked the lightning lure/quickened shocking grasp combo. I can separate a enemy from his group and walk away scot free. Or maybe booming blade him and lightning lure if he moves up to move.

Fire bolt and ray of frost for my ranged cantrips.

But I’m also liking Toll the Dead, and guidance. Should I forgo the melee ranged cantrips and pick these up? I was gonna pick up bless too should I not bother with guidance? but at the same time guidance is a cantrip and I’ll always be able to cast it.

First level spells I was thinking chromatic and bless.

[Strangways]

First, a side point, even the worst Druid circle for healing (Circle of the Moon) can still heal quite well, as long as they’re not spending all their time in Wild Shape. So you don’t have to worry about carrying all the burden of healing.

As to spell selection, that’s really hard. They basically doubled your available spell options compared to other sorcerers, while giving you only one extra spell known over the sorcerer’s pitiful base allotment. It’s really hard choosing spells even as a non-Divine Soul sorcerer. I don’t know how DS sorcerers do it with all those great cleric spells to choose from. I would say, at a minimum, that you want Spiritual Weapon. It’s one of the best spells in the game because it’s almost the only spell that provides for an ongoing, damaging attack but without requiring concentration. Of course, you want one healing spell as well.

As to cantrips, Toll the Dead is really, really strong, probably the based saving-throw based attack cantrip in the game right now. So you definitely want that.

[Arenabait]

Healers aren't really necessary in 5e, just keep healing word in your back pocket in case someone gets knocked down (They fight just as well whether at 10000 hit points or at 1 hit point, so there's no need to waste a spell slot on 1d4+Cha hp when you could use it as Spare the Dying+) Eventually grab Mass Healing Word and then Mass Cure Wounds if you feel the need. Probably snag Revivify at 5th level, and trade it out for Raise Dead later when you hit 9th level.

As for damage cantrips, Toll the Dead is the best for damage, but probably keep one more in your pocket to counteract resistances. You might want to go more for utility cantrips though, and hold off on drawing more enemies towards yourself, being a caster with no serious disengage abilites, such as a Rogue's Cunning Action, or a Monk's Step of the Wind.

I suggest grabbing both Guidance AND Bless, since they do very different things. Guidance gives +1d4 to skill checks, and you can use it out of combat without any penalty, while Bless gives +1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws. Skill Checks, Saving Throws, and Attack Rolls are completely separated from each other, and have no overlap, so neither do Guidance and Bless.

[PhantomVector]

First, a side point, even the worst Druid circle for healing (Circle of the Moon) can still heal quite well, as long as they’re not spending all their time in Wild Shape. So you don’t have to worry about carrying all the burden of healing.

As to spell selection, that’s really hard. They basically doubled your available spell options compared to other sorcerers, while giving you only one extra spell known over the sorcerer’s pitiful base allotment. It’s really hard choosing spells even as a non-Divine Soul sorcerer. I don’t know how DS sorcerers do it with all those great cleric spells to choose from. I would say, at a minimum, that you want Spiritual Weapon. It’s one of the best spells in the game because it’s almost the only spell that provides for an ongoing, damaging attack but without requiring concentration. Of course, you want one healing spell as well.

As to cantrips, Toll the Dead is really, really strong, probably the based saving-throw based attack cantrip in the game right now. So you definitely want that.

I’ll have to see which way she goes, she might not grab any healing at all lol.

Wouldn’t that interfere with my metamagic? Especially my quicken spell? plus that’s competing with cunning action as well. I’m thinking of rogue 5 for uncanny dodge. And the extra mobility will always be appreciated.Apparently it was suggested to make the CR rating as hard as possible lol. So halving some damage done to me sounds awesome.

[Strangways]

Oh, and forget about melee-range attack cantrips. For a sorcerer, being in melee range means being in mortal peril (unless you’re planning to multiclass to get armor proficiency). Just stay out of melee range or, if you can’t avoid it, either Disengage and run, or use Misty Step to teleport out of melee range.

Firebolt is fine, though personally I prefer Chill Touch. Firebolt’s d10 beats CT’s d8, but lots more things are resistant to Firebolt’s fire damage than are resistant to CT’s necrotic damage, plus you’ll appreciate CT when you run into the occasional regenerating monster. I’d take a close look at the cleric cantrip Sacred Flame as well. Lots of big, heavy, hard-hitting monsters have high AC but low dex saves. It will be hard to hit them with attack rolls, but easy to hit them with Sacred Flame.

[PhantomVector]

Healers aren't really necessary in 5e, just keep healing word in your back pocket in case someone gets knocked down (They fight just as well whether at 10000 hit points or at 1 hit point, so there's no need to waste a spell slot on 1d4+Cha hp when you could use it as Spare the Dying+) Eventually grab Mass Healing Word and then Mass Cure Wounds if you feel the need. Probably snag Revivify at 5th level, and trade it out for Raise Dead later when you hit 9th level.

As for damage cantrips, Toll the Dead is the best for damage, but probably keep one more in your pocket to counteract resistances. You might want to go more for utility cantrips though, and hold off on drawing more enemies towards yourself, being a caster with no serious disengage abilites, such as a Rogue's Cunning Action, or a Monk's Step of the Wind.

I suggest grabbing both Guidance AND Bless, since they do very different things. Guidance gives +1d4 to skill checks, and you can use it out of combat without any penalty, while Bless gives +1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws. Skill Checks, Saving Throws, and Attack Rolls are completely separated from each other, and have no overlap, so neither do Guidance and Bless.

Ah I am multiclassing, 5 rogue/15 sorcerer. I really want uncanny dodge. I was hoping for evasion but I’d lose flight so that blows. Plus the extra mobility is always welcome.


Oh I read them wrong then. You’re right. I should grab both.

[Strangways]

Think about when your campaign’s likely to end before you multiclass. Most campaigns never get near level 20. If your campaign ends at level 10 (for example), then taking 5 levels of rogue means you’re never going to be a particularly strong sorcerer. A level 10 Sorcerer has much, much more power output than a 5 Sorcerer / 5 Rogue. The backbone of the Rogue class is doing sneak attack bonus damage by hitting with finesse weapons or bows, and that’s going to be completely wasted on a Sorcerer who never uses either in combat. Sorcerers and Wizards both have spells designed to keep them alive in combat. Those spells serve a similar function to the rogue’s tricky moves, like cunning action hiding, uncanny dodge etc. Rely on those spells, and don’t undercut your sorcerer power by taking a bunch of rogue levels that don’t get you anything you wouldn’t have had anyway via spells.

[PhantomVector]

Oh, and forget about melee-range attack cantrips. For a sorcerer, being in melee range means being in mortal peril (unless you’re planning to multiclass to get armor proficiency). Just stay out of melee range or, if you can’t avoid it, either Disengage and run, or use Misty Step to teleport out of melee range.

Firebolt is fine, though personally I prefer Chill Touch. Firebolt’s d10 beats CT’s d8, but lots more things are resistant to Firebolt’s fire damage than are resistant to CT’s necrotic damage, plus you’ll appreciate CT when you run into the occasional regenerating monster. I’d take a close look at the cleric cantrip Sacred Flame as well. Lots of big, heavy, hard-hitting monsters have high AC but low dex saves. It will be hard to hit them with attack rolls, but easy to hit them with Sacred Flame.

I’ll check it out. But can sacred flame be used indoors? I thought it fell from the sky right?

I was thinking guidance, chill touch, sacred flame, toll the dead.

[Citan]

Like the long titles asks, I need some help coming up with an overall spell list, maybe even some level specific(what spells to keep forever or what spells to change out at a certain level.) suggestions for a divine soul sorcerer/Rogue multiclass.

We don’t really have a healer, we have a Druid but I think this might be her first or second game, and I think she’s going with a more offensive build. And I want her to just enjoy and do her own thing since she’s new, and not worry too much about min/maxing.

I wanted to try sorcerer but we also needed a healer. With divine soul I can have everything. With that said I’ve no idea what spells I should take. Especially since I’ll be taking only 14 of them.

I’ve seen the guides of course, but they’re for strictly sorcerers. With two competing spell lists when is one blue better then the other?

So far I liked the lightning lure/quickened shocking grasp combo. I can separate a enemy from his group and walk away scot free. Or maybe booming blade him and lightning lure if he moves up to move.

Fire bolt and ray of frost for my ranged cantrips.

But I’m also liking Toll the Dead, and guidance. Should I forgo the melee ranged cantrips and pick these up? I was gonna pick up bless too should I not bother with guidance? but at the same time guidance is a cantrip and I’ll always be able to cast it.

First level spells I was thinking chromatic and bless.
Hi!

First, disclaimer: I love the trick you want to use of Lightning Lure+Shocking Grasp, but honestly in your stead, I would not count on it as my basic (or even second-basic) turn.
a) Quickening is very costly for what it's worth in this context at low level (2 SP for one more 1st-tier cantrip)
b) Lightning Lure only damages if creatures gets within 5 feet, so you bring danger to you yourself.
c) Shocking Grasp is not a sure-hit either, many creatures have decent AC.
So, worst case, you spent 2 SP to end with an enemy hurt enough to wanna hit you, but still having his reaction to attack if you move away, and yourself deprived of any action. Granted, you still have (maybe) Shield to help get out, but even that can not be sufficient.
>>> See this as a thing you can start relying on when you are level 6 Sorcerer at the very least, and provided you are ready to burn many resources in a single fight. Or forget it until you are level 10+.

Second, Divine Soul: you get access to many great Cleric spells, many of which are extremely benefitting of the Extended metamagic.
Among those: Sanctuary, Bless, Warding Bond, Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians etc.
Many spells can also be twinned for good effect, but Twin is even more costly than Quickened.

Third, Rogue multiclass: it means that you are more resilient than a pure Sorcerer, so there are some spells you can use more confidently, like Warding Bond (although it's still a dangerous spell, use with care if you pick it ^^).

Fourth, Sorcerer: there are still many spells you really want to know as a Sorcerer, because there are just good. ;)

What I'd suggest to learn over the course of your progression:
- Healing Words (because it's the basic), Bless (because it's always great and nobody else can get it), then Sorcerer spells for a while...
- Then Aid (especially if you pick Extended Metamagic OR Druid never prepares Healing Spirit), Revivify (can save the day), optionnally Warding Bond (after picking Extended Aid and only when you are confident you know when to use it without condemning yourself) then Sorcerer spells (if you find you don't use bonus action that enough, Shadow Blade is a good spell to learn)...
- Then Spirit Guardians (IF you don't want Haste, and AFTER you got Uncanny Dodge and possibly Evasion).
If your Druid never bothers to prepare Lesser Restoration, you'll have to grab it eventually.
If/when you get there, pick Raise Dead (in place of Revivify) without asking question. That's one of the 5 core spells anyone who pretends being a healer needs to know.

For first level, I'd suggest Magic Missile instead of Chromatic (then swap if for Chromatic or another offensive spell at level 3).

One good set of spells for a Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 (I'm not saying this is the best however, it's just one example among others).
Metamagics: Extended, Quickened: Healing Words (replaced at level 4), Magic Missile (replaced at level 3), Shield, Enhance Ability, Aid, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image/Fly/Haste/Slow (whichever), Spirit Guardians.
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Guidance, Sacred Words, Ray of Frost.

Idea here is to play "near frontliner": Healing Words is replaced by Quickened Aid (this is a matter of taste here: resource consumption is equal to 3*Healing Words, so it's essentially a gain on reaction speed. I'm counting on Druid preparing Healing Words for isolated cases, while you take care of unsuspected multiple down due to AOE). You then either use (Extended) Slow to reduce enemy threat, or tank by using whichever combination of Mirror Image and Spirit Guardians.

Another good set
Metamagics: Distant, Twinned.
Cantrips: Spare the Dying, Booming Blade, Guidance, whatever ranged cantrip.
Spells: Healing Words, Sanctuary/Shield of Faith (or none then pick whatever), Chromatic Orb, Phantasmal Force (replaced or not by Hold Person or Bestow Curse depending on your taste later), Haste (if you have pals that could use it), Counterspell.
Idea here is to play more as a middle-liner or a backliner: you use your bow to attack (or a ranged cantrip when you need a rider), using Distant to greatly extend the effective range of your spells (especially Spare the Dying and Healing Words) and in the toughest fight squeeing out a Twinned something to help finish things quicker.

A third good set
Metamagics: Subtle, whatever (depending on other spells chosen later, default Extended or Distant)
Cantrips: Thaumaturgy, Toll the Dead/Booming Blade, Guidance, either of Minor Illusion/Prestidigitation/Mold Earth/Control Flames/etc.
Spells: Healing Words/Aid, Enhance Ability, Suggestion, Counterspell, Command, Silence (or swap one of those for Shadow Blade if you want more direct offense).
This is the manipulative magically enhanced Rogue: when a Sleight of Hand is not enough...
Your friend will have trouble succeeding on a difficult check during a "social encounter", but help would be frowned upon? Subtle Guidance or Enhance Ability.
You have one character troubling you? Subtle Command "Obey" will deal with him.
You pose as the messenger of a powerful divinity, and people ask for some proof of that? Cross your arms, stay perfectly immobile while just looking straight in the eyes of the opposing camp leader after having announced a divine manifestation, then make it happen by Subtly using any of those creative cantrips.
You have been negotiating a hard trade with an influencial merchant or noble, and he's still hesitating? Subtle Command "Agree" or "Sign" will seal the deal.
You face enemy casters? Between Silence, your own subtle casting (so he can't counterspell) and the possibly Distant Counterspell of yours, you will be a sore pain for them.

I hope I gave you a few nice ideas to help design your own character. Enjoy! ;)

[PhantomVector]

Hi!

First, disclaimer: I love the trick you want to use of Lightning Lure+Shocking Grasp, but honestly in your stead, I would not count on it as my basic (or even second-basic) turn.
a) Quickening is very costly for what it's worth in this context at low level (2 SP for one more 1st-tier cantrip)
b) Lightning Lure only damages if creatures gets within 5 feet, so you bring danger to you yourself.
c) Shocking Grasp is not a sure-hit either, many creatures have decent AC.
So, worst case, you spent 2 SP to end with an enemy hurt enough to wanna hit you, but still having his reaction to attack if you move away, and yourself deprived of any action. Granted, you still have (maybe) Shield to help get out, but even that can not be sufficient.
>>> See this as a thing you can start relying on when you are level 6 Sorcerer at the very least, and provided you are ready to burn many resources in a single fight. Or forget it until you are level 10+.

Second, Divine Soul: you get access to many great Cleric spells, many of which are extremely benefitting of the Extended metamagic.
Among those: Sanctuary, Bless, Warding Bond, Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians etc.
Many spells can also be twinned for good effect, but Twin is even more costly than Quickened.

Third, Rogue multiclass: it means that you are more resilient than a pure Sorcerer, so there are some spells you can use more confidently, like Warding Bond (although it's still a dangerous spell, use with care if you pick it ^^).

Fourth, Sorcerer: there are still many spells you really want to know as a Sorcerer, because there are just good. ;)

What I'd suggest to learn over the course of your progression:
- Healing Words (because it's the basic), Bless (because it's always great and nobody else can get it), then Sorcerer spells for a while...
- Then Aid (especially if you pick Extended Metamagic OR Druid never prepares Healing Spirit), Revivify (can save the day), optionnally Warding Bond (after picking Extended Aid and only when you are confident you know when to use it without condemning yourself) then Sorcerer spells (if you find you don't use bonus action that enough, Shadow Blade is a good spell to learn)...
- Then Spirit Guardians (IF you don't want Haste, and AFTER you got Uncanny Dodge and possibly Evasion).
If your Druid never bothers to prepare Lesser Restoration, you'll have to grab it eventually.
If/when you get there, pick Raise Dead (in place of Revivify) without asking question. That's one of the 5 core spells anyone who pretends being a healer needs to know.

For first level, I'd suggest Magic Missile instead of Chromatic (then swap if for Chromatic or another offensive spell at level 3).

One good set of spells for a Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 (I'm not saying this is the best however, it's just one example among others).
Metamagics: Extended, Quickened: Healing Words (replaced at level 4), Magic Missile (replaced at level 3), Shield, Enhance Ability, Aid, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image/Fly/Haste/Slow (whichever), Spirit Guardians.
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Guidance, Sacred Words, Ray of Frost.

Idea here is to play "near frontliner": Healing Words is replaced by Quickened Aid (this is a matter of taste here: resource consumption is equal to 3*Healing Words, so it's essentially a gain on reaction speed. I'm counting on Druid preparing Healing Words for isolated cases, while you take care of unsuspected multiple down due to AOE). You then either use (Extended) Slow to reduce enemy threat, or tank by using whichever combination of Mirror Image and Spirit Guardians.

Another good set
Metamagics: Distant, Twinned.
Cantrips: Spare the Dying, Booming Blade, Guidance, whatever ranged cantrip.
Spells: Healing Words, Sanctuary/Shield of Faith (or none then pick whatever), Chromatic Orb, Phantasmal Force (replaced or not by Hold Person or Bestow Curse depending on your taste later), Haste (if you have pals that could use it), Counterspell.
Idea here is to play more as a middle-liner or a backliner: you use your bow to attack (or a ranged cantrip when you need a rider), using Distant to greatly extend the effective range of your spells (especially Spare the Dying and Healing Words) and in the toughest fight squeeing out a Twinned something to help finish things quicker.

A third good set
Metamagics: Subtle, whatever (depending on other spells chosen later, default Extended or Distant)
Cantrips: Thaumaturgy, Toll the Dead/Booming Blade, Guidance, either of Minor Illusion/Prestidigitation/Mold Earth/Control Flames/etc.
Spells: Healing Words/Aid, Enhance Ability, Suggestion, Counterspell, Command, Silence (or swap one of those for Shadow Blade if you want more direct offense).
This is the manipulative magically enhanced Rogue: when a Sleight of Hand is not enough...
Your friend will have trouble succeeding on a difficult check during a "social encounter", but help would be frowned upon? Subtle Guidance or Enhance Ability.
You have one character troubling you? Subtle Command "Obey" will deal with him.
You pose as the messenger of a powerful divinity, and people ask for some proof of that? Cross your arms, stay perfectly immobile while just looking straight in the eyes of the opposing camp leader after having announced a divine manifestation, then make it happen by Subtly using any of those creative cantrips.
You have been negotiating a hard trade with an influencial merchant or noble, and he's still hesitating? Subtle Command "Agree" or "Sign" will seal the deal.
You face enemy casters? Between Silence, your own subtle casting (so he can't counterspell) and the possibly Distant Counterspell of yours, you will be a sore pain for them.

I hope I gave you a few nice ideas to help design your own character. Enjoy! ;)

Thank you for the awesome write up. I might have questions later as I think on what you've wrote, hope you'll be around :)

[NecessaryWeevil]

You face enemy casters? Between Silence, your own subtle casting (so he can't counterspell) and the possibly Distant Counterspell of yours, you will be a sore pain for them.


I don't think Distant Counterspell works. The Casting Time entry states that the target must be within 60 feet. I could totally see a houserule to change that, but according to Rules as Written, Distant Counterspell is not a thing.

[xen]

Twinned Guiding Bolt is highly useful. Nice damage and damage type with a rider giving the next attacks advantage. I got great use out of that playing the UA favored soul.

For that matter quicken it if necessary to trigger your sneak attack.

[Chugger]

Thank you for the awesome write up. I might have questions later as I think on what you've wrote, hope you'll be around :)

Wait - study how the sorc class works before taking any of that guy's advice. He advises two meta magics that many consider weak to even worthless. Not saying if he's right or wrong - just read sorc guides.

Yes, esp at low lvl Twin and guiding bolt is strong.

[xen]

Wait - study how the sorc class works before taking any of that guy's advice. He advises two meta magics that many consider weak to even worthless. Not saying if he's right or wrong - just read sorc guides.

Yes, esp at low lvl Twin and guiding bolt is strong.


Agree with this. Extended is hardly ever worth it. Don't overthink it. Quicken and Twin. May cost a little more sometimes but you'll get the most use out of these. Twin Death Ward is hella better than extended Death Ward. Sure you have other uses for your bonus action but anything better than a quickened hold person followed by a critical hit with sneak attack on a failed save. The correct answer is no.

Twin spiritual weapon is great. Resist the temptation to load up on cure spells. Healing Word is fine. Don't bother with chromatic orb. Guiding bolt will do the job better and it's just as cheap to twin.

Don't take all cleric spells just cherry pick the ones you can't do without and that play nice with your metamagic.

Also if this is a home game ask to use the spell point variant in the DMG and combine sorcery points into one pool for a little more versatility.

[Gardakan]

Pick Counterspell. It's on your spell list, and it's a life savior.

Also... if you plan on picking Twin Spell...

Life Transference is good. It's a good way to turn a fight that is going poorly and it's efficient healing to someone who's down (healing word will not put it out of harm in any situation, Life Transference is more potent at keeping them alive).

Otherwise... build it how you want. The ability to have Counterspell with Priest spells are awesome.

Aid is a good one. It scales nicely with levels and is always useful. It burns your 2nd level slot easily without being wasted at all.

Sanctuary is nice.

[PhantomVector]

Holy F*** Guiding bolt. I didn't know this spell until today. I mean long as I hit its full damage, and advantage to allies. No save. That's pretty ridiculous.

So I'm pretty sure my spell list is going to be Toll the Dead, Chill Touch, Guidance, Firebolt for my cantrips. Level 1 will be Guiding bolt, and Bless. I've got cure wounds as well, and the Tiefling spells. What do you guys think? I'll be grabbing healing word, and maybe healing prayer for out of combat later. Magic missile is on my mind. But its a bit meh for a level 1, feels more like it should be a cantrip.

[Citan]

Wait - study how the sorc class works before taking any of that guy's advice. He advises two meta magics that many consider weak to even worthless. Not saying if he's right or wrong - just read sorc guides.

Yes, esp at low lvl Twin and guiding bolt is strong.


Agree with this. Extended is hardly ever worth it. Don't overthink it. Quicken and Twin. May cost a little more sometimes but you'll get the most use out of these. Twin Death Ward is hella better than extended Death Ward. Sure you have other uses for your bonus action but anything better than a quickened hold person followed by a critical hit with sneak attack on a failed save. The correct answer is no.

Twin spiritual weapon is great. Resist the temptation to load up on cure spells. Healing Word is fine. Don't bother with chromatic orb. Guiding bolt will do the job better and it's just as cheap to twin.

Don't take all cleric spells just cherry pick the ones you can't do without and that play nice with your metamagic.

Also if this is a home game ask to use the spell point variant in the DMG and combine sorcery points into one pool for a little more versatility.
Lol.
Guys should take their own advice before writing this kind of posts. XD

I don't pretend my suggestions are golden, and I never did, they are just suggestions.
But you are totally out of your minds here.

1. Extended value
Extended is much better than Twin from level 5 onwards with quite a few Sorcerer spells
Fly, Hold Person, Hold Monster, and every other spell that allows one more target per spell level. So if your main tactic would be to try and Hold creatures, Twin is the worst option.
Once you consider Cleric spells, it becomes one of the most potent options depending on your role: if you plan on being a buffer, just the Aid spell may make Extended worth enough. Unless you consider that, whenever you have a preparation time available, making your whole party start with 15 more HP as a lvl 5 Sorcerer is worthless (hint: if you think so, then you probably play with a lenient DM). As an illustration, for yourself or a pal Wizard of same level and usual stats (14-16 CON, 1d6) this represents somewhere around 30% boost to their HP. And it's not THP either: if you take damage, as long as you can heal between encounters with cheap resources like potions (so, not eating into precious resources) the actual extra HP benefit is multiplied.

2. Twin Spiritual Weapon?
This is not RAW nor RAI. The direct effect of the spell is not to "make a melee spell attack". It is to "create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration". The fact that the spell allows you to use it in the same turn to attack a creature is irrelevant. You don't "target a creature" when you cast the spell, you "target a point in range".
Even if you were playing with a DM lenient enough to houserule you can actually Twin it, it would only result in having two weapons to choose from when attacking, but not having two attacks in the same round.

3. Twin Death Ward is better than Extended Death Ward?
Please explain to me how being able to buff as many members of a party as you want (provided you have enough slots of course) THEN take a long rest, so that party has the Death Ward protection and you still have all slots and SP, is not better than using 4 points for a Twin.
Especially when it's a spell that is likely not cast in the middle of a fight anyways, unless you just rushed somewhere without grabbing any information. So between 2 consecutive Death Wards and a Twinned Death Ward, you just gain 1 spellcasting point and one action, in a non-hurried context. \o/

Ask any party which lvl 7 Sorcerer they prefer between...
- "So, hey, if we really face a dangerous enemy and know it will be useful against him, I can protect two of you with a single action. But it also means I will have one less Polymorph/Wall of Fire/Banishement and 4 less SP to use for other metamagics or another slot".
- "So, hey, I took the spell Death Ward in case we would encounter very dangerous enemies. Just so you know, whenever we manage to get some preparation time, I will be able to Death Ward all of you and I'll still have all my power ready to unleash in the actual face-off".
I'm waiting for an honest answer.

4. Twin "May cost a little more sometimes"?
Seriously dude, stop the blatant lies.
Quicken is a good metamagic because the cost is fixed, and because it opens all kinds of combinations.
But at level 3, you have 3 SP: it's ONE Quicken per long rest, unless you start eating into your slots to convert.
If you prefer being a lvl 3 Sorcerer that can unleash 4 Quickened Lightning Lure + Shocking Graps combo as his best thing in a day, good for you.
I know I'd prefer a Sorcerer not wasting resources on this and instead getting the party an insta-win with a successful Hold Person on the BBEG or putting a dangerous foe aside with Phantasmal Force while maintaing his concentration with the help of Shield.

At level 5, it's the same problem mostly. You have very strong competition with slots already, and keeping a bit of SP for an emergency Quicken if you have it. If you add Twin on top of that, you end frustrated by the fact you are basically always throwing a coin every day on how to use your fuel.

That is why I never suggest a pair of Metamagics that doesn't have at least one of both with a 1-point fixed cost.

Twin is very good only if you plan on using it combined with a very few select spells, and are okay with spoiling other resources to do that: like Twin Haste and Twin Warding Bond put on two martial pals so they can wreak havoc while you stay far behind and putting your own safety as a top priority so concentration doesn't break at a bad time. Or Twin Shield of Faith to protect your weakest friends then using Twin Guiding Bolt (although this is a weaker option overall than Heightened Hold Person beyond CR 3-4 creatures as far as return for investment goes).

Agreed though that Twin Guiding Bolt is a great trick at low levels.

5. "Quicken? you'll get the most use out of these."
It's one of my top three suggestions for a pure Sorcerer, except a Divine Soul Sorcerer specializing in Cleric buffs. For a Rogue / Divine Soul Sorcerer multiclass?
You can already use your bonus action for...
- From Rogue: another chance at Sneak Attack (twf), Hide, Dash, Disengage, and potentially Mage Hand if Arcane Trickster.
- From Sorcerer: Healing Words, potentially any Cleric spell that uses bonus action, but also cast Dragon's Breath on someone, or Shadow Blade on yourself (especially since you're a Rogue).

6. "Ask to use the spellcasting point variant and fuse it with SP pool".
Now I understand why you have such a warped opinion on metamagics respective values.
The spellcasting variant throws the balance out of the window. Of course if it's allowed then the resulting opportunity cost of Twin and Quicken is much lower, since you don't need to convert slots back and forth (operation in which you lose some points since it's not a 1:1 conversion).

@OP: But I'd advise against it unless your DM really knows what he's doing: this change makes you much more powerful than a normal caster. Although it's true that your character is actually a dual-class: if you start Rogue then goes Sorcerer, there is no risk you overshadow your Druid pal. :)
However, I'd rather advise you to ask DM the possibility to change one Metamagic when you learn another level. That way, you can easily try out several Metamagics to see for yourself which ones you like best, and this is not breaking anything at all so there is no strong reason for your DM to refuse imo.

7. "Two metamagics that many consider weak or worthless".
It's just because they are too immature to make the difference between "factually weak" and "not my kind of things". Of course if your thing is playing in a 3-man party, twinning buffs may be the best course. If your thing is Fireballing everything, Distant would be overkill and Extended wouldn't help a bit while Quicken could always help and Empower would be a given.
But in for example a magic-heavy (enemy Counterspell) or infiltration campaign, Subtle may end as your best metamagic ever.
If you're the only caster that can learn battlefield control and have several martials, Careful is the obvious top here.
If party asks you to be the one to take care of the most dangerous foes, Heightened should be a priority, Distant may be considered too.
Etc etc...

[Throne12]

Wait - study how the sorc class works before taking any of that guy's advice. He advises two meta magics that many consider weak to even worthless. Not saying if he's right or wrong - just read sorc guides.

Yes, esp at low lvl Twin and guiding bolt is strong.

Non of the meta magic is weak.

[Throne12]

If your looking to pick up the healer mantle but want to play a rogue. While not just play a rogue with the healer feat. Don't believe what people say about it. It's a great feat. The scaling is good and they are cheaper then potions way cheaper.

[Citan]

Holy F*** Guiding bolt. I didn't know this spell until today. I mean long as I hit its full damage, and advantage to allies. No save. That's pretty ridiculous.

So I'm pretty sure my spell list is going to be Toll the Dead, Chill Touch, Guidance, Firebolt for my cantrips. Level 1 will be Guiding bolt, and Bless. I've got cure wounds as well, and the Tiefling spells. What do you guys think? I'll be grabbing healing word, and maybe healing prayer for out of combat later. Magic missile is on my mind. But its a bit meh for a level 1, feels more like it should be a cantrip.
I actually forgot to reply to your last question post. Sorry. ^^

Hmm...
This is a pretty good choice overall, I'm just a bit worried about the Magic Missile bit. I'd argue that its effectiveness is rather seen at lvl 1-2 and usually swapped later...

But the thing that I never got is... What character level are you actually? Or rather, are you starting a new character or you are already some Rogue and you start multiclassing?

In the first case (aka char level 1) I'd argue that it's better to take Magic Missile right now and swap it no later than level 3-4. Sure, its damage is weak, but unless weird DM, there is virtually no enemy (for now) that can resist it, the amount of damage is fairly easy to predict, and that usually represents the better part of a CR 1/4 creature's HP. So when you use it, basically your friends now that the targeted creature is gonna drop now, or soon enough after.

Otherwise, stay with your initial Guiding Bolt and Bless choice, and just forget about Magic Missile. :)
You may even spare yourself learning Healing Words if you see that usually healing after the fight is enough, or if general you acting as the healer is rare (especially if you pick Quicken metamagic later).

Don't misunderstand me, it's a great spell, but if your Druid prepares it and you don't know how to learn all the spells you want, since Cure Wounds cannot be swapped (unless I'm mistaken, in which case obviously swap Cure Wounds for Healing Words ;)) this may still work good enough.

If your looking to pick up the healer mantle but want to play a rogue. While not just play a rogue with the healer feat. Don't believe what people say about it. It's a great feat. The scaling is good and they are cheaper then potions way cheaper.
Very true, Healer feat is great to have past level 5 and Thief improves it because compatible with Fast Hands (bonus action).
With that said, 6 levels of Arcane Trickster bring a few utility spells and cantrips to lighten up Sorcerer side load, and 2 caster levels.

Also, one could argue that outside fights, you don't care about how fast you cat, while during fights, a Quickened Aid or Twin Healing Words would still be plain better than Healer feats most of the time...
Because Thief still needs melee range to use the kit so with 2 or more characters downed at the same time, so even if he can use Kit with action and bonus action on different persons he needs to be able to reach both of them in the same turn.
With that said, this is obviously less resources-heavy than the metamagic+spell options, so there is that too. ^^

Without knowing more about OP's vision of his character, hard to say whichever is the best route. ;)

EDIT: and again OP, if you are unsure about metamagics, ask your DM beforehand if he'd allow you to change one when gaining a level. This really harm anything in balance, but it will make your life much easier. And it's apparently a "legal practice" in Adventurer League to completely rebuild your character before you reach level 5 anyways, which is further hint towards allowing a simple metamagic change up until level 7 or so.

[EdenIndustries]

Wait - study how the sorc class works before taking any of that guy's advice. He advises two meta magics that many consider weak to even worthless. Not saying if he's right or wrong - just read sorc guides.


Agree with this. Extended is hardly ever worth it


Lol.
Guys should take their own advice before writing this kind of posts. XD

I don't pretend my suggestions are golden, and I never did, they are just suggestions.
But you are totally out of your minds here.

*snip*


Citan's advice speaks for itself and it's good enough that he doesn't need anyone defending him, but I did feel compelled to point out that Citan is (in my opinion) one of the best people on this board in terms of build advice. Not only were his spell selections spot on, I think his characterization of the Extend metamagic being uniquely suited to the Divine Soul is accurate. In my opinion, one of the most interesting things about the Divine Soul is that it makes Extend (and maybe to a lesser extent Distant) an interesting metamagic choice.

Anyway I have little to add other than to agree with Citan (and second the pointing out that twinning Spiritual Weapon doesn't work) and encourage the unique niche of Divine Soul x Extend metamagic. Have fun!

[Ogre Mage]

If you are being pushed into the healer role you might want to consider multiclassing into Life Cleric 1. It makes you MAD, but you gain a lot -- better armor and shield use (which eliminates the need for the mage armor spell), more powerful healing and perhaps most crucially, a considerably greater number of spells known. Life clerics know bless automatically so you don't need to waste a precious sorcerer spell slot learning it. I would not take more than 1 level of life cleric.

[xen]

I'm sure Citan is a nice dude and didn't mean to infer otherwise. My post was not meant as an attack so i apologize if anyone took it that way.

To the op:
Having played many sorcerers and used most of the metamagics, I have found that twin and quicken will get the most use. If you want cost effective, lots of low level spells are useful with twin and it helps both offense and defense. There's also a lot to be said for heighten and others.

You also don't need the spell point variant, it's just a well known fix for the sorcerer which many people feel needs a fix. Anyways YMMV but if you're playing a home game it's worth asking about.

As far as extend, it is more useful with divine soul than other sorcerers however don't expect to have a bunch of spells to use it with, as your spell choices are too limited. There is an opportunity cost for everything and if you're taking a lot of the long lasting cleric buffs you're missing out on other great spells. I have also found that unless your DM is closely tracking the hours in the day you may not notice 8 vs 16 hours. If you have spells left before a long rest that's where it would be useful but can you count on that? "Sorry guys I'd fireball those jerks but I'm saving for my end of day buffathon."

My best advice is to figure out what roles you want to play... buffer, blaster, debuffer, etc... Then pick your metamagics, and then tailor your spell list from there.

If you are new to sorcerer Citan had a great suggestion in asking your DM if you can swap metamagics upon level up. That would let you try some different tactics.

He's also right in that quicken is costly and you'll find yourself swapping spell slots for sorcery points more, but you know... wrecking the action economy = priceless. 8)

Just my 2 cents. Conversion rates between
D&D and real life probably lower that value to 1.5 cents.

[xen]

Btw twin spiritual weapon does not work. Bad suggestion. Lots of other great options though.

[MrWesson22]

Extended hold person and hold monster are also horrible suggestions. 1. They get a save every round. And 2. With advantage and instant melee crits, nothing in the game is going to survive through 10 rounds anyway.