Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

[Specter]

https://image.ibb.co/e06EOm/at.jpg

After my Eldritch Knight guide, I was pretty sure I was going to do another about the Arcane Trickster, the magical rogue, the invisible pickpocket, the great Booming Blader! 1/3 casters combine all the coolness and martial prowess I take as my favorite thing in characters.

There's stuff in this guide that's good for any Rogue player, since I'm not going for hard numbers or abusing specific class features. Feel free.

I’ve done away with color ratings this time. Too much effort for too much subjectivity and heckling in the comments. Some choices are better than others. When they’re obviously good or obviously bad, the text is pretty clear.


SUMMARY
Roles
Stats
Races
Weapon styles
Class features
Skills
Spells
Feats
Multiclass
General strategy
Sample builds

WHEN SHOULD YOU PLAY AN ARCANE TRICKSTER
- If you want to be good at stuff: When it comes to skill, only a selected few can match the Rogue, and with Arcane Trickster’s spells in the mix, you can do stuff more easily or much more interestingly.
- If you want a more diverse Rogue: Thieves, Assassins and Swashbucklers have their own merits, but once you figure out their modus operanti, you could get bored with them. Arcane Trickster screams variety: there’s always something new you can do, and there are always fresh ideas to be explored.
- If you want to get cool stuff at every level: Level 5 Rogues get Uncanny Dodge; you get Uncanny Dodge and more spells! Level 7 Rogues get Evasion; you get Evasion and 2nd-level spells! Level 14 Rogues get Blindsense; you get Blindsense and a kickass 3rd-level spell. There’s never a dull level in the AT career.

WHEN SHOULDN’T YOU PLAY AN ARCANE TRICKSTER
- If you need the baddest damage: You won’t ever be behind in damage, but you won’t be the best. Other archetypes can deal damage more efficiently, and other classes can do it better.
- If you want a sneaky caster: Bards and Druids are probably what you want.
_______________________________________


Let’s start talking about

ROLES

These are the things each character can do well. As an Arcane Trickster, this is what you need to be:

• Striker: This is the guy that deals high amounts of damage to a single target at a time. Whatever you do, this needs to be covered. As a rogue, you already have the bases for that (Sneak Attack and Cunning Action) covered. The main tools the AT brings to the table in this aspect are Booming Blade and Versatile Trickster, but some other spells can be of help. Multiclassing and feats are good here.

• Skillmonkey: With 4 class skills, Expertise, Reliable Talent and spells, others will expect you to solve exploration and interaction problems for them. This role has many subdivisions, but as long as you excel in at least one of these you’re good to go.
Note that the value of each of these roles is campaign-dependant; in a classical dungeon crawl, there’s not much value in being a face, for example.

Brain
Skills you need: Arcana, History
Skills you want: Nature, Religion
Stat to raise: Intelligence

Face
Skills you need: Deception/Persuasion, Insight
Skills you want: Persuasion/Deception, Intimidation
Stat to raise: Charisma

Scout/Thief
Skills you need: Stealth, Perception
Skills you want: Sleight of Hand
Stat to raise: Wisdom

Trapsmith
Skills you need: Perception, Investigation, Thieves’ Tools
Skills you want: Arcana
Stat to raise: Wisdom

Wildman
Skills you need: Survival, Perception
Skills you want: Nature, Herbalism Kit
Stat to raise: Wisdom

Whatever happens, these two roles must be covered by you, or there’s a high chance you’ll be a liability to the party.

Other optional roles for you are:

• Controller: This is the guy that debuffs, locks and annoys the enemy in general. You can kinda do this before level 9, and after that you can be very good at it. With spells like Hold Person, Suggestion and Hypnotic Pattern, you can wreck an encounter under the right circumstances.

• Tank: this is the guy that diverts the enemy’s attention to keep other party members safe. Depending on your party, you may be shoehorned into this role. You’ll need a high Constitution (more than 14) and good AC, but with Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion on your pocket, you should do well despite lacking a higher Hit Dice. Spells like Mirror Image and Blur become the order of the day.


STATS

• Strength: This is either whatever or garbage for Arcane Tricksters. The exceptions are STR-based rogues who want to focus on grappling/shoving, in which case they may want this higher than DEX. I wouldn’t advise that unless you really know what you’re planning to do, but more on that later.
• Dexterity: The end-all, be-all of rogues. This governs initiative (going first never hurts if you can Ready an action), DEX saves (in which you shine), attack rolls (you don’t want to miss that backstab), damage rolls and important skills/ tools. Make sure you start with at least 15 here (16 would be correct, but sometimes you want a race that doesn’t give a DEX bonus).
• Constitution: Important in everyone’s life, and you’re no different. Aim to start with 14, or at the very least 12. At higher levels, your concentration spells will also rely on it.
• Intelligence: This tells you how good your knowledge skills and spells are, both in terms of veracity (for illusions), difficulty (for enchantment), and something else for most others. Note that it is possible to play a low-Intelligence AT, but that diminishes both your worthwhile spells and the value of Magical Ambush significantly. More on that later.
• Wisdom: Not vital, but with important skills like Perception and Insight and an important save tied to it, you don’t want it on the red. 10 to 12 should be fine.
• Charisma: Ask yourself two questions: 1) Do I want to be the face of this party? 2) Am I interested in multiclassing towards a CHA caster? If yes for both, aim for 14; if yes for the first; a 12 and Expertise get you there; otherwise, dump it.


RACES

• Aarakocra (EE): Well, +2DEX and at-will flight sell this easily… but it’s DM dependent.

• Aasimar (DMG): CHA and WIS? Meh. The rest is not enough to justify picking it.

Aasimar (Volo's): +2CHA blows, but the rest (darkvision, two resistances, some minor healing per long rest and a cantrip) is ok. Only consider these if you have some use for CHA.
• Protector: Wisdom is not cool, but extra damage equal to your level and flight are decent.
• Scourge: Pretty much the same as above, but with CON and no flight.
• Fallen: STR and a fear effect. Don’t bother.

• Dragonborn: Nope. “But what if...” Nope.

Dwarves: +2 CON, darkvision and poison resistance are good, but not much else is.
• Hill: WIS boost, and more HP. Nothing you can’t live without.
• Mountain: This is probably the best race for a STR Rogue, because it gives you medium armor without needing to spend a feat on it. Otherwise, pass.
• Duergar: Unless you're in an Underdark campaign, sunlight sensitivity will wreck you. A shame, since the spell-like abilities are nice.

Elves: A DEX race with charm resistance, darkvision and a bonus skill. So far, awesome.
• High Elf: Your key stats are covered with +1 to INT, and a bonus cantrip is hard to turn down. Solid. Also longbows.
• Wood Elf: +1 WIS, which isn’t great, but hiding within natural phenomena and moving faster is great. Plus, longbow!
• Drow: +1 CHA and sunlight sensitivity... damn. The bonus spells are indeed nice, though. The longer you intend to be underground, the better this is.
• Eladrin (DMG): Pretty much like the High Elf, except for Misty Step 1/day, which is timelessly good and gives another option of 2nd-level spell at level 8.

• Firbolg (Volo's): +2WIS and +1STR, meh. Detect Magic and Disguise Self? Cool. Short rest invisibility? Decent. A good race except for the starting stats.

Genasi (EE): +2 to CON? Good start. Let’s look at the rest:
• Air: +1 DEX and Levitate make this a perfect fit for archers, who usually want to avoid melee.
• Earth: +1 to STR and avoiding rocky difficult terrain... sad. But Pass Without Trace is a massive spell for a Rogue, so I can’t color this red.
• Fire: +1 to INT, resistance to the ubiquitous fire, darkvision and some bonus evocation based on CON (which isn’t bad for you). Very nice overall.
• Water: WIS and resistance to acid. I'd rather not.

Gnomes: +2INT, darkvision and advantage on 3 magic saves? Works for me.
• Forest: More DEX is good, obviously. Talking to animals can be great or useless. But definitely not a bad choice.
• Rock: More CON is good for all builds. Take History, obviously.
• Deep: +CON, a stealth bonus in rocky terrain, and improved darkvision. Could go either way.

• Goliath: For STR builds? Sure. Others, look away.

Halfling: +2DEX, rerolling 1’s and advantage against fear effects are good, but they lack darkvision unlike most small races.
• Lightfoot: +CHA, and hiding behind creatures larger than you. Who needs trees and alleys when you have a Human around?
• Stout: +1 CON and resistance to poison. If you thought about being a dwarf, this is probably what you really want.
• Ghostwise (SCAG): +1WIS, and telepathy. If you're going for a WIS multiclass, could be flavorful.

• Half-Elf: +2CHA and +1 to any other two stats (which should be DEX and INT, or DEX and CON if you’re more worried about survival). This along with Darkvision, Fey Ancestry and TWO bonus skills. Anyone thinking about a CHA multiclass or being the party face should strongly consider it.

• Half-Orc: +2STR, +1CON, better crits, Intimidation and negating death once a day. Only worth considering for STR builds.

• Human: +1 to all stats. If you rolled stats and have a lot of odd numbers, this could help, otherwise aim for...
• Human (Variant): Now we're talking. A bonus skill is always good, and a feat (suggestions later) is perfect for everyone. You’re no different.

• Kenku (Volo's): Nothing going on with this race that a Half-Elf couldn't give you, without the hassle of mimicking everything.

• Lizardfolk (Volo's): +2 CON and +1 WIS. The main draw of these guys is the permanent ‘Mage Armor’ AC, which is a bit better than studded leather. But I'm guessing swimming and biting won't come up too much.

• Tabaxi (Volo's): DEX and CHA, can’t complain. That bonus speed makes sure there's always something for you to smack on the field, or that you can flee safely. For those who want to run like the wind.

• Tiefling: CHA and INT. Could be better. Darkvision, fire resistance and bonus spells are good, though.
• Feral Tiefling (SCAG): This variant gives you +2DEX instead of +2CHA; now you have the perfect AT stats. Just watch for your bonus spells, as they will still rely on CHA. If you also manage to get the Winged variant, do it.

• Triton (Volo's): STR, CHA and CON, and the rest is water-oriented. Probably not.

You can't go wrong with a race that boosts DEX, whereas a race that doesn't boost DEX needs a strong reason to be picked. About darkvision: you definitely want a race with darkvision, but your party also dictates how important this is. If everyone sees in the dark, don’t be the guy who doesn’t. If there are some humans and halflings, though, it becomes less important.


WEAPON STYLES

Depending on your party and objective in the field of battle, you’ll pick one weapon over another. These are the ups and downs of each style. Obviously, these aren’t either/or; if you’re in melee and can’t handle it, for instance, moving to range is a good idea.

MELEE
• Rapier – d8 finesse, the standard single-weapon setup. Can’t go wrong with it. Even if you’re STR-based, you still need to use a finesse weapon to deliver Sneak Attack, and this is it.
• Shortsword (2) – d6 damage, but allows for eventual dual-wielding. Notice that Booming Blade won’t work with two weapons, though. You’ll only want to dual-wield when you’re facing high AC enemies and you’ll need some assurance in case your first attack misses. As a rule of thumb, if you know there’s less than 40% chance of hitting your opponent, you’re probably better off without Booming Blade and using two attacks instead.
• Shortsword + Dagger – Same as above, except you have a thrown weapon if needed. Season to taste.
• Whip – If you have the proficiency, it's d4 damage, but with reach. This makes a Booming Blade setup much more valuable against no-reach enemies, but you’ll need Spell Sniper to use the cantrip beyond 5 feet.

RANGE
• Shortbow – the standard range weapon, but worse damage than a light crossbow.
• Longbow – For elves and those who multiclassed Fighter/Ranger; d8 damage and the best weapon range in the game.
• Light crossbow – A bit more damage than the shortbow. If you’re taking Crossbow Expert, this is the standard choice for its good range.
• Hand crossbow – The only reason to use this over a light one is if you don’t want to drop your melee weapon while firing from it. Notice that you still need a free hand to reload it.
• Heavy crossbow – If you’re not small and you obtained proficiency with martial weapons somehow, this is as good as crossbows get damage and range-wise. Enjoy.

[Specter]

CLASS FEATURES
• Expertise – What makes you better than the rest skill-wise. Be focused: find out what you really want to do well, and focus on those things. The ‘roles’ section above should give you a good idea. At level 6, when you get two more, you should have a good idea of what is best for the game you’re playing.
• Sneak Attack – What makes you threatening on the battlefield (well, the main thing). You need a finesse/ranged weapon, and either advantage or an ally near your target to kick this in, so you need to be strategizing while your buddies are taking their turns. Attacking without this is generally a waste, so plan accordingly.
• Thieves’ Cant – If there’s another rogue in the party, you can talk in code all day easily. Otherwise, you’ll use this in some rare social settings.
• Cunning Action – Bonus action, dash, hide or disengage. The first is to either close in or move away from foes; fear no distance. The second removes you as a target from the field, gives you advantage on your next attack; the last is to avoid opportunity attacks, and most likely change targets/goad the enemy into triggering Booming Blade. All of these are very welcome to your sneak attacking self.
• Spellcasting: What makes you you, and not a Thief. Discussed below.
• Mage Hand Legerdemain: this makes you the best pickpocket in the game, and also the trapsmith least likely to hurt himself in the job. Value that sweet little spectral hand.
• Ability Score Improvements: DEX is the priority; you should have this maxed by level 10. After that come essential feats, then INT/CON, and then any filler feat you may want.
• Uncanny Dodge: Oh yeah. A critical hit becomes a regular hit, and a regular hit becomes a meh hit. Notice that if many enemies are targeting you with attacks, you’ll want to save this for the baddest among them. Valid not only for weapon attacks, but also spells like Fire Bolt and Chromatic Orb.
• Evasion: A failed DEX save gives you meh damage, and a successful one gives you no damage. Dragons have nothing on you, my son. To make the most out of this, stay behind cover as much as possible, especially if that cover is an enemy. Also, if the Sorcerer needs to drop a Wall of Fire, there will be no hard feelings if you’re in it.
• Magical Ambush: Now you can show those Wizards how to really Hold a Person. Any time you see a hiding place in the board, plan around it, because disadvantage on a save can really turn the tide for your party. The ‘spells’ section should give you good ideas on how to maximize this.
Your save DC is 8 + your casting stat + your proficiency bonus. For the sake of argument, let's assume you're a 9th-level Arcane Trickster with 12 INT, so that's 13. If you're casting Tasha's at a 9th-level Cleric with maxed WIS and proficiency on his save, he'd normally have 15% chance of failing his save. Throw in disadvantage, and it's a 27,75% chance.

This is, of course, considering someone good at the save. If you cast it at another Rogue that has only a +1 to WIS, that's 55% chance of failing normally... And 79,75% with Magical Ambush. You can imagine where it goes from here with higher INT and proficiency.
• Reliable Talent: Proficient skill rolls are never lower than 10, even with disadvantage! Under normal circumstances, that’s an effective +2.25 boost to your skills, and that requires no explanation.
• Versatile Trickster: If sneak attacking is a no-go or dudes have too much AC, rely on the good ol’ naughty hand. Just remember to have it cast before combat, if possible, or it will eat up your action.
• Blindsense: Melee invisible foes can’t hide when you’re nearby. You might also discover someone hidden without looking, but not much else comes in handy. They could have at least given it a bigger range.
• Slippery Mind: Free WIS saving throw proficiency? Don’t mind if I do! If you also took Resilient (CON), you are now proficient in all big three saves. Only Monks and Paladins have it better than us, folks!
• Spell Thief: This one is tricky to pull off; enemy casters will usually be proficient in their spellcasting saves, and it requires some way of knowing what spell is going to be cast, or you could end up with some junk knowledge in your pocket (or, if it’s of a higher level than you can cast, you’d just avoid the spell). But if you know your enemy will be casting a low-level spell, then you can turn his poison against him, or at least block him from casting it again. In general, save it for the nasty times or when you’re sure it will work. It’s only once a day!
• Elusive: No more advantage against you. Invisible foes and Barbarians hate you now. So let’s recap: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Mirror Image/Blur, and this. Who said Rogues can’t take a beating?
• Stroke of Luck: Turn a hit into a miss, or a failed ability check as a 20. It’s all about timing. Save it for the darkest hours.


SKILLS
Skill choices are forever, so plan your skill career early. When in doubt, be focused rather than all-over-the-place. This is meant as a general guideline: your intended roles should guide you further.

• Acrobatics – You will use this to avoid being grappled, so you should have it. Also, it governs balancing, avoiding specific effects like traps, and stunts.
• Athletics – Jumping, climbing and swimming. Not bad, but not fundamental to you, so you can take it or leave it. If you’re STR-focused, you want this expertised to shove and grapple as you should.
• Deception – If you have some CHA, let the Trickster in Arcane Trickster shine. Otherwise, someone else can deal with this.
• Insight – The “social perception”. Its value is directly related to the kind of campaign you’re playing; the more social encounters, the better. Fundamental for a face.
• Intimidation – This is the social skill that has the most downsides, and with good reason. But if you would play an intimidator, don’t let that stop you.
• Investigation – Figuring out how traps work, finding secret stuff, analyzing data and playing detective in general. If anyone should do it, it should be you.
• Perception – Seeing, hearing and smelling stuff in general. It will definitely save your life, especially when it comes to detecting enemies and traps. You don’t want to be the surprised guy.
• Performance – Only if your backstory really calls for it and you have a skill slot open.
• Persuasion – Take this to negotiate like a boss, if you intend to be the guy that does that kind of thing.
• Sleight of Hand – With an invisible Mage Hand that lets you pickpocket and plant objects, you should make the most out it with the proper skill.
• Stealth – Yes, definitely. This gives you the opportunity to sneak attack, steal, infiltrate, follow, avoid danger, and all the stuff which fundamentally makes you a rogue. It’s never a mistake to Expertise this, either.

NON-CLASS SKILLS
• Animal Handling – Even if this was a good skill, there’s probably someone better to do the job for you.
• Arcana – This is your trade, in one way or another, so proficiency here never hurts. Also notice that some magical traps are operated through this.
• History – For the brainiacs among you. Ask for as much information as possible.
• Medicine – Unless you have a passion for diagnosing disease, a healer’s kit will do the same thing as the main use of this skill, but without a check.
• Nature – Probably the least important knowledge skill, since so much of it overlaps with Survival. The good thing here is harvesting poisons.
• Religion – See ‘History’, above.
• Survival – With Expertise in this, you can make one fine survivalist. If your campaign is in wild lands, your group will appreciate it.


SPELLS

CANTRIPS
You get Mage Hand and two others at level 3, and another one at level 10. Notice your weapon damage will usually be higher than any cantrip damage, so only take a damage cantrip for when you can’t sneak attack and be done with it. At 9th level, you get Magical Ambush, so a cantrip with a save involved becomes a good offense against high-AC foes.

• Acid Splash - d6 damage, but you can target 2 close foes with it. Situationally decent.
• Blade Ward - There are niche situations where this can be good, but usually the Dodge action (or getting the hell out of the way) are better.
• Booming Blade – Yes, definitely. Take it. Immediately. This gives your single attack an extra d8 at levels 5, 11, and 17, and also discourages enemy movement by giving rider damage. With your bonus action Disengage, you can choose to lock the enemy down in melee or simply evade him and let him eat damage if he wants to attack you. Even archers want this for when some melee pest hinders their attacks.
• Chill Touch - d8 damage, good range, and no healing for the target for 1 round. If you’re planning on facing many undead, it could be worth a look.
• Control Flames - Mostly for roleplaying purposes. As for all cantrips in this category, only take it if you find it really cool.
• Create Bonfire - A little battlefield control paired with convenience.
• Dancing Lights - A bit fancier than Light, but requiring concentration and providing dim light. This is what you want if you have Darkvision and want to avoid sight penalties.
• Fire Bolt – 120 feet, which is more than your shortbow. Otherwise, it’s just damage.
• Friends – For party faces. Obviously, use it if you don’t care about animosity later on, or if you really need something done.
• Frostbite - A CON save for d6 damage, giving disadvantage on the foe’s next attack. This is better to discourage attackers than t give damage in itself. If you can’t Sneak Attack, this is nice.
• Green Flame Blade – The same damage increase as Booming Blade, but this time you should be looking for adjacent foes in the battlefield to make the most out of your attack. Not as synergetic with Cunning Action as BB, but very good nevertheless.
• Gust - Minor pushing, object-throwing and fluff. Pass.
• Infestation: Bad range, bad damage and a mild effect that will be more useless than useful. Whatever.
• Light - The utility of this over a torch is that a torch needs a free hand, while this can be cast at anything, anywhere. Still, you have few cantrips, so this is better left to other casters.
• Lightning Lure - Minor damage while pulling the enemy closer. If you have a good walking speed from Mobile or Half-Elf, this could seriously annoy the enemy, though.
• Mage Hand – All of our clan knows this, and we are the prime users of it. Outside of combat, this will help you disarm traps while standing comfortably behind a giant barbarian or far away. Pickpocket foes with little risk, and frame them with compromising evidence as well. In combat, Versatile Trickster gives you at-will advantage as a bonus action with the playful hand, which is great. Just remember to keep the hand cast, as it has a duration of one minute (and verbal components, which could ruin your surprise).
• Mending - Has its uses in breaking and entering, or if the DM insists on tearing the party's equipment.
• Message - Silent, precise and tactical communication, with good range. Great for dungeon exploring and sneaking.
• Minor Illusion – Free illusions forever is probably as good as it gets. There are many threads with uses of this, with alley screams and a chest of treasure being my favorites. If you’re creative, this is for you.
• Mold Earth - Some good uses of this include hiding treasure, bringing down walls and creating foxholes.
• Poison Spray - d12 damage is pretty neat, but the range is terrible.
• Prestidigitation – Someone with this can put out small fires and make food taste better. Impressed? Me either.
• Ray of Frost – A damage cantrip, but slowing enemies down has many uses, especially for archers who want to kite enemies.
• Shape Water - Mostly a thematical cantrip, which has the same flavor of Control Flames and a bit more utility. Iced drinks, baby!
• Shocking Grasp – If pressured in melee, Disengage.
• Sword Burst – If you’re surrounded by more than 3 enemies, this is good, but that’s not your everyday situation.
• Thunderclap - For this to be optimal, you need to be surrounded. Very similar to Sword Burst.
• Toll the Dead: Enemies are more often wounded than not, so the d12 damage should be easy to trigger. If I were to pick a cantrip to use when I can’t sneak attack, it would be this one.
• True Strike – No. “Not even if...?” No.

"I can’t be bothered to leaf through pages of cantrips, what do I pick?"
Mage Hand, Booming Blade and Minor Illusion. If you don’t care much for illusions, then Dancing Lights/Message.

1ST-LEVEL SPELLS
At level 3, you get three of these, two from the enchantment or illusion schools and one from any school. Choose it wisely, because it can only be traded by Enchantment/Illusion spells later on.

• Charm Person - You may get to use this in combat after Magical Ambush, but beforehand, save it for social scenarios. Even in society, you may be better off just persuading them to avoid animosity. Think of this as a last resort.
• Color Spray - Sleep is better.
• Disguise Self - For the social chameleon in you. The utility of this is directly proportional to how much you (like to) get into trouble, and considering you picked this class, I'll say quite a lot!
• Illusory Script - Nah.
• Silent Image - Kinda like Minor Illusion, but more illusionable. There is a bit of redundancy, but if you feel the need to create bigger, moving things, you'll like it.
• Sleep - At level 3, this is good (and it was great at level 1 for casters). But the more you progress, the more you will face enemies that couldn't care less about it, and you can't upcast it as well as full casters. So if you're gonna grab it, realize when it's become obsolete and trade it.
• Tasha's Hideous Laughter - A nice little debuff, especially after you get Magical Ambush. The basic utility is to remove someone from a fight temporarily; target the big boss, tell him a joke, finish the others in one or two turns and by the time you're done, he won't be so amused.

Any-school spell - Suggestions
• Find Familiar - So good. Scouting, another set of eyes, advantage on your attack every turn... if no one else has a familiar this is mandatory, and even if they do it's still awesome.
• Fog Cloud - Anyone with bonus action disengage can profit from a nice little area where they're invisible. Pop out, attack, disengage, go in again. With evasion coming in at level 7, you don't even fear area damage in there.
• Shield - I've always been a fan of this spell, but with Uncanny Dodge you already get a damage-reducing reaction. It's good, but you shouldn't feel too bad if you go for another option.

2ND-LEVEL SPELLS
• Blur - Disadvantage on all attacks against you? Oh yeah. Sometimes, it may be more advantageous to cast this than to disengage. Take that, archers and dudes blocking my way! By the time you get Elusive (if ever), this gets even better. Take care of that concentration, though.
• Crown of Madness - Not even Magical Ambush saves this extremely circumstancial, poorly-designed spell.
• Hold Person - If you pick your foes (in this case, the mentally challenged ones), you can finish an encounter very easily. On Magical Ambush? Even better.
• Invisibility - If any spell would be gold for this subclass, it would be this (and its older brother, Greater Invisibility). Hiding anywhere, being seen by no one, escaping combat, planting evidence in someone, being a magician, not being counterspelled... so much good stuff happening here.
• Magic Mouth - So situational it should be left to other casters, if they even want it.
• Mirror Image - Given your DEX, even your copies can be hard to bring down with their 13-15AC. Not as durable as Blur, but requires no concentration, something those without CON save proficiency can definitely appreciate.
• Nystul's Magic Aura - See 'Magic Mouth', above.
• Phantasmal Force - The spell's damage in itself is almost irrelevant, but creating an illusion only one person can see has obvious, sweet uses. Drive them crazy.
• Shadow Blade - Turn your damage into psychic damage, and add another 1d8 to it. Very good for melee. If you have darkvision, you can attack with advantage often, and if you don't at least you can cancel the disadvantage if you can't see.
• Suggestion - So good. Tailor this to your enemy. "Fight lying down so you don't get so tired" for the mountains of muscle, "save your spells for later" for the mages. And of course, it's just as good outside of combat. I personally recommend getting a feel for your DM’s style, as this spell can be interpreted very differently from one table to the other.

Any-school spell (level 8) - suggestions
• Blindness/Deafness - Solid little debuff. A blinded foe is attacked with advantage, attacks with disadvantage, and can’t target creatures with spells. How good is that?
• Cloud of Daggers - If you're of the grappling persuasion (or someone in your team is), this is amazing.
• Darkvision – For those without it who are tired of slowing the group down.
• Levitate - you could get away from melee... or make that smashing monster float helplessly. I personally prefer the second.
• Web - do you know what all restrained people have in common? They can all be sneak attacked in the face.

3RD-LEVEL SPELLS
• Catnap – Could be good, but you have few spells to choose it. Leave it to more dedicated casters.
• Enemies Abound – A strategy ruiner, this one makes your enemy target any creature randomly with his offense. Obviously, the bigger the enemy/teammates ratio, the more useful this will be.
• Fear - Oh yeah. Remember, if you're hiding, they will save with disadvantage. How good is imposing disadvantage on all attacks/skills and making enemies unable to approach you wasting actions dashing? You tell me. But remember, they need to see you for the frightened condition to be good (so come out of hiding after casting it).
• Hypnotic Pattern - Oh boy, charmed and incapacitated guys doing nothing but tripping in acid for one minute? What else do you want? If you get a good initiative to hide, you can potentially end an encounter with this. Also one of the few spells castable in a Silenced area.
• Major Image - Silent Image 3.0. If you liked just changing the visuals, imagine if you could add temperature, sound, smell, the whole package. Perfect for leading people where you want them to go, or lure them out as needed.
• Phantom Steed - For the cowboy in you. Not great, but the mount’s so fast that it's hard to say it's bad. Keep one handy for the hasty escapes.

Any-school spell (level 14) - suggestions
• Counterspell - Rogues in general don’t have many uses for their reaction, so this may come in handy to frustrate those enemy mages.
• Fireball - the classic area damage spell, now available to a rogue. The damage may seem mild at this point, but remember, hide and force disadvantage. Also, with two or more enemies caught in it, this may be more profitable than attacking.
• Fly - Very good for those who attack from range.
• Haste - Many will say this is mandatory for ATs, because it can grant you another sneak attack if you use the Ready action to attack. But I won't. Why? It's a concentration spell, and if you lose that concentration OR get dispelled, be ready to waste your next turn doing nothing. Still good, but far from gold.

4TH-LEVEL SPELLS (most of us won’t get this far, but...)
• Confusion - Compared to Hypnotic Pattern, this is not too good (I personally don't like uncertainty). Not bad, either.
• Greater Invisibility - Hiding anywhere, permanent disadvantage against you, and advantage (read: sneak attack) on all attacks against things that rely on sight? What else do you want?
• Hallucinatory Terrain - A cute illusion outside of combat. Think more in terms of affecting many people's lives.
• Phantasmal Killer - So Magical Ambush gives your foes a disadvantaged save only the first time they go through this. All other saves will be made normally. Considering this, I don't think the damage or the effect will be too impressive, especially since Fear already gives a frightening effect.

Any-school spell (level 20) - suggestions
Mobility? Dimension Door. Defense? Wall of Fire. Control? Evard's/ Watery Sphere. Shenanigans? Polymorph. As a 20th-level trickster, it's time you made your own decisions in life.


FEATS
Rogues have 6 Ability Score Improvements, and want to boost Dexterity and Intelligence. Therefore, you should have room for one or two feats. Only noteworthy mentions here.

Alert: Not being surprised and having gold initiative is never bad. Think of this as a ‘what-do-I-pick’ feat if you’re out of ideas.
Crossbow Expert: If you want to use a crossbow, take it at level 1/4 and never look back. A bonus attack and no up-close disadvantage fundamentally change the way your play, and for the best. After this, aim for Sharpshooter eventually.
• Defensive Duelist: As Shield, this is a bit redundant with Uncanny Dodge, but it’s an at-will, life-saving reaction, and that can’t hurt.
• Lucky: If you don't have any particular strategy in mind but don't feel like just increasing attributes, this should do the trick.
• Mobile: Extra 10 feet of speed? Check. Dash through difficult terrain (like friends' squares? Check. Avoiding OA after attacking someone? Check. This is a sweet package.
• Resilient (CON): You want this for keeping concentration, but also for dangerous saves like cold, necromancy and poison. If you’re planning for this, don’t be afraid to start with 13 or 15 in CON.
• Sentinel: If you want to enjoy another sneak attack every round, this is a solid way to do it. But remember foes may turn their attention to you instead of attacking allies, so keep your AC and Mirror Image/Blur updated if you’re taking it.
• Sharpshooter: Ignoring cover and distance is heavenly; the -5/+10 boost, however, should be used carefully, as you don’t want to miss your only attack in the round and deal 0 damage. If you have Crossbow Expert or an Extra Attack multiclass (or both), this goes up in value.
• Skulker: Traps and hidden enemies no longer have any bonus against your perception in dim light. Could be good.
• Spell Sniper: If you’re a madman for the whip, this is what you take. Booming Blade can go up to 10 feet, you ignore cover (so you can stand behind someone else comfortably) and you learn a new cantrip.
• Tough: If you’re already proficient in Constitution saves, this is straight up better than boosting the stat. Better taken late in the game than early.
• War Caster: The hands-full casting should pass you by, but the other two benefits are strong: advantage on concentration saves and opportunity attacks with spells. With this last one, you can Booming Blade fleeing foes for maximum damage, or even stall them with Tasha’s or Hold Person if you feel like it.

[Specter]

MULTICLASS

Some issues must be addressed concerning multiclassing. First of all, any multiclass should be weighed against losing Sneak Attack damage and potentially spells. Secondly, you should wait until Magical Ambush is available so you can enjoy your spells more.
These generic statements assume you have the required stats to multiclass; if you have neither STR nor CHA, for instance, then Paladin is obviously bad.

• Barbarian – Rage blocks spells, so that’s out. Reckless Attack would be good if it didn’t require STR attacks. Oh well.
• Bard – Bard generally gives you more skills, Expertise, Inspiration and spells. Everything is pretty solid and matches pretty well with AT’s abilities. I personally recommend Lore for more skills and magical secrets, unless you want another attack, in which case Valor/Swords. But really, no Bard subclass is a mistake.
• Cleric – This works better as a simple dip to obtain proficiencies, domain features and some timeless spells like Bless and Shield of Faith. Knowledge domain yields even more skills, and Trickery fits the bill while giving you a reliable way to get advantage on attacks.
• Druid – Turning into an animal has obvious sneaking advantages, but it won’t help you sneak attack. So focus on Land. I’d go Coast for the sweet spells. Pass Without Trace and Enhance Ability are your friends.
• Fighter – Anyone can enjoy a good Fighter multiclass, and you’re no different. Battlemaster gives sweet maneuvers to further annoy enemies, Champion gives absurd sneak attack crits, and Eldritch Knight gets you more spells/cantrips while improving your caster level. The other archetypes don’t match so nicely. Action Surge for casting a spell and sneaking in the same round? Yes, please.
• Monk – No spells and not as much martial prowess as Ranger or Fighter, but melee rogues might find it nice. Stunning Strike all the way, obviously. Open Hand for more combat trickery, Shadow for more roguish stuff, and Long Death if you plan on never dying. Stop before level 7, because Evasion is redundant.
• Paladin – Sneak Attack and Smite is an amusing nova combination. Vengeance screams ‘take me’ for that sweet advantage against one foe.
• Ranger – More skills, more spells (notably Pass Without Trace), more attacks, a fighting style and damage features. What’s not to like? Both Hunter and Gloom Stalker improve your killing methods considerably.
• Sorcerer – The main draw here other than the spell versatility is Metamagic, more specifically Subtle; now foes won’t know you cast a spell, which is helpful in both social and combat situations (great Magical Ambush synergy). If in doubt, go Draconic for that bonus AC.
• Warlock – The damage potential of Eldritch Blast doesn’t match with Sneak Attack, so be here for other reasons. The invocations are particularly helpful for a face/sneaky character as you should be, and short rest spells (hello, Hex) are a fine addition too. Fiend or Hexblade should be the best options for combat.
• Wizard – Just getting all the Wizard spell list unlocked instead of only Enc/Ill spells makes this all worthwhile. Most ATs will take Abjurer or Diviner, but melee ATs should always take Bladesinger; the combat synergy is just too good to pass.


GENERAL STRATEGY

WHEN THE BATTLE STARTS
Some preliminary questions to ask yourself are:
1) Which allies rely on me to do what?
2) Is if profitable to hide here?
3) Should I attack straightforwardly, or would a spell be more advantageous?

CUNNING ACTION
Unless you’re making an off-hand attack, you should always be putting Cunning Action to use. If the enemy’s far or you’re retreating, Dash. If you have a hiding spot to fire arrows/spells from, Hide. If you’re in trouble or you just Booming Bladed someone, Disengage.

MAGICAL AMBUSH
If you have a decent-to-high Intelligence, you can focus on spells that would otherwise be average for you, and fire away even at resilient foes with them with good chances of success. But even with an INT 0f 10, you can and should get some save spells; if you tailor them to the kinds of enemies you’re facing, you can be pretty confident your spells will land.

HOW TO PLAY AN AVERAGE-INT AT
Focus on spells that don’t rely on INT. “That’s it?” That’s it. But remember, you won’t make the most out Magical Ambush or Spell Thief, and every time you make an Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight with an INT of 8, a puppy dies.

1st level
Color Spray
Disguise Self
Illusory Script
Sleep

2nd level
Blur
Invisibility
Magic Mouth
Mirror Image
Nystul's Magic Aura

3rd level
Major Image
Phantom Steed

4th level
Greater Invisibility
Hallucinatory Terrain

HOW TO BE A STR ROGUE
1) Focus on STR, but have a decent DEX for skills and medium armor;
2) Take the Moderately Armored feat, wear a shield and a breastplate (don’t be silly to grab Half-Plate and have disadvantage on Stealth);
3) Grab a rapier for sneak attacking even without using DEX for attacks;
4) Expertise Athletics for grappling and shoving;
5) Season to taste with Shield Master, Fighter multiclassing and the like.


SAMPLE BUILDS

THE ARCANE TRICKSTER™
Half-Elf Arcane Trickster 20
ST8, DX20, CO16, IN18, WI10, CH14
ASI’s: DEX+4, IN+2, IN+2
Feats: Resilient (CON), Alert
Expertise: Acrobatics, Deception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Cantrips: Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Friends
Spells: 1 – Charm Person, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Disguise Self, Find Familiar; 2 – Invisibility, Mirror Image, Hold Person, Blindness; 3 – Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Counterspell; 4 – Greater Invisibility, Evard’s Black Tentacles

All-around build that should suit your rogue and face needs. Versatile for melee and range. Sick spell DC.

THE CROSSBOW KILLER
Variant Human Arcane Trickster 14/Champion 6
ST10, DX20, CO14, IN16, WI12, CH8
Starting feat: Crossbow Expert
ASI's: DEX +4, INT +2, Sharpshooter, Skulker
Expertise: Athletics, Perception, Stealth, Survival
Cantrips: Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Toll the Dead, Message
Spells: 1 – Silent Image, Disguise Self, Fog Cloud; 2 – Blur, Invisibility, Hold Person, Darkvision; 3 – Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Fly

If you want to play sniper, look no further. Hide away, then kill everything with sneak attack and three attacks per turn. The fighter archetype can go either way, but those massive sneaking crits are fun.

THE RINGLEADER
Feral Tiefling Arcane Trickster 11/Diviner Wizard 9
ST8, DX20, CO16, IN18, WI12, CH10
ASI’s: DEX+4, IN+1 CO+1, IN+2, Resilient (CON)
Expertise: Arcana, Investigation, Insight, Stealth
Cantrips: Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Friends, Message, Mending, Toll the Dead, Fire Bolt
Spells: 1 – Charm Person, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Disguise Self, Find Familiar; 2 – Invisibility, Mirror Image, Hold Person, Blindness; 3 – Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Counterspell; 4 – Greater Invisibility, Evard’s Black Tentacles
(Wizard) 1 – Absorb Elements, Alarm, Shield; 2 – Alter Self, Levitate, Mind Spike; 3 – Clairvoyance, Fireball, Fly; 4 – Banishment, Fire Shield; 5 – Dominate Person, Scrying

Even more casting goodness with the rogue package, you are getting the best of both worlds here. Save spells are massive here, given your vast selection. Utility is very present too. If all else goes wrong, you still have two Portent dice to have fun with.
__________________________________________________ ______________________


DETAILED BUILDING
I've written a second guide, dealing with how to build your character from level 1 to 20. It's on Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lUivlPXlwxZxQxWrJZ4Q39YJFNfWV_uH

This is it, for now. Magic items should be here in the future (suggestions welcome). Thank you.

[ZorroGames]

Makes Arcane Trickster understandable and more appealing for those rare sneaky characters I might choose to play. Gracias!

[TheUser]

I would like to point out that there is an amazing interaction that arcane tricksters capitalize on that you have missed:

Sentinel + Mirror Image

If an enemy attacks a mirror image you get to trigger sentinel which gets your sneak attack dice (unless attacking at disadvantage).

Since you get Mirror Image at level 7 Sentinel becomes a primo feat at level 8

Also obligatory Elven Accuracy mention (it's not in your feat list)

[DivisibleByZero]

Whip – d4 damage, but with reach. This makes a Booming Blade setup much more valuable against no-reach enemies, but you’ll need Spell Sniper to use the cantrip beyond 5 feet.
You'll also need to get proficiency somehow.


Shortbow – the standard range weapon for those without Crossbow Expert (you don’t want to eat up your bonus actions reloading). Good range, decent damage and available to all races.
Reloading doesn't cost you your bonus action. Loading the ammunition is part of the attack.


Blindsense: Melee invisible foes can’t hide when you’re nearby.
Unless they also have cover. Corner case, because they usually won't think they need cover if invisible, but all the same....

[BobZan]

I would like to point out that there is an amazing interaction that arcane tricksters capitalize on that you have missed:

Sentinel + Mirror Image

If an enemy attacks a mirror image you get to trigger sentinel which gets your sneak attack dice (unless attacking at disadvantage).

Since you get Mirror Image at level 7 Sentinel becomes a primo feat at level 8

Also obligatory Elven Accuracy mention (it's not in your feat list)

I wouldn't rule that as functional, unless a RAI Sage Advice says otherwise.

[DivisibleByZero]

I wouldn't rule that as functional, unless a RAI Sage Advice says otherwise.

Nor would I. Nor does the obvious RAI. They're still attacking you, they just hit an illusion instead.
Sentinel- When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you
Mirror Image- Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.
They made an attack with you as the target. Sentinel does not trigger.
I could see how some people might argue that the target is not in fact you, because it changed, according to MI's text. But the attack they made, and the target they chose, was targeting you.

[KorvinStarmast]

Seems to be something wrong here.
Scout/Thief

Skills you need: Stealth, Perception
Skills you want: Sleight of Hand
Stat to raise: Wisdom
Stealth and SoH are Dex based skills.

[BobZan]

Nor would I. Nor does the obvious RAI. They're still attacking you, they just hit an illusion instead.
Sentinel- When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you
Mirror Image- Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.
They made an attack with you as the target. Sentinel does not trigger.
I could see how some people might argue that the target is not in fact you, because it changed, according to MI's text. But the attack they made, and the target they chose, was targeting you.

I see that way aswell. Another thing I'd consider, Mirror Image creates duplicates of you, since you have Sentinel, won't they count as having it too?

[DivisibleByZero]

Seems to be something wrong here.
Scout/Thief

Stealth and SoH are Dex based skills.

Dex is obviously the Primary stat for all Rogues.
Those listed in the "Stat to Raise" section for the type/role is meant to convey secondary choices after Dex. That seemed obvious to me. Maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I thought.
Maybe he should make that more clear?


I see that way aswell. Another thing I'd consider, Mirror Image creates duplicates of you, since you have Sentinel, won't they count as having it too?
That would nullify it anyway, so I could get on board with that reasoning.

[alagomar]

Find Familiar's benefits to an Arcane Trickster are difficult to understate.

In addition to all the usual benefits like a scout, there are several creative ways to buff that up.

Need an ally for sneak attack? Your flyby owl can get you that at no risk to itself.

Need to watch a tunnel while you sneak the other way? Check in through its eyes every once and a while or just let you know if anything is coming to ambush you.

No one has Message or Sending in your low level party? While you scout ahead, have your familiar indicate when the coast is clear to your party.

Too worried you might get found while sneaking ahead? Probably not, you probably have Expertise in Stealth. But if it is too dangerous: PCs are expensive, Familiars are only 10gp.

One clever trick that worked as an Arcane Trickster came up during a heist we pulled on some cultists. They had a set of rings set behind a glass box that we couldn't seem to break into. It couldn't be unlocked, couldn't be smashed, etc. So, I simply dismissed my familiar and the next turn had it reappear within the box, since that was within 30 feet of me. The owl grabbed all the rings, vanished again, and reappeared outside.

[Mikal]

I'm surprised with no Elven Accuracy feat recommendations for elven/half-elven characters. Triple Advantage on an AT practically negates the need for TWF, letting you Booming Blade/GFB all day long, and it can be used to increase Dex or Int (Wis/Cha too, but those are secondary at best) while doing so.

EDIT: Also, even with the smaller amount of spell slots you get, Shadow Blade is a good spell to consider, as well as Absorb Elements.
With Shadow Blade you got a 2nd level illusion, provides a 2d8 or 3d8 Sneak Attack capable weapon for you with a good damage type, as well as possible advantage rider.
Even better if you MC into Bladesinger.
Or do you think it's too niche?

Absorb Elements is harder to justify without MCing since it's not illusion/enchantment, but it does help boost your SA up and, when combined with Uncanny Dodge, Shield, and Evasion, makes you pretty tough to take out in a single hit, and can be clutch if you say, get caught in a Fireball and still take half damage due to missing your save, and the damage is still enough to take you out cause you got hurt last turn.

[Specter]

I totally forgot about racial feats. Will do it later.


I would like to point out that there is an amazing interaction that arcane tricksters capitalize on that you have missed:

Sentinel + Mirror Image

If an enemy attacks a mirror image you get to trigger sentinel which gets your sneak attack dice (unless attacking at disadvantage).

Since you get Mirror Image at level 7 Sentinel becomes a primo feat at level 8

Also obligatory Elven Accuracy mention (it's not in your feat list)


Nor would I. Nor does the obvious RAI. They're still attacking you, they just hit an illusion instead.
Sentinel- When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you
Mirror Image- Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.
They made an attack with you as the target. Sentinel does not trigger.
I could see how some people might argue that the target is not in fact you, because it changed, according to MI's text. But the attack they made, and the target they chose, was targeting you.

This.


You'll also need to get proficiency somehow.

Reloading doesn't cost you your bonus action. Loading the ammunition is part of the attack.

Unless they also have cover. Corner case, because they usually won't think they need cover if invisible, but all the same....

- Oh yeah, whip proficiency.
- I meant a crossbow would take a bonus action to reload without the feat.


Seems to be something wrong here.
Scout/Thief

Stealth and SoH are Dex based skills.


Dex is obviously the Primary stat for all Rogues.
Those listed in the "Stat to Raise" section for the type/role is meant to convey secondary choices after Dex. That seemed obvious to me. Maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I thought.
Maybe he should make that more clear?

Yeah, this. DEX should always be the major stat anyway, so these others are the next best thing.

[Mikal]

Whip proficiency is doable with Bladesinger or Fighter multiclass, could put a note in for that?

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, this. DEX should always be the major stat anyway, so these others are the next best thing. I see your point, and maybe "secondary stat to raise" would make it more clear. By the way, nice job. :smallsmile:

[Biggstick]

I meant a crossbow would take a bonus action to reload without the feat.

Crossbows don't take a bonus action to reload though. It's part of the action you're making to Attack, similar to how one "reloads" an arrow for a Short/Longbow. A Rogue who's using a Crossbow of any sort without the CE feat is still able to use their Cunning Action on turns they Attack with a Crossbow.

[JellyPooga]

A note on Dancing Lights;

For Rogues without Darkvision, Light is necessary to provide adequate illumination. For Rogues that have Darkvision, Dancing Lights is the superior spell because it also provides adequate illumination. Assuming your table is running darkness/darkvision correctly, a character with Darkvision still needs dim light to avoid penalties and Dancing Lights provides that out to a maximum range of 120ft, which is three times that which Light provides. Perhaps only those with Superior Darkvision appreciate that extra range the most, but dim light in a 10ftx80ft "corridor" with effective bright light for the first 60ft
and the option of extending the dim light a further 40ft at the cost of replacing bright light with dim on your end by the same amount is generally better than effective bright light to 40ft and dim to a further 20ft.

Simply put, DL has a shorter duration and concentration is required because it's a better spell. Especially if you have Darkvision.

[Specter]

A note on Dancing Lights;

For Rogues without Darkvision, Light is necessary to provide adequate illumination. For Rogues that have Darkvision, Dancing Lights is the superior spell because it also provides adequate illumination. Assuming your table is running darkness/darkvision correctly, a character with Darkvision still needs dim light to avoid penalties and Dancing Lights provides that out to a maximum range of 120ft, which is three times that which Light provides. Perhaps only those with Superior Darkvision appreciate that extra range the most, but dim light in a 10ftx80ft "corridor" with effective bright light for the first 60ft
and the option of extending the dim light a further 40ft at the cost of replacing bright light with dim on your end by the same amount is generally better than effective bright light to 40ft and dim to a further 20ft.

Simply put, DL has a shorter duration and concentration is required because it's a better spell. Especially if you have Darkvision.

Good call.


Crossbows don't take a bonus action to reload though. It's part of the action you're making to Attack, similar to how one "reloads" an arrow for a Short/Longbow. A Rogue who's using a Crossbow of any sort without the CE feat is still able to use their Cunning Action on turns they Attack with a Crossbow.

Oh yeah, totally missed that. I got it confused with something else.

[TheUser]

To everyone jumping out of their own minds to contend with the Sentinel Mirror Image combo the key word is target
yes the enemy is targeting you but mirror image forces them to target an image RAW it's 100% functional.

even the narrative modality of this combination makes sense

they enemy is dropping it's guard to attack what it thinks is you, but it's not attacking you, it's attacking a phantom and you capitalize on the opening.

(The image does not have sentinel because it does not have your abilities or even your stats, it's an illusion)

I mean I get that people don't like the idea of a single cool interaction counteracted by any number of AoE damage abilities but I'm getting pretty tired of people yelling

"THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY POSSIBLE" because they themselves don't like that the interaction exists despite RAW making it 100% possible

read the abilities, the operative words being "target" and how mirror image changes the "target" of an attack directed at you to one of the images.

[DivisibleByZero]

That, and no one was jumping out of their minds or yelling.
Don't be so dramatic.

edit:
OK, the "that" I was referring to was apparently deleted.

[Mikal]

That, and no one was jumping out of their minds or yelling.
Don't be so dramatic.

edit:
OK, the "that" I was referring to was apparently deleted.

Apologies. I was re-reading the spell description, and, by a RAW interpretation there may be a point there, so didn't want to jump into that can of worms since I was now conflicted.

EDIT: Mainly that Sentinel does say anytime it targets something other than you, and Mirror Image does say the attack is now targeted elsewhere... which means that the opponents intent to target you may or may not matter.

This also means you can use redirect attack and do some weird sentinel shenanigans I think. Have to read further...

[BobZan]

To everyone jumping out of their own minds to contend with the Sentinel Mirror Image combo the key word is target
yes the enemy is targeting you but mirror image forces them to target an image RAW it's 100% functional.

even the narrative modality of this combination makes sense

they enemy is dropping it's guard to attack what it thinks is you, but it's not attacking you, it's attacking a phantom and you capitalize on the opening.

(The image does not have sentinel because it does not have your abilities or even your stats, it's an illusion)

I mean I get that people don't like the idea of a single cool interaction counteracted by any number of AoE damage abilities but I'm getting pretty tired of people yelling

"THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY POSSIBLE" because they themselves don't like that the interaction exists despite RAW making it 100% possible

read the abilities, the operative words being "target" and how mirror image changes the "target" of an attack directed at you to one of the images.

If they are your duplicates, do they count as having Sentinel aswell? I'd say yes. They are a copy of you.

[Mikal]

If they are your duplicates, do they count as having Sentinel aswell? I'd say yes. They are a copy of you.

A copy that can't make attacks, take actions, do reactions, and the ACs are also different, with no HP.
Personally, I think saying that these copies have access to your abilities such as Sentinel opens up a stupid can of worms best left shut.

I'd also say if that was the DMs reasoning I'd at best give them a look and maybe bop them with a rolled up piece of paper, depending on how well I knew them.

[DivisibleByZero]

Apologies. I was re-reading the spell description, and, by a RAW interpretation there may be a point there, so didn't want to jump into that can of worms since I was now conflicted.

Yes, and I agreed that it could be read that way earlier.
The problem I'm seeing is that User is taking one extreme and hard lined RAW reading which is quite obviously not RAI, and ignoring the opposing extreme and hard lined reading that it creates a duplicate of you.
If his interpretation is RAW, then so is the one claiming your duplicate counts as having Sentinel. Nothing says that it doesn't, and as a duplicate it may be interpreted that way.

If his hard line reading is acceptable, so is the opposite. So his claims that we're "jumping out of [our] own minds" and "yelling" when we are doing neither are both ridiculous.

[Mikal]

Yes, and I agreed that it could be read that way earlier.
The problem I'm seeing is that User is taking one extreme and hard lined RAW reading which is quite obviously not RAI, and ignoring the opposing extreme and hard lined reading that it creates a duplicate of you.
If his interpretation is RAW, then so is the one claiming your duplicate counts as having Sentinel. Nothing says that it doesn't, and as a duplicate it may be interpreted that way.

If his hard line reading is acceptable, so is the opposite. So his claims that we're "jumping out of [our] own minds" and "yelling" when we are doing neither are both ridiculous.

Yeah that last part was a little hyperbolic of them.

[TheUser]

Yes, and I agreed that it could be read that way earlier.
The problem I'm seeing is that User is taking one extreme and hard lined RAW reading which is quite obviously not RAI, and ignoring the opposing extreme and hard lined reading that it creates a duplicate of you.
If his interpretation is RAW, then so is the one claiming your duplicate counts as having Sentinel. Nothing says that it doesn't, and as a duplicate it may be interpreted that way.

If his hard line reading is acceptable, so is the opposite. So his claims that we're "jumping out of [our] own minds" and "yelling" when we are doing neither are both ridiculous.

I love how reading the words in the rule book is "taking one extreme"

where as somehow rationalizing that an illusion with a seperate AC and no way to facilitate attacks having sentinel is not extreme in the slightest....

[DivisibleByZero]

I love how reading the words in the rule book is "taking one extreme"

where as somehow rationalizing that an illusion with a seperate AC and no way to facilitate attacks having sentinel is not extreme in the slightest....

It is an extreme. They targeted you. The spell confuses them and makes them hit an illusion. But you were the target. So going to the other extreme shouldn't be so unthinkable to you.

[jaappleton]

Pretty damn fine work as always, Specter.

Though, for the sake of completeness... Not that its any good for an AT...

You missed Tortle. :smalltongue:

[the secret fire]

EDIT: Also, even with the smaller amount of spell slots you get, Shadow Blade is a good spell to consider, as well as Absorb Elements.
With Shadow Blade you got a 2nd level illusion, provides a 2d8 or 3d8 Sneak Attack capable weapon for you with a good damage type, as well as possible advantage rider.
Even better if you MC into Bladesinger.
Or do you think it's too niche?

Shadow Blade is incredible for an AT. It gives you a weapon as a bonus action if you are unarmed (great for sudden assassinations and such), that weapon grants 1d8 more damage than a rapier, it does psychic damage (suck it, barbarians), can be thrown and recovered with a bonus action, and grants automatic advantage in dimly lit or dark areas, which are quite common. It is an absolutely great spell for an AT, good enough that I would call it almost an automatic choice for ATs who want to focus on melee.

[TheUser]

It is an extreme. They targeted you. The spell confuses them and makes them hit an illusion. But you were the target. So going to the other extreme shouldn't be so unthinkable to you.

Except that the spell doesn't force them to "hit" anything (that would be drunken master monks)

it forces them to "target" an illusion

that means sentinel goes off, as much as you'd like to think otherwise the precise wording of both indicates that sentinel goes off. The "duplicates" do not have sentinel; the spell indicates what the duplicates do and are capable of doing and what abilities they have; at no point in time does it indicate that the duplicates gain your feats and features.

you misunderstanding rules and then conflating it into an argument is 100% on you.

[DivisibleByZero]

you misunderstanding rules and then conflating it into an argument is 100% on you.

I'm not misunderstanding anything.
I know what it says. I was the first one to say that I understand how it could be read that way by someone.
I also know that how you're claiming it to work is quite obviously 100% not what was intended. I also believe that RAI is more important than RAW, and that interpretations such as yours taking a hard line stance on RAW when the RAI is obviously opposing makes things worse, not better.

I was defending the way that you read it, and offering an opposing view. Then you said we were going out of our minds and yelling, when we were doing neither. Now you're attacking me. Get off your high horse, please.

[TheUser]

I'm not misunderstanding anything.
I know what it says. I was the first one to say that I understand how it could be read that way by someone.
I also know that how you're claiming it to work is quite obviously 100% not what was intended. I also believe that RAI is more important than RAW, and that interpretations such as yours taking a hard line stance on RAW when the RAI is obviously opposing makes things worse, not better.

I was defending the way that you read it, and offering an opposing view. Now you're attacking me. Get off your high horse, please.

The irony is palpable

You're supposition that you have a full understanding of what is RAI and that somehow others do not is as high as a horse can get I'm afraid. I'm not trying to high road you, I'm trying to show you that if english is a common language and two people are using the same set of rules then the conclusion becomes rather clear that sentinel functions with mirror image.

I didn't attack you. I simply pointed out the flaws in what you wrote. You wrote that mirror image forces attacks to "hit" duplicates, when in fact it forces them to "target" duplicates when they attack,

I think you need to step back from your emotional state and take a breather. I can see you're getting worked up and imagining attacks where none exist.

[Specter]

Pretty damn fine work as always, Specter.

Though, for the sake of completeness... Not that its any good for an AT...

You missed Tortle. :smalltongue:

I don't have ToA, so I don't even know the stats and such.


Shadow Blade is incredible for an AT. It gives you a weapon as a bonus action if you are unarmed (great for sudden assassinations and such), that weapon grants 1d8 more damage than a rapier, it does psychic damage (suck it, barbarians), can be thrown and recovered with a bonus action, and grants automatic advantage in dimly lit or dark areas, which are quite common. It is an absolutely great spell for an AT, good enough that I would call it almost an automatic choice for ATs who want to focus on melee.

Shadow Blade is, indeed, great.

[trctelles]

Add a color scheme! This guide is great, but with a proper color scheme, you'll make it amazing! It will be easier to find the better options without having to read the hole guide

[xroads]

Need an ally for sneak attack? Your flyby owl can get you that at no risk to itself.

Not without some risk. Flyby means it can leave without provoking an attack of opportunity. But in order to provide it's master with an opportunity for a sneak attack, it has to stay adjacent to the enemy. So it can't leave and provide an opportunity.

Having said that, flyby would allow it to flee if it draws too much aggro. So still a solid choice.

[Specter]

Add a color scheme! This guide is great, but with a proper color scheme, you'll make it amazing! It will be easier to find the better options without having to read the hole guide

As I said in the 'spoiler' section before the guide, I'm not interested in making a color scheme. Most of the posts in the color guides are 'I think X should be purple, not red, and Y should be blue, not gold.' Blech.


Not without some risk. Flyby means it can leave without provoking an attack of opportunity. But in order to provide it's master with an opportunity for a sneak attack, it has to stay adjacent to the enemy. So it can't leave and provide an opportunity.

Having said that, flyby would allow it to flee if it draws too much aggro. So still a solid choice.

The only downside of familiar help is that the enemy might target it, but if the enemy wants to waste an attack on a familiar, more money for me.

[Dr. Cliché]

As I said in the 'spoiler' section before the guide, I'm not interested in making a color scheme. Most of the posts in the color guides are 'I think X should be purple, not red, and Y should be blue, not gold.' Blech.

The thing is though, having colour makes the guide a lot easier on the eyes.

When it's all monochrome, everything just blurs together and it becomes a lot more awkward to read.



Any-school spell (level 8) - suggestions
...
• Shadow Blade - Turn your damage into psychic damage, and add another 1d8 to it. Very good for melee. Particularly recommended if you have darkvision, so you can attack with advantage often.

While I agree with your rating, Shadow Blade is an illusion spell - so you're free to take it as one of your standard spells. You don't need to waste your 'any-school' slot on it.

[Saggo]

Not without some risk. Flyby means it can leave without provoking an attack of opportunity. But in order to provide it's master with an opportunity for a sneak attack, it has to stay adjacent to the enemy. So it can't leave and provide an opportunity.

Having said that, flyby would allow it to flee if it draws too much aggro. So still a solid choice.

You could make Sneak Attack from an adjacent familiar work if you used Ready, though Help and Advantage would give it too and would be the better tactic.

[polymphus]

The OP says there's a halfling subrace called 'Whisper' -- did you mean Ghostwise?

[Specter]

The thing is though, having colour makes the guide a lot easier on the eyes.

When it's all monochrome, everything just blurs together and it becomes a lot more awkward to read.

While I agree with your rating, Shadow Blade is an illusion spell - so you're free to take it as one of your standard spells. You don't need to waste your 'any-school' slot on it.

Eventually I will add colors, I guess.
Also good call on Shadow Blade.


You could make Sneak Attack from an adjacent familiar work if you used Ready, though Help and Advantage would give it too and would be the better tactic.

Yeah, as a Rogue I find that you need to use the Ready action more often than other classes.


The OP says there's a halfling subrace called 'Whisper' -- did you mean Ghostwise?

I have no idea where I got that from. Derp.

[Nadlor]

Not without some risk. Flyby means it can leave without provoking an attack of opportunity. But in order to provide it's master with an opportunity for a sneak attack, it has to stay adjacent to the enemy. So it can't leave and provide an opportunity.

I was under the impression that the "within 5 feet of you" was a restriction for the Help action itself, but not for the attack with advantage. So the owl has to be 5 feet from the enemy when doing the help action, but not necessarily when the subsequent attack with advantage is made. Therefore, the owl can move to the enemy, use the help action (when within 5 feet) and then it is set that "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage" (so the owl can move again out of reach without removing this "vulnerability", which is now only time dependent and unaffected by the familiar's distance).

Mike Mearls even stated that this was the correct interpretation (not that it makes it official). Has there been any official change in this regard lately?

[Specter]

I was under the impression that the "within 5 feet of you" was a restriction for the Help action itself, but not for the attack with advantage. So the owl has to be 5 feet from the enemy when doing the help action, but not necessarily when the subsequent attack with advantage is made. Therefore, the owl can move to the enemy, use the help action (when within 5 feet) and then it is set that "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage" (so the owl can move again out of reach without removing this "vulnerability", which is now only time dependent and unaffected by the familiar's distance).

Mike Mearls even stated that this was the correct interpretation (not that it makes it official). Has there been any official change in this regard lately?

FWIW, that's how I'd rule it too.

[Mikal]

Not without some risk. Flyby means it can leave without provoking an attack of opportunity. But in order to provide it's master with an opportunity for a sneak attack, it has to stay adjacent to the enemy. So it can't leave and provide an opportunity.

No it doesn't. The 5 ft. limitation is only for the Help action to be usable. Anyone can easily go into range, do Help, then move out without removing the advantage Help provided.

This is why the Mastermind ability that extends Help to 30 ft. is useful in combat- It allows one rogue to give another advantage in combat without having to be within melee range, or to provide it to say a Paladin looking to Smite.

[Crgaston]

Here’s a Sage Advice link re:Help, proximity and movement. The Flyby Owl Advantage is legit.

To make a melee Attack against the owl, the target would have to ready an action. It’s not OP. As noted above, the Mastermind can toss out Help with a 30’ range as a bonus Action at will, and the Inquisitive and Swashbuckler gab get SA without even having to have advantage.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/03/help-action-2/

[Silberluchs]

It may not apply very often, but an Arcane Trickster going the social infiltrator route (and that works well with the Illusion focus, of course) could consider a 1 level dip in hexblade warlock, which would allow for attacks based on Charisma. That likely turns Cha into a more important attribute than Dex, for such a character. Mind you, I would still not neglect Dex, but with expertise on critical skills, you can likely get away with as low a score as 14, and just max Cha first. The Dex 14 would also intersect nicely with the free medium armour proficiency that hexblade gives. :)

[Stormcrownn]

I'm a little confused by the sample build for 11 Rogue / 9 Wizard.

There's 13 spells listed for the Rogue, which is the same spell list as the Level 20 Arcane Trickster.

Is that intentional?

I'm mainly curious about the 3rd/4th/5th level spells.

[Aleister VII]

Amazing guide, I'm currently thinking how should I make my first rogue PC, I was considering just making an assassin and ambush like crazy but after reading the guide AT seems a lot more appealing to me specially the familiar strategy and spamming BB with a Wood elf extra speed maybe even add mobile just to troll my foes even more xD
The shenanigans I can pull out with minor illusion are endless and I think o can get some mileage out of the improved mage hand in any campaign with big cities and disarm traps or whatever, maybe picking the lock of a chest from distance and then send my familiar to retrieve the item that was inside or something like that.

Magical ambush however seems slightly lackluster to me.

Needless to mention invisibility and it's greater brother, I'm a little curious about fog cloud as I usually didn't pay attention to it since it also obscures my vision or it doesn't? Not quite sure about that.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

First post here! And I love the guide. I'm fairly new to D&D 5e (Played 3e a long time ago.) and this guide has been immensely helpful in creating a viable character for a relative newbie like myself. Had I not read it I'd probably have fudged my character and gotten bored. Your post helped me realize the potential arcane trickster has.

The build I went with was half elf arcane trickster/bladesinger with sword coast cantrips. Being part wizard affords me the ability to learn spells outside of the PHB +1 for adventurers league, which is a huge bonus. Also ritual spells can be literal lifesavers and you don't have to burn your spell slots. (Hello identify, detect magic and alarm!)

Half elf charlatan
AC: 19 (Mage armor is 13 +4 dex, bracers of defense +2. Boosted to 22 with blade song and 27 with shield, + mirror image + uncanny dodge when I actually do get hit)
AT5/BS4
STR: 8
DEX: 18( +2 dex ASI)
CON: 14 (+1 from resilient)
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 12
I only kind of regret putting 2 points in CHA because I've ended up being the party face because my regular group doesn't have a bard, and the warlock is GOO who doesn't understand boundaries when speaking to people telepathically and reading their minds...
Sneak attack: 3D6

Skills: Sleight of hand, stealth, acrobatics, arcana, investigation (double) perception (double), deception, performance (bladesinger), persuasion, thieves tools, forgery kit, disguise kit. (Fake identities and costumes for the whole party!)

At level 4 I took resilient as my first feat to become proficient in con saves. Second ASI was +dex.
Weapon: +1 faction weapons (rapier and hand crossbow, of course)
Magic items: Bracers of defense, winged boots (So good. Seriously...I don't know what I did before I got these). Headband of intellect is on my wishlist, as is ring of spell storing!

Cantrips: Message, prestidigitation, minor illusion, mage hand, booming blade, ray of frost (If I need to slow someone down a bit. It's been handy situationally.)
Spell slots:
1st level: 4 (4 Arcane trickster spells: Tasha's hideous laughter, sleep, disguise self, and silent image. Wizard Spells: Fog Cloud, Find Familiar (as ritual) shield, absorb elements, feather fall, mage armor until I can get +2 studded leather, + everything else I can get my hands on to copy)
2nd level: 3 (Mirror image, shadow blade, blur, darkness, suggestion, levitate, spider climb, cloud of daggers, invisibility, enlarge/reduce, rope trick, etc...I found a lot of spellbooks. Now I'm poor.)
3rd level: 2 (Can't cast 3rd level spells till 5th level wizard, but plan on using haste, thunderstep, counterspell and some other 3rd level magic trickery. Right now I just use them to upcast shadow blade to a 3D8)

My damage is generally 2/3D8 (sb) + 1D8 (bb) + 3D6 (sa) +4 + 2D8 when they move, and I attack with advantage on 9/10 attacks from familiar or the lighting situation in the area. I'm often hitting high 20's to mid 30's at this level, 50's to low 60's on a crit.

At end game I'll be able to cast SB with a 5th level slot for 4D8 + 3 D8 booming blade + 6D6 sneak attack die. (60 damage on a bad roll. 100+ on a crit)

The way I plan on building this towards AL endgame content is either AT11/BS9 for level 5 spells (Bigby's hand! Steel wind strike!!!), or AT12/BS8 for upcasted 3rd and 4th level spells and final ASI (Probably either lucky, mage slayer or warcaster to assassinate enemy casters)

The only dead/tough levels I've had where I felt underpowered compared to others were 4-6, where our variant human ranger with sharpshooter/crossbow expert was spamming out 3D6+39 damage per turn before hunters mark, and when our half orc zealot barbarian/champion was critting at least once every other turn.

It's been incredibly fun so far. I find all the traps, the loot, and give tactical advantage to my party members. Enemy has the high ground? Carry the halfing paladin to the top of the 60 foot cliff so he can fight the ogres throwing rocks down at us and cast spiderclimb on the barbarian so they can get up there. I've flown around the battlefield carrying a gnome wizard who was spamming magic missile like a machine gun. I've used Tasha's hideous laughter on enemies and made them fall off of rooftops to their death, and cast levitate to lift the big bad out of the way while we single out weaker targets first. There's also been times when I've been the default party tank where I've dismissed shadow blade to throw on blur and mirror image. My rogue may not be the single best in any one thing at my current level, but he's the swiss army knife of the group. Usually 2nd best damage in a group of 6/7 at my level. And the skills! So many skills!

[Specter]

Amazing guide, I'm currently thinking how should I make my first rogue PC, I was considering just making an assassin and ambush like crazy but after reading the guide AT seems a lot more appealing to me specially the familiar strategy and spamming BB with a Wood elf extra speed maybe even add mobile just to troll my foes even more xD
The shenanigans I can pull out with minor illusion are endless and I think o can get some mileage out of the improved mage hand in any campaign with big cities and disarm traps or whatever, maybe picking the lock of a chest from distance and then send my familiar to retrieve the item that was inside or something like that.

Magical ambush however seems slightly lackluster to me.

Needless to mention invisibility and it's greater brother, I'm a little curious about fog cloud as I usually didn't pay attention to it since it also obscures my vision or it doesn't? Not quite sure about that.

Fog Cloud makes you blind inside it, yes, but that shouldn't be a problem if you only end your turn there. In that case, the only thing enemies can do is ready an action to attack you, but that leaves out their bonus action and reaction.

Also, it's good to have if enemies have the upper hand (like if they're flying or sniping) to level the playing field.


I'm a little confused by the sample build for 11 Rogue / 9 Wizard.

There's 13 spells listed for the Rogue, which is the same spell list as the Level 20 Arcane Trickster.

Is that intentional?

I'm mainly curious about the 3rd/4th/5th level spells.

I'm not sure, I'll check it out later.


First post here! And I love the guide. I'm fairly new to D&D 5e (Played 3e a long time ago.) and this guide has been immensely helpful in creating a viable character for a relative newbie like myself. Had I not read it I'd probably have fudged my character and gotten bored. Your post helped me realize the potential arcane trickster has.

The build I went with was half elf arcane trickster/bladesinger with sword coast cantrips. Being part wizard affords me the ability to learn spells outside of the PHB +1 for adventurers league, which is a huge bonus. Also ritual spells can be literal lifesavers and you don't have to burn your spell slots. (Hello identify, detect magic and alarm!)

Half elf charlatan
AC: 19 (Mage armor is 13 +4 dex, bracers of defense +2. Boosted to 22 with blade song and 27 with shield, + mirror image + uncanny dodge when I actually do get hit)
AT5/BS4
STR: 8
DEX: 18( +2 dex ASI)
CON: 14 (+1 from resilient)
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 12
I only kind of regret putting 2 points in CHA because I've ended up being the party face because my regular group doesn't have a bard, and the warlock is GOO who doesn't understand boundaries when speaking to people telepathically and reading their minds...
Sneak attack: 3D6

Skills: Sleight of hand, stealth, acrobatics, arcana, investigation (double) perception (double), deception, performance (bladesinger), persuasion, thieves tools, forgery kit, disguise kit. (Fake identities and costumes for the whole party!)

At level 4 I took resilient as my first feat to become proficient in con saves. Second ASI was +dex.
Weapon: +1 faction weapons (rapier and hand crossbow, of course)
Magic items: Bracers of defense, winged boots (So good. Seriously...I don't know what I did before I got these). Headband of intellect is on my wishlist, as is ring of spell storing!

Cantrips: Message, prestidigitation, minor illusion, mage hand, booming blade, ray of frost (If I need to slow someone down a bit. It's been handy situationally.)
Spell slots:
1st level: 4 (4 Arcane trickster spells: Tasha's hideous laughter, sleep, disguise self, and silent image. Wizard Spells: Fog Cloud, Find Familiar (as ritual) shield, absorb elements, feather fall, mage armor until I can get +2 studded leather, + everything else I can get my hands on to copy)
2nd level: 3 (Mirror image, shadow blade, blur, darkness, suggestion, levitate, spider climb, cloud of daggers, invisibility, enlarge/reduce, rope trick, etc...I found a lot of spellbooks. Now I'm poor.)
3rd level: 2 (Can't cast 3rd level spells till 5th level wizard, but plan on using haste, thunderstep, counterspell and some other 3rd level magic trickery. Right now I just use them to upcast shadow blade to a 3D8)

My damage is generally 2/3D8 (sb) + 1D8 (bb) + 3D6 (sa) +4 + 2D8 when they move, and I attack with advantage on 9/10 attacks from familiar or the lighting situation in the area. I'm often hitting high 20's to mid 30's at this level, 50's to low 60's on a crit.

At end game I'll be able to cast SB with a 5th level slot for 4D8 + 3 D8 booming blade + 6D6 sneak attack die. (60 damage on a bad roll. 100+ on a crit)

The way I plan on building this towards AL endgame content is either AT11/BS9 for level 5 spells (Bigby's hand! Steel wind strike!!!), or AT12/BS8 for upcasted 3rd and 4th level spells and final ASI (Probably either lucky, mage slayer or warcaster to assassinate enemy casters)

The only dead/tough levels I've had where I felt underpowered compared to others were 4-6, where our variant human ranger with sharpshooter/crossbow expert was spamming out 3D6+39 damage per turn before hunters mark, and when our half orc zealot barbarian/champion was critting at least once every other turn.

It's been incredibly fun so far. I find all the traps, the loot, and give tactical advantage to my party members. Enemy has the high ground? Carry the halfing paladin to the top of the 60 foot cliff so he can fight the ogres throwing rocks down at us and cast spiderclimb on the barbarian so they can get up there. I've flown around the battlefield carrying a gnome wizard who was spamming magic missile like a machine gun. I've used Tasha's hideous laughter on enemies and made them fall off of rooftops to their death, and cast levitate to lift the big bad out of the way while we single out weaker targets first. There's also been times when I've been the default party tank where I've dismissed shadow blade to throw on blur and mirror image. My rogue may not be the single best in any one thing at my current level, but he's the swiss army knife of the group. Usually 2nd best damage in a group of 6/7 at my level. And the skills! So many skills!

Hey, thanks! Glad you're enjoying yourself.

[clem]

Nice guide. There's a few aspects that might be worth adding to it:

Race: Bugbear, +DEX and bonus damage on a surprise attack.
8th-level spells: Misty Step is pretty useful for the tactically-minded rogue.
Feat: Lucky and Ritual Caster from PHB. Also some of the racial feats in XGtE including Squat Nimbleness, Fey Teleportation, and Fade Away

[Kurald Galain]

French adjectives go after the noun, so it would be Filou Magique :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

I haven’t grabbed MtoF yet but... can their ‘auto-subtle’ Mage Hand work with Arcane Trickster abilities?

[Specter]

Nice guide. There's a few aspects that might be worth adding to it:

Race: Bugbear, +DEX and bonus damage on a surprise attack.
8th-level spells: Misty Step is pretty useful for the tactically-minded rogue.
Feat: Lucky and Ritual Caster from PHB. Also some of the racial feats in XGtE including Squat Nimbleness, Fey Teleportation, and Fade Away

Nice tips.


French adjectives go after the noun, so it would be Filou Magique :smallbiggrin:

Really? Damn, I even asked a friend. Guess it's called Trickster Magic now.


I haven’t grabbed MtoF yet but... can their ‘auto-subtle’ Mage Hand work with Arcane Trickster abilities?

I don't get it, could you elaborate?

[Wasp]

Lovely guide. One question though: Don't Deep Gnomes have +1 DEX not CON? I don't have any books in front of me, but I remember several discussions where people said it was DEX.

[jaappleton]

First, Specter, as always, excellent work.

I wanted to make a possible note regarding Blindness / Deafness, and Magical Ambush.

If the creature is blinded, aren't you basically always hidden from it? Wouldn't the saving throw always be made at Disadvantage?

[AvvyR]

Just because I happen to be playing one right now, I'd like to add that for melee AT's dipping Wizard, War Wizard from XGtE is also an outstanding choice.

DEX+INT for initiative, and Arcane Deflection is a resourceless baby-Shield and save boost. Melee AT's usually stick to cantrips anyway. Plus you don't get into sticky racial restrictions for Bladesinger.

[jaappleton]

Just because I happen to be playing one right now, I'd like to add that for melee AT's dipping Wizard, War Wizard from XGtE is also an outstanding choice.

DEX+INT for initiative, and Arcane Deflection is a resourceless baby-Shield and save boost. Melee AT's usually stick to cantrips anyway. Plus you don't get into sticky racial restrictions for Bladesinger.

Its especially considering just for the +4 bonus to a saving throw.

The +2 to AC? That's small enough where I think that Uncanny Dodge is a better use of a reaction. But the +4 to a save? Mmmm, that's tasty.

[Naanomi]

Githzerai can cast Mage Hand without verbal or somatic components, meaning that all the Mage Hand trickiness of an Arcane Trickster can be done in complete subtlety, mid conversation, at the king’s ball; and no one would be the wiser. Nothing world shaking for most adventurers, but fun

[AvvyR]

Its especially considering just for the +4 bonus to a saving throw.

The +2 to AC? That's small enough where I think that Uncanny Dodge is a better use of a reaction. But the +4 to a save? Mmmm, that's tasty.

I'm pretty good at judging when deflect will cause the attack to miss. But yes, the build has a lot of reaction competition.

[KorvinStarmast]

A few more blue pencil marks in the margins

1. In abilities section


• Strenght: This is either whatever or garbage for Arcane Tricksters
Strength

2. In feats section

.Spell Sniper Needs to be bolded

[Specter]

A few more blue pencil marks in the margins

1. In abilities section


Strength

2. In feats section

.Spell Sniper Needs to be bolded

Hey, thanks!

[Greywander]

I'm surprised the Mobile feat isn't mentioned. It might be slightly niche, but it does have synergy with Booming Blade and Cunning Action. Here's the description of Mobile:

Mobile
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Your speed increases by 10 feet.
When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement on that turn.
When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.

So here's the tactic you'd use, assuming a base speed of 30 feet:

Start your turn within 40 feet of an enemy.

Use your movement to get within melee range.

Use Booming Blade. Hit or miss, they can't make OAs against you.

Bonus action Dash to move 40 feet away.

Many creatures have a speed of 30 feet, so even if they are willing to tank the damage from Booming Blade, they aren't able to get close enough for melee without using their action to Dash. If they do, then just Booming Blade them on your turn and move 40 feet away again. Bonus points if you're able to make use of difficult terrain, since Dashing means you don't get slowed down by difficult terrain for all of your movement that turn, not just your Dash movement.

Now, as I said, this is a bit niche. Some creatures have a speed of 40 or greater. Some can Dash as a bonus action like you. Sometimes enemies are standing close enough that you can't get in and out of melee range without provoking an AO from your target's friend. But Mobile gives you a lot. The +10 speed is really nice, and not needing to Disengage any time you're facing a single opponent is really nice. It's like it was made with hit-and-run melee rogues in mind.

[TheFryingPen]

DEX+INT for initiative, and Arcane Deflection is a resourceless baby-Shield and save boost. Melee AT's usually stick to cantrips anyway. Plus you don't get into sticky racial restrictions for Bladesinger.

The best thing about Tactical Wit is, imo, that you can choose and don't have to add Int to initiative. As delaying is not a thing in 5e, this is one of the few (are there even more?) ways to actually adjust your spot in the initiative order to your liking. This is of course situational, but sometimes you'd like to have an ally move first for example, so you can sneak attack easier.

[Galadhrim]

Amazing guide, I'm currently thinking how should I make my first rogue PC, I was considering just making an assassin and ambush like crazy but after reading the guide AT seems a lot more appealing to me specially the familiar strategy and spamming BB with a Wood elf extra speed maybe even add mobile just to troll my foes even more xD
The shenanigans I can pull out with minor illusion are endless and I think o can get some mileage out of the improved mage hand in any campaign with big cities and disarm traps or whatever, maybe picking the lock of a chest from distance and then send my familiar to retrieve the item that was inside or something like that.

Magical ambush however seems slightly lackluster to me.

I have been playing an arcane trickster 13/fighter 2. Magical ambush is encounter changing. Hypnotic pattern from hidden, forcing a wisdom save at disadvantage has been devastating to my dm's encounters. He had to give his big bad a legendary save just so he could escape after I hit him with disadvantaged hold person. It is very powerful.

[Specter]

I have been playing an arcane trickster 13/fighter 2. Magical ambush is encounter changing. Hypnotic pattern from hidden, forcing a wisdom save at disadvantage has been devastating to my dm's encounters. He had to give his big bad a legendary save just so he could escape after I hit him with disadvantaged hold person. It is very powerful.

Ditto. When an encounter breaks out, hiding places are now priority number 1.

[Edgerunner]

I am going with a BRAIN / Utility type Half Elf AT.

I have a 17 INT ATM and plan on taking the Investigator feat @ LvL 4 to round out my INT and get an expertise in that skill.
Should I Max out INT or is an 18 good enough?
I have an 16 DEX and I feel it needs the LvL 8 and 10 ASIs to get it up to MAX and then Resilient CON or War Caster for my CON that is currently 14.

Suggestions, Ideas or Thoughts?

[rooneg]

I am going with a BRAIN / Utility type Half Elf AT.

I have a 17 INT ATM and plan on taking the Investigator feat @ LvL 4 to round out my INT and get an expertise in that skill.
Should I Max out INT or is an 18 good enough?
I have an 16 DEX and I feel it needs the LvL 8 and 10 ASIs to get it up to MAX and then Resilient CON or War Caster for my CON that is currently 14.

Suggestions, Ideas or Thoughts?

Maxing out INT on an Arcane Trickster really isn't worth it. It only impacts spell saves (and you're casting spells multiple levels lower than a full caster, so even if you have high saves most of your spells won't have an enormous impact) and a few skills. You're almost certainly going to get better return on your investment putting that into DEX or a useful Feat. For what it's worth, I have an Arcane Trickster with a two level dip into Bladesinger Wizard and even using the INT for Bladesong I don't intend to max it out (actually, I'm using a Headband of Intellect so it will remain at 19 indefinitely).

[Specter]

I am going with a BRAIN / Utility type Half Elf AT.

I have a 17 INT ATM and plan on taking the Investigator feat @ LvL 4 to round out my INT and get an expertise in that skill.
Should I Max out INT or is an 18 good enough?
I have an 16 DEX and I feel it needs the LvL 8 and 10 ASIs to get it up to MAX and then Resilient CON or War Caster for my CON that is currently 14.

Suggestions, Ideas or Thoughts?

18 is enough. +1 on save DC and INT skills shouldn't be worth more than Resilient (CON), or even Tough.

[Specter]

Inspired by Treantmonk's recent threads, I made a detailed guide on how to build an Arcane Trickster.
It's on Google Drive.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lUivlPXlwxZxQxWrJZ4Q39YJFNfWV_uH

Thoughts are welcome.

[rooneg]

Inspired by Treantmonk's recent threads, I made a detailed guide on how to build an Arcane Trickster.
It's on Google Drive.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lUivlPXlwxZxQxWrJZ4Q39YJFNfWV_uH

Thoughts are welcome.

I enjoyed this quite a bit. The only suggestion I'd have is that the use of both the SCAG cantrips and Toll the Dead makes this build illegal for Adventurers League. Honestly, I'd skip Toll the Dead anyway, I don't think a save based cantrip is terribly important for a Rogue, I'd rather pick up Prestidigitation for random usefulness or grab Green Flame Blade earlier.

[Specter]

I enjoyed this quite a bit. The only suggestion I'd have is that the use of both the SCAG cantrips and Toll the Dead makes this build illegal for Adventurers League. Honestly, I'd skip Toll the Dead anyway, I don't think a save based cantrip is terribly important for a Rogue, I'd rather pick up Prestidigitation for random usefulness or grab Green Flame Blade earlier.

Good call.

[Edgerunner]

I understand that this is an 'Arcane Trickster's Guide" but can't you achieve this by going Swashbuckler X/ Lore Bard 6 and actually be Better at it?

Yea you lose out on Sneak Attack but you gain a better range of Spells and Skills?

Not trolling and very curious about Other Magical Thief builds.

[TheUser]

I understand that this is an 'Arcane Trickster's Guide" but can't you achieve this by going Swashbuckler X/ Lore Bard 6 and actually be Better at it?

Yea you lose out on Sneak Attack but you gain a better range of Spells and Skills?

Not trolling and very curious about Other Magical Thief builds.

Delaying the acquisition of mid-high end Rogue abilities is a big no-no in my experience.

Magical Ambush + Extra sneak attack dice is often far more worth it. Forcing disadvantage on spell saves is amazing. Especially in higher tiers where magic resistance is very common; taking away advantage is arguably better.

Perhaps if you could elaborate on where you envision this 6 level Lore bard dip being thrown in the mix it might help me understand why you think it's better.

I see those 6 levels in Lore Bard represent a huge opportunity cost equivalent to 3-4d6 sneak attack dice (which is 10.5-28 DPR depending on opportunity attacks), and things like Evasion (7), Extra ASI's (8, 10, 12) or even Blindsense and Slippery Mind (14, 15).

[Edgerunner]

I see those 6 levels in Lore Bard represent a huge opportunity cost equivalent to 3-4d6 sneak attack dice (which is 10.5-28 DPR depending on opportunity attacks), and things like Evasion (7), Extra ASI's (8, 10, 12) or even Blindsense and Slippery Mind (14, 15).
My idea is for a Conman Rogue

In Combat, yes it takes a hit but out of combat the "Magical Rogue" build just got a ton more useful. LvL 6 in Lore Bard gets you Magical Secrets so take what you like, Cutting Words makes sure your spells stick and Jack of All Trades/ More Expertise makes you pertinent in every situation.

Characters aren't All about Combat.

[TheUser]

My idea is for a Conman Rogue

In Combat, yes it takes a hit but out of combat the "Magical Rogue" build just got a ton more useful. LvL 6 in Lore Bard gets you Magical Secrets so take what you like, Cutting Words makes sure your spells stick and Jack of All Trades/ More Expertise makes you pertinent in every situation.

Characters aren't All about Combat.

Unless the spell requires an ability check to break I don't see how cutting words makes spells stick; it doesn't affect saves. (Have you even played the build your propositioning?)

It sounds like you have your own vision of what a magical rogue should be (apparently less useful in combat) and while yes, having heaps of skills is cool, people go into the Arcane Trickster archetype knowing their charisma isn't stellar. There is also nothing stopping DM's from asking for Intelligence based deception checks (far more realistic if you ask me) to help their player maximise their potential. Additionally, disguise kits and Investigation to see what might normally be hidden, rely on Intelligence, so there are some facets that your conman might stumble on more than the Arcane Trickster would.

Magical Conman actually sounds more like a splash of sorceror is more appropriate than Lore Bard; subtle spell is mandatory for social shenanigans imho.

[Edgerunner]

Unless the spell requires an ability check to break I don't see how cutting words makes spells stick; it doesn't affect saves.

Sorry. Got Bardic Inspiration/Cutting Words mixed up.

[Chronos]

A few points:

Reliable Talent-- You're selling this way short. There are two kinds of situations where you really want to boost your skills: When the task is very difficult, or when the stakes are very high. When the task is very difficult, mostly what you need is to increase your best-case scenario, and Reliable Talent does nothing for this. But on the other hand, when the stakes are very high (for instance, stealthily scouting ahead away from the party, where getting spotted is likely to kill you), what you care about is improving your worst-case scenario, and for that, Reliable Talent is equivalent to a +9. That's huge.

Magical Ambush-- Isn't quite as good as you think, since it can't be used on Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, or Fireball. The ability says "If you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it...". You don't cast those spells on a creature; you cast them on an area. It's still great for Suggestion, Tasha's, etc., though, especially since 5e has so few ways to mess with an enemy's saves.

Feats-- You don't mention Ritual Caster. This can get you that oh-so-nice familiar without spending your precious any-school first-level spell on it, as well as a variety of other utility spells. If you're a vhuman, it also lets you get in on the magic game (to a degree, at least) starting right at 1st level.

[KorvinStarmast]

One last blue pencil point:
I think you meant wood elf on this one. Half elf does not get speed bonus.

• Lightning Lure - Minor damage while pulling the enemy closer. If you have a good walking speed from Mobile or Half-Elf, this could seriously annoy the enemy, though. Wood elf gets the initial boost to 35' walking speed.

[RogueJK]

One last blue pencil point:
I think you meant wood elf on this one. Half elf does not get speed bonus.
Wood elf gets the initial boost to 35' walking speed.

Variant Wood Half-Elf could get the same walking speed too.

[Naanomi]

Unless the spell requires an ability check to break I don't see how cutting words makes spells stick; it doesn't affect saves. (Have you even played the build your propositioning?)
For what it is worth, many illusions do indeed call for checks not saves

[TheUser]

...

Magical Ambush-- Isn't quite as good as you think, since it can't be used on Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, or Fireball. The ability says "If you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it...". You don't cast those spells on a creature; you cast them on an area. It's still great for Suggestion, Tasha's, etc., though, especially since 5e has so few ways to mess with an enemy's saves.



I'm sorry to say that this is incorrect.

Starting at 9th level, if you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it, the creature has disadvantage on any saving throw it makes against the spell this turn.

While I can understand your logic, a creature can have a spell cast on it without specifically being targeted by it.

If we were to imagine the wording of how people would describe a creature under the effects of Hypnotic Pattern they might say "they've had a spell cast on them."

Moreover, we've often seen restrictions for features which only affect single target spells denote as such (like with Twinned Spell).

The spell need only require a save and affect creatures.

This has also been clarified by Jeremy Crawford.

[RogueJK]

I agree. It's the difference between the general "having a spell cast on them", and the more specific language of being "the target of a spell" as used in some other features and effects.

[tieren]

The build I went with was half elf arcane trickster/bladesinger with sword coast cantrips. Being part wizard affords me the ability to learn spells outside of the PHB +1 for adventurers league, which is a huge bonus. Also ritual spells can be literal lifesavers and you don't have to burn your spell slots. (Hello identify, detect magic and alarm!)

Half elf charlatan
AC: 19 (Mage armor is 13 +4 dex, bracers of defense +2. Boosted to 22 with blade song and 27 with shield, + mirror image + uncanny dodge when I actually do get hit)
AT5/BS4

[snip]

The way I plan on building this towards AL endgame content is either AT11/BS9 for level 5 spells (Bigby's hand! Steel wind strike!!!), or AT12/BS8 for upcasted 3rd and 4th level spells and final ASI (Probably either lucky, mage slayer or warcaster to assassinate enemy casters)

The only dead/tough levels I've had where I felt underpowered compared to others were 4-6, where our variant human ranger with sharpshooter/crossbow expert was spamming out 3D6+39 damage per turn before hunters mark, and when our half orc zealot barbarian/champion was critting at least once every other turn.


I love this build and am starting down the same path right now, beginning new campaign at level 3, I'm starting Wiz 2(BS)/ Rogue 1.

I was wondering if you (or anyone) had any suggestions for leveling order or tips you learned slogging through that 4-6 period.

[Chronos]

Huh, do you have a link to that clarification from Crawford? That would have come in handy back when I was playing an arcane trickster and the DM ruled against using it with Hypnotic Pattern.

[TheUser]

Huh, do you have a link to that clarification from Crawford? That would have come in handy back when I was playing an arcane trickster and the DM ruled against using it with Hypnotic Pattern.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/893249557668085760

[Naanomi]

I had a chance to see someone play my Gith Arcane Trickster idea proposed earlier in the thread, and it was a lot of fun. The ability to use Mage Hand to do all the fun Legerdemain tricks completely on the sly... your racial Mage Hand has no components, and so can be cast without any indication... so you can focus on remaining hidden or just inconspicuous.

Everything not nailed down (well... not nailed down with more than 10 lbs or force) that you can get within 30 feet of is yours; drop poison wherever you want it, all kinds of other nonsense.

Githzerai Arcane-Trickster Urchin
8/14/14/14/14/12
Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Deception, Investigation, Perception, Insight
Common, Gith
Thieves’ Tools, Disguise Kit, Poisoner’s Kit
Expertise: Sleight of Hand, Stealth; Thieves’ Tools, Perception
+2 DEX, +2 DEX, +2 DEX, Luck, Mobile, Alert
0- Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation; Message
1- Sleep, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Find Familiar; Disguise Self
2- Invisibility; Shadow Blade; Suggestion; Rope Trick
3- Hypnotic Pattern; Enemies Abound; Haste
4- Greater Invisibility; Polymorph

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I love this build and am starting down the same path right now, beginning new campaign at level 3, I'm starting Wiz 2(BS)/ Rogue 1.

I was wondering if you (or anyone) had any suggestions for leveling order or tips you learned slogging through that 4-6 period.

I'm glad you're enjoying it!

My suggestion for the level 4-6 period is to first consider HOW you want to play. Are you going to be more skill and roleplay focused or do you want to be more combat and damage focused?

I advanced in tiers like this

Tier 2: 3AT/2BS. You'll be the goat of the party if you're not at least a skill monkey in this phase. Your spells will only be first level so make sure to pick some control and escape spells. Hit AT 4 quick for the ASI. I would advise something like resilient to be proficient in CON saves, then level up your bladesinger to 3 for Shadowblade which is a literal game changer for you, then 4 for another ASI. By this time you should have no less than 18 dex.

Tier 3: 5AT/6BS. You lose sneak attack die but a majorly upcast shadowblade + 2 attacks and you're twice as likely to hit for major damage than if you just used a slightly upcast shadowblade + Sword Coast cantrips. The damage works out to roughly the same but you're less likely to miss. Plus if you have a good support caster in the party throwing haste on you, you can still use your SC cantrips and hit twice. Also, if you want to have a little fun at range use a magical bow crossbow (hand or otherwise) with sharpshooter, crossbow expert and fire off Melf's Minute Meteor's. 2 attacks + a baby meteor hurtling at the target.

Tier 4: 8AT/9BS stopping bladesinger at this level. This is where my character is currently and he is an absolute nightmare for the DM. I was fortunate to have a ton of gold prior to the new DDAL season 8 rules so my spellbook is filled with lots of Xanathar's spells and I've taken to minion-mancy.

I've got a nightcaller whistle and a skeleton stuffed into my Leomund's secret chest for a quick summon that I mostly use as an archer. A tan bag of tricks that seems to only dump out gorillas that throw rocks, the summon lesser and greater elemental spells, as well as summon lesser and greater demon, and infernal calling as well as the true names of a few devils and a few talismans. My character went a little insane while using contact other plane to get them, but that's besides the point! It's all in good fun, and when you've got a planar-bound air elemental, a dybuk in the body of a tough enemy and a skeleton on the flank as your artillery then you can have your army take down all the trash while the rest of the party can focus on the big bad.

[tieren]

I'm at BS 2 / rogue 1 right now, I am really torn on what to do at my next level up. I know getting to BS 3 / rogue 2 for shadow blade and cunning action is my first real benchmark, but I'm not sure which is the more important to get first.

[McSkrag]

I'm at BS 2 / rogue 1 right now, I am really torn on what to do at my next level up. I know getting to BS 3 / rogue 2 for shadow blade and cunning action is my first real benchmark, but I'm not sure which is the more important to get first.

Personally I'd go for Rogue 2, because cunning action is crucial. It's one of those features you use every single round.

I've got an AT 3 / BS 3 that is really fun and effective. I took a 3rd level of BS to get access to 2nd level wizard spells because there are so many good ones. That way as I level up I can add 1st and 2nd level spells. My plan is to take rogue at least until I get magical ambush.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I'm at BS 2 / rogue 1 right now, I am really torn on what to do at my next level up. I know getting to BS 3 / rogue 2 for shadow blade and cunning action is my first real benchmark, but I'm not sure which is the more important to get first.

That's probably a safe way to get into tier 2 if you're more focused on damage. You won't hit any ASIs until level 6 or 7 on this path, but if you're more combat focused it's a good way to help the party.

[Klorox]

Nice guide, two things:

1) you suggest the synergy between booming blade and using a whip, but you need a feat to make booming blade work at more than a 5’ range.

2) could you please elaborate on multiclassing AT/bladesinger?

I’m currently playing one but I wasn’t aware that there was that much synergy. I just thought it was kinda fun and cool. 🤷*♂️

[Nhorianscum]

I understand that this is an 'Arcane Trickster's Guide" but can't you achieve this by going Swashbuckler X/ Lore Bard 6 and actually be Better at it?

Yea you lose out on Sneak Attack but you gain a better range of Spells and Skills?

Not trolling and very curious about Other Magical Thief builds.

To be fair if we're not locked into AL's PHB+1 Rav background AT (Orzhova for preferance) + Scagtrips is sorta the build-to-beat. (In AL ranged AT is our go to for Rav background abuse).

Swash with 6 lore levels really isn't cutting the mustard by comparison.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

Nice guide, two things:

1) you suggest the synergy between booming blade and using a whip, but you need a feat to make booming blade work at more than a 5’ range.

2) could you please elaborate on multiclassing AT/bladesinger?

I’m currently playing one but I wasn’t aware that there was that much synergy. I just thought it was kinda fun and cool. ��*♂️

To cast booming blade on a reach melee weapon, you need spell sniper. It doubles the distance of your attack spells. Booming blade has a listed range of 5ft. With spellsniper you've now got 10ft, the reach of a whip.

The problem is, you get good sneak attack damage + booming blade or green flame blade damage as per usual, but you've turned what would normally be a D8 damage die into a D4 just to keep 5 extra feet away from the enemy. With evasion, uncanny dodge, +3 to 5 AC from bladesong, another +5 from shield and +2 from haste why would you WANT to 5 feet away from the enemy? You can tank ancient dragons with that AC.

And with warcaster and bladesong you'll have advantage + INT on your concentration saves. And if you have resilient for con you're now proficient in con saves. You'll almost never drop concentration whenever you do get hit. If you get hit.

A bladesinger/arcane trickster can have 3 combat roles; AC/evasion tank, primary or secondary melee DPS, or blaster.

For AC/Evasion tank use the formula I listed above. You should have at least 29ac at this point.
For primary/secondary melee, use an upcasted shadowblade + sword coast cantrips. You'll have 7D8 + 6D6 on a single attack with a 5th level shadowblade/booming blade combo. Now imagine that with a crit.
For blaster, try greater invisibility with synaptic static or steel wind strike. Disadvantage on saves against synaptic static and you get advantage on your attacks with steel wind strike. Again, imagine the crits.

[Klorox]

I know I’m just scratching the surface of this class (I’m playing an eladrin arcane trickster at level 3), but it is just so much fun!

Thanks for the advice in this guide!

[bendking]

For AC/Evasion tank use the formula I listed above. You should have at least 29ac at this point.
For primary/secondary melee, use an upcasted shadowblade + sword coast cantrips. You'll have 7D8 + 6D6 on a single attack with a 5th level shadowblade/booming blade combo. Now imagine that with a crit.
For blaster, try greater invisibility with synaptic static or steel wind strike. Disadvantage on saves against synaptic static and you get advantage on your attacks with steel wind strike. Again, imagine the crits.

I have to say, with extra attack & Shadow Blade: 8d8 + 5d6 + 8 (66) is pretty damn good at level 15 (AT9/BS6 to pull off 5th level Shadow Blade) considering all of the utility you provide.
Of course, it doesn't hold a candle to what some optimized nova builds are capable of, but it's pretty damn good I would say.
Seems like AT/BS can be a pretty effective primary striker.

EDIT:
That said, you are giving up your concentration slot if you want to do consistent damage that is in the ballpark of a straight AT.
Here is a little chart I made comparing AT9/W2 to AT5/W6:

Damage (AT9/W2 VS AT5/W6):
Level 5:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 2d6 + 3 (23.5/32.5)
Level 8:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 3 (27/36)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 2d6 + 3 (28/37)
Level 11:
DIP - BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/48.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/50.5)
MC - BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 4 (28/41.5) EA: 2d8 + 3d6 + 8 (27.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 3d6 + 4 (32.5/46) EA: 6d8 + 3d6 + 8 (44.5)


Conclusions: if you want to go deeper into Wizard and be a better casting, you are going to be lagging behind in damage unless you use Shadow Blade.
However, if you're using Shadow Blade, your concentration slot is taken, thus you won't be able to cast your most powerful spells.
I would say this constitues a play-style of disabling first, and only then switching to Shadow Blade and striking harder.
It's also worth noting that at level 11, when you get extra attack, you can outperfrom the regular AT by quite a bit with Shadow Blade.

@Specter: a penny for your thoughts?

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I have to say, with extra attack & Shadow Blade: 8d8 + 5d6 + 8 (66) is pretty damn good at level 15 (AT9/BS6 to pull off 5th level Shadow Blade) considering all of the utility you provide.
Of course, it doesn't hold a candle to what some optimized nova builds are capable of, but it's pretty damn good I would say.
Seems like AT/BS can be a pretty effective primary striker.

EDIT:
That said, you are giving up your concentration slot if you want to do consistent damage that is in the ballpark of a straight AT.
Here is a little chart I made comparing AT9/W2 to AT5/W6:

Damage (AT9/W2 VS AT5/W6):
Level 5:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 2d6 + 3 (23.5/32.5)
Level 8:
DIP - BB: 2d8 + 3d6 + 3 (22.5/31.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 3 (27/36)
MC - BB: 2d8 + 2d6 + 3 (19/28) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 2d6 + 3 (28/37)
Level 11:
DIP - BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/48.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 (35/50.5)
MC - BB: 3d8 + 3d6 + 4 (28/41.5) EA: 2d8 + 3d6 + 8 (27.5) / Shadow Blade: BB: 4d8 + 3d6 + 4 (32.5/46) EA: 6d8 + 3d6 + 8 (44.5)


Conclusions: if you want to go deeper into Wizard and be a better casting, you are going to be lagging behind in damage unless you use Shadow Blade.
However, if you're using Shadow Blade, your concentration slot is taken, thus you won't be able to cast your most powerful spells.
I would say this constitues a play-style of disabling first, and only then switching to Shadow Blade and striking harder.
It's also worth noting that at level 11, when you get extra attack, you can outperfrom the regular AT by quite a bit with Shadow Blade.

@Specter: a penny for your thoughts?

Thread necromancy! Yay!

Using concentration as an AT/bladesinger on shadowblade isn't bad at all. If you have a sorcerer or wizard in the party who can haste you, or if you have a potion of speed then you'll dance around the battlefield and dominate all encounters. There are also some very good non-concentration spells you'll have access to that are huge boosts to you and your allies. Upcasting blindness/deafness on a group of enemies is HUGE because you're effectively giving yourself and allies advantage on all attacks against them, and the spell doesn't use concentration. Then there are other non-concentration spells like cone of cold, steel wind strike, synaptic static if you want to use them. One of my favored tactics is starting combat hidden, using synaptic static or blindness/deafness then using bladesong on turn 1, then turn 2 bonus action shadowblade at 5th level and move in for the kill on turn 2.

Also if you're running an AT/BS build getting hit by damage spells is not a bad thing; use absorb elements, upcast it to 4th+ level and add some extra D6s to your next melee attack. The last time I used my AT/BS in a game I was able to hit a crit after using absorb elements on a cone of cold at 6th level. 8D8 + 5 shadowblade + 6D8 booming blade + 12D6 sneak + 12D6 cold. It was an epic kill on an archmage.

And as for other optimized nova builds? For sure, a sorlock quickening eldritch blast after something has been hexed is pretty potent at 8D10+40 (assuming 5 CHA and g) + 8D6 is going to outdamage on average, but it is so boring. (Speaking as someone who has played a couple of warlocks.) It's so much less versatile than an AT/BS, as well. The point of the arcane trickster bladesinger isn't to be the party's novaburst in the same way that a sorlock, pallock, sorcadin, assassin/champion, zealot/palladin/fighter combos are. It's built to be very good at a lot of things, and is very good at helping party synergy.

[HiveStriker]

Hi!

First of all, thanks and congrats for this guide. By far the best I've seen in years: exhaustive enough for anyone to grasp how to play an Arcane Trickster, yet concise enough and greatly structured so it's not a pain to read.

Didn't have time to read in detail (especially the races and such), but a few comments.

On spells: I'd strongly recommend Comprehend Languages as a non-school suggestion, at least for AT that want to act as party-face, or those that rely heavily on espionnage (pair with Observant then).

On feats:
- For any regular melee AT that can reliably land Booming Blade, I'd recommend Mobile: paired with possibly occasional Longstrider, it makes you a real pain to deal with because you can safely retreat back so melee-geared enemy simply has no other choice than either fall back on ranged attack (not its forte) or move and take the additional damage.
- For Grappler Rogues: Grappler feat is a staple for those: it does not help on first turn's action economy where Grappling will take your action's Attack, but on enemies with high HP it makes you completely autonomous in applying Sneak Attack while you drag it away from enemies (and possibly allies). Of course, if you intend to tag-team with another melee that can reliably Shove before your Grapple, then the point is moot, but that's kinda rare imx. ^^
- For any AT: Ritual Caster: Wizard, provided DM allows you to write scrolls of spells you know (following DMG/Xanathar's rulles), helps expanding your utility and global number of "spell known" without having to actually multiclass into a Wizard.

[Ventruenox]

Mödley Crüe: Raise Thread.

[andyjayoth]

This has been a great help to me when making my Arcane Trickster. Thanks a lot.

I don't know if my old age is failing me, but I could have sworn there was a colour grading, but I'm not seeing it now.

[bendking]

Hi!


- For any regular melee AT that can reliably land Booming Blade, I'd recommend Mobile: paired with possibly occasional Longstrider, it makes you a real pain to deal with because you can safely retreat back so melee-geared enemy simply has no other choice than either fall back on ranged attack (not its forte) or move and take the additional damage.

Why would you need Mobile when you have Cunning Action?

[nickl_2000]

Why would you need Mobile when you have Cunning Action?

Opportunity gains. So instead of using a disengage for your bonus action you can:

-Bonus action hide for advantage
-Run 80 feet away to kite them from safety
-Two weapon fight to get the sneak attack in since you missed the first attack
-steal a potion of the wizards belt so he can't use it.

It just opens up more uses of your bonus action.

Now whether that is worth it or not is up to the player, but it certainly has it's uses.

[andyjayoth]

Opportunity gains. So instead of using a disengage for your bonus action you can:

-Bonus action hide for advantage
-Run 80 feet away to kite them from safety
-Two weapon fight to get the sneak attack in since you missed the first attack
-steal a potion of the wizards belt so he can't use it.

It just opens up more uses of your bonus action.


Agree.

I was thinking of taking Mobile during a latter ASI level.

There is something dissatisfying about using Cunning Action to disengage. As you say, lost opportunity to; Dash, Hide or use Mage Hand.

The extra 10ft certainly helps if your character is a Halfing.

[Klorox]

I’m thinking of dipping wizard on my AT. Which subclass works best?

I’m thinking abjuror, diviner, war wizard and bladesinger are good options.

[nickl_2000]

I’m thinking of dipping wizard on my AT. Which subclass works best?

I’m thinking abjuror, diviner, war wizard and bladesinger are good options.

They all have their place. Personally I would choose in this order

Bladesigner
War Wizard
Diviner
Abjuror

Abjuror is the lowest because your ward is only going to be at max 11 HP. The Bladesinger AC bonus and the War Wizard reaction is going to save more than that over a day. As for diviner, well that one just doesn't seem that fun to me, but that's more me than anything else. Lots of people love it.

[HiveStriker]

Why would you need Mobile when you have Cunning Action?


Opportunity gains. So instead of using a disengage for your bonus action you can:

-Bonus action hide for advantage
-Run 80 feet away to kite them from safety
-Two weapon fight to get the sneak attack in since you missed the first attack
-steal a potion of the wizards belt so he can't use it.

It just opens up more uses of your bonus action.

Now whether that is worth it or not is up to the player, but it certainly has it's uses.
Exactly that. :smallwink:


They all have their place. Personally I would choose in this order

Bladesigner
War Wizard
Diviner
Abjuror

Abjuror is the lowest because your ward is only going to be at max 11 HP. The Bladesinger AC bonus and the War Wizard reaction is going to save more than that over a day. As for diviner, well that one just doesn't seem that fun to me, but that's more me than anything else. Lots of people love it.
I'd put Evoker, Conjurer, Enchanter and Illusionist in good place here too, above every school you put except Bladesinger to be honest.

Conjurer can set up some nice "proof-less" thefts, by grabbing an object with bonus action Invisible Mage Hand (which, at least at my table, would make the object invisible as long as it's completely grasped "inside") while conjuring a similar one with your action. Again, dependant on DM but for me, at worst a decent Deception check would be required.

Illusionist can be absolutely marvelous, paired with Invisible Mage Hand, to perfect some illusions by actually moving objects "in sync" with the illusion. Plus it totally fits the mischievous thematic of Arcane Trickster. Plus some great spells are Illusion spells (like IIRC Mirror Image), so you can possibly get them earlier and easier if you'd like.

Enchanter makes thievery extremely easy since you can enchant with an action and target a Wisdom save, either as a fail-safe for Mage Hand Sleight of Hand or as a long enough distraction to run away with Dash as bonus action (or Hide).

Evoker is of kind limited use at low level, especially since you won't have much in terms of offensive spells, although some Earth Tremor is sometimes good (especially if your friends can be unaffected). But once you got Magical Ambush, it makes pushing Wizards up to 5 very worth it for spells like the classic Fireball. Sure, by that time, such spells become useless against high CR creatures, but against those you can learn more classic save or suck mental spells. Fireball still stays relevant to weaken groups. Admitedly though it's overall one of the less good choice unless you instead get Wizard up to 5 earlier and make Magical Ambush the long-run objective.

[Rhyuk]

1st post yay!

First of all thanks for the guide!! I started my first DnD campaign last Friday and I rolled an AT. This guide has been my bible. One thing that I'd like mention is the option of using Id Insinuation (Unearthed Arcana) instead of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. If you pick Toll the Dead as one of your cantrips I think Id Insinuation is a better choice as you could be doing up to 24 of necrotic/psychic dmg per turn to a "crazy" dude. Obviously you have to take in consideration your party's composition and how each spell benefits its members (falling prone laughing vs letting them run around like a maniac but taking dmg while they do so). Also, Id Insinuation doesn't trigger a save roll every time they are damaged.

What do you guys think?

[nickl_2000]

1st post yay!

First of all thanks for the guide!! I started my first DnD campaign last Friday and I rolled an AT. This guide has been my bible. One thing that I'd like mention is the option of using Id Insinuation (Unearthed Arcana) instead of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. If you pick Toll the Dead as one of your cantrips I think Id Insinuation is a better choice as you could be doing up to 24 of necrotic/psychic dmg per turn to a "crazy" dude. Obviously you have to take in consideration your party's composition and how each spell benefits its members (falling prone laughing vs letting them run around like a maniac but taking dmg while they do so). Also, Id Insinuation doesn't trigger a save roll every time they are damaged.

What do you guys think?

Id Insinuation is a far superior spell over tasha;s.

They both go against wisdom so that is even
Incapacitated is a much better condition to cause than prone and incapacitated (prone is disadvantage for ranged attacks).
Tasha's triggers for only int 4 and higher
Tasha's has a new save every time they take damage.
Id does damage.


If you have Id Insinuation as a choice, there is basically no reason to take tasha's (other than possible social reasons).

[Edgerunner]

May not be Optimal but...
Does Melee AT with the Mobile feat make you a Swashbuckler, minus the +CHR to initiative/free SA vs single target, if you add a LvL of Fighter for TWF? I like the idea of combining the two best Rogue sub-classes, arguably, into one build.

How does this stack up to AT with Booming Blade?

[Klorox]

May not be Optimal but...
Does Melee AT with the Mobile feat make you a Swashbuckler, minus the +CHR to initiative/free SA vs single target, if you add a LvL of Fighter for TWF? I like the idea of combining the two best Rogue sub-classes, arguably, into one build.

How does this stack up to AT with Booming Blade?

AT works great with booming blade, but the swashbuckler is even better since they’ll get sneak attacks and can skip away from enemies leaving them with the choice between a ranged attack.

TWF is absolutely not worth it if you’re going to use booming blade. Booming blade is just better.

[Segev]

Id Insinuation is a far superior spell over tasha;s.

They both go against wisdom so that is even
Incapacitated is a much better condition to cause than prone and incapacitated (prone is disadvantage for ranged attacks).
Tasha's triggers for only int 4 and higher
Tasha's has a new save every time they take damage.
Id does damage.


If you have Id Insinuation as a choice, there is basically no reason to take tasha's (other than possible social reasons).

Tasha's hideous laughter incapacitates and knocks a target prone. It prevents escapes, amongst other motion issues. Id insinuation doesn't knock a target prone, so it's free to move away, admittedly without being able to Dash. But it does do damage.

Against creatures immune to the Prone condition (or with Int 3 or lower), id insinuation is absolutely better.

One incidental perk of Tasha's hideous laughter that is also a potential downside: the target is explicitly laughing, which defintiely makes noise.


But, yes, I think, overall, id insinuation is the more broadly useful spell and thus is more powerful. Both are, I think, too strong for level 1. Compare hold person, which is level 2 and doesn't do that much more in terms of taking an enemy out of a fight, and is even less broadly applicable than Tasha's hideous laughter.

[Lyracian]

1ST-LEVEL SPELLS
At level 3, you get three of these, two from the enchantment or illusion schools and one from any school. Choose it wisely, because it can only be traded by Enchantment/Illusion spells later on.

I love this guide and wanted to point out the latest errata lets you change your level 3 Any school spell for another any school spell.
https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher (p. 98). In the final sentence of this subsection, the closing phrase has changed to read as follows: “... unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.”


Stroke of Luck
Thinking about what you might use this for specifically as an Arcane Trickster I came up with the following. Does anyone else have suggestions?

Counterspell - If you take this spell, or Dispel Magic, you can guarantee countering.
Scrolls - As an arcane caster you can make sure you cast a level 5-9 Wizard spell Scroll. Only useful if there is not a full arcane caster around.

[Specter]

It's been a long time! Let me take these one at a time.


I know I’m just scratching the surface of this class (I’m playing an eladrin arcane trickster at level 3), but it is just so much fun!

Thanks for the advice in this guide!

Hey, don't mention it.


Thread necromancy! Yay!

Using concentration as an AT/bladesinger on shadowblade isn't bad at all. If you have a sorcerer or wizard in the party who can haste you, or if you have a potion of speed then you'll dance around the battlefield and dominate all encounters. There are also some very good non-concentration spells you'll have access to that are huge boosts to you and your allies. Upcasting blindness/deafness on a group of enemies is HUGE because you're effectively giving yourself and allies advantage on all attacks against them, and the spell doesn't use concentration. Then there are other non-concentration spells like cone of cold, steel wind strike, synaptic static if you want to use them. One of my favored tactics is starting combat hidden, using synaptic static or blindness/deafness then using bladesong on turn 1, then turn 2 bonus action shadowblade at 5th level and move in for the kill on turn 2.

Also if you're running an AT/BS build getting hit by damage spells is not a bad thing; use absorb elements, upcast it to 4th+ level and add some extra D6s to your next melee attack. The last time I used my AT/BS in a game I was able to hit a crit after using absorb elements on a cone of cold at 6th level. 8D8 + 5 shadowblade + 6D8 booming blade + 12D6 sneak + 12D6 cold. It was an epic kill on an archmage.

And as for other optimized nova builds? For sure, a sorlock quickening eldritch blast after something has been hexed is pretty potent at 8D10+40 (assuming 5 CHA and g) + 8D6 is going to outdamage on average, but it is so boring. (Speaking as someone who has played a couple of warlocks.) It's so much less versatile than an AT/BS, as well. The point of the arcane trickster bladesinger isn't to be the party's novaburst in the same way that a sorlock, pallock, sorcadin, assassin/champion, zealot/palladin/fighter combos are. It's built to be very good at a lot of things, and is very good at helping party synergy.

This. Also:
- Arcane Tricksters are not meant to have as much damage as other options, but most of their damage is at-will, so that tips the scale.


Hi!

First of all, thanks and congrats for this guide. By far the best I've seen in years: exhaustive enough for anyone to grasp how to play an Arcane Trickster, yet concise enough and greatly structured so it's not a pain to read.

Didn't have time to read in detail (especially the races and such), but a few comments.

On spells: I'd strongly recommend Comprehend Languages as a non-school suggestion, at least for AT that want to act as party-face, or those that rely heavily on espionnage (pair with Observant then).

On feats:
- For any regular melee AT that can reliably land Booming Blade, I'd recommend Mobile: paired with possibly occasional Longstrider, it makes you a real pain to deal with because you can safely retreat back so melee-geared enemy simply has no other choice than either fall back on ranged attack (not its forte) or move and take the additional damage.
- For Grappler Rogues: Grappler feat is a staple for those: it does not help on first turn's action economy where Grappling will take your action's Attack, but on enemies with high HP it makes you completely autonomous in applying Sneak Attack while you drag it away from enemies (and possibly allies). Of course, if you intend to tag-team with another melee that can reliably Shove before your Grapple, then the point is moot, but that's kinda rare imx. ^^
- For any AT: Ritual Caster: Wizard, provided DM allows you to write scrolls of spells you know (following DMG/Xanathar's rulles), helps expanding your utility and global number of "spell known" without having to actually multiclass into a Wizard.

Thank you, sir.
For your 3rd-level spell, you want something you can be guaranteed to use. Even if you don't understand a spoken language, it's likely that someone else in the party will, because of the diverse players involved. Some campaigns don't even focus on languages either. Same with Observant (unless you have an odd INT).
But if you manage to get some Comprehend Languages scrolls, more power to you.
Mobile is also a good option to double down on movement, but there are things that are higher up the priority list (like keeping concentration).


1st post yay!

First of all thanks for the guide!! I started my first DnD campaign last Friday and I rolled an AT. This guide has been my bible. One thing that I'd like mention is the option of using Id Insinuation (Unearthed Arcana) instead of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. If you pick Toll the Dead as one of your cantrips I think Id Insinuation is a better choice as you could be doing up to 24 of necrotic/psychic dmg per turn to a "crazy" dude. Obviously you have to take in consideration your party's composition and how each spell benefits its members (falling prone laughing vs letting them run around like a maniac but taking dmg while they do so). Also, Id Insinuation doesn't trigger a save roll every time they are damaged.

What do you guys think?

Thanks!


I love this guide and wanted to point out the latest errata lets you change your level 3 Any school spell for another any school spell.
https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher (p. 98). In the final sentence of this subsection, the closing phrase has changed to read as follows: “... unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.”


Stroke of Luck
Thinking about what you might use this for specifically as an Arcane Trickster I came up with the following. Does anyone else have suggestions?

Counterspell - If you take this spell, or Dispel Magic, you can guarantee countering.
Scrolls - As an arcane caster you can make sure you cast a level 5-9 Wizard spell Scroll. Only useful if there is not a full arcane caster around.


Well, that's a very good errata!

[MrStabby]

Tasha's hideous laughter incapacitates and knocks a target prone. It prevents escapes, amongst other motion issues. Id insinuation doesn't knock a target prone, so it's free to move away, admittedly without being able to Dash. But it does do damage.

Against creatures immune to the Prone condition (or with Int 3 or lower), id insinuation is absolutely better.

One incidental perk of Tasha's hideous laughter that is also a potential downside: the target is explicitly laughing, which defintiely makes noise.


But, yes, I think, overall, id insinuation is the more broadly useful spell and thus is more powerful. Both are, I think, too strong for level 1. Compare hold person, which is level 2 and doesn't do that much more in terms of taking an enemy out of a fight, and is even less broadly applicable than Tasha's hideous laughter.

So my thinking about hideous laughter is that it seems about right, but probably depends on your DM/Game.

Essentially you are using a resource to trade your action for some number of actions from your enemies. Now whether this is a good trade deends on a lot of factors:

1) Probability of saving. Kind of the obvious one and a great way for you to spend an action and a spell slot to exchange your action for Zero enemy actions. On the other hand you can be exchanging your action for 2, 3 or more enemy actions if they have rubbish saves. That said, if you are incapacitating things that were not really a threat then it is not really much of a benefit. Better to think about it in terms of fractions of a side - say you are 25% of your party and you take out 15% of the threat of a fight by targetting one enemy than that enemy would need to fail at least two saves for you to be coming out ahead (yeah, on average all the usual caveats etc.) Now long can you keep concentrations for? My personal experience is that on average you can get about 1.5 failed saves from a well placed hideous laughter.

2) How much it limits your party's actions. If it stops a fireball from your side for fear of breaking the effect then there is another cost. If you hit the only target next to melee allies then you really run the risk of breaking the effect. Sure, a small downside, but it does come up.

3) Number of enemies in an encounter. Related to the one above... if you have two enemies in an encounter and you enchant one... you get a big effect, but one the other is down you are having them make a lot more saves if the party are attacking them.


My experience is that you can recoup more actions than you invest, that you can come out ahead, but it isn't reliable and I would expect you to come out ahead given you are expending resources on it. Certainly it does scale up quite well though.

[Mr Adventurer]

Played my first ever AT last night, hit 3rd level before our second encounter. Had time to cast Mage Hand before encounter started, and it was a blast: DM let me take all the arrows out of quivers (with a Dex check, since technically MH can normally only take one object i.e. one arrow), which really neutered the goblins sniping us from ledges!

I haven't read all of this thread yet, but a synergy I enjoyed discovering was that Mage Hand says you move it 30 feet each time you use it, and as an AT you can use it twice per round if you use your Action and Cunning Action - so it's faster than other Mage Hands, too.

[Lyracian]

So my thinking about hideous laughter is that it seems about right, but probably depends on your DM/Game.
1) Probability of saving. Kind of the obvious one and a great way for you to spend an action and a spell slot to exchange your action for Zero enemy actions. On the other hand you can be

My experience is that you can recoup more actions than you invest, that you can come out ahead, but it isn't reliable and I would expect you to come out ahead given you are expending resources on it. Certainly it does scale up quite well though.
The other factor is comparing it to your attack. Sure they could save against the spell but your attack could also miss. Taking one opponent out for a round or two may be much better than an extra 25 points of damage. They might get attacks while they are down but that is where tactics come into play. You can take a Boss out for a few rounds while you deal with his minions or separate a pair of strong opponents while your allies focus on one of them. Even it it is only one round the advantage attacking a prone target you give may also be worth that expenditure of resources.

For me this is the spell to use with Magical Ambush. With Int 16 you have DC 15 anything with a +5 Wiz save has a 70% chance of failing the save due to disadvantage which is the same chance of hitting AC 20 with advantage and a +9 attack (Dex 20 + Prof). There are plenty of monsters that have less than +5 for a save.


I haven't read all of this thread yet, but a synergy I enjoyed discovering was that Mage Hand says you move it 30 feet each time you use it, and as an AT you can use it twice per round if you use your Action and Cunning Action - so it's faster than other Mage Hands, too.
True but hand does go pop if it is ever more than 30' away. You could move it from 30' behind you to 30' in front of you using your Action and Bonus action in combat but I am struggling to think of a situation where that might actually prove useful...

[Mr Adventurer]

True but hand does go pop if it is ever more than 30' away. You could move it from 30' behind you to 30' in front of you using your Action and Bonus action in combat but I am struggling to think of a situation where that might actually prove useful...

I used it when there were enemies in either side of us, with me in the middle. Another circumstance would be if you have a high Speed. But it's just great that you can use it twice to do two different things in two different places in one round.

[Lyracian]

I used it when there were enemies in either side of us, with me in the middle. Another circumstance would be if you have a high Speed. But it's just great that you can use it twice to do two different things in two different places in one round.
But what did you actually do with the hand? I struggle to think of scenarios where there are two things I would ever want to do during combat with the hand? Stealing stuff while others are fighting is great but what are you managing to do that would have been better than doing an action, probably an attack, your self?

[Mr Adventurer]

I described it in my post above: I emptied the quivers of two ledgetop archers of their arrows. This forced them to come into melee to engage us where most of our expertise was, rather than harrying us from range.

[nickl_2000]

But what did you actually do with the hand? I struggle to think of scenarios where there are two things I would ever want to do during combat with the hand? Stealing stuff while others are fighting is great but what are you managing to do that would have been better than doing an action, probably an attack, your self?

I don't know, pickpocketing a spellcasters component pouch away from them is pretty darn effective.

[Democratus]

I will second the suggestions of the Mobile feat.

Ignoring difficult terrain is a big deal. It means you can move through your allies' squares at no cost, go up and down stairs, run over furniture, etc. On top of that you get the "you can't attack me" power

- Run 80 feet every round unhindered by terrain or allies (usually through the front line, attack, then back behind the front line)
- Avoid Attacks of Opportunity
- Still allows attack + Booming Blade

Every Arcane Trickster I've seen in the last few years has started with the Mobile feat and been an absolute monster in combat.

[Evaar]

Also if you're running an AT/BS build getting hit by damage spells is not a bad thing; use absorb elements, upcast it to 4th+ level and add some extra D6s to your next melee attack. The last time I used my AT/BS in a game I was able to hit a crit after using absorb elements on a cone of cold at 6th level. 8D8 + 5 shadowblade + 6D8 booming blade + 12D6 sneak + 12D6 cold. It was an epic kill on an archmage.

That sounds like a cool moment but I would not recommend that people upcast Absorb Elements. Upcasting it is only adding 1d6 per spell level on a single attack against a single enemy.

Like, you could upcast Burning Hands to add 1d6 per spell level, and that can hit multiple targets. 2d6 extra damage is not worth a slot you could use to cast Hypnotic Pattern.

You basically hit the jackpot in your example. The fact that you can add the damage with a Reaction and still get your normal attack the following round increases the value a bit, but almost all of that damage you would've done anyway.

[Yora]

I just got an arcane trickster in my campaign. Any suggestions how I can set up situations where the player would see opportunities to use his special abilities.

[Evaar]

I just got an arcane trickster in my campaign. Any suggestions how I can set up situations where the player would see opportunities to use his special abilities.

Put something valuable out of reach, have the guards stand with their back to the object so they're facing anyone approaching.

This could be a diamond, sword, cell key, book, whatever. It could be a museum, blacksmith, prison, library, whatever. But that scenario is the first thing everyone imagines when they read about how Mage Hand works for Arcane Tricksters.

[MrStabby]

I just got an arcane trickster in my campaign. Any suggestions how I can set up situations where the player would see opportunities to use his special abilities.

What levels are you playing at?

[Desamir]

I will second the suggestions of the Mobile feat.

Ignoring difficult terrain is a big deal. It means you can move through your allies' squares at no cost, go up and down stairs, run over furniture, etc. On top of that you get the "you can't attack me" power

- Run 80 feet every round unhindered by terrain or allies (usually through the front line, attack, then back behind the front line)
- Avoid Attacks of Opportunity
- Still allows attack + Booming Blade

Every Arcane Trickster I've seen in the last few years has started with the Mobile feat and been an absolute monster in combat.

+1. I have it on my Arcane Trickster and it's a game changer. Mobile on a character that can Dash as a bonus action is incredible.

[Specter]

I just got an arcane trickster in my campaign. Any suggestions how I can set up situations where the player would see opportunities to use his special abilities.

Well, any spotted trap will be handled at least 30 feet away by him (if he's smart), so that's a whole exploration feature that could break some challenges.

Other than Mage Hand stuff, look at his spell selection and think how those spells could be used best.

[Milmoor]

@Specter, thanks for the guide, it really helped me in building my first D&D PC. Came from a different system, and was already GMing, but not playing yet. Rather different in what interests one in the rules.

Your leveling guide on Google drive is in the recycle bin. Could you please resurrect it?

[wookietek]

I'm running an AT right now in ToA, and having the mobile feat has made me all but untouchable. Combat is more fun than I expected.

There was one instance with Mage Hand where the DM pulled his Pythagoras crap out of his back pocket to disallow me from pulling something off a 30' shelf when I wanted to stand back out of trap range. He was right, by the way, I'm not complaining, but I haven't yet gotten to be real slick with the mage hand yet...

[Lyracian]

I don't know, pickpocketing a spellcasters component pouch away from them is pretty darn effective.
Maybe you face a lot of enemy spell casters? It is a fine use of a bonus action but I have not yet faces a pair of Wizards who were standing that close to each other I could pick pocket them both in the same round.


I described it in my post above: I emptied the quivers of two ledgetop archers of their arrows. This forced them to come into melee to engage us where most of our expertise was, rather than harrying us from range.
You did mention your DM was nice and let you empty an entire quiver with one use. Personally I would still rather use my action to attack one of them and then I can use the hand next round to empty the quiver on the other one. I guess that is down to personal preference though.

[nickl_2000]

Maybe you face a lot of enemy spell casters? It is a fine use of a bonus action but I have not yet faces a pair of Wizards who were standing that close to each other I could pick pocket them both in the same round.




Wizards aren't the only ones who use component pouches. I have had plenty of times where I've faced a Divine and Arcane caster in the same battle.

[Mr Adventurer]

Also Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, and any spellcasting enemy that doesn't also have a spell focus (and isn't excused material components)...

[Specter]

@Specter, thanks for the guide, it really helped me in building my first D&D PC. Came from a different system, and was already GMing, but not playing yet. Rather different in what interests one in the rules.

Your leveling guide on Google drive is in the recycle bin. Could you please resurrect it?

Done, brother.

[Milmoor]

Done, brother.

Thanks, I appreciate the tour through the levels.

[Milmoor]

Arcane Trickster with Level 1 Wizard Dip
This seems a valid option, as also stated in the opening post. I’m rather new to D&D, so I would like to confirm I did my homework correctly. I’m currently a level 3 rogue, and I chose Arcane Trickster as my archetype. Got the familiar as the any school of magic spell. I will keep things general and avoid further talk about my PC.

The AT level gives me three cantrips, three spells and a AT specific table for spell slots. There is no difference between spells known and the spells available for casting using my spell slots. There are rules for which type of spells I can choose/replace at certain levels.

I’m considering a level 1 Wizard dip. Since the AT class is all about flexibility, which this dip gives, this seems like a solid choice. If I do that I gain:

three cantrips
a spellbook with 6 lvl 1 spells (more can be added)
spellcasting ability stays the same
ritual casting
spellcasting focus
arcane recovery



Changes in magic use:

I will have spells known from my AT class, and spells prepared from my wizard class. I need my spellbook to change the latter.
My spell slots are from a combined MC table instead of the AT specific table and based on a calculated spell level.
The maximum spell level I know or I can prepare is depended on my level in the individual class.
The maximum spell level I can cast is depending on the spell slot used.
Upcasting is useful since my maximum spell slot level can at times be higher than my maximum known spell level
I can cast either known or prepared till I run out of spell slots.
I can cast the same spell multiple times, from either class, as long as I have spell slots
The cantrips scale on character level, which is the sum of the combined class levels



This will allow me to:

have more cantrips for more flexibility
do some upcasting since the MC table is better than the AC table
collect more level 1 spells in my spellbook, separate from the once I gain from levelling my rogue
this will give me a far larger level 1 arsenal of spells from any school, no changes at higher levels but for the upcasting possibility
ritual casting for the level 1 ritual spells in my spellbook, I could cast higher level wizard ritual spells from my spellbook, but they can’t be in my spell book (there is a feat for that…)
move the summoning of a new familiar to the wizard profession, either prepared or using rituals from my spellbook, this will allow me to choose a different any school of magic spell when I level my rogue class. This is nice, since I don’t have many any school choices.
use an arcane focus instead of a component pouch (if no costs and not consumed), which is mostly flavour
replenish a single level 1 spell slot in a short rest once a day using arcane recovery



All this adds flexibility and the upcasting will help a bit at later levels.

[edit]
Extra benefit: it also allows to cast Wizard spell scrolls. If higher than the current level, an Arcana check against the spell level is needed. More info here at page 60 of the basic rules (media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMDnDBasicRules_v0.1.pdf).

[Specter]

Arcane Trickster with Level 1 Wizard Dip
This seems a valid option, as also stated in the opening post. I’m rather new to D&D, so I would like to confirm I did my homework correctly. I’m currently a level 3 rogue, and I chose Arcane Trickster as my archetype. Got the familiar as the any school of magic spell. I will keep things general and avoid further talk about my PC.

The AT level gives me three cantrips, three spells and a AT specific table for spell slots. There is no difference between spells known and the spells available for casting using my spell slots. There are rules for which type of spells I can choose/replace at certain levels.

I’m considering a level 1 Wizard dip. Since the AT class is all about flexibility, which this dip gives, this seems like a solid choice. If I do that I gain:

three cantrips
a spellbook with 6 lvl 1 spells (more can be added)
spellcasting ability stays the same
ritual casting
spellcasting focus
arcane recovery



Changes in magic use:

I will have spells known from my AT class, and spells prepared from my wizard class. I need my spellbook to change the latter.
My spell slots are from a combined MC table instead of the AT specific table and based on a calculated spell level.
The maximum spell level I know or I can prepare is depended on my level in the individual class.
The maximum spell level I can cast is depending on the spell slot used.
Upcasting is useful since my maximum spell slot level can at times be higher than my maximum known spell level
I can cast either known or prepared till I run out of spell slots.
I can cast the same spell multiple times, from either class, as long as I have spell slots
The cantrips scale on character level, which is the sum of the combined class levels



This will allow me to:

have more cantrips for more flexibility
do some upcasting since the MC table is better than the AC table
collect more level 1 spells in my spellbook, separate from the once I gain from levelling my rogue
this will give me a far larger level 1 arsenal of spells from any school, no changes at higher levels but for the upcasting possibility
ritual casting for the level 1 ritual spells in my spellbook, I could cast higher level wizard ritual spells from my spellbook, but they can’t be in my spell book (there is a feat for that…)
move the summoning of a new familiar to the wizard profession, either prepared or using rituals from my spellbook, this will allow me to choose a different any school of magic spell when I level my rogue class. This is nice, since I don’t have many any school choices.
use an arcane focus instead of a component pouch (if no costs and not consumed), which is mostly flavour
replenish a single level 1 spell slot in a short rest once a day using arcane recovery



All this adds flexibility and the upcasting will help a bit at later levels.

All correct as far as I can tell. The main choice is when to take that level. I would particularly take it after level 5, because Uncanny Dodge is a big deal for me.

[Milmoor]

All correct as far as I can tell. The main choice is when to take that level. I would particularly take it after level 5, because Uncanny Dodge is a big deal for me.

/cheer
Thanks for the conformation. After level 5 AT is probably more optimal indeed, but that would mean I’d have to postpone my new toys. I’ll ask the GM if she allows Multi Classing (quite probably), and if she allows SCAG, since I currently lack either combat cantrip out of that book. That could change things.
But those are details which I can solve myself, I’m glad my summary was correct. +1 D&D 5E knowledge skill (which doesn’t work that way in 5E at all :) ).

[Desamir]

1ST-LEVEL SPELLS
At level 3, you get three of these, two from the enchantment or illusion schools and one from any school. Choose it wisely, because it can only be traded by Enchantment/Illusion spells later on.

FYI, this is no longer the case after PHB errata (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf).


Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher (p. 98). In the final sentence of this subsection, the closing phrase has changed to read as follows: “… unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic.”

[Mr Adventurer]

All correct as far as I can tell. The main choice is when to take that level. I would particularly take it after level 5, because Uncanny Dodge is a big deal for me.

Would they be able to use an arcane focus (from their Wizard class feature) for their Arcane Trickster spells?

[PhantomSoul]

Would they be able to use an arcane focus (from their Wizard class feature) for their Arcane Trickster spells?

Yes! The Arcane Trickster Spells are actually Wizard Spells (as per the Feature Description), so a Wizard's Spellcasting Focus Feature works!

[Milmoor]

Arcane Trickster with Level 1 Wizard Dip
<<long list of changes for a level 1 Wizard dip.>>
Extra benefit: it also allows to cast Wizard spell scrolls. If higher than the current level, an Arcana check against the spell level is needed. More info here at page 60 of the basic rules (media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMDnDBasicRules_v0.1.pdf).

[Mr Adventurer]

Does anything oppose the Arcane Tricksters' use of Mage Hand to pickpocket people ("You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.")? Is there even a check involved for success? (There's a check to see if it is noticed but I'm not concerned about that at this time.)

Can an Arcane Trickster use the normal function of Mage Hand to Use Object on objects worn or carried by another creature, such as its shoelaces or belt?


Yes! The Arcane Trickster Spells are actually Wizard Spells (as per the Feature Description), so a Wizard's Spellcasting Focus Feature works!

So this means the Arcane Trickster has no class spell list - since it uses Wizard spells? This is sometimes relevant in other contexts.

[Milmoor]

Related: one can open locks and disarm traps with the Mage hand. This seems hard to do without sight and hearing. So can one see/hear with the Mage Hand? If not, it has has a magic inner trap and lock sense? And if so, is it very near sighted or can one scout with it?

[Democratus]

Related: one can open locks and disarm traps with the Mage hand. This seems hard to do without sight and hearing. So can one see/hear with the Mage Hand? If not, it has has a magic inner trap and lock sense? And if so, is it very near sighted or can one scout with it?

We rule that you have to see what the mage hand is doing. It allows you to disarm a trap standing somewhere close enough that you have a view of what is going on.

[Threadweedle]

Loved this guide so much, just wondering what magic items would be suggested and if you would make any changes to the sample build of the high elf Eryon Ardenthas now that it has been a while since you created the google doc, like if you would still use phantom steed without the ability to ritually cast it and if tough would still be a good feat instead of any other like fey teleportation or alert or mobile or something else. Great guide anyway!

[Garokson]

You might want to add to sentinel and mirror image that attacking the mirror image actually triggers sentinel's reaction based melee attack and thus nets you an easy sneak attack

[Klorox]

You might want to add to sentinel and mirror image that attacking the mirror image actually triggers sentinel's reaction based melee attack and thus nets you an easy sneak attack

Does that really work? That’s a damn cool combo.

[Segev]

Does that really work? That’s a damn cool combo.


Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.


When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you

The triggering condition for Mirror Image is you being targeted with an attack. If the d20 roll aims it at an image, the actual attack is made against the image.

The (important part of the) triggering condition for Sentinel is that an attack is made against a target other than you. An image is a target other than you. This technically works and is very nasty!

[RogueJK]

Interesting. I'll have to keep that combo in mind. Not many Arcane Tricksters are going to be taking Sentinel, but could be handier on something like a Polearm Master/Sentinel Sorcadin or Eldritch Knight.

[Segev]

Interesting. I'll have to keep that combo in mind. Not many Arcane Tricksters are going to be taking Sentinel, but could be handier on something like a Polearm Master/Sentinel Sorcadin or Eldritch Knight.

It's something to be a little cautious with, strategically: if attacking you has a 3/4 chance of triggering an attack and hitting thin air, while attacking your allies has a 100% chance of triggering an attack but a higher chance of hitting the target, attacking your allies again becomes the more desirable action to take, which isn't necessarily what you want to have happen if you're using Sentinel to help be the party's tank.

[PhantomSoul]

It's something to be a little cautious with, strategically: if attacking you has a 3/4 chance of triggering an attack and hitting thin air, while attacking your allies has a 100% chance of triggering an attack but a higher chance of hitting the target, attacking your allies again becomes the more desirable action to take, which isn't necessarily what you want to have happen if you're using Sentinel to help be the party's tank.

On the bright (?) side, if it's against a single opponent, it lines up even better for deterrence. If they hit an image, you hit them; if they hit you, you uncanny dodge to reduce damage.

[Segev]

On the bright (?) side, if it's against a single opponent, it lines up even better for deterrence. If they hit an image, you hit them; if they hit you, you uncanny dodge to reduce damage.

Yeah, it's great if you're using it to 1vGroup something, rather than to play tank for your group.

[Milmoor]

[reaction on my post of a Wizard 1 dip for an AT]

All correct as far as I can tell. The main choice is when to take that level. I would particularly take it after level 5, because Uncanny Dodge is a big deal for me.
Got my level 1 Wizard, but finding it hard to stop:
- level 2 Bladesinger
- level 3 level 2 spells
- level 4 ASI/feat, extra cantrip
- level 5 level 3 spells
- level 6 extra attack, now with a cantrip option instead of an attack (/cheer Tasha)

But a level 6 dip is hardly a dip any more, that is multi classing.

By the way:
Booming Blade needs an 1sp+ weapon now, no more attacking using your component pouch instead of a weapon ;). Shadow Blade is therefore not allowed in RAW, but Jeremy Crawford tweeted he would allow it as DM himself.

If you go RAW to the letter, you can do an attack with Shadow Blade, an extra Booming Blade attack with a short sword, and bonus attack with Shadow Blade as a level 6 Bladesinger. Adding a single sneak attack in there somewhere as a rogue will give you lots of dice.

I didn't think of either of the above options. I did read too much Reddit and on this forum about the new Tasha book, Booming Blade and Bladesingers though.

[Milmoor]

We rule that you have to see what the mage hand is doing. It allows you to disarm a trap standing somewhere close enough that you have a view of what is going on.
Just thought of this: my familiar can do the looking thing for me.

[Naanomi]

Telekinetic Feat from TCoE is a fantastic option for arcane tricksters... no components to give you away, 30’ extra range... so much potential

[sayaijin]

Telekinetic Feat from TCoE is a fantastic option for arcane tricksters... no components to give you away, 30’ extra range... so much potential

I haven't read Tasha's yet, but the UA had a prerequisite for psi dice.

[Naanomi]

I haven't read Tasha's yet, but the UA had a prerequisite for psi dice.
None that I see in the book, they dropped the wild talent feat Gate for telekinetic and telepathic

[sayaijin]

None that I see in the book, they dropped the wild talent feat Gate for telekinetic and telepathic

Then yeah, that is pretty sweet. Wish I could convince my DM to increase the carrying capacity of the mage hand if I take that feat because it can now push or pull very large creatures.

[saucerhead]

Telekinetic Feat from TCoE is a fantastic option for arcane tricksters... no components to give you away, 30’ extra range... so much potential

I like it, but I would have liked it more if it clearly said you can shove one creature you can see within range of you. It is a small thing, but the current wording doesn't give you the extra 30ft for the shove.

[Naanomi]

I like it, but I would have liked it more if it clearly said you can shove one creature you can see within range of you. It is a small thing, but the current wording doesn't give you the extra 30ft for the shove.
Eh, rogues have plenty of uses for their bonus action; I was thinking more out of combat utility. Removing the components and increasing the range lets this ability be used in social situations, while hidden from a fair distance, etc...

[Mr Adventurer]

Eh, rogues have plenty of uses for their bonus action; I was thinking more out of combat utility. Removing the components and increasing the range lets this ability be used in social situations, while hidden from a fair distance, etc...

Yes, absolutely, I was excited for this as well for my own AT. The two big problems with the Mage Hand are how noticeable it is and the action cost to get it started. This feat addresses the first issue and adds some very, very nice gravy on top, lovely as a half feat. I'm going to take it as my Rogue 10 ASI.

As for the other issue - well, if you can afford ANOTHER feat you can get Metamagic Adept to pick up Quicken for 1/day pinch-point... or take that 6-level multiclass into Bladesinger so you can pop it off while attacking. (I suppose Fighter 2 will also get you Action Surge as another way to do it all 1/rest.)

Using this feat could give some very cool functionality to anyone, regardless of whether they are an AT.

[Gignere]

Yes, absolutely, I was excited for this as well for my own AT. The two big problems with the Mage Hand are how noticeable it is and the action cost to get it started. This feat addresses the first issue and adds some very, very nice gravy on top, lovely as a half feat. I'm going to take it as my Rogue 10 ASI.

As for the other issue - well, if you can afford ANOTHER feat you can get Metamagic Adept to pick up Quicken for 1/day pinch-point... or take that 6-level multiclass into Bladesinger so you can pop it off while attacking. (I suppose Fighter 2 will also get you Action Surge as another way to do it all 1/rest.)

Using this feat could give some very cool functionality to anyone, regardless of whether they are an AT.

I think it’s better to get the metamagic feat and grab subtle for the AT. Now you can do basically everything that the telekinetic feat can except the bonus action push sure it’s limited 2 x but it’s fine.

[Mr Adventurer]

I think it’s better to get the metamagic feat and grab subtle for the AT. Now you can do basically everything that the telekinetic feat can except the bonus action push sure it’s limited 2 x but it’s fine.

You also lose out on the increased range in the spell, which is a force multiplier on the AT. Looks like an inferior choice to me...

[Segev]

I think it’s better to get the metamagic feat and grab subtle for the AT. Now you can do basically everything that the telekinetic feat can except the bonus action push sure it’s limited 2 x but it’s fine.

It’s limited to twice and you don’t really get anything else out of it over what Telekinetic gives you. A second metamagic doesn’t help much if you’re using both SP on subtle.

[Gignere]

It’s limited to twice and you don’t really get anything else out of it over what Telekinetic gives you. A second metamagic doesn’t help much if you’re using both SP on subtle.

The problem with telekinetic feat is that the AT already can make the hand invisible, all you are gaining is an extra 30 feet of range.
The bonus action shove is neat but the AT already has bonus action clog as is.

I think I prefer to have subtle metamagic and one other metamagic because chances are you might not need subtle mage hand every day and/or encounter. If your other metamagic is extend it might not even conflict with subtle all that much. Extend mage armor and gift of alacrity and wake up with full spell slots and full use of subtle and still have two 8 hour buffs.

For the days you need the spell points for subtle you just won’t have extend.

[Segev]

The problem with telekinetic feat is that the AT already can make the hand invisible, all you are gaining is an extra 30 feet of range.
The bonus action shove is neat but the AT already has bonus action clog as is.

I think I prefer to have subtle metamagic and one other metamagic because chances are you might not need subtle mage hand every day and/or encounter. If your other metamagic is extend it might not even conflict with subtle all that much. Extend mage armor and gift of alacrity and wake up with full spell slots and full use of subtle and still have two 8 hour buffs.

For the days you need the spell points for subtle you just won’t have extend.
If your priority is extend, then that’s a good plan.

I will point out that the AT gives invisible mage hand and also ability to do a few things you cannot normally do with the spell. The feat gives invisible and component-less mage hand, and thirty extra feet of range if you already know it.

If you have both, you gain 30 extra feet you wouldn’t have, the ability to use more skills with your mage hand, and free subtle casting of it.

The only actual overlap is the invisibility of the mage hand. Even knowledge of the cantrip isn’t fully overlapped since the feat only increases the range if you know the cantrip from another source.

[Naanomi]

The problem with telekinetic feat is that the AT already can make the hand invisible, all you are gaining is an extra 30 feet of range.
The bonus action shove is neat but the AT already has bonus action clog as is.
It probably depends on how much non-combat you are running into... frankly if I can cast it without any components, and it is invisible, and has no resource cost; I would want to be present at *every* non-combat situation just to have it ready. Relying on Subtle just... isn't sufficient for my imagined use of it

[Segev]

It probably depends on how much non-combat you are running into... frankly if I can cast it without any components, and it is invisible, and has no resource cost; I would want to be present at *every* non-combat situation just to have it ready. Relying on Subtle just... isn't sufficient for my imagined use of it

To be fair, some of this comes down to just how important "no components" is to avoiding making your arcane trickster stand out. This is similar to the discussion over Subtle illusions and enchantments. An Arcane Trickster might, if she has to cast in full sight, be noticed to be "casting a spell," but what spell she's casting is harder to identify (if you use XGE, I think it costs a reaction, too). Remember, too, that an Arcane Trickster is a rogue; she has Cunning Action and likely a good Stealth bonus. She could Hide as a bonus action and then cast the spell, or she could already be hidden. Casting spells that don't directly target anybody doesn't automatically break Stealth.

So Telekinetic is hardly essential for an Arcane Trickster to subtly and stealthily use her invisible mage hand.

What Telekinetic gives to her is the ability to do it in plain sight without anybody knowing she's the one who did it, and extra range. It gives the ability to essentially have it up all the time, because it's an act of mental effort and the usual "People will get annoyed if you keep chanting every few minutes" arguments don't apply.

A character who isn't an Arcane Trickster obviously gets more out of Telekinetic in the sense that it opens up the invisible mage hand to them when they wouldn't have it otherwise. It's worth noting that any spellcaster who has both the feat and the cantrip gets the extra range. Essentially, if you have the Telekinetic feat, it's better to think of having mage hand from another source as a +30 ft. to Telekinetic, rather than Telekinetic enhancing the mage hand cantrip.

So an Arcane Trickster is absolutely getting the least out of Telekinetic of anybody who picks up the feat. Those without mage hand get the feat's listed benefits, including the cantrip with improved casting and 2/3 of the Arcane Trickster's special benefit to it. Those with mage hand get a range extension and it turning invisible. Arcane Tricksters are really only getting the range extension and the auto-subtle. (Well, there's also the shove power, which I remain disappointed isn't a push or a pull, or an omni-directional move, but that's another topic.)

An Arcane Trickster has the least reason to take the feat. But it is still very useful to her if she does.

[leugren]

An Arcane Trickster has the least reason to take the feat.


I disagree. This entirely ignores the fact that an Arcane Trickster can do far more with their mage hand than a character of any other class. They can use it to grant themselves advantage on attacks, they can use it to perform Sleight of Hand checks, pick locks, etc. Doubling the range of the mage hand and removing its component requirements therefore proves to be far more useful to an Arcane Trickster than to a character of any other class.

[saucerhead]

Don't forget it is a half feat too. (+1 to Int, Wis or Chr)
Telekinetic is better for an AT than keen mind or even observant.

[Segev]

Don't forget it is a half feat too. (+1 to Int, Wis or Chr)
Telekinetic is better for an AT than keen mind or even observant.

Keen Mind is mostly useful for those who do a lot of illusion magic, helping them to precisely replicate things and keep track of things. Arcane Tricksters CAN focus on illusion, so it could be good for them...but I do think Observant will be better (getting passive perception to the high teens or even low 20s is pretty darned good for a trapfinder and secret door seeker), and can also see Telekinetic being at least as useful...for an Arcane Trickster who wants what it gives.

[HafJoe]

Would Yuant-Ti work well for this as well?

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Dead thread.